Evidence of the return of the Christ personality?

[Deb]

Since we don't have enough Christ topics ( ) I thought I'd start yet another one. If any of you have seen other "signs" of Seth's prediction, please share. This has been in my mind since this:

The failure of the Roman Catholic Church to deal with the abuse problem is the final proof of their spiritual bankruptcy. One of the root causes of the problem is the compulsory celibacy for priests and nuns, but they won't dream of giving that up.

BTW the part "he will not be generally known for who he is" (below) makes me feel that he will not be associated with religion in any way, i.e. not a minister or glorified guru, in order to be credible to a wider audience. So he'd have to be of the sciences, I think. Physics or something equally universally respected. Certainly not a politician. And reasoning with the people of the world to see things differently without directly confronting their current religious beliefs, which will naturally fall away on their own.

"(9:20.) He will not come to reward the righteous and send evildoers to eternal doom. He will, however, begin a new religious drama. A certain historical continuity will be maintained. As happened once before, however, he will not be generally known for who he is. There will be no glorious proclamation to which the whole world will bow. He will return to straighten out Christianity, which will be in a shambles at the time of his arrival, and to set up a new system of thought when the world is sorely in need of one."
—SS Chapter 21: Session 586, July 24, 1971

"(9:25.) By that time, all religions will be in severe crisis. He will undermine religious organizations — not unite them. His message will be that of the individual in relation to All That Is. He will clearly state methods by which each individual can attain a state of intimate contact with his own entity; the entity to some extent being man's mediator with All That Is."
—SS Chapter 21: Session 586, July 24, 1971

Evidence:
The Horrific Catholic Church Sex Abuse Scandal Is About to Get a Lot Worse

"If you think Pennsylvania was bad, wait until you get to New York and New Jersey."

Hey, the Pope wears a watch. Or is that a FitBit? Sorry, lol.

So abuse is just confined to the US? Nope.

The ball is rolling.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

What a fun topic Deb, thanks for starting it. 

I've always been intrigued by this portion of the Seth information. I like trying to figure out the details about this person, from the information Seth gave us.

Not to disagree with you Deb, but I think that this personality "will" be religious or spiritual in nature.  I think that while he probably will be a person with a spiritual message, he may not necessarily be affiliated with any specific religion. In talking about this personality in Seth Speaks, Session 586, Seth says the following:

"He will, however, begin a new religious drama."

"This personality will refer to the historical Christ, will recognize his relationship with that personality; [...]"



In Session 586, Seth says:

"As happened once before, however, he will not generally be known for who he is."

I take this to mean that generally speaking, he will not be recognized as the second coming of Christ.  Originally, I also took this statement to mean that he would not be "well known", but this isn't necessarily the case. This person may be someone who is very well known, but just not recognized as the second coming of Christ.


Seth says that by the time that this person arrives, Christianity will be in shambles and all religions will be in severe crisis.  I figure that this is probably at least one generation away and maybe two.

I can see how the Catholic Church could definitely be in shambles by then, but it's harder to see how the other religions (Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.) will be in a severe crisis. Maybe it's just that by the time this personality lives, many of the people of the world will recognize the same issues with all of these religions that we, this Seth group, see today, as a result of our individual backgrounds and Seth's teachings.

jbseth

[Sena]

He will return to straighten out Christianity, which will be in a shambles at the time of his arrival,

Christianity in the West is doomed, but it could persist in Africa and Asia. Nice to have something like Candomblé:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candombl%C3%A9

"Music and dance are important parts of Candomblé ceremonies, since the dances enable worshippers to become possessed by the orishas. In the rituals, participants make offerings from the mineral, vegetable, and animal kingdoms. Candomblé does not include the duality of good and evil; each person is required to fulfill his or her destiny to the fullest, regardless of what that is."

[Deb]

Not to disagree with you Deb, but I think that this personality "will" be religious or spiritual in nature.  I think that while he probably will be a person with a spiritual message, he may not necessarily be affiliated with any specific religion. In talking about this personality in Seth Speaks, Session 586, Seth says the following:

"He will, however, begin a new religious drama."

"This personality will refer to the historical Christ, will recognize his relationship with that personality; [...]"

Go on and disagree, I'm here to learn.

Dang, I do remember reading that, but I just can't imagine how anyone but Christians will be open to someone saying he is related to JC. And yes, we're a ways off because not all religions at this point (even Catholicism) are in complete shambles. I can hardly wait. 

I guess I still have a problem with the word "religion" because in my eyes religion has been so misused and distorted—used to punish, destroy, control, judge. Spiritual, I can accept. All I can think is that we need another religion like we need another diet. Am I too pollyannish to think people can change their attitudes and behaviors based on understanding and reason, and learning how to love, respect and tolerate others and all that is in our world without religion? But Seth did say... and maybe my definition of religion is different than what Seth meant. I should research that.

I'll not be around "here" in 2075, at least as this person, and even then Seth said things would merely be in place at that point.

"By 2075, all of this will be already accomplished. The birth will occur by the time given. The other changes will occur generally over the period of a century, but the results will show far before that time.

"Because of the plastic nature of the future, in your terms, the date cannot be considered final. All probabilities point in its direction, however, for the inner impetus is already forming the events."

SS, Session 586

Nice to have something like Candomblé:

This looks really nice, Catholicism must play a very small part in it. There are some people who follow religions that can be tolerant and accepting of others who don't share their beliefs, and don't use religion as dogma, but as a way to celebrate and uplift. I really appreciate people who can be this way, I think that's what "it's" all about. Maybe prejudice is a human weakness. It's not limited to religious beliefs.

[Sena]

Not to disagree with you Deb, but I think that this personality "will" be religious or spiritual in nature.  I think that while he probably will be a person with a spiritual message, he may not necessarily be affiliated with any specific religion. In talking about this personality in Seth Speaks, Session 586, Seth says the following:

"He will, however, begin a new religious drama."

jbseth,
A religion can mean many different things. It seems to me that the Sethian concept of All That Is fits with Taoism:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/taoism/

[jbseth]

Hi Sena,

Usually, when I use the word "religion", I'm typically referring to entire set of beliefs and practices of those people who practice that religion. Of course, for most religions, there are several variations, as with Buddhism for example, where there is Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism and so the beliefs and practices within any given religion do vary somewhat.

I have noticed that in many of the world's religions, there are some "aspects" of some religions that are similar to some of Seth's concepts. For example, I think the Hindu concept of "Prana" and the Taoist concept of "Chi" are similar to Seth's concept of the energy or "vitality" of "All That Is".  I also personally believe that the Taoist concept of "Tao" is very similar to Seth's concept of "All That Is".

However, that being said, I'm not sure that any of the world's religions are actually similar to all of Seth's concepts and visa versa.  Along these same lines, Seth did say the following in Seth Speaks, Chapter 17, Session 568: 

"[...] Now the same thing applies to each of your great religions, though as I have said in the past, the Buddhists come closer, generally speaking, to a description of the nature of reality. They have not understood the eternal validity of the soul, however, in terms of its exquisite invulnerability, nor been able to hold a feeling for its unique character."


jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi Deb,

This message is in response to your comment in reply #3 where you said,

"Dang, I do remember reading that, but I just can't imagine how anyone but Christians will be open to someone saying he is related to JC."


I "think" that this third Christ personality probably won't be affiliated with any major religion. While I know I may be completely wrong about this, here's the reasons for coming to these conclusions.

In regards to when this third Christ personality arrives, Seth says that "By that time, all religions will be in severe crisis."  If this is true, then it seems to me that anyone at that time who is affiliated with a major world religion would likely have very little credibility with people. Especially, in regards to their personal religious philosophy. 

In addition to this, Seth also says that "He will undermine religious organizations — not unite them." At that time, I would think that people would be willing to listen to him because he "doesn't" represent a major religion and because what he says "undermines" these religious organizations.

This is why I don't think that he will be affiliated with any major world religion.


Seth says that, "His message will be that of the individual in relation to All That Is." Because of this, it seems to me that his message will be very much like Seth's. Thus, I'm guessing that he'll probably talk about "All That Is", reincarnation, the nature of reality and how these all work. 

Seth also says that, "he will not be generally known for who he is." This makes me think that perhaps, while he will understand his relationship with the original Jesus, he may not spend much time, if any, talking about it.  Otherwise, why would people not know who he was? Maybe it's just that many people who weren't followers of his messages didn't believe this about him or maybe it's just that, by that time, with Christianity in shambles, many people just won't care.

I've spent a lot of time pondering these things because I've always been intrigued by this Seth concept.  I don't know that I'm necessarily right on any of these conclusions, but it's definitely fun to ponder them.

jbseth 

[Sena]

Usually, when I use the word "religion", I'm typically referring to entire set of beliefs and practices of those people who practice that religion.

Hi jbseth,

The administrators of the great religions are the forerunners of modern marketing organizations - They want to sell the entire package. If you get Windows 10 on your computer, Microsoft will be pushing you to use all the associated "apps" like the Microsoft Edge browser. I try to resist this pressure by using the Chrome browser.

If the Second Christ comes with a religion, I would hope that he does not stoop to the level of Microsoft.

[jbseth]

Hi All,

Today, September 16, 2018, the Dalai Lama says that he knew of sex abuse of Buddhist teachers since the 1990's.  This is the first time that I've ever heard of this.

I wonder if this problem, across the various religions, isn't aggravated and potentially the result of the belief in the need to deny the flesh.   Its very sad that this is occurring.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/dalai-lama-i-knew-of-sex-abuse-by-buddhist-teachers-since-1990s/ar-BBNnDZ3


In regards to the second coming, in Seth Speaks, Chapter 21 Session 586, Seth does say:

" [...] By that time, all religions will be in severe crisis. [...].

jbseth

[Sena]

By that time, all religions will be in severe crisis.

The persecution of Muslims by Buddhists in Mayanmar is really nasty.

[Deb]

I "think" that this third Christ personality probably won't be affiliated with any major religion. While I know I may be completely wrong about this, here's the reasons for coming to these conclusions.

I agree.

As far as "he will not be generally known for who he is," I take this to mean that people will not immediately be aware that he is here directly to straighten the world out spiritually or that he is part of the Christ entity. He will have to find a way to have ALL people listen to him. But to appeal to the entire planet—that's ambitious.

And yet this still troubles me: "This personality will refer to the historical Christ, will recognize his relationship with that personality; [...]" I wonder if he will at some point reveal the truth behind the Christ myth? Whoa. That would certainly put the last nail in Christianity's coffin.

If the Second Christ comes with a religion, I would hope that he does not stoop to the level of Microsoft.

Nice one Sena, that cracked me up! But you have a good point there, it seems religion has to be accepted as a whole—one chink in the wall and the whole belief system could crumble. About 20 years ago I discovered Deepak Chopra and was playing a recording of him on TV. My born-again sister in law was visiting at the time and she ran from the room covering her ears and eyes, saying something like "I can't watch that, it goes against our Lord." Deepak was saying, at the time, how wherever we are, we are the center of the universe, surrounded by infinity.

Oh wow, JB, the sex abuse of Buddhist teachers was a new one to me (the Muslim persecution too, I've always romanticized Buddhism as peaceful, kind and spiritually advanced). I kind of expect the abuse in Catholicism, maybe because I've always heard about it. I blamed that on the chastity vow. But then sex abuse seems to be rampant in all sorts of organizations, by people in positions of trust. Schools, offices, scouts, military, politics/government, medicine. I've been on the receiving end myself. I wonder what it is that can make people be sexual predators? Maybe that type of person is drawn to positions of authority.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb,

In your previous post, in regards to the new Christ personality, you said:

"He will have to find a way to have ALL people listen to him. But to appeal to the entire planet—that's ambitious "


I'm not sure this will be a problem for him, considering what Seth says about him and Jesus.


First, in TES5, Session 203, Seth said:

"Your Christ had abilities which I still do not have... [...] "

Now that's quite a statement. 



Then in Seth Speaks, Session 586, Seth said:

"The third personality of Christ will indeed be known as a great psychic, for it is he who will teach humanity to use those inner senses that alone make true spirituality possible."



If this third personality will be "known" as a great psychic, and if he has abilities like Jesus, that Seth doesn't even have, then I don't think he'll have any problem gaining world-wide attention. 


jbseth

[usmaak]

"He will, however, begin a new religious drama."

I enjoy reading the Seth material and have been reading it for many years.  There is quite a bit of it that I have a difficult time believing in.  This return of Christ thing is one of those things I don't believe in.  But then, I don't believe in religion in general or that JC ever actually existed.  I've always believed that the bible is actually just a set of stories to keep people in line.  I've never seen any evidence that it is anything else.

The thought of a new religious drama actually makes me feel queasy.  I very much dislike religion.  Very much.

[Sena]

This return of Christ thing is one of those things I don't believe in.

usmaak,
The only Christ I would accept is one that was completely different to the one fabricated by Saints Paul and Augustine and the Catholic Church. We have a good test for the second Christ, because he will say, "I agree with everything Seth said".

[Deb]

But then, I don't believe in religion in general or that JC ever actually existed.  I've always believed that the bible is actually just a set of stories to keep people in line.  I've never seen any evidence that it is anything else.

I've long felt that myself: a complete distaste for religion, and was not sure JC ever existed and didn't really care. But Seth has made me at least be open to the idea that Jesus did exist as a person (I'm not at all saying you should be too, just trying to explain where I'm coming from), but he was totally blown out of proportion by Christianity, the Bible, etc. and ulterior motives. I personally explored and somewhat settled this "issue" for myself elsewhere here.

The only reason I became even remotely interested in the Christ personality is because it comes up so much in the Seth materials. It's either important, or it was only important to Jane and to a lesser extent Rob, because of Jane's early heavy absorption in religion. To me it doesn't really matter whether Jesus ever walked the earth. Seth has said the whole crucifixion drama was not real, was a psychic event, the man known as Jesus is not the person we think of as the legendary Jesus the Christ. I also feel there tends to be a seed of truth at the base of every myth and legend.

But if there is going to be a return of that strong entity, I look forward to this:

"The third personality of Christ will indeed be known as a great psychic, for it is he who will teach humanity to use those inner senses that alone make true spirituality possible. Slayers and victims will change roles as reincarnational memories rise to the surface of consciousness. Through the development of these abilities, the sacredness of all life will be intimately recognized and appreciated."
—SS Chapter 21: Session 586, July 24, 1971

True spirituality, not a new religion. And the "new religious drama" could mean the end of religions entirely, as they will be in a "shambles" by then. Taking religious beliefs away from people alone would eliminate a major divisive component in humanity. This crumbling of dogmatic beliefs would, I hope, open people's minds to new ideas.

The "great psychic" part is interesting to me, as currently the majority of people and about all of science don't believe psychics are real. I did a search yesterday on "great psychics 2018" and didn't find anyone who stuck out in my mind. I think we have a way to go.

And yes, it would certainly be great if he would be a Seth fan. 

[jbseth]

Hi All,

For me, probably the biggest issue I've had with the Seth information is trying to figure out "why" Seth placed so much emphasis on this "Second Coming" story.

This just didn't seem to make any sense to me, especially because it seems so inconsistent with his general message where he says that predictions often don't work because we create our reality and others can't always correctly predict what reality we will choose to create.

Furthermore in his general message he also talks about probable realities and how there are other realities that exist that we don't experience.  For example, in the beginning of Chapter 16 in "Seth Speaks" Seth gives an example where he says a friend calls you and wants you to meet him at five o'clock, and you consider: (A) saying no and staying home, (B) saying no and going somewhere else and (C) saying yes and keeping the engagement. Seth says that all three of these realities do, in fact, occur somewhere though in this reality we only experience one of them.


Given this then, "I" interpret Seth's general message as saying that there are realities where Jesus never existed. There are realities where Jesus existed and his existence was that described in the New Testament. There are realities where Jesus existed and his existence was that described by Seth as one of the three personalities of the Christ entity, and there are other realities where Jesus existed and his existence was different than any of these.

Along with this "I" also interpret Seth's general message as saying that in the future, there are realities where no second coming will occur. There are realities where a second coming will occur and these realities will be like what most Christians believe will happen. There are realities where a second coming will occur and these will be like what Seth says will happen and there are realities where a second coming will occur and the events in these realities will be different than any of those previously mentioned.


So then I asked myself, given that this is Seth's general message, why would he have emphasized his specific "Second Coming" scenario. 


One plausible answer that I've come up with, has to do with what he talks about in Chapter 15 of Seth Speaks, on Re-incarnational Civilizations; this is the chapter where he talks about the Lumanians.   In this chapter, Seth says:

"In a manner of speaking, it can be said that you have reincarnational civilizations as well as reincarnating individuals." 

Then, in this same chapter, Seth also says:

"Groups of people in various cycles of reincarnational activity have met crisis after crisis, have come to your point of physical development and either gone beyond it, or destroyed their particular civilization."


I believe that, as a society, we have reached a point where we can very easily destroy ourselves if we aren't wise about the choices we make. This destruction could come about due to any number of situations like nuclear war, environmental disaster, overpopulation, or even perhaps the "terminator" movie scenario for example.

I think that Seth knew that one of the future probable realities, where we don't destroy ourselves, has to do with the "Second Coming" scenario that he told us about.  By having us believe that his "Second Coming" scenario is actually going to occur in the future, we will then create it by our belief and as a result of this, we won't end up destroying ourselves in the meantime.

"I" truly believe that this is the real reason why Seth emphasized this "second coming" scenario, and since I see the wisdom of this, I willing choose to go along with it.

I don't expect other members of this forum to necessarily agree with me on this and that's OK, we are all on our individual paths.

However I,  for myself, haven't come up with any better ideas to explain why Seth may have chosen to emphasize his "second coming" scenario, given what he says about predictions, how we create our reality and the nature of probable realities.

jbseth

[Deb]

For me, probably the biggest issue I've had with the Seth information is trying to figure out "why" Seth placed so much emphasis on this "Second Coming" story.

Yep, I'm with you there. As I mentioned above, I tend to think that Jane had a lot to do with that. Seth did answer a lot of questions that Jane and Rob posed, and both Jane and Rob were very interested in the Christ story so that probably added a lot to the Christ-related content. Seth offered a book on the subject, but somehow that never happened in this reality. I'm not forgetting that Jane also could block Seth when he was about to disclose something that made her feel uncomfortable, so by the same token did she manufacture some info? And there were no doubt some distortions. There were also other times when I've questioned things attributed to Seth in the books that just didn't feel like Seth to me. For instance, dietary recommendations from the man who said it is more important what you feel about what you eat than what you actually eat. Seth did say to not take his words as dogma, that could easily excuse some of that grey area.

This just didn't seem to make any sense to me, especially because it seems so inconsistent with his general message where he says that predictions often don't work because we create our reality and others can't always correctly predict what reality we will choose to create.

I don't have a problem with that part, I've been somehow able to rationalize it away by feeling that when he was saying those things, he was addressing the Jane and Rob and the rest of us that are in THIS current reality, where probabilities have lead up to where we are now and with the history we know. Yes, there are other probabilities where things transpired differently. And he did say that due to free will, the future cannot be accurately predicted, but that in this case (at least with regards to the 2075 date) "all probabilities point in [that] direction." So the return seems to be the plausible option. But not guaranteed. I kinda think if the probabilities were that low, he would not have even mentioned it.

"Because of the plastic nature of the future, in your terms, the date cannot be considered final. All probabilities point in its direction, however, for the inner impetus is already forming the events."
SS, Session 586

By having us believe that his "Second Coming" scenario is actually going to occur in the future, we will then create it by our belief and as a result of this, we won't end up destroying ourselves in the meantime.

Now THAT'S an interesting thought. Belief is huge. I know I've had the feeling that Seth had a lot of affection for the Earth as we know it: the people, his lives, Rob and Jane. Would he try to influence us with disguised insider information? I don't know, but he often hints of clues that are there for us in this reality.

Today someone put this quote up on a Facebook Seth group and I really liked it. It's from channeled material from a woman named Pat Rodegast, her channel source was named Emmanuel. I'm not interested in pursuing Emmanuel, I have what I need from Seth, but I thought it was beautiful and talks about beliefs.

The moment you believe in something, you have created – literally - a reality. The moment you believe in something – the moment that you give something credence - no matter how improbable or impossible it may seem to be - the moment you allow it into your framework of belief - you have given it, not only probability or possibility but reality. That is how unencumbered, and how powerful you really are.

I'm ready for a shakeup. It feels like we've been on this treadmill waaaayyyyy too long.

[usmaak]

By having us believe that his "Second Coming" scenario is actually going to occur in the future, we will then create it by our belief and as a result of this, we won't end up destroying ourselves in the meantime.

This makes me uncomfortable because it goes against what Seth has always seemed to be, at least to me.  In spite of benign intentions, it would be manipulative and against our free will (if our free will choice is to destroy ourselves in this reality).  If I accept this premise, then I have to wonder what other distortions were introduced into the material with benign intentions and that makes me question what is "real" and what is not.

[Sena]

I think that Seth knew that one of the future probable realities, where we don't destroy ourselves, has to do with the "Second Coming" scenario that he told us about.  By having us believe that his "Second Coming" scenario is actually going to occur in the future, we will then create it by our belief and as a result of this, we won't end up destroying ourselves in the meantime.

"I" truly believe that this is the real reason why Seth emphasized this "second coming" scenario, and since I see the wisdom of this, I willing choose to go along with it.

jbseth,
This is very interesting. So the Secong Coming, if it occurs, will be a reality created by us.
I have been reading about Dostoevsky. According to him, humans as a mass are usually not able to make rational decisions. An example is the Brexit vote in the UK. A people with a generally high level of education have chosen a path which is going to hit many of them economically. It was an emotional decision rather than a rational one.
So perhaps Seth was trying to influence the emotions of his readers in order to dissuade them from destroying themselves.

[Deb]

By having us believe that his "Second Coming" scenario is actually going to occur in the future, we will then create it by our belief and as a result of this, we won't end up destroying ourselves in the meantime.

This makes me uncomfortable because it goes against what Seth has always seemed to be, at least to me.  In spite of benign intentions, it would be manipulative and against our free will (if our free will choice is to destroy ourselves in this reality).  If I accept this premise, then I have to wonder what other distortions were introduced into the material with benign intentions and that makes me question what is "real" and what is not.

Sorry for this short "drive by" post, but Ron Card posted this quote (below) on Facebook recently. I do sometimes wonder if he reads some of the posts on this forum, he often posts timely things related to our current topics. Could just be coincidence or the collective consciousness. This past week he posted a long quote from Seth on the second coming. I still need to sort that out to see if there's anything useful there.

Anyway, I really didn't get the feeling that Seth was trying to manipulate anyone, ever. He's always felt very direct to me, and while warm, also objective. @Sena, I think you nailed it though that the second coming will be created by us. If we are to accept that we create reality, individually and en masse, then it would have to be our creation. And in cooperation with the Christ entity and any of its incarnations.

The quote is from the Seth Audio Collection. While I have most of that, I have not listened to it all and do not have the transcripts, so can't verify the accuracy of the quote. But Ron is good with quotes, aside from a rare typo here and there. The reason for me posting the quote is because it speaks to the "state of mind" of Seth with regards to his lack of feeling responsible for [our or Jane and Rob's] beings or welfare. Here goes:

"I come here because it is fun.
I have fun when I come here.
I do not come here because I feel I have any great responsibility for your beings or welfare. Who am I to set myself against the innate wisdom or your own individual being, or to take upon my invisible shoulders the great privilege or joyful responsibility for your behavior and destiny?"

I suppose one just has to decide whether to trust and believe Seth. Or not.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Deb, at the end of your last post on this topic you said, "I suppose one just has to decide whether to trust and believe Seth. Or not."

My question is this, "Which Seth do we trust and believe?"


Throughout all of the Seth information, Seth was occasionally inconsistent about what he said on several different topics. One of these was in regards to predictions.


For example, in Seth Speaks, Appendix: ESP Class Session: Tuesday, January 5, 1971, Seth said:

"Time, in your terms, is plastic. Most predictions are made in a highly distorted fashion; they can lead the public astray. Not only that, but when the predictors fall flat on their faces it does not help "The Cause." Reality does not exist in that fashion. You can tune in to certain probabilities and predict "that they will occur," but free will always operates. No god in a giant ivory tower says, "This will happen February 15 at 8:05." And if no god predicts, then I do not see the point of doing so myself."


Then, several months after making this statement, in Seth Speaks, Chapter 21, Session 586, July 24, 1971, Seth talks about this second coming and predicts that this is to occur by the year 2075.

In addition to this, he does say the following in this same session:

"Events are not predestined. The framework for this emergence has already been set, however, within your system of probabilities. The emergence of this third personality will directly affect the original historical drama of Christ as it is now known. There is and must be interactions between them. "



There were also several occasions where Seth told Rob, that Rob and Jane would both live a long life in this life, and it turns out that this prediction wasn't, in fact, accurate. Jane passed in 1984 while Rob lived until 2008.

So why did Seth make any prediction, given what he said about predictions in the ESP Class.  My thought is that he was trying to help. I think that Seth always tried to help people out.

He may have been aware that there was a probable reality where Jane would die long before Rob, and was either trying to get them to change this through their beliefs, or maybe he just didn't want to reinforce this probable reality.


Somewhere, (I've been looking for this statement in my books and through the Seth Search Engine, but I haven't been able to locate it again) Seth makes a statement along the lines of, "I know that its important to help" and the way he says this, makes me think that this has to do with value fulfillment.

I think, as a rule, Seth was always trying to help people, where he could.


Now, in regards to the concern about Seth's predictions (or anyone else's) affecting our free will choice, each of us has to decide for ourselves, whether we believe Seth's statement that, "You can tune in to certain probabilities and predict "that they will occur," but free will always operates. "


jbseth 








 

[usmaak]

There were also several occasions where Seth told Rob, that Rob and Jane would both live a long life in this life, and it turns out that this prediction wasn't, in fact, accurate. Jane passed in 1984 while Rob lived until 2008.

So why did Seth make any prediction, given what he said about predictions in the ESP Class.  My thought is that he was trying to help. I think that Seth always tried to help people out.

He may have been aware that there was a probable reality where Jane would die long before Rob, and was either trying to get them to change this through their beliefs, or maybe he just didn't want to reinforce this probable reality.

It could have also been a distortion, caused by the wishes of Jane herself.  All through the books, her health issues are discussed.  Fear of death and non-existence is buried down deep in all of us.  Perhaps it was that, that was coming out with this "prediction".

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak,

Yes, it could have been a distortion.

What I'm expressing here is my "opinion" on what I believe Seth may have been doing.
This was an idea that I came up with and it's not necessarily a fact.
It is OK with me if others don't share my "opinion". 

I do know that many times, Seth tried to help Rob and Jane.
He also never seems to shy away from expressing an idea even if Jane or someone else, did not necessarily agree with it.  I'd say that Seth certainly wasn't reticent. 

jbseth

[Deb]

My question is this, "Which Seth do we trust and believe?"

For some reason I'm not seeing the same contradictions that you are. He did say that it appeared that "things would be in place by the year 2025" but did temper that with "within your system of probabilities." To me, it's just a probability but Seth seemed to feel it is a strong probability, yet not carved in stone. "You can tune in to certain probabilities and predict "that they will occur," but free will always operates."

Seth is/was a teacher. We are here to learn. If he were to force his ideas onto us, it would defeat the whole reason of of our existence here. We have the free will to choose what we do and do not do, including following Seth's advice (lord knows Jane and Rob ignored a lot of Seth's suggestions). Free will is why predictions are almost impossible to make, although we can speculate on the probability of a future event based on what we witness around us. The last US election was a perfect example of how even strong probabilities aren't 100% reliable. I think every celebrity psychic on the planet said Hillary was going to win. But like Seth said about our scientists, people were looking in the wrong direction and missed something. We are here to learn and free will is a learning tool. We have the freedom to make choices and mistakes, and luckily in this arena we often have repeated opportunities to get it right. If there was no free will, this whole setup would be pointless. The teacher:

"I want all of you to learn enough and think enough so that you will be able to read my material on your own—word by word—and understand what I am trying to say without the sugar coating and the frosting, though frosting is good."
~ESP Class Session, 01/14/69

Seth: "Soon, you see, you will all be able to read the Seth material. You all have good minds. You are not used to using them. You set up barriers and gates and limitations, and the material demands your high intellectual focus. I want you to use your intuitions, but I also want you to use your intellects. Some of you still have to learn to use them and how to give them freedom. I spoon-fed you. And I added a bit of sugar here and there. But if you continue here in classes, more and more you will have to give. You will have to give your high intellectual purpose and learn to use your minds as you never used them before. I am a tricky old character.

I am glad that you find me lovable. But I will trick you into using your minds. You must use all of your abilities. You will need them. And if you do well, you see, you can solve problems now. And if you are good you can skip a class, which means skip a reincarnation. The more problems you solve now, the fewer you will have to solve later. That does not mean that you will not have new challenges in other dimensions, for so you will. Think of the challenges that I have, for I must awaken you, and lead you onward and shake you up."
~ESP Class Session, 01/14/69

There were also several occasions where Seth told Rob, that Rob and Jane would both live a long life in this life, and it turns out that this prediction wasn't, in fact, accurate. Jane passed in 1984 while Rob lived until 2008.

So why did Seth make any prediction, given what he said about predictions in the ESP Class.  My thought is that he was trying to help. I think that Seth always tried to help people out.

Yes, Seth was always willing to help those who asked for it. And also trying to teach people how to think.

Rob: "Every so often someone wants to know about the extent to which we follow Seth's advice or information, and I suppose a good answer is that we may decide to go along with it if it suits our conscious purposes to do so. Sometimes we don't agree with what Seth tells us even when we know it's good counsel. [However, Jane and I freely admit that on occasion we've made the wrong choice in deciding to ignore what Seth had to say; in retrospect we've seen that he gave out very valid material.]"
—UR2 Section 6: Session 738 February 19, 1975

I've run out of quotes at the moment (sorry to disappoint, lol), but there was an pre-1960s earth agreement between Jane, Rob, Seth where they would all join up and produce the Seth Materials. The arrangement was for Jane to participate for 40 years. There were more books to be written, the book on Christ, etc. I think Seth said somewhere that before we come into the current earth existence, we decide not only on our family situation and challenges in life, but also our death. And we sometimes give ourselves a few choices of death opportunities. It seems that Jane opted, due to her free will, for an early out. Free will, once again. I think she let her earthly early childhood experiences get the best of her and she just ran out of steam.

Sorry but you must log in to view spoiler contents.

I have my ideas about the role of Laurel coming into the scenario as well.

Well, OK, just one more quote:

"I am in the position of teaching Ruburt and Joseph, and their responsibility is to teach others. They could accept this situation or not. The choice was up to them. Their own development however would not be as complete had they chosen to ignore the responsibility. They know me and they have known me well in past lives, you see, so I was not the stranger to them that they thought I was. This is their last reincarnation, and I tell you it is much easier to solve your problems now than to solve them later, and they are solving theirs now. And in solving theirs, they are helping others also."
—TECS1 ESP Class Session, March 12, 1968

And yes, we always have to consider possible distortions. Honestly, in reality we always only have ourselves to rely on and trust.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb,

To me, it seems like there were times when Seth contradicted himself. One example is with his statements regarding dietary restrictions that you previously pointed out. For me, another has to do with Seth making predictions.

I'm going to say that a "prediction" is a "foretelling" of a future event.

In the ESP class, in January 1971, Seth basically says the he sees no point in making predictions. But then, after saying this, in July 1971, in Session 586 Seth predicts that by the year 2075, the birth of the second coming Christ will have occurred.

If Seth sees no point in making predictions, then why did he make this second coming prediction 6 months later? This is what I meant about Seth contradicting himself in regards to predictions.


Is it possible that at least one of these 2 statements were a distortion? Yes, but it's also possible that neither one of these 2 statements were a distortion.

For me personally, I'm rather uncomfortable, with using the "distortion" possibility, to cover up what may have been a "legitimate" Seth contradiction. This rings of covering up or overlooking a messy situation (Seth contradicted himself) because it's inconvenient.


Does this possible contradiction bother me personally? No, for me, the take away here is Seth's point that predictions are not always reliable because people have and use free will to make changes all the time.

Will this possible contradiction bother others? Yes, I suspect, that for some people, this will prevent them from believing anything that Seth has to say.


Given all of this, if neither one of these two statements were caused by a distortion, I've asked myself, why would Seth have done this?  I don't know the answer to this, all I've got is speculation.


The bottom line here is this. I believe that Seth probably did contradict himself and for some people, I suspect that this will prevent them from believing anything that he has to say.

jbseth

[usmaak]

Does this possible contradiction bother me personally? No, for me, the take away here is Seth's point that predictions are not always reliable because people have and use free will to make changes all the time.

Will this possible contradiction bother others? Yes, I suspect, that for some people, this will prevent them from believing anything that Seth has to say.


Given all of this, if neither one of these two statements were caused by a distortion, I've asked myself, why would Seth have done this?  I don't know the answer to this, all I've got is speculation.


The bottom line here is this. I believe that Seth probably did contradict himself and for some people, I suspect that this will prevent them from believing anything that he has to say.

Good points, all of them.  These types of things have always been a struggle, because I spent much of my life believing in nothing.  There are people that are very rooted in the physical and the are many that are more open to other ideas.  I've pretty much always been the former.  I approach everything from a very scientific viewpoint, yet for some reason, I find myself drawn to this type of material over and over again.  I have been this way as far back as I can remember.  I was not raised with any religion, so I was essentially a clean slate.  I had bad experiences with born again christianity when I was a teen, but that's a whole other story.  The bad part about not being raised in religion (if there has to be a bad part) is that I never believed that there was anything other than this one life and that we all become worm food in the end.  By the time my mind could be opened to the possibilities, it was already a concept that just didn't make any sense.  My point in all of this is that I've been trained from the start to find distortions and contradictions in material and to automatically discount everything that was said up until the point of the contradiction.  This has made Seth challenging for me over the years and yes, there have been times where I've been convinced beyond doubt that the Seth material is entirely the creation of a deluded and seriously mentally ill woman.  Or maybe it was just a result of all the cigarettes and beer.  Rob sure does go into great detail about that.

To me, the material on the second coming is very unlike the material rest of the books.  It almost seems like another book written by a different author.  Whenever I get to that material, I usually just skip ahead to the end of it.  Based on my inherent dislike of anything religious, one thing that's always bugged me is the amount of information in the books about so called religious figures that I think are just a product of what was considered good fiction in those days.

And then I'm always thinking about how much of a coincidence it is that it's the second coming of christ.  There are so many religions out there, and hey, I just happen to live in a country where the most popular one is the one that Seth always talks about.  Wow, what luck!

[LarryH]

My thoughts are that an event regarding something in the life of one person or a small group has greater potential to change, since a person could easily change his/her beliefs before the event and cause a shift in the nature of that event or a cancellation. When dealing with a potential mass event such as the return of the Christ entity, we are dealing with the strong and emotional belief of hundreds of millions of Christians. We might also throw in the Jewish belief in a coming Messiah. If established religions are at that point in disarray (as we have been seeing before our eyes), there will be a yearning from believers for that void to be filled. The trending mass beliefs and yearnings may be so strong and durable that it is an almost guaranteed event. Seth also said that this was how the Christ story came about. Jesus (or whatever composite) was not what those who were waiting for him expected. He did not come to vanquish the enemies of the Jewish people. So mass consciousness creates what it needs in the context of mass beliefs, even if what it needs is not what it expected. If a returning Christ entity delivers the same message to billions that Seth has managed to deliver to a few million, that's OK with me.

[Sena]

To me, the material on the second coming is very unlike the material rest of the books.  It almost seems like another book written by a different author. 

usmaak, I agree. We need to rememember that the Second Coming of Christ is reputed to be a nasty, violent event, with "gnashing of teeth". I am inclined to offer two fingers to someone who speaks of this.

"Matthew 13:40-43 (NASB) "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/mark/8_38-9_1.htm

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak,

In your reply above, you said:

I've pretty much always been the former.  I approach everything from a very scientific viewpoint, yet for some reason, I find myself drawn to this type of material over and over again. 

Have you ever spent any time trying to figure out why, you are drawn to this type of material?



Years ago a good friend of mine shared with me a bit of wisdom having to do with how to look at material that seems philosophically challenging. He told me to take what works for me and disregard the rest.


jbseth

[usmaak]

Have you ever spent any time trying to figure out why, you are drawn to this type of material?

I have.  I think that it comes down to my hope that there's more to life than, "you're born, you live, you die".  I also like to hope that there's more to life than what I was brainwashed to believe during two summers at fire and brimstone born again christian bible camp when I was a kid.  It's a hope that we have more control over what happens to us in life than it appears on the surface.

[Deb]

Years ago a good friend of mine shared with me a bit of wisdom having to do with how to look at material that seems philosophically challenging. He told me to take what works for me and disregard the rest.

Sounds like good advice to me. Follow your gut. I just searched "intuition" on the Seth search engine and came up with numerous interesting quotes about critical faculties, intuitional truths, intuitional knowledge, and the intellect. Especially Session 380 from TPS1. https://findingseth.com/q/intuition/

Two things that are always in the back of my mind are: 1) much of what Seth  said was directed to specific people, and usually to Jane and Rob who were asking Seth questions (books like NoPR and NoME were for a broader audience). We may be made of the same stuff, but we are also unique individuals on our own paths, so some of the advice may not apply. 2) there was some distortion (and censoring) of the materials due to Jane's religion hangups and who knows what else. But we seem to be able to sense when something is just not right. Maybe we need to start a new topic on Distortions in the Materials? I think even Rob, who was co-editor with Jane in deleting some sessions, seems to have had trouble knowing the difference.

I have not made Seth into my "religion," I don't want or need a religion, but the materials resonate with me like nothing else I've read before and am constantly examining my life experiences from a perspective of how Seth said things work. I don't think he's said anything that could be harmful to any one or thing, so I'm good with it.

We need to remember that the Second Coming of Christ is reputed to be a nasty, violent event, with "gnashing of teeth". I am inclined to offer two fingers to someone who speaks of this.

Well, that's the Bible's version of the second coming, designed to frighten and control people. Seth's version is very different. Not an end, but a big leap forward for humanity.

"He will not come to reward the righteous and send evildoers to eternal doom."
—SS Chapter 21: Session 586, July 24, 1971

I think that it comes down to my hope that there's more to life than, "you're born, you live, you die".

That's how I got started on all of this. Raised Catholic but it never stuck, was an atheist or at the least agnostic for a very long time. Then one day it occurred to me that all of this -- the earth, the plants, animals, humans, education, children -- would be a giant waste if that's all there was.

I also like to hope that there's more to life than what I was brainwashed to believe during two summers at fire and brimstone born again christian bible camp when I was a kid.

Sorry you had to endure that. For some reason I'm surrounded by BA Christians and Baptists and had a really hard time with that in the beginning. Now they leave me alone. But it's hard to explain to your 3 year old when he comes home from a friend's house and asks, "Mommy, does it hurt when you burn in hell?"

[usmaak]

Sorry you had to endure that. For some reason I'm surrounded by BA Christians and Baptists and had a really hard time with that in the beginning. Now they leave me alone. But it's hard to explain to your 3 year old when he comes home from a friend's house and asks, "Mommy, does it hurt when you burn in hell?"

I still remember coming back home from camp that first year and telling my mom that I was sad because she was going to burn in hell.
She still remembers that as well.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi usmaak, Hi All,

Deb, you made some really great points in you latest post. Thanks for sharing them. 

Usmaak, when I asked you have you ever considered why you are drawn to this type of material, you replied as follows:

"I have.  I think that it comes down to my hope that there's more to life than, "you're born, you live, you die".  I also like to hope that there's more to life than what I was brainwashed to believe during two summers at fire and brimstone born again christian bible camp when I was a kid.  It's a hope that we have more control over what happens to us in life than it appears on the surface."


Thanks for sharing that.

I agree with you, at the present time, from a scientific standpoint, it appears that we are born, we live, we die, and that's all there is to life. That's a very nihilistic standpoint.

However, I believe that this scientific standpoint is very biased.  What I mean by this is that it appears to me that mainstream science and the medical profession refuses to seriously study topics like ESP, psychokinesis, Near Death Experiences and spontaneous healings.

The issue here, as I see it, is this; if they seriously studied these topics, they might conclude that this present nihilistic scientific standpoint, isn't really valid.

This being the case, I don't know that the present scientific standpoint really is valid, and because of this, I'm open to other ideas like Seth's.

jbseth

[usmaak]

This being the case, I don't know that the present scientific standpoint really is valid, and because of this, I'm open to other ideas like Seth's.

I hear and agree.  I've been reading Seth since the late 80s.  I've read every one of the books at least once, and Seth Speaks and Nature of Personal Reality more times than I can count.  I was into Abraham for a while, but at least to me, it seems like a fraud.  I've read all sorts of books that offer specific methods and/or exercises to achieve enlightenment, but with poor results.  But I suppose that going into it with the belief that it is all fake doomed me to failure.

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak,

I would say that if you went into it with the belief that it is all fake, then I would expect your experience to be that it was all fake. 

Assuming that this is what actually occurred for you, then I would say that this should have demonstrated that what Seth says in NOPR has some validity. 

jbseth

[usmaak]

Hi usmaak,

I would say that if you went into it with the belief that it is all fake, then I would expect your experience to be that it was all fake. 

Assuming that this is what actually occurred for you, then I would say that this should have demonstrated that what Seth says in NOPR has some validity. 

jbseth

Either that, or it demonstrated that it's all fake. 

[LarryH]

There are so many religions out there, and hey, I just happen to live in a country where the most popular one is the one that Seth always talks about. 

Here's another one Seth talks about (from TPS, book 7): "Each'...person is born there with a private natural religion--one that rises from the springs of the individual psyche, and one that provides an easy, custom-made method of dealing with inner and outer reality. It is important, therefore, that such persons rediscover their natural heritage, and put themselves in touch once more with this inner, natural 'religion.' "

[jbseth]

Hi LarryH, Hi All,


Hey LarryH, thanks for that Seth quote on natural religion, I really like it and I've never heard it before.

"Each'...person is born there with a private natural religion--one that rises from the springs of the individual psyche, and one that provides an easy, custom-made method of dealing with inner and outer reality. It is important, therefore, that such persons rediscover their natural heritage, and put themselves in touch once more with this inner, natural 'religion.' " 

jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

usmaak, in your last reply, you said; "Either that, or it demonstrated that it's all fake."

Yes, and you're absolutely correct about that.


I would say sometimes experience leads belief (I stuck my hand in a fire and I got burned; now I have a belief that my hand will get burned, if I stick it in a fire) but I also think that sometimes belief leads experience.

I'm trying to think of a good example of where belief leads experience but at the moment, the only thing that I can come up with, is an example from an old episode of the TV series, "Kung Fu".

In one particular episode, Caine, the main character, is in the monastery and he's told that he must walk across a thin wooden beam, in order to cross, what appears to be a 15 foot pool of boiling water or acid. The liquid is bubbling and as he's crossing the pool, suddenly human bones float up to the surface. When Caine see's these this, he gets really nervous and as a result of this, he falls into the pool of liquid.

Now, it turns out that this pool only contained bubbling water at normal temperature. The floating bones were intentionally released from the bottom of the pool by Caine's Master, at a certain point as Caine crossed the pool.  His Master then tells Caine, to learn from this lesson, that things are not always what they appear to be.

Here, I'd say that Caine "believed" that the pool contained a deadly liquid, which it didn't and because of this, he got really nervous when he saw the bones surface and fell in. Had he known that the liquid was just bubbling water at normal temperature, he probably wouldn't have fallen into the pool.

I think that many of us have probably experienced something like this, at some point during our lives.

jbseth

[usmaak]

I don't remember that episode, but it's been 45 years since I've seen that show.  But I like it.  Very deep.

And I'm certainly not trying to be contrary. 

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak,

Yeah, no problem.  I really liked this show too. At the time, more so for the great Kung Fu fight scenes,  but as I got older, more so for the wisdom.

Apparently this episode was in Season 1 and was called, "Superstition" (see attached website).

Sometimes I'm not sure why I remember some of the things that I do.  I haven't seen this show in a very long time.


http://the-haunted-closet.blogspot.com/2009/04/superstition-kung-fu-1973.html


jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

I see the Buddhist who says that there is no God, there is reincarnation after death and once you've dealt with your karma and grown spirituality then there's Nirvana and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the Christian, standing on his box, preaching out to the crowd, saying, "You must accept Jesus as your Savior, or you will burn forever in the fires of hell." and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the scientist, who scorns the Christians and all those crazy "New Age" people and he tells you that science has all the answers and there is no God, you are born, you live, you die and that's all there is to it, and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the people who believe in the Seth information and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

If you look for it, there appears to be fallacies in all of these belief systems.

At this very moment, I think that each and every one of us holds a very unique individual belief system and furthermore these belief systems evolve and change as we go through life.  I also think that "maybe", reality itself actually encompasses all of these belief systems.

jbseth

[LarryH]

There are seven billion "faces of God", and that is just the collection of earthly human conceptions of God, including the conceptions of God by atheists. Each one is a little different from all the rest. Which one is closest to correct? The only conclusion that I can come up with is that we are all wrong. And that's OK.

[usmaak]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

I see the Buddhist who says that there is no God, there is reincarnation after death and once you've dealt with your karma and grown spirituality then there's Nirvana and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the Christian, standing on his box, preaching out to the crowd, saying, "You must accept Jesus as your Savior, or you will burn forever in the fires of hell." and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the scientist, who scorns the Christians and all those crazy "New Age" people and he tells you that science has all the answers and there is no God, you are born, you live, you die and that's all there is to it, and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

Then I see the people who believe in the Seth information and I ask myself is that reality, and in response, I say I don't know, but it seems to be a belief system.

If you look for it, there appears to be fallacies in all of these belief systems.

At this very moment, I think that each and every one of us holds a very unique individual belief system and furthermore these belief systems evolve and change as we go through life.  I also think that "maybe", reality itself actually encompasses all of these belief systems.

jbseth

I really like this.  A lot.  I mean it made me sit back and think.  It is easy to call out someone else's beliefs when they are so obviously (to me) ridiculous or false, but my truths aren't beliefs.  They are real!  Seth says it much more eloquently than I just did.  I remember reading it.

I'll admit that I have a difficult time seeing science as a belief system.  I'll admit that I have a tough time seeing medicine as a belief system.  I mean I have actual proof that these things are real.  I just watched doctors save my mom's life no more than five months ago.  But I would willingly scoff at someone who said that they prayed for her and that is why she recovered.

It is certainly something deep and profound for me to ponder.

But still, there has to be something that is not a belief or part of a belief system.  There has to be something that is a real and 100% true universal law.  Right?  Right??

[LarryH]

There has to be something that is a real and 100% true universal law.  Right?  Right??

Right. Probably. The problem is that even if we accept a 100% true universal law, we are accepting our individual conception of that law, and that conception is limited by our ability to grasp it from within our reality.

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

But still, there has to be something that is not a belief or part of a belief system.  There has to be something that is a real and 100% true universal law.  Right?  Right??

To be honest, I don't know.  I think that many people want there to be something that is a real and 100% true universal law, but I don't know that there is one, or necessarily that there has to be one.


"According to Seth" (as I understand him) there are "root assumptions" that provide the basis for how various realities operate. For example, gravity is a "root assumption" of our physical world reality. This is why an apple falls to the ground, when it falls from a tree. This is also why we don't fly like birds.

However, in other realities, like dream realities, this root assumption doesn't apply; which explains why people sometimes have the experience of flying in their dreams.

Again, "according to Seth" (again, as I understand him) the one universal truth, the one universal reality, is "All That Is".


jbseth

From Deb: I just modified this post to move the misplaced "close quote" code. Sorry, I'm a nerd. Let me know if you want me to stop.

[Deb]

"I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss."
~Cypher, The Matrix

Scientific and medical successes are easier to demonstrate as 'real' with equipment and experiments that produce consistent and material results. Not so with religion. But then...

"I have mentioned earlier the peculiar problems of your scientists as with tools and instruments they attempt to reduce reality to their terms. Any instruments made on your plane are like your outer senses, constructed to perceive camouflage patterns. The instruments of the scientists, and the outer senses themselves, are camouflage patterns and cannot, and never will, dissect themselves."
—TES1 Session 37 March 23, 1964

We've seen that doctors and medical procedures can heal -- or help the body heal itself. Then you get someone like Anita Moorjani who is on their deathbed and does a 180 with no explanation (other than her own), and that tells me there's more going on here than meets the eye.

I can sit at my desk and pick up a glass or a stapler or pen and they are real to me. And to anyone else that would visit my desk. Seth explains that, but I can't completely believe his explanation unless I give in to faith because I like demonstrable proof. Quantum mechanics DOES say objects in our material space are not solid and are made of energy and lots and lots of space, so there's the comfort of validation there.

"If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet. Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real."
~Niels Bohr

Why do we only have science and religion? Reality is looking more like a fork in the road to me than a tree with branches. Well, there's the Seth branch. And YES, root assumptions are big, no pun intended. Well, maybe.

I thought this was a fun article, though not much new there: https://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/09/27/this-is-the-world-of-quantum-physics-nothing-is-solid-and-everything-is-energy/

Seth did say something like that even though our current plane is a camouflage one, that does not devalue it or our existence, and our materializations of matter are real. At least here, for us. I wish I could pin down the quote.

I don't think too deeply about this very often, maybe because I swallowed the amnesia pill (I've been called an overachiever), although I do often take a second to look around at my surroundings and consider and marvel that I created it. I've done that in lucid dreams too. It's a pretty amazing feeling.

BTW this poem just popped in to my radar tonight, hours after I'd started drafting this post. I've been working on something new and exciting from Mary Dillman, which will be available pretty soon, but it brought this poem to me and I thought it was relevant. I'll let you know when the new "something" is available. In my proofreading, I realize it will answer a lot of questions that have been asked here on SoS. Now, back to the poem: Jane rejected religion and totally embraced science at a certain age, like a lot of us, and I think this poem is a wink at her about-face.

Science
Science convinces me of magic
more each day.
To think that you and I,
the tiniest blade of grass,
and highest mountain,
the smallest ant
and the Empire State Building
(and all the shops, streets,
and people in the modern-day Manhattan),
all exist because
some elemental dice
just happened to
fall together right!
Dice thrown by no hand
or intent,
because neither were
invented yet.

Jane Roberts, If We Live Again Or, Public Magic and Private Love

I think I'll put this book on my nightstand for when I wake up at 3 am and am tempted to catch up on the news.

PS The "universal law" thing has me intrigued. Now I want to research that. I know Seth mentioned there are root assumptions or laws in most or all realities, but I would think there would be a thread that ties them all together and my brain is telling me I've read something about this...

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,


usmaak, in reply #43 you said:

"I'll admit that I have a difficult time seeing science as a belief system.  I'll admit that I have a tough time seeing medicine as a belief system.  I mean I have actual proof that these things are real.  I just watched doctors save my mom's life no more than five months ago.  But I would willingly scoff at someone who said that they prayed for her and that is why she recovered. "


I think that the trick here is to figure out, what are those things that are "real" (gravity seems to be real in this physical world) and those things that we only believe to be real (as in Caine believing that the pool contained acid).

For science and the medical profession, there are many things that these institutions tell us are real, which, in fact, appear to be real. However, because of this, I think that this sometimes blinds us to those things that these institutions tell us are real, but, in fact, may not necessarily be real.

jbseth

[Jack]

There may be potential evidence that has not been discussed yet under this topic.

Summary (TL;DR):

Maybe evidence of the return of Paul can be linked to someone who is said by some to come before him.  Some call this first person the Antichrist; some do not.  Figuring out who this person is (assuming he really exists) could give us a time frame for Paul's emergence.  According to several prophets, both should already be here, and one should be well known by now.  And maybe there will be some interaction between these two people that is tied to an unusual global event, defined in various ways over the years by various prophets, which might provide further evidence of Paul's appearance if/when this event occurs.


Details::

I am not an expert on Seth, or on any of the related things I'm interested in that have led to these comments.

However, after having learned from personal experience that time is not linear and the future can be seen and described to some degree, I have been looking at this topic for a while now.

The first point to make is perhaps obvious.  In the framework in which we exist, the majority of us will not recognize the reincarnated Paul for who he is, at least not while he's alive.  Consider all the things you've heard and read, whether from the Christian Bible, or from Seth, or from another source.  People will not generally know who this reincarnation of Paul is; even if they know the man personally, they may not recognize him.  Seth specifically said he will not generally be known for who he is.  Seth would not present a name, a country of birth, or a date of birth.  It's clear, it's just not going to be obvious who this person is, and there seems to be some amount of control, or direct guidance if you will, from the higher levels on keeping this knowledge mostly hidden.  However, Seth said he will generally not be known for who he is.  Generally.  Seth didn't say "not a single person will know him for who he is in this drama".  So maybe a few of us will know who he is, and maybe even meet him or even work with him.

It seems to me Paul will be working with a lot of people over time, even if few of those people realize who he is in this drama.  Some of those people will likely come from communities trying to understand life better, such as the one built around this website and its forums.  While it's fascinating to try to figure out when he will emerge, who he might be, and what he might be like, maybe the most important thing is to keep trying to understand life better, and to do what we can to help bring about the future life I think many of us see in Seth's words.

I believe Seth said something along the lines of other prophets have been, and will continue to be, describing what is to come, and who.  So perhaps we may look at various sources to see where to find our evidence of the return of Paul.  It would seem that each prophet would have some pieces of the puzzle; some would overlap; some would have a piece only provided by them, and might skip over pieces clearly defined elsewhere.  Each would have some clarity, some omissions, and some obscurity and distortion, to mask their descriptions of events so that we may learn.  Each would have people who relate to their words.  But, if we were to be given all the details with undeniable clarity and accuracy, what then would we learn?  Perhaps each prophet has a precise set of ideas to put forth, a part of the whole, with a bit of distortion (probably intentional from a higher level) to keep it from being too easy.

Think about it.  Distortion.  It has its uses in educating us all.  I believe Seth said the "second coming" is quite distorted as described in the Christian religion.  Further, he said that Paul's tendencies 2,000 years ago were known at a higher level.  Those tendencies were necessary or useful, and they helped lead to the Christian religion developing in a certain way that eventually included distortions.  And this was according to plan in some way.  To me, this indicates those tendencies towards distortions were appropriate in the framework that created Christianity, so we would learn from what became the Christian religion.  So Distortion, with a capital "D" is part of the curriculum on our little planet schoolroom.

If we consider the distortion that, by design, is likely built into each prophet's revelations, we have to put a puzzle of evidence together wherein some pieces just don't fit.  And they don't fit by design - not by design or intention of the prophet at our level here, but maybe at the prophet's entity's higher level, or at the level of the design of our framework.  However, I think if we work at it and try to feel it out, we can learn to understand that which fits and has light in it, and how to ignore that which does not.  It's a kind of "reading between the lines".  This is not a particularly straightforward or scientific method, but it has helped me feel like I have improved my understanding of some of the puzzle over time.

A consideration for us, and maybe for the reincarnated Paul, might be this:  what distortions will this reincarnation of Paul bring this time?  Certainly from Seth's description, the results of Paul's adventures will not be so "bad" this go-round (as compared to the life created around the Christian religion, with all the activities and ideas connected to it that don't seem very "Christian").  We can hope "Paul's second coming" will be a "good thing", while still keeping our awareness as to it being simply another step in our curriculum on our planet.  Of course "good" and "bad" in this context are simply a common way of describing something that doesn't exist, yet might be perceived that way on our level.

A lot of the thinking around this reincarnation of Paul, "the second coming", revolves around the Christian religion and a particular event.  So what does that religion say?

This area is one of my many weak points.  The distortions of time, translations, and manipulations are so strong it's hard for me to be too interested in the Christian religion, even though I believe there was more light in it when it was young than there is now.  My somewhat limited knowledge of it at least tells me we are expecting not one, but two primary people to show up at the "second coming".

The Christian religion's two people are The Antichrist and Christ.  I believe their prophecy shows the Antichrist will be hard to distinguish from their version of Christ, at least at first.  I think they show that the Antichrist and Christ will interact while in physical form.  Their event is the "rapture", but it's not likely to be as described and their explanations of it don't seem to relate at all to what Seth has described for our future.  But, I suspect there was once more light behind what was seen and what was written.  Their prophets were looking quite far into the future, with no context as to what they were seeing.  Then there's time, translations, manipulations and distortions added one upon the other.

And what do some other prophets say?

Seth:  I don't know that I've come across anything from him about two people.  However, his description of Paul, both in the past and for this new emergence, is amazing in its depth and what seems to be clarity.  I don't recall Seth tying Paul's return to any unusual and specific events.

Ruth Montgomery (on Wikipedia.com):  Her two people are The Antichrist and I think eventually the Christ (it's been quite a while since I read her books, and I no longer have them).  Her event seems tied to what she describes as the "axis shift".  I don't remember if she put a time frame on her prediction, but it seems like her Antichrist was going to show up in the 1990's, and maybe become more well known a little later.  I believe the book having a pretty good description of the Antichrist was "Herald of a New Age".  Here's a forum post with some quotes about him from her book "The World to Come" (projectavalon.net) (search on "anti-christ").  Her event is partially described in her book, "Strangers Among Us" (links to rense.com for a section from the book):

"It is like a marvelous solar flare that would bring all out of their houses to watch, and to tell their grandchildren about..."

Jeane Dixon (on Wikipedia.com):  The Antichrist and the Christ (it's also been a long time since I read books on her, and I no longer have them either).  Her prediction is from an unusual vision which may also describe a coming event.  Her vision tied this upcoming drama to ancient Egyptian times, and to Joseph and dreams.  In Ruth Montgomery's book on Jeane Dixon, "A Gift of Prophecy", it seems Dixon understood her vision to be referring to the second of the two (Christ).  It was "The vision which Jeane Dixon considers to be the most significant and soul-stirring of her life".  If I remember correctly, in "My Life and Prophecies: Her Own Story as Told to Rene Noorbergen" (amazon.com) she reversed herself and said her prior vision was about the Antichrist.  I got the impression Jeane Dixon's changed interpretation might have been heavily filtered.

Here is a copy of Dixon's vision from "A Gift of Prophecy" (greatdreams.com).  It has some typing errors in it, but I think it's a pretty accurate copy of the vision.

In the vision, Dixon says this child was born on February 5, 1962.  It seems she based this birth date on having the vision on that day.  This would make him 56 years old in 2018.  She said "I knew within my heart. "here is the beginning of wisdom"".

She goes on to say "Before the close of the century he will bring together all mankind in one all-embracing faith. This will be the foundation of a new Christianity, with every sect and creed united through this man who will walk among the people to spread the wisdom of the Almighty Power".

This sounds something like what Seth says the drama around the reincarnated Paul will be.  Seth says he replaces religions by undermining them, Dixon says they all get united.  In the end, the result might be kind of the same thing, so maybe they are referring to the same person in the same drama.

She then says "His power will grow greatly until 1999, at which time the people of this earth will probably discover the full meaning of the vision."  So either her timing is off or she's completely wrong.  Timing is hard, so maybe later she will be shown to be correct if she and Seth are describing the same drama.  If she got the birth date anywhere near correct, her protagonist only has so much time left, so this may help us narrow the time frame for the reincarnated Paul to emerge.

The coming event could be related to this part of her vision:

"Just above the horizon was the brightest sun that she had ever seen, glowing like a golden ball. Splashing from the orb in every direction were brilliant rays which seemed to be drawing the earth toward it like a magnet."

Paul Solomon (on Wikipedia.com):  He described the coming of one person and a counter to that person, a man he calls John Peniel.  Solomon doesn't say John Peniel is the reincarnation of Paul, but rather of John the Beloved.  But he seems to give him the same mission in life, so perhaps this is some of that "useful" distortion I mentioned above.  From my view, Paul Solomon's John Peniel and Seth's reincarnation of Paul may be one and the same. 

Solomon also describes an unusual globally significant event occurring while his two predicted men are alive.  In this reading (wisdomofsolomon.com), Solomon says John Peniel appears after the Antichrist appears, and like other prophets and the Christian religion, he says they'll be hard to tell apart:

"He will, however, become a leader of light, only when that one who appears as a savior (anti-Christ).  When he appears, John also will appear as his adversary. But it will be difficult for you to know at first, the one from the other."

Solomon goes on to say he will rise to prominence fairly fast:

"And John will make himself known sometime after the 2nd battle has begun to rage.  And he will be seven years in making himself known about the earth to the extent that he will be considered a figure of international import."

In this reading (wisdomofsolomon.com), Solomon again says they will difficult to tell apart:

"There will come two, then, who appear as saviors. This, then, will be the difficulty, to distinguish who is the world savior."

In the same reading, in the same paragraph, Solomon goes on to discuss the event:

"During the time of this bloodshed or confusion, look for another event which will distract the attention of the entire world. This is a celestial event, the coming of a light from the sky. This event will be so great in magnitude as to distract the attention of the world from war and from fighting. It will give to all men common cause, greater than that which is the concern of the war. For it will seem to every man that the very existence of the earth will be endangered. 

His light as it comes in the sky will be brighter than that of the Sun. Because of the magnitude, the Sun will appear to turn black. It will be as if it had collapsed giving its power to that which comes.

Then two will stand, one drawing attention to himself as [if] he were a savior of the world.  He will seem to have answers and means of protection. His approach will be one which will attempt to destroy the incoming object.

Then you will know the savior by the fact that His attention is turned to the individual. It will seem foolish to most that man will be invited to accept and to welcome the incoming light."

This could relate to Seth's description of Paul's work having to do with the individual.

As far as evidence for the return of Paul, here is another time frame clue.  There is one reading I've seen, which I haven't been able to find again, where Solomon says John Peniel is not aware of his identity at this time.  This would indicate that Seth's returning Paul was alive at the time of that reading.  Paul Solomon died in 1994, so Seth's returning Paul would have to be at least about 24 years old as of 2018.  Here (again) is the Wikipedia page on Paul Solomon (wikipedia.com).  See the section heading "John of Peniel and the Second Coming", which refers to this reading, but has nothing in the footnotes that link to that exact reading.  (I'm not referring to the reading where Solomon says Peniel will realize his own identity when he opens the Hall of Records (wisdomonofsolomon.com), but to another reading I can't find now.)

On page 6 of a PDF from a Solomon reading in 1988 (paulsolomon.com), he again indicates John Peniel was alive during Solomon's lifetime, further narrowing the time frame of Peniel's life:

"Now understand that the one we refer to as John [Peniel] is not necessarily a single man upon whom is placed the burden for bringing a New Order of life to the earth, although such a man does exist. The reincarnation of John the Beloved walks upon the earth in this time."

This would make John Peniel, or the reincarnated Paul, at least around 30 years old in 2018.

Further aging Peniel is this reading, #0101, done in 1972, which would make him at least around 46 years old in 2018, [see the first reading  here (wisdomofsolomon.com).  Reading #0101 also shows the same restrictions Seth had on revealing Paul's identity.

"John, the Beloved, lives, and is this day on your plane. That which would identify him would not be given at this time.  For he will present himself to you at such time as is expedient, both for his welfare and for yours."

On the above link containing reading #0101, is a second reading, #0850, which says Peniel is not his given name:

"He will be called John. The last name is not by birth Peniel, but that name adopted for its meaning "where I met Him face to face." And (he) will use that name in the ministry and will be known of men not because of his use of the name, but because of his teaching and his work among men."

If Solomon's John Peniel is the same person as Jeane Dixon's Christ and Seth's reincarnating Paul, he's been around a while. 

I am aware of at least couple of people who either publicly claim to be John Peniel, or use a version of the name, and have discussed the possibility they are the one who is predicted to come.

One, Jon Peniel, wrote some books and taught.  I think his most known book was "The Children of the Law of One and the Lost Teachings of Atlantis".  He died in 2002, so it seems he was probably not the one Cayce or Solomon was talking about, unless they are referring to what is really two different people.  (Here's what appears to have been his site (atlantis.to); search the page for "death".)  Here's a page about this Peniel (gatheringspot.net) that includes an Edgar Cayce reading about a John Peniel.

Another one, John Davis, uses the name John of Peniel in his work.  He's still alive.
Here's an interview with John Davis (beliefnet.com).
Here's his business website (corporateactionhero.com).
Here's an Amazon link to a book about him (I haven't read it).

Joseph McMoneagle (on Wikipedia.com):  In the "The Jesus Transcripts" from his book "The Ultimate Time Machine", he mentioned two time tracks intersecting and this being part of the reason this Jesus was reincarnating at various times here.  This intersecting of two time tracks might be the celestial event Paul Solomon described, the Bible's "rapture", and Jeanne Dixon's earth moving towards the brightest sun she'd ever seen.  Two time tracks intersecting.  This time track intersection may even be related to Ruth Montgomery's axis shift.  Time and time tracks must involve energy.  If two intersect, perhaps one will be different and the handling of it might involve a better understanding of energy and light, which could relate to what Solomon's John Peniel proposes in the future.

Here's a quote from the section from McMoneagle's book about the two time tracks intersecting, where "this cogent Being" refers to Jesus:
"Joe: I just keyed into something else now that's really interesting. The coming together of two realities, isn't too far off in the . . . ah . . . the far-flung future. It's not too far off and that is apparently one of the reasons why the . . . this cogent Being has been going and coming over the years. There are two time tracks intersecting soon. (Soon in this case is relative to man's history, could be a year, could be a thousand years.)"  (From: "McMoneagle, Joseph. The Ultimate Time Machine (Kindle Locations 1345-1347). Crossroad Press & Macabre Ink Digital. Kindle Edition.")

There are probably more examples that would support this line of reasoning.  But, with all the information available from so many sources, we can probably find something to support just about anything you can think of to explain the past and the future.

However, my point again is this:  I believe we are not looking for one man; we are looking for two.  One will show up first and will become well known.  Then the second one shows up - the reincarnation of Paul.  It seems their time is tied to an unusual event that occurs after both are well known, even if they are not known for who they truly are in this drama.  They interact around this event, and perhaps for a time leading up to it.

So where is this evidence of the return of Paul?  If some of the prophets were correct, maybe it's right in front of us.

In my view, part of Ruth Montgomery's position was that of describing this first person in a lot of detail.  There are other descriptions, but as I recall, hers was pretty detailed.  However, I'm sure she also introduced the requisite distortions to sift through. 

If there is so much information about the first of the two, maybe some of us could understand who he is, especially if the information was correct about his growing in power before the second one appears.  I think it can probably be understood, by at least a few people, who he is.  Certainly from all the prophesies that I'm aware of, most people will not recognize either of these two, so I would not expect to find a completely obvious description of either one anywhere.  The distortions and restrictions placed on what we have been told, what prophets have been allowed to understand, will make certain of this.

Of course, neither of these two is "good".  Neither is "evil".  These two simply play their part, as we all expect them to, as we have all agreed to play our parts in this time.  The idea behind these words is not to "find this first person and stop him"; it is simply to recognize where we are in the drama by realizing the first of the two can possibly be known, and he only has so much time in one lifetime.  By recognizing him, and knowing the first and second must interact at some point, the possible time frame for the emergence of the second one narrows further.

But, If people will have a bit of trouble telling the first one from the second one, and we, as people who believe some, or a lot, of the ideas Seth described, then what type of person would be somewhat similar to the person Seth described as the reincarnation of Paul, while being extremely different in major areas of thought?  I would think both would at least appear to want to help people.  If Christians and others are to be confused as to which is which, what type of person would mainstream Christians consider to be a Christ-like figure, given their continued belief in a religion that has been distorted?  I'm guessing the first person would not challenge their belief systems, much, if any.  At least at first.  Whether he would have a much clearer (in our view) understanding of life or not, might not be the point - maybe he would understand as much, or even more than Paul, and would choose not to discuss it.  My guess is this would not be the case.

Further, the definition of "Antichrist" might simply be based on one's perspective.  This might be obvious, but I'll go ahead and mention it.  If we believe the reincarnation of Paul to be the 3rd personality tied to the "Christ" entity, then this first person to show up would be anti-Christ, in the sense that he's doing things or supporting ideas that might be opposing what Paul is promoting and/or doing.  From the view of followers of the Christian religion, the ideas and work Paul is likely associated with will be in direct opposition to what they've been taught to believe; and in their eyes, those beliefs are based on Christ's ideas.  Therefore, it seems the reincarnation of Paul is the Antichrist from the Christian religion's perspective.  So the more well known these two become, the more likely it is somebody's not going to be too happy about either one being alive and doing what they're doing.

So, if any of us were to feel like we knew who the first one, or the second one is, I think we would be remiss to point that person out publicly.  I think if any of us are to understand the identity of either one, we will understand it more clearly when we figure it out for ourselves.  If we are not to understand it, we will dismiss any idea anyone has about the existence and identity of the either of the two.  More importantly, if we could not prove any theory, would it be fair to name someone?  Everything I've ever seen indicates no one will be able to prove or clearly demonstrate either person is one or the other, and therein lies quite a learning experience for us all.  Even if someone could prove the identity of either one, that might bring harm to one or both of them.  I think this is not desirable for reasons beyond the simple idea of not harming others.  We, as a group of souls connected to lives on this planet, have called out for this drama, and so I think we should want to see both of the two play out their roles in this drama to see what we learn.  It doesn't seem like either will be causing pain, suffering, or death, as that would seem to make it extremely easy to stir people up against them.  It seems like this will be a drama of one set of ideas contrasted against another; at least for a while.  Hopefully whatever happens won't end up with anyone or any group trying to damage or destroy the lives other groups or people in any way.  But, there will probably always be a few people who want to rid the world of this well-known person, or that well-known person, but there may come a time when many people will want to forcibly remove one or both of these two from our drama.  I just don't think it's appropriate to contribute to that possibility.  In a more enlightened world, I think this self-imposed limitation of not publicly naming possible identities of either person would become completely unnecessary.  But we're not in that world yet.  I do realize this point is simply more of my opinion, and many may think it's a silly idea to refrain from publicly discussing something that might be important to understand.

Regardless of what we do or don't discuss publicly, just for a little fun, consider this:  What if the first and the second were both aware of their own role in this drama?  And what if each was aware of the other's role?  Now here's the fun part of these assumptions...what if they sat down together and discussed it to try to have the best outcome for all?  That's a conversation I'd like to hear!  I would expect Paul would be aware of both his and the first person's role.  But would the first be aware?  I would hope so - it seems far more interesting if he also understands what's going on.

Of course, there is the chance that I am wrong about all of this.

It is entirely possible all of the prophecies are part of a framework we all agreed to, and the framework is such that none of them accurately reflect the future.  In this possible framework, the various prophecies have enough bits of truth to lead us away from simply trusting ourselves, and towards looking outside of ourselves.  Maybe that is the one and only lesson of all these prophecies.

But that's not what it feels like to me.  I have looked into my own future more than once, in more than one way, and have seen exactly what was there; even if it often did not make any sense when I was looking at it, and it only became clear when my waking now caught up to that time which was seen from in the past.  Even if I am correct to some degree in all this, I think the big lesson will still be learning to recognize and trust ourselves.

It also feels to me like there really is an event that relates to all of this.  If this event does occur, and is significant, perhaps the things Paul will lead us to learn for ourselves will help us get through the event.  And perhaps this learning will contribute to our helping each other get through this event.  And as another by-product, this learning could help us realize for ourselves a higher understanding of who and what we are individually, which will then lead to the future described by Seth.  This could relate to the 1,000 years of peace as described in the Christian religion, and how it comes to be.

Consider that Seth's description of the level of improvement in a civilization in such a short amount of time seems unprecedented in our known history; at least in my limited knowledge of history.  We, as humans, are often slow to change unless forced to.  And the fewer people who are being forced to change, the less widespread the change is likely to be.  Some type of significant, global event, coinciding with the spread of ideas and methods Seth says Paul will help bring about, makes more sense than people just changing because they are learning something more useable in their lives.  This seems especially likely since these ideas and/or methods of Paul's will be contrary to what a great many people now believe to be true or useable.

This event that appears to be coming sounds challenging.  What if it's extremely challenging?  And what if the reincarnated Paul actually does help people handle it better?  I know this idea might be quite a reach, but is it possible the people who follow whatever it is that Paul will propose to learn and do for themselves are "saved" from the most difficult aspects of this event?  Maybe we won't fully understand what this could mean unless, or until, this event occurs.  But, it seems this could be what followers of the Christian religion are saying when they talk of being "saved" by Jesus Christ, even though they may not realize it.  Maybe the religion and its followers have "tuned in" to something that's there in our futures, but have a distorted description of it.  Given the descriptions of the event, and that we don't seem to have any records of a similar event in our past, some distortion could be expected from anyone trying to "see" or figure out the event before it occurs.  If we look at "Salvation in Christianity" (wikipedia.com) on Wikipedia, there is quite a lot of disagreement about it. 

This is especially interesting if we consider McMoneagle's description of two time tracks intersecting - what if following Paul's proposals puts someone on one time track, and not following them, or following whatever the Antichrist (the first of the two men) proposes, puts them on another one?  What a person had done in the past would make no difference, as long as that person "believed" (and acted upon) what Paul was saying around an event that might seem like "judgment day".  I don't have any evidence or any source to point to on this one, but I thought of it a short time back, and thought I'd include it here since this upcoming event appears to be such a major consideration in our future and in identifying Paul. 

Further, if there are two time tracks, and if it's an actual choice that determines the track we progress along, it's possible only one track results in what sounds like a more evolved human race that Seth has described.  An interesting quote from the top of the Wikipedia page noted above, in the "Summary" section, is "According to Saint Peter the Apostle in Acts 4:12, Jesus Christ God is the unique way of truth and door of salvation...".  Could the "door of salvation" be a time track?  However, I don't think this is the case.  My guess is following whatever it is Paul proposes for us to learn for ourselves is related to handling this event in this lifetime (and the soul's longer term education), and we all follow the "evolved" or new time track.  Maybe the "door of salvation" is just going into this new time track.  But some of us follow it in the body we have when it occurs, and some of us decide that we've been here long enough in the body we have, and we later reincarnate in the new time track.  Either way, it's also possible whatever this event is might be a contributing factor itself to what Seth describes as a more advanced and capable human race.  By this I mean that since the event appears to involve energy and/or light, it might be a natural structural raising of the vibration of our planet in terms of how energy flows in our universe, and possibly by the nature of the higher vibration we are all raised in vibration.  Maybe if we want to be here in a physical body during the change, we'll need to raise our vibrations rather quickly to handle the new time track.  Like I said, this one might be quite a reach.

Regardless of how the framework of this drama is designed, and whether or not there is some major event, the one thing I am pretty sure of is that if these two men exist, neither of them will be, or are, quite what we expect.  If they are not what we expect, it will be much harder for anyone to figure out who they really are.

But I think a few will know.  Maybe some of us.

[Deb]

Holy cow, I've been trying to respond to your post for, well, too long. I'm just going to go with what I have so far. There was so much to explore and then I'd go down some rabbit holes and run out of time. So sorry if my response doesn't explore all the things you brought up in your provocative post.

Maybe evidence of the return of Paul can be linked to someone who is said by some to come before him.  Some call this first person the Antichrist; some do not.

It seems to me that the people talking about the Antichrist are mostly Christians, with maybe some of the channelers you mentioned. In what I've read so far of the Seth Materials, he never even suggested that and I couldn't find anything on the Seth search engine: https://findingseth.com . How would you define an Antichrist (just curious), what's your perspective? Growing up around a lot of Christians, I always pictured the Antichrist as being Satan, evil vs. good, like in Stephen King's The Stand. (Great book!)

Seth did say there were "others" coming before the return of the Christ personality, to prime the pump. Is the following what you were thinking about when you wrote "I believe Seth said something along the lines of other prophets have been, and will continue to be, describing what is to come, and who" ?

"Now there will be several born before that time who in various ways will re-arouse man's expectations. One such man has already been born in India, in a small province near Calcutta, but his ministry will seem to remain comparatively local for his lifetime.

"Another will be born in Africa, a black man whose main work will be done in Indonesia. The expectations were set long ago in your terms, and will be fed by new prophets until the third personality of Christ does indeed emerge."

—SS Chapter 21: Session 586, July 24, 1971

It makes sense to me that there would have to be predecessors around the planet because it would be, in my mind, impossible for just one person/personality to effect change on or unify so many different cultures on this planet, let alone so many religions and beliefs. Unless, as you say, there is some event big enough to unite humanity. Even the Christ event as we know it didn't do that and then Paul fell down on his job ("it was the errors that he made unwittingly that perpetuated some dangerous distortions." "...he will emerge once again, this time to destroy those distortions" "John and the historical Christ each  performed their rules and were satisfied they had done so. Paul alone was left at the end unsatisfied, and so it is about his personality that the future Christ will form"). (All from session 586)

I've been curious as to who these other prophets could be, if we've heard of any of them. Or even if some of the current-day channelers (and there seem to be a lot of them) could be one or more of them. The only "prophet" I've known to talk so in-depth about the return has been Seth, if you could call him a prophet in a non-religious sense. But I don't stray too far from Seth lately and have not been keeping up on other channelers.

Can you explain how you feel distortion has its uses in educating us all? I'm having a hard time seeing distortion in a positive light. Unless are you including camouflage reality as distortion? That definitely has a purpose for us here.

So maybe a few of us will know who he is, and maybe even meet him or even work with him.

Or maybe we Seth readers, already on the lookout, could suspect who he is. I have a feeling we average citizens are not supposed to consciously know and also wonder if there will be guides or speakers that will be in place specifically to facilitate this mystery man. Even then, they might not know on a conscious level what their role is.

I do think the purpose of Paul's 'return' ("but within him the three personality groupings will form a new psychic entity") is for the good of mankind as ATI's intent is benign and loving. As Seth said, "In the next century, the inner nature of man, with these developments, will free itself from many constraints that have bound it. A new era will indeed begin—not, now, a heaven on earth, but a far more sane and just world, in which man is far more aware of his relationship with his planet and of his freedom within time." Later on he talks about a metamorphosis on a human level and what that will mean: "Man's experience will be so extended that to you the species will seem to have changed into another." That all sounds wonderful to me, a giant leap for mankind. (Quotes still from 586.)

As far as the Christian version of the second coming... for me there is so much distortion, contrive and deleted material that it would be impossible to know what's even a shred of truth regarding anything in it.

I wonder if the people you mentioned (Montgomery, Dixon, Solomon) were just relying on the biblical version of the return with the Antichrist/Christ stuff, due to their own beliefs or background? Or the human belief in opposites?

Going offtrack a little, I looked up the meaning of Peniel and came up with a wiki on Penuel — "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Gen. 32:30 NIV) There's more to the story, but does he mean that God spared his life? I find that ironic that God will kill considering the Commandments.

Paul Solomon sounds like an interesting person, I'm always surprised when someone mentions a fairly prolific channeler and I've never heard of them before. He mentions that several figures have acted from this Christ consciousness, as Seth did also say that the Christ personality had visited at other times in our "history" but was not recognized for who he was. The whole paragraph on the Second Coming was especially interesting, sounding pretty close to what Seth described.

Solomon: "This person, who is referred to as John of Peniel, will then cause those already living to elevate to an equal level, enabling them to achieve Christ consciousness." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Solomon (ref. http://www.wisdomofsolomon.com/psr35.html 2009).

Seth: "(11:14) The metamorphosis mentioned earlier on the part of the third personality, will have such strength and power that it will call out from mankind these same qualities from within itself."

I wonder if Paul Solomon read any Seth?

What if the first and the second were both aware of their own role in this drama?  And what if each was aware of the other's role?

I imagine on some level they would be. Maybe not consciously, but the new and improved Christ personality is supposed to be a super power and will no doubt be connected with his inner self, entity and all the resources that go along with that. He will be known as a great psychic. Seth did say that John/Jesus/Paul did connect in dreams and knowledge in other ways,

"John the Baptist, Christ, and Paul were all connected in the dream state, and John was well aware of Christ's existence before Christ was born." Sess. 588

and the new one:

"That personality will indeed be multidimensional, aware of all its incarnations. It will not be oriented in terms of one sex, one color, or one race."

I'm trying to get a visual on that.

And what type of event do you suppose would be big enough to unite the world? Alien invasion? Asteroid? Maybe something we can't even imagine.

But I think a few will know.  Maybe some of us.

Maybe. Or maybe we'll just suspect.
Nice having a heads-up from Seth though.

I hope I see something while I'm still in this physical body.