How many incarnations?

[Sena]

This passage from The Seth Material, Chapter 12, gives a clue as to how many incarnations each of us is likely to have:

"Seth Class, May 20, 1969:

"You must understand the nature of reality before you can manipulate within it intelligently and well. In this environment and in physical reality, you are learning -- you are supposed to be learning -- that your thoughts have reality, and that you create the reality that you know.

When you leave this dimension, then you concentrate upon the knowledge that you have gained. If you still do not realize that you create the reality that you know, then you return and again you learn to manipulate and again and again you see the results of your own inner reality as you meet it objectified.

You teach yourself the lesson until you have learned it. And when you have learned it, then you have begun to learn how to handle the consciousness that is yours intelligently and well.""

http://www.starseeds.net/group/the-seth-jane-roberts-exploration-group?xg_source=activity

I have emphasized one sentence in bold type. How I understand this is that once we fully realize that we create the reality that we know, there will be no need for any further incarnations as a human. The purpose of incarnating as a human is over as the process of learning this particular lesson is over. It is now 33 years since Jane Roberts died, and we have no evidence that she has reincarnated.

This is from Seth Speaks, p.153:

"Those who choose to leave this system, whose reincarnational cycles are finished, have many more decisions to make."

In this context I would like to mention the book "Life in the World Unseen" by Anthony Borgia, who claimed to have channeled a deceased Catholic priest Monsignor Hugh Benson. A church in the afterlife is described attended by devout Catholics. I assume that these people would have to reincarnate as they have not learned that they create their own reality. They believe that their reality is created by a transcendent God above.

The book is available online here:
http://anthony3741.tripod.com/lifeintheworldunseen/id6.html

The free pdf is here:
http://www.thegreatquestion.com/books/LIFE_IN_THE_WORLD_UNSEEN.pdf

[Deb]

If you still do not realize that you create the reality that you know, then you return and again you learn to manipulate and again and again you see the results of your own inner reality as you meet it objectified.

I know I make my own reality. It's just a matter of becoming better at using that knowledge. Unfortunately I may have some more incarnating to do. But then there is this (I guess I'm not alone):

"She remembered how, in early sessions, Seth had talked about a minimum of three reincarnational existences for most entities — and how "scandalized" she'd been later when she began to realize that Seth had lived many lives."
—SS Chapter 22: Session 589, August 4, 1971

"Some, finished with reincarnation, may choose to reenter the cycle acting as teachers, and in such cases some recognition of higher identity is always present. Now there is an in-between stage of relative indecision, a midplane of existence; a rest area, comparatively speaking, and it is from this area that most communication from relatives occurs. This is usually the level that is visited by the living in projections from the dream state."
—SS Chapter 11: Session 540, July 6, 1970

It is now 33 years since Jane Roberts died, and we have no evidence that she has reincarnated.

I know Seth said somewhere that Jane and Rob would not be reincarnating after this last existence, but as hard as I searched I couldn't find the quote. I can't remember which book, either. I did find this, however:

Ouija board, session 6 (TES1), italics are Rob's questions to Seth.

(After thinking a bit, I told Jane I had the thought that Ruburt was once Joseph.)
"Part of the same entity, or counterpart?"
(I think part of the same entity.)
True.
(Seth, what kind of an arrangement would that be?)
"Excellent. High stage of cooperation. Near end of reincarnation cycle."
—TES1 Session 6 December 11, 1963

Anthony Borgia... channeled a deceased Catholic priest Monsignor Hugh Benson. A church in the afterlife is described attended by devout Catholics. I assume that these people would have to reincarnate as they have not learned that they create their own reality. They believe that their reality is created by a transcendent God above.

Either that, or Borgia added that himself for his own ulterior motives.

[Michael Sternbach]

But this makes me wonder what is meant exactly by understanding that we create our own reality. Many have some intellect understanding of that, but a full understanding would mean having mastered the art of physical manifestation, IMO. Supposedly, only a powerful magician or avatar like Jesus could exemplify this.

This is not to say that I believe that such a level of control over the physical must necessarily be achieved for one to end one's reincarnational cycle. I am just thinking aloud and asking questions.

[Counterpart]

I know Seth said somewhere that Jane and Rob would not be reincarnating after this last existence, but as hard as I searched I couldn't find the quote. I can't remember which book, either.

I will help you. This is from The Unknown Reality, Volume 2 (SESSION 721):
"Now: In your terms only, [neither of you] ... has a reincarnational future. Give us a
moment ... You have accepted this as your breaking-off point. In other terms there
are three future lives, but your greater intents, as of now, break you off from this
system of reality, and you have already journeyed, both of you, into another; and
from that other reality I speak. In those terms I am a part of both of your realities.
Think of this in terms of other information given this evening, and you may see what
I mean."

[Sena]

But this makes me wonder what is meant exactly by understanding that we create our own reality. Many have some intellect understanding of that, but a full understanding would mean having mastered the art of physical manifestation, IMO. Supposedly, only a powerful magician or avatar like Jesus could exemplify this.

This is not to say that I believe that such a level of control over the physical must necessarily be achieved for one to end one's reincarnational cycle. I am just thinking aloud and asking questions.

Michael, this is a good question. We need to recall that Jane Roberts created a reality of crippling arthritis and an apparently premature death. Evangelical Christians might say that if she had faith in Christ she would have been healed.
Creating one's own reality according to Seth as I understand it does not mean leading a trouble-free life. It means fulfilling the purposes for which one's Entity has sent one to Earth.
I think Lynda Madden Dahl's interpretation of Seth in which she says that it is possible to "Live a safe Universe" is useful. How I understand this is that physical reality is malleable and that unexpected good things could happen if one is honestly trying to live out one's purpose in life.

[Counterpart]

It means fulfilling the purposes for which one's Entity has sent one to Earth.

physical reality is malleable and that unexpected good things could happen if one is honestly trying to live out one's purpose in life.

Very good and precise statements! I agree absolutely.

[Michael Sternbach]

But this makes me wonder what is meant exactly by understanding that we create our own reality. Many have some intellect understanding of that, but a full understanding would mean having mastered the art of physical manifestation, IMO. Supposedly, only a powerful magician or avatar like Jesus could exemplify this.

This is not to say that I believe that such a level of control over the physical must necessarily be achieved for one to end one's reincarnational cycle. I am just thinking aloud and asking questions.

Michael, this is a good question. We need to recall that Jane Roberts created a reality of crippling arthritis and an apparently premature death. Evangelical Christians might say that if she had faith in Christ she would have been healed.
Creating one's own reality according to Seth as I understand it does not mean leading a trouble-free life. It means fulfilling the purposes for which one's Entity has sent one to Earth.
I think Lynda Madden Dahl's interpretation of Seth in which she says that it is possible to "Live a safe Universe" is useful. How I understand this is that physical reality is malleable and that unexpected good things could happen if one is honestly trying to live out one's purpose in life.

I certainly agree, but what we are talking about is not the purpose of a particular incarnation, but of a whole cycle of incarnations. Which, if I read Seth right, is to master the creation of reality from thought and emotion.

Jane was not able to implement Seth's teachings in order to heal her own body. As we learn from Robert's notes in Value Fulfillment, she did try and was repeatedly frustrated with the results.

Any thoughts welcome.

[Counterpart]

what we are talking about is not the purpose of a particular incarnation, but of a whole cycle of incarnations. Which, if I read Seth right, is to master the creation of reality from thought and emotion.

Good point! I don't remember Seth' statements on the purpose for the whole cycle, but those past lives I've recalled are definitely united with greater, more general purposes, while each of those lives had its own purposes. But I wouldn't say that the main purpose for the whole cycle is as general as "to master the creation of reality from thought and emotion" (I'd rather call it one of the main skills for achieving the purposes). The purposes for the "greater game" are much more specific, at least in my case. So, Jane as an entity could achieve her own purposes for the cycle.
I would also add that the "power point of now", per Seth (and I agree absolutely), can change everything, and being in the spiritually awakened state we can generate a great impulse for leaving this plane for another one. I think the quotation from Seth I've given just above is quite appropriate here too:

From The Unknown Reality, Volume 2 (SESSION 721):
"Now: In your terms only, [neither of you] ... has a reincarnational future. Give us a
moment ... You have accepted this as your breaking-off point. In other terms there
are three future lives, but your greater intents, as of now, break you off from this
system of reality, and you have already journeyed, both of you, into another; and
from that other reality I speak. In those terms I am a part of both of your realities."

[Sena]

Jane was not able to implement Seth's teachings in order to heal her own body. As we learn from Robert's notes in Value Fulfillment, she did try and was repeatedly frustrated with the results.

Michael, I need to read Value Fulfillment again to understand this better. I am not sure that Jane was "not able" to implement Seth's teachings in that way. I recall that Seth may have told her to avoid medical care altogether, but Jane did go into hospital several times spending money that they could ill afford. I don't think we can say that she made the wrong decisions by going into hospital. Seth is not infallible.
We are told that Jane does not need to incarnate as a human again, implying that she had fully learnt the lesson of being able to create her own reality.

[Sena]

As we learn from Robert's notes in Value Fulfillment, she did try and was repeatedly frustrated with the results.

I found this quote in Value Fulfillment:

"I should add that I don't think Jane has started to "set.....aside" the medical interpretation regarding her "arthritis situation" as Seth suggested she might do when he came through on April 12."

It may be significant that Seth gave a "suggestion" not a directive, implying that he himself was not certain about the situation.

[Michael Sternbach]

what we are talking about is not the purpose of a particular incarnation, but of a whole cycle of incarnations. Which, if I read Seth right, is to master the creation of reality from thought and emotion.

Good point! I don't remember Seth' statements on the purpose for the whole cycle, but those past lives I've recalled are definitely united with greater, more general purposes, while each of those lives had its own purposes. But I wouldn't say that the main purpose for the whole cycle is as general as "to master the creation of reality from thought and emotion" (I'd rather call it one of the main skills for achieving the purposes). The purposes for the "greater game" are much more specific, at least in my case. So, Jane as an entity could achieve her own purposes for the cycle.

As we saw, according to Seth, the purpose is learning that we are the creators of our reality. But this would have to be expressed in a way specific to the entity. So I imagine that this might look quite different from one individual to another.

[Counterpart]

As we saw, according to Seth, the purpose is learning that we are the creators of our reality. But this would have to be expressed in a way specific to the entity. So I imagine that this might look quite different from one individual to another.

I can agree with this as some general rule. But our creativity is limitless and it's quite difficult to squeeze it in any frame. I recall that in some point of "the greater game" I and my group (spiritual "relatives", including the closest ones, or "counterparts") knew very well that we could create our reality with our thoughts and intentions, and we really could. Then we decided to "forget" this so that the game could take place, with some optimal balance between knowing and unknowing. So, we had "mastered the creation of reality from thought and emotion" and then intentionally "unmastered" it, and the reason for this was that "the show must go on"
Giving this example, I want to tell that mastering the art of creating reality through some conscious activity is not always the criterion for leaving this plane. The units of consciousness are unpredictable and may have a great variety of purposes as well as skills to be mastered.

[Michael Sternbach]

As we saw, according to Seth, the purpose is learning that we are the creators of our reality. But this would have to be expressed in a way specific to the entity. So I imagine that this might look quite different from one individual to another.

I can agree with this as some general rule. But our creativity is limitless and it's quite difficult to squeeze it in any frame. I recall that in some point of "the greater game" I and my group (spiritual "relatives", including the closest ones, or "counterparts") knew very well that we could create our reality with our thoughts and intentions, and we really could. Then we decided to "forget" this so that the game could take place, with some optimal balance between knowing and unknowing. So, we had "mastered the creation of reality from thought and emotion" and then intentionally "unmastered" it, and the reason for this was that "the show must go on"
Giving this example, I want to tell that mastering the art of creating reality through some conscious activity is not always the criterion for leaving this plane. The units of consciousness are unpredictable and may have a great variety of purposes as well as skills to be mastered.

Once you have mastered those skills, wouldn't the game go on anyway, just on "the next winding of the spiral of self-evolution"?

Why would the self have to or want to play hide and seek with itself?

[sethspeaks]

I think we can not want Jane to behave like Christ.
Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts - Frank was perfect?
Michelangelo ended reincarnations - was he perfect?
Jesus ended the reincarnations, but his life was not the life of Christ.
John the Baptist ended reincarnations - was he perfect?
The new Christ will be the murder St. Paul.
It is not perfection.

[Counterpart]

Once you have mastered those skills, just on "the next winding of the spiral of self-evolution"?
Why would the self have to or want to play hide and seek with itself?

Good questions! Seth often talks about experiments with consciousness. I'm sure that this "hide and seek" (or "forget and remember") is a kind of such experiments, probing different aspects and abilities of consciousness. For example, I'm picking up one of the tasks from there: "How unconscious could the consciousness become and could it restore itself after reaching the bottom of unconsciousness?" And in a sense it is "the next winding of the spiral of self-evolution", because such experiments give valuable experience to our greater selves.

[Counterpart]

I think we can not want Jane to behave like Christ.

Wise statement!

Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts...

I think "ending reincarnations" is a relative thing. Seth had ended reincarnations while Jane (being "past Seth" in a sense) was still on our plane. I mean that the greater self projects itself into different planes, times, etc., and we all exist on different planes simultaneously. So, everybody who "ended his/her reincarnations", from the viewpoint of greater entity is still on our plane in the form of their counterparts.

[Sena]

Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts - Frank was perfect?

That's interesting. My impression of Frank Watts is that he was a very ordinary person.

[Michael Sternbach]

Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts - Frank was perfect?

That's interesting. My impression of Frank Watts is that he was a very ordinary person.

Right. Seth did not seem too enthusiastic about him.

[sethspeaks]

Everyone has an inner fulfillment in his life. That's the goal.
Seth is a personality who was familiar with the story of Christ. He knew that there had been a certain fulfillment of desires, but that everything was not fully understood. Seth is a celebrity who has tried to fully live his life. In one of his life he met Jane / Ruburt / and created a telepathically totally interconnected pair. I think it was a father-son relationship. Here they both became part of one entity. Then their paths were divided. Seth was already at the end of the reincarnation circle. The last Seth's birth was Frank Watts, an English teacher, because the pure truth was to be given in English - Seth's material.
Seth and Ruburt were the perfect pair of absolutely telepathically linked personalities, one of whom was outside the reincarnation circle and one in it. Jane certainly left the reincarnation circle after death too. After handing over several thousand pages of Seth's truth, when she saw little understanding of it, she decided it was time to leave. The task was fulfilled.

[Michael Sternbach]

Once you have mastered those skills, wouldn't the game go on anyway, on "the next winding of the spiral of self-evolution"?
Why would the self have to or want to play hide and seek with itself?

Good questions! Seth often talks about experiments with consciousness. I'm sure that this "hide and seek" (or "forget and remember") is a kind of such experiments, probing different aspects and abilities of consciousness. For example, I'm picking up one of the tasks from there: "How unconscious could the consciousness become and could it restore itself after reaching the bottom of unconsciousness?" And in a sense it is "the next winding of the spiral of self-evolution", because such experiments give valuable experience to our greater selves.

The way we forget what has come before every time we reincarnate, yet all our life experiences contribute to the knowledge of the entity.

[Michael Sternbach]

Everyone has an inner fulfillment in his life. That's the goal.
Seth is a personality who was familiar with the story of Christ. He knew that there had been a certain fulfillment of desires, but that everything was not fully understood. Seth is a celebrity who has tried to fully live his life. In one of his life he met Jane / Ruburt / and created a telepathically totally interconnected pair. I think it was a father-son relationship. Here they both became part of one entity. Then their paths were divided. Seth was already at the end of the reincarnation circle. The last Seth's birth was Frank Watts, an English teacher, because the pure truth was to be given in English - Seth's material.
Seth and Ruburt were the perfect pair of absolutely telepathically linked personalities, one of whom was outside the reincarnation circle and one in it. Jane certainly left the reincarnation circle after death too. After handing over several thousand pages of Seth's truth, when she saw little understanding of it, she decided it was time to leave. The task was fulfilled.

So Seth and Jane were not aspects of the same entity originally, but became so by "fusing" with each other in a certain lifetime? That's really interesting.

Could you tell me where Seth talks about this, please?

[LarryH]

Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts - Frank was perfect?

Frank Watts is simply one of countless reincarnations of Seth and should not be considered the one that "ended" his reincarnations. It is simply one that in our time-based viewpoint is "recent". From Seth's viewpoint, the incarnation that he considers to be his "last" may be one that occurred 3,000 years ago. His "first" from his viewpoint may be in our future. He did say that in Jane's terms this would be her last incarnation, but in other terms there would be three more (meaning in our future, but in  terms of development and lessons possibly "preceding" the 20th century incarnation?).

[Michael Sternbach]

 

This is the land of confusion... 

[Sena]

Seth ended reincarnations as Frank Watts - Frank was perfect?

That's interesting. My impression of Frank Watts is that he was a very ordinary person.

Right. Seth did not seem too enthusiastic about him.

Michael, my point is that one does not have to be "special" to have completed one's cycle of incarnations.

[Counterpart]

In one of his life he met Jane / Ruburt / and created a telepathically totally interconnected pair. I think it was a father-son relationship. Here they both became part of one entity. Then their paths were divided.

Could you please find what Seth had said on this combining/dividing?  When delivering a kind of regressive therapy I've run into several cases when people (while re-experiencing their particular past lives)  felt that they were not just themselves but telepathically connected to other personalities who helped them in carrying out their missions for those lifetimes. But in all such cases the connected personalities have belonged to the same spiritual "root" originally, and the alliances were quite natural. So, I'm sure that Jane and Seth always (meaning "timeless") belonged to the same greater entity. They could divide, combine and then divide again as they wished, but their connection is timeless and indelible.

[Deb]

Could you please find what Seth had said on this combining/dividing?

@sethspeaks I'd love to know more about this as well. I've been all over the search engine at sethtalks and have not been able to come up with anything, although I did find some interesting tidbits such as the quote below. As the search engine does not contain all of the Seth books at this point, it may well be in a book not yet cataloged.

"When he spoke through Jane for the first time in Session 4 on December 8, 1964, Seth not only gave us his own entity name—Seth, of course—but those for Jane and me: Ruburt and Joseph. He was quite amused that Jane didn't particularly like the name Ruburt. [...] Yet Ruburt and Seth met on certain common grounds that were to be developed in depth over the years. [...] I'm sure that Jane and Seth, those two parts of our triumvirate, are relatively involved in their afterdeath challenges, each from her and his nonphysical viewpoint." —PersonalSessions1 Introduction By Rob Butts

[sethspeaks]

Looking for it is very bad.
Sample - session 4

("Can Jane's poems be likened to experiences or conclusions on her part of past events, lives, or dreams?")
     Some are. Many memories, say of a room whose door once opened is now closed. But the soul has peepholes. She cannot see but she sees. Once she saw too well. She saw the future but she could only live in the past. Now she seeks release from the present, but she must now work hard for what once came easily. Talents must be polished, now or later.
("Why must talents be polished now or later?")
What is cannot stay or grow less, but grow to fruition.
("Is all of this Jane's subconscious talking?")
     Subconscious is a corridor. What difference does it make which door you travel through? Notwithstanding I can speak through her if I so choose. Once she spoke through me. You can't see the joke, of course. Ha.
("When did you speak through Jane?")
     Ago century, seance. She was medium reaching me for you. I came through, too.
("Can you give us the location of that seance?")
No, later. You always want to know it all at once.

[LenKop]

How is creativity mastered?

By definition, creativity springs forth constantly anew. I think our beliefs regarding the physical plane are highly distorted. This life is as important as any other, and I highly doubt that some 'greater self' has thrown us out here to learn some things, just to go back once the lesson is over.

We must be careful interpreting anything Seth says that has the caveat 'in your terms...', because, as our beliefs can be unique, then my terms might just be different from your terms. And Seth uses 'in your terms..' very often.

Ideas of cycles seem to be just that...ideas. Perhaps these 'cycles' are just comfortable beliefs we keep to try to understand life.

How do reincarnational cycles relate to the present being the point of power?

Maybe Jane didn't try hard enough to implement Seth's material. If she did, then she would have 'healed', would she not? And I don't mean that in any way disrespectfully. Her 'sinful self' beliefs were very powerful. I also think that being the channel might have made the lessons less imposing. Robert was taking dictation, effectively conversing with this wise being every few days or so. How cool would that have been? But Jane came out of trance barely remembering snippets of text, and then having to read it after. I know she had inner experiences, but Robert had a direct line of conscious communication with Seth, being able to 'pick his brain' so to speak. Maybe that played a part in his longer term physical life, helping him face his beliefs in an easier way, while Jane struggled.

Or, on the other hand, maybe she mastered this life, and we are here thinking that here 'sickness' cut her life short, when really she did all that she needed to in this physical life.

Len

[Deb]

This is from the Introduction in The Personal Sessions 1, from Rob homself:

"Reading these private sessions, one can legitimately ask: "Well, if Jane Roberts was so smart and Seth was so great with all of that personal stuff, why did she come down with the symptoms to begin with? Why couldn't he cure her, or at least help her?" My answer right here is that those questions were and still are answered to the best of the abilities of Jane, Seth, and myself in these private sessions, even while I keep in mind Frank Watts's references to Jane's "Timidity has roots of rage." [...] Part of the answer, as I've already noted, is that because of her strong fears from early childhood on, Jane did not *allow *Seth to tell us all he could have. [...] But again and again I felt, I knew, that reincarnational factors were involved, concerning not only Jane, Seth, and me, but a number of other "past" personalities and influences from any of the three of us, and in various camouflage time frames. And what about that influence from the "future," since Seth maintained that all is now?"
—TPS1 Introduction By Rob Butts

[sethspeaks]

Session 54

There is no invasion involved in these sessions, as I have told you often. I have promised to give you more material dealing with the psychic construction of the entity, and its relationship to its fragments. I could not tell you in the beginning in so many words that Ruburt is myself, because you would have leaped to the conclusion that I was Ruburt's subconscious mind, and this is not so.
When you understand the construction of entities, then you will understand how this can be so. Ruburt is not myself now, in his present life; he is nevertheless an extension and materialization of the Seth that I was at one time.
Nothing remains unchanging, personalities and entities least of all. You are still thinking in terms of concrete things. You cannot stop an entity or a personality in time, as you would like to do. I am Seth today. I keep my continuity but nevertheless I change, and offshoots like currents explode into being.
As an idea changes, so do entities change while still retaining individuality and durability. But you cannot set up imaginary barriers, and stop or freeze my. identity, nor for that matter your own.
Ruburt was myself, Seth, many centuries ago, but he grew, evolved and expanded in terms of a particular, personal set of value fulfillments. He is now an actual gestalt, a personality that was one of the probable personalities into which Seth could grow. I represent another. I am another.
I have mentioned to you that endless personalities, in terms of value fulfillment, exist inherent in each of your physical atoms, molecules and smaller particles. So, also, each entity contains within itself almost endless possibilities in terms of value fulfillment.
As the physical atoms and molecules combine to form cells, and the cells to form physical organs, and as they do not lose their individuality in so doing, and as the atoms and molecules themselves actually gain and share in higher perceptions because of this gestalt, so do the basic components or fragments of an entity constantly form new and varied personalities; and these in turn form entities of their own.
I realize that this is somewhat difficult, but when you reread the last two sessions you will understand this material completely. Ruburt is now the result of the Seth that I once was, for I have changed since then. Ruburt represents, and is, a personality formed by that Seth which was myself, by focusing upon and using a peculiar set of attributes and abilities. To make it simpler, perhaps, we split, this being necessary always so that various possibilities can be brought into action.
Ruburt has changed since then, and so have I. And yet we are bounc together, and no invasion occurs because in one way of speaking our psychic territory is the same. I will go into the construction of entities later. My own emotional feeling, you see, goes outward, which is away from Ruburt often, since basically we are tempted to think of ourselves as one, though actually our roots are merely the same.

[sethspeaks]

Session 9

("What is the personal significance of the drawing of the old woman I am now working on, in egg tempera?"
(Jane dictates.) The old woman was the mother. The drawing represents a synthesis of the knowledge that you learned during that personality. The knowledge of the mother lingers in the mental genes, and the memory of the flesh still occurs in your physical genes. That which is, is never blotted out. Another drawing of a woman and a baby also represents you as a young mother with a child.
Neither of you have a need for children in your present personalities. You are almost finished with incarnations on the earth, so much so that the physical bodies will return completely and unfragmented upon your physical death. This is always the case in the final earth life. The physical property is left behind, no portion of it being carried on that plane through children.
You are able to think in terms of immortality through your work, rather than through physical offspring, simply because your entity has known itself in terms of the flesh. Therefore you are no longer bound or drawn to it in that fashion. This is not to say that psychic love of earthly phenomenon is not with you. It is and will be. Even on other planes the sensual nature and appreciation of the earthly habitat is maintained.

[Sena]

Maybe Jane didn't try hard enough to implement Seth's material. If she did, then she would have 'healed', would she not?

Len, I think Seth's teachings on illness are quite complex, so I have to disagree with what you have writen here. I don't have a copy of "The Way Towards Health", but this is an extract from that book:

".... each individual also has many options open. Everyone who feels broken-hearted does not necessarily die of heart failure for example. The subject of health cannot be considered in an isolated fashion ... each person will try to fulfil their own unique abilities, and to 'fill out' the experience of life as fully as possible."

https://existentialmedicine.wordpress.com/extract-from-%E2%80%98the-way-toward-health%E2%80%99-a-seth-book-by-jane-roberts/

Or, on the other hand, maybe she mastered this life, and we are here thinking that here 'sickness' cut her life short, when really she did all that she needed to in this physical life.

I agree with this part of your post. The following is also from The Way Towards Health:

"The desire to die is considered cowardly, even evil, by some religions – and yet behind that desire lies all of the vitality of the will to life, which may already be seeking new avenues of expression and meaning."

[LenKop]

Thanks for the reply Sena.

And my post has both sides of the story to highlight how we, especially Seth readers when it comes to Jane's health, place our beliefs upon others, when really don't know the full story.

Len

[Deb]

In one of his life he met Jane / Ruburt / and created a telepathically totally interconnected pair. I think it was a father-son relationship. Here they both became part of one entity. Then their paths were divided.

actually our roots are merely the same.

@sethspeaks, thanks for putting up the extra quotes about Seth and Jane's 'family' relationship, I understand how difficult it is to find certain information with there being so many of the books. And the search engine at sethtalks, while being an amazing new resource, doesn't have all the books yet.

But I still don't understand how Seth/Jane met and then 'became' part of an entity. From what I've read to date, it seems to me Seth and Jane have always been a part of the same entity and have crossed paths in their incarnations more than once. It goes back to that idea that we often incarnate with the same consciousnesses, taking on different roles each time.

That quote from Session 54:

I realize that this is somewhat difficult, but when you reread the last two sessions you will understand this material completely. Ruburt is now the result of the Seth that I once was, for I have changed since then. Ruburt represents, and is, a personality formed by that Seth which was myself, by focusing upon and using a peculiar set of attributes and abilities. To make it simpler, perhaps, we split, this being necessary always so that various possibilities can be brought into action.
Ruburt has changed since then, and so have I. And yet we are bounc together,

feels like their relationship (and those of the rest of us) are not just about being from the same consciousness family, entity, incarnations, probable selves or even counterparts. It's more complicated than that. I find "I will go into the construction of entities later" very intriguing.

I recently ordered a copy of The Early Sessions 2 because of Seth's comment about "when you reread the last two sessions you will understand this material completely." Ah, so much to read and so little time. Maybe I need to get myself to a nunnery. Maybe then I'd have more time to read.

[Counterpart]

From what I've read to date, it seems to me Seth and Jane have always been a part of the same entity and have crossed paths in their incarnations more than once. It goes back to that idea that we often incarnate with the same consciousnesses, taking on different roles each time.

I agree. This is exactly how I understand their relationship. To me the quote:

 Ago century, seance. She was medium reaching me for you. I came through, too.

means a very nice parallel between different times: in the "current" lifetime Seth has "appeared"  through ouija-board, in the "past" lifetime he had "appeared" in the seance. So, "decorations" have changed but the essence is the same.

[Counterpart]

We must be careful interpreting anything Seth says that has the caveat 'in your terms...', because, as our beliefs can be unique, then my terms might just be different from your terms. And Seth uses 'in your terms..' very often.

Very good point! To me this means that any mental/verbal description is just an approximate model of true reality, a sort of its translation into the language understandable on our plane, or, in other words, we got the material filtered through the system of core beliefs of our plane, which inevitably implies serious distortions. And the true reality can be perceived (again, just in the directions of our choice and concentration) only by our inner feelings. And I see the greatest value of Seth materials in that he truly perceives the  reality in many directions and translates it (through Jane) and, which is the most important part, awakens our inner feelings. Without the last step the data become just a nice model for playful minds.

Ideas of cycles seem to be just that...ideas. Perhaps these 'cycles' are just comfortable beliefs we keep to try to understand life.

I'd rather say that the phenomenon of incarnation cycles itself is quite real but, of course, different from any description of it and can be perceived directly by our inner feelings. But we inevitably have to use the language of our plane which is based on our core beliefs 

[Counterpart]

Maybe Jane didn't try hard enough to implement Seth's material. If she did, then she would have 'healed', would she not?

We can see in The Magical Approach book that Seth sometimes wasn't "satisfied" with Jane and Rob's application of his materials. Jane did make good progress when using the magical approach for healing herself, but it wans't an easy task in the world where the rational approach prevails. So, Jane couldn't keep practice the right approach all the time. I'm sure she could extend her life considerably in the case of more dedicated application of Seth's principles on the subject of healing, but she chose to apply the major part of her psychic energy to other directions which were more important for her value fulfillment.  The book gives an excellent and true-to-life story of Jane's efforts to heal herself.
Here is just one quote from the book illustrating the above ideas:

"Ruburt kept a strong rational approach to make sure that he was keeping
his psychic activity in line, because in your society this seemed the only rational thing
to do (ironically). Your problems have not been solved, then, largely of course because
you have taken the wrong approach, and that is because you were jointly not
convinced as yet. You still held to those trained beliefs. In that regard, Ruburt has
suffered more than you have.
The old beliefs, of course, and the rational approach, are everywhere reinforced,
and so it does indeed have a great weight. The magical approach has far greater
weight, if you use it and allow yourselves to operate in that fashion, for it has the
weight of your basic natural orientation. The rational approach is the superimposed
one. I think that you are both ready to understand that.
In this session is material that will indeed allow Ruburt to get out of the present
situation, but we will continue the discussion at our next session. I have given you
some such material before, as I intend to give you shortly. With your own recent
experiences, however, the material will be more meaningful and significant now, so
that you can indeed put it this time to better use, and I will also be somewhat more
specific."

[Michael Sternbach]

Yes, things may look quite different from Seth's vantage point, especially as far as understanding time, but we are where we are and must work from here.

But unlike when I first read the books, I now refuse to fill my mind with hazy concepts and seeming logical fallancies, I need my ideas to be clear cut, even if they aren't all right in an "absolute sense" and I may have to modify them later.

[sethspeaks]

And we know what the entity is? It does not seem easy to me to answer this question.

Session 54 /again/:
"An entity can indeed in some ways be compared to a tree that brings forth many seeds, the seeds being individuals in themselves, with all the potentialities to become themselves full entities.
Many, as I have said, do. That is, many fragment personalities do become entities. We are dealing here with a psychic tree however, and the seeds or personalities that do not develop into entities, do not because they do not choose to do so.
I will go further and shock you thoroughly, by mentioning that your regular seeds that do not develop, do not fail as a rule because of a lack of the necessary environmental ingredients, but simply because, for various reasons during a particular arbitrary point, they do not choose to so develop.
This applies to the seeds of any flower or tree or person. I have told you that consciousness is in all things, and the power behind all things. The entity itself constantly changes, and an entity can indeed choose to disintegrate.
You see the growth process in a very distorted manner, because of your antiquated cause and effect theory. Growth on your plane is merely the reflection, or one of the reflections, of value fulfillment, seen through the distorted lens of your perspective.
Change, as you must know, involves not only growth but a complete dis-orientation, to make way for a different, perhaps newer, orientation. You see value fulfillment in terms of growth, and therefore think of disintegration in terms of psychic destruction and death. That is, you see an ending as the effect of any beginning.
This is indeed unfortunate, since there is only a change of form, one form fading into another form. There is no actual point of death, in your terms. You cannot set a certain time to even a individual death, any more than you can set a time for any individual birth.
The change is always gradual, even in so far as your own perspective is concerned. The change is gradual because the change is spontaneous. If the change were not spontaneous and not everoccurring and reoccurring, then you could say "now this is the moment of birth or death."
Even on your own plane, as seen in the physical corpse itself, the physical images does not suddenly cease. In fact, you have an old superstition in some parts of your own country, that a man is not truly dead until everyone who ever knew him is dead. And this is true.
It is true because everyone who is acquainted with a particular individual creates his own image of him, as he creates his own image of them. As long as memory of a particular individual is alive, that particular personality still exists upon your plane, and this is not always to his advantage.
I will have more to say, per usual. I suggest your break, and keep in mind that I will speak more on the construction of the entity, the tree analogy being a good one, because all of our imaginary seeds do not develop into trees. This does not necessarily mean, either, that there is a deficiency; merely that the consciousness involved does not choose for one reason or another to materialize fully in a particular form, or to develop any given abilities along certain lines. This may also represent a needed resting point."

[Deb]

Maybe Jane didn't try hard enough to implement Seth's material. If she did, then she would have 'healed', would she not? And I don't mean that in any way disrespectfully. Her 'sinful self' beliefs were very powerful.

So can I conject here that there is a probable Jane that did implement Seth's advice and healed and is potentially still alive? With potential additional variations of that result? Or does Seth's comment about her being at the end of her incarnational cycle eliminate those possibilities?

[Michael Sternbach]

And we know what the entity is? It does not seem easy to me to answer this question.

Session 54 /again/:
"An entity can indeed in some ways be compared to a tree that brings forth many seeds, the seeds being individuals in themselves, with all the potentialities to become themselves full entities.
Many, as I have said, do. That is, many fragment personalities do become entities. We are dealing here with a psychic tree however, and the seeds or personalities that do not develop into entities, do not because they do not choose to do so.
I will go further and shock you thoroughly, by mentioning that your regular seeds that do not develop, do not fail as a rule because of a lack of the necessary environmental ingredients, but simply because, for various reasons during a particular arbitrary point, they do not choose to so develop.
This applies to the seeds of any flower or tree or person. I have told you that consciousness is in all things, and the power behind all things. The entity itself constantly changes, and an entity can indeed choose to disintegrate.
You see the growth process in a very distorted manner, because of your antiquated cause and effect theory. Growth on your plane is merely the reflection, or one of the reflections, of value fulfillment, seen through the distorted lens of your perspective.
Change, as you must know, involves not only growth but a complete dis-orientation, to make way for a different, perhaps newer, orientation. You see value fulfillment in terms of growth, and therefore think of disintegration in terms of psychic destruction and death. That is, you see an ending as the effect of any beginning.
This is indeed unfortunate, since there is only a change of form, one form fading into another form. There is no actual point of death, in your terms. You cannot set a certain time to even a individual death, any more than you can set a time for any individual birth.
The change is always gradual, even in so far as your own perspective is concerned. The change is gradual because the change is spontaneous. If the change were not spontaneous and not everoccurring and reoccurring, then you could say "now this is the moment of birth or death."
Even on your own plane, as seen in the physical corpse itself, the physical images does not suddenly cease. In fact, you have an old superstition in some parts of your own country, that a man is not truly dead until everyone who ever knew him is dead. And this is true.
It is true because everyone who is acquainted with a particular individual creates his own image of him, as he creates his own image of them. As long as memory of a particular individual is alive, that particular personality still exists upon your plane, and this is not always to his advantage.
I will have more to say, per usual. I suggest your break, and keep in mind that I will speak more on the construction of the entity, the tree analogy being a good one, because all of our imaginary seeds do not develop into trees. This does not necessarily mean, either, that there is a deficiency; merely that the consciousness involved does not choose for one reason or another to materialize fully in a particular form, or to develop any given abilities along certain lines. This may also represent a needed resting point."

Seth talks about the continuing existence of things as long as they are remembered in Nature of Personal Reality.

And I still somehow like the idea that two personalities can fuse in order to create an entity. Reminiscent of the way small galaxies sometimes blend
with each other to form a bigger one.

[sethspeaks]

I think to be healthy and immortal are two different things.

And I also think that the entity's comparison to the galaxy is interesting, but, in my opinion, the entity is a psychological whole that prefers a certain way of inner fulfillment.

[LenKop]

I think all of the above.


Len

[Counterpart]

So can I conject here that there is a probable Jane that did implement Seth's advice and healed and is potentially still alive?

Quite a probable probability Why not?

Or does Seth's comment about her being at the end of her incarnational cycle eliminate those possibilities?

I think the answer is in the Seth materials themselves:
1. Seth had ended the cycle while Jane was still on our plane.
2. Jane, according to Seth, is, in a sense, a "past version" of Seth, or probable Seth (where "past" means, of course, the creative and unpredictable past, not predetermined one).
3. So, Jane [Ruburt], even after ending her cycle, can have other versions of Jane (probable Jane, or "past" Jane) on our plane, and, if she wishes, even take on the role of guide for them like Seth took on the role of guide for Jane. Why not? Creativity is limitless.

[Deb]

So can I conject here that there is a probable Jane that did implement Seth's advice and healed and is potentially still alive?

Quite a probable probability Why not?

So in a probable reality, one I don't share in this version, Jane was also able to produce more books and Seth was able to complete dictating all that he intended. Fascinating. 

I also find this statement intriguing, I need to think on it a little more (neither has a reincarnational future vs. in other terms there are three future lives):

Now: In your terms only, [neither of you] ... has a reincarnational future. Give us a
moment ... You have accepted this as your breaking-off point. In other terms there
are three future lives, but your greater intents, as of now, break you off from this
system of reality, and you have already journeyed, both of you, into another;

I'd love to know where Jane is now. And also love the idea of her being a guide or teacher.

Some, finished with reincarnation, may choose to reenter the cycle acting as teachers,
and in such cases some recognition of higher identity is always present.