is there death in non physical realities?

[chasman]

I have a question about Seth and death, and will very much appreciate any thoughts.

did Seth ever say that death only happens in physical reality?

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman,


That's a really great question. 

Let me stew on this for a day or so and I'll get back to you on this.



-jbseth

[chasman]

thank you jbseth.
you are very kind.

I value your thoughts greatly.

[Deb]

Wow, a great question and something I'd never thought about. I'm just doing a "drive by" post right now, but as usual Facebook topics often parallel those here and so I had to pipe in prematurely. I'm attaching a meme from Ron Card from this afternoon about death.

My understanding is that what we consider "death" here is really the expiration of the physical body (planned obsolescence). The personality ceases to occupy the physical body it's couched in (to borrow a word from Seth) and moves back to F2. The physical body breaks down and is recycled. Death is certainly a physical event, but Seth has said there are some realities that are not physical at all. They may have their own version of what we consider to be death, but Seth was very insistent that the personality itself does not die. So my feeling is that while there are many systems and many types of existence, they are also "schools" and not meant to be permanent homes. So they would have their own version of "death," which is really just transition from a system of reality back to source.

I'm getting a bunch of mental hits on quotes about this, I'll mull it over too and get back with something more solid.

[chasman]

thank you very much for your excellent reply Deb. 

(btw, I just searched for Seth's om quote. searched and searched. and could not find it. I was even specifically searching nopr at finding seth. no disco.)

and then I see jbseth found it, way to go jbseth, you rock, bro!!)

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman, Hi All,


While your question appears to be rather simple, I think that the answer to it is extremely complex and because of this, it is very difficult to answer.  While I won't say that I have an actual answer for you, I will share with you some of the issues that I've been thinking about.


First of all, in our reality it does appear that at the end of our lives, we die. Our awareness seems to leave our body and eventually our bodies do break down. But as Deb did point out, in "Seth Speaks" Seth does tell us that we don't die. Here I'm talking about Seth's discussion regarding the eternal validity of the soul or entity. So first of all there's that whole discussion; do we die or don't we.



Now, along with this, I've also been thinking about: 1) What exactly is life?, 2) What exactly is death?, 3) What actually constitutes a death in a physical reality?, and 4) What actually constitutes a death in a non-physical reality?  For example does the fact that an item contains consciousness mean that it has life?  If so, then what about a rock, it has consciousness, is it alive and if so, then does it die?  Maybe a rock does die, after a very long time when consciousness if finally pulled away from it. It's just that this takes so long in our reality (thousands or millions of years) that we just never do perceive it.



Along with this, in terms of your question, I've also been thinking about the many of the interesting ideas that Seth Jane and Rob have shared with us. This includes the existence of our reincarnational selves. For example in "Adventures in Consciousness", in Chapter 5, we learn that Rob had a reincarnational life at the time of Christ as a teacher by the name of Nebene. How would we classify Nebene's death?


I've also been thinking about probable lives. In "The Seth Material", Chapter 15, we learn from Seth about a probable life of Rob's, a man by the name of Dr. Pietra.  How would we classify Dr. Pietra's death?


After this, things really starts to get complex.


In "The Seth Material", Chapter 2, we learn about Rob and Jane's York Beach couple. Apparently Jane and Rob created these "fragments" from their negative and aggressive feelings. When Rob asked Seth who left the party first, Rob and Jane or the York Beach couple, Seth replied that the York Beach couple did. They just disappeared. Seth also said that they had no power to leave the place where they were born unless you gave it to them. How do we classify their existence? When they disappeared, did they disintegrate or move into some other reality? If they moved into some other reality, then did they die at the end of their life's and if so then how do we classify their deaths.


In "Seth Speaks", Chapter 7, Session 530, Seth talks about fragments and how, for example, we sometimes (sometimes unknowingly) send fragments of ourselves out to the seashore, for example. I have the same questions here. How do we classify the existence of these fragments? When they disappear, do they disintegrate or just move into some other reality? If they move into another reality, then did they die at the end of their life's and if so then how do we classify their deaths.


In Chapter 14 of "The Seth Material", we learn about Janes, "black thing". According to Seth, Jane created this black thing when she decided to do battle with all negative feelings. This "black thing" attacked her one night when she was sleeping. After being attacked, she managed to get away from it by diving back into her body which was laying on a bed; this sounds a little like an OBE or maybe a lucid dream.
Again, when it disappeared, did it disintegrate or just move back into some other reality? Or was it that Jane left its reality? Did it die at the end of its life's and if so then how do we classify its death.


In Chapter 9 of "Adventures in Consciousness", Jane tells us about her relationship with Oversoul Seven, one of the main characters in her "Oversoul Seven" book.  Here, Jane tells us that Oversoul Seven had attained his own kind of reality for her. She'd ask him for the next chapter in the book and suddenly it was all there in her mind and she'd write it down. She also says that she even asked him advice on some personal matters and he would respond to her just like he did for the book, in writing. This sounds to me almost like "automatic writing". Does Oversoul Seven actually have an existence in some reality like Seth? If so, does death occur in that reality? If so, how do we classify this type of death?



Now it gets really interesting.



In TES2, Session, 54, Seth tells us that, an entity "can decide to disintegrate". In regards to your question, how do we classify that?


In TES2, Session, 58, Seth tells us that, if an ego is exceptional, it can choose an option to return as a "great originator". In this case, it will become "a Buddha, a Christ, a Michelangelo", a hero in one field or another.  He also tells us that after this, rather than reincarnate, instead it opts to form,"with the inner self in an added gestalt" and as a result this it may, "give up its ego identification to a large degree for the purpose of giving its full energies to the store of the inner self". I don't know if this is what Seth was referring to when he said that an entity can disintegrate, but I think that it might be something else entirely. To the best of my knowledge, Seth never clarified this issue. In regards to your question, how do we classify that?


Once again, in TES2, Session, 58, Seth tells us that, other exceptional egos can choose instead to become entities of their own. When an ego chooses to become an entity, does it experience some form of death like transition? If so, in regards to your question, how do we classify that?



So unfortunately no, I don't have an answer to your question, but it is a very interesting question, indeed.  


-jbseth

[chasman]

thank you so much jbseth.
I will read this and reply again. 

[chasman]

thank you very much again for all you wrote jbseth.

my thoughts and opinions are:
I am very attached to people.
in physical reality.
some are alive.
and some have died. they have left physical reality.
I know that someday I will die.
and that its possible that before that,
other people that I love deeply, will die.

more than anything, I hope that death is not the end,
that I will see and be with the people that I love so much.
the Seth material (all of it, not only the book with that title),
gives me hope.
and I hope that there is no more death after we leave physical reality for the last time.
jbseth and Deb, I want to say thank you
to both of you again for all the superb wonderful
posts that you write.
Deb thank you again for having the forum.
you are both brilliant.
I feel very fortunate to have you both to ask for your thoughts on stuff.
and Deb, I read the blog by Matt from the Dependsa seminar.
loved it!!!

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman,

Many people in today's world, from all walks of life, are reporting that they have had NDE's (Near Death Experiences).  While each one of these NDE's is unique and different, there appear to be some common experiences amongst them.

During some of these NDE's, some people claim to have had an OBE (Out of Body Experience). Furthermore, during some of these OBE's, some people claimed to have seen things and heard things that they otherwise shouldn't have been able to.  I personally believe that this demonstrates the legitimacy of these experiences.

Another common experience that some people have, at some point during their NDEs, is that of travelling through "a tunnel" during their transition.

Along with this, another common experience that some people have had, is that of seeing, "a being of light". While some people think that this "being of light" is a guide or an Angel, others think that it's God or Jesus.

Another common experience that some people have had, is that of being loved and full of joy; to a level that is far beyond anything we experience here on Earth.

Finally, another common experience that some people have had, is that of meeting up with loved ones, friends and relatives, who have previously died.



For me, it is that validity of many of the OBE experiences, AND, the fact that there are several common NDE experiences by people, from all walks of life, that leads me to believe that these NDE experiences, are, in fact, real.

Given that then, when we die, I truly believe that we will meet up once again with many of our loved one's, friends and relatives who have passed on before us.


-jbseth

[Deb]

Dang, jbseth, I was going to mention NDEs too. We're on the same page. I've read several NDE stories in the past, but Anita Moorjani's entire book (Dying to be Me) was the most credible. Almost every story I've read about a person who died and came back, said they were reluctant to return here because the feeling of love and joy in the "death place" was so hard to turn their back on. They also say they no longer have a fear of death and look forward to returning to "that other place."

Two short personal stories:

My father died suddenly when I was 20. A year later I had to make a very difficult decision, difficult because I had feelings of responsibility to others. It was driving me nuts. One night my father came to me in a dream. He said he knew I was having a problem making a decision and wanted to help. I reminded him he was dead and asked where he was. He said he was not supposed to talk about that... but told me something that had never occurred to me, which helped me make my decision. At the time I was an atheist, didn't even think about anything spiritual, did not believe in life after death. It really made me rethink things.

My mother died 9 years later after a lengthy hospital stay (5 months!). She was in NJ, I was living in CA, so I kept flying back and forth. While she was in the hospital, she decided she wanted me to move her to CA when she got released and so I was working towards that, but she never made it out. Not long after she died, I saw her standing near the foot of my bed in CA, looking very confused. It was like she was all ready to move in, but she didn't quite know what was going on. I told her she had died, and there were things far better than CA for her, and that she needed to go towards them. Then she was gone.

Since I have not had my own NDE, I can't say conclusively what Seth repeatedly said about the eternal validity of the soul. But it makes much more sense to me than us being accidental inhabitants of this planet, spend a lifetime learning, and then our light gets snuffed out when we die. I can imagine being greeted upon death by those we love, and sitting around talking about what a great job we did acting out our roles on Earth.

Now, something else just occurred to me. Do you suppose we dream in Framework 2?

[jbseth]

Hi Deb,

Yeah, Anita's book is incredible. I really liked it. 


That's really interesting about how your father came to you in a dream and how your Mother also showed up in your bedroom. 

Here's an interesting coincidence. When my Mom was 14, her stepmother died. The night her Stepmother died, my Mom told me that she saw her Stepmother, in spirit form, suddenly just appear in her bedroom. My Mom said that she thinks her Stepmother probably showed up to say goodbye.

Your story and hers both sound very similar to each other.


About 2 years after I was born, my Mom has a hysterectomy. During that operation she had a NDE. At that time, nobody talked about these kinds of things, but my Mom told me that during this experience she felt like she was floating and said that it was the most wonderful kind of experience she ever had. She also said that she didn't want to leave it.


Yeah, I agree. I think that we do dream in Framework 2. As I recall, I believe Framework 1 is physical reality.


-jbseth

[Deb]

Your story and hers both sound very similar to each other.

Yes, they do! My mother did not look solid, she was sort of a colorless semi-transparency, hard to describe, but it was dark in my room.

I don't see dead people... very often, lol. I remember seeing people once when I was little. No telling how old I was, we were poor so I probably had to sleep in a crib longer than kids these days. I had just been put to bed and I was crying because I wanted to stay up and watch TV with my parents. Again in a dark room, I looked up and saw a man and a woman standing at the foot of my crib looking down at me. They were dressed in sort of Victorian clothing and had that same kind of look as my mother. The woman looked sympathetic and concerned (why are you crying?) but it freaked me out and I started screaming. My father came in, "G-damn it, if you want to watch tv that badly, then ok" and carried me out. I don't think I had the words to explain why I was screaming.

I think that we do dream in Framework 2

I wonder. Framework 2 is non-physical, I would guess no need for sleep. But then we're supposed to be really good at creating there, so I guess if we want dreams we can make them.

[chasman]

thank you again Deb and jbseth.

I am extra very grateful to you both for everything you have said.
you are both so kind intelligent and generous.

I have been deeply troubled about death, since I was a child.
I need to change that.
your thoughts help me.

I talked to the man who first told me about Seth (in the 70's), about 6 years ago.
I had not talked to him since the 70's.
I asked him what he thought about Seth now.
he said he thinks that Seth's explanations about everything,
is the most likely way that things really are.
(please excuse my grammar. I'm doing the best I can here for wording this.)

he said that not long ago his wife and one of his daughters died.
when they died, he did not cry.
he said when we die, its like when you get a new car.
you just change bodies and reincarnate.

I listened to Dying to Be Me, on Audible. I liked it alot.

thats all I have to say at the moment.
peace and love and many other good things,
Charlie

[Deb]

I have been deeply troubled about death, since I was a child.

Since people in my family tended to have children older than the norm, I've experienced a lot of deaths in my lifetime, beginning at an early age. But while death has been a "natural" part of my life, it's still really hard when someone dies (some harder than others) because while Seth says our personalities survive death, we really miss someone who has died. There's no way around the heartache of missing someone who is no longer in your life, and the idea that they still exist "somewhere" is small consolation.

I came across this article in Quora this morning. It's a women telling the story of her very young child talking to some invisible personality while in his crib. It reminded me of my experience.

Sorry but you must log in to view spoiler contents.

One of the people commenting on the article suggested she look into DOPS (the Division of Perceptual Studies) at the University of Virginia Medical School. Maybe there's something there for you? There are videos on the page that I haven't watched yet.

"The researchers at DOPS are particularly interested in studying phenomena related to consciousness clearly functioning beyond the confines of the physical body, as well as phenomena that are directly suggestive of post-mortem survival of consciousness."

They have a page of books that have been produced on the topic, including a few books on the study of Near Death Experiences, Reincarnation and Mind and Body. This page has stories of reincarnation, NDEs, etc.  Towards the bottom of this page is a list of examples of what kids have said that hint of reincarnation. It reminded me of when my son was 2, I was driving us home, and he said "Mommy you are so much nicer than my other parents were." I don't think that's something a 2 year old would just make up.

I haven't had a chance to read much on the website yet, but this research group looks like a goldmine to me!

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman, Hi Deb, Hi All,

In 1978, about 6 months before I discovered Seth, I purchased a book called "Thavis is Here" by Harry Homeward.

https://www.amazon.com/Thavis-Here-Harry-Homewood/dp/0449139913/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Thavis+Is+Here&qid=1574361489&sr=8-1

This book consists of a series of written dialogues that occurred between Harry and Thavis.  Thavis, was a personality that came through to Harry whenever Harry would tune in and open up his mind. For these dialogues, Harry would tune in and then using "automatic writing", record the messages that he received from Thavis.

The material from Thavis was really very good; very similar to Seth's in many ways. 

After I finished reading this book, I was really disappointed because I really wanted to hear more from Thavis on many other topics. (Chasman, this kind of reminds me of the new topic you posted yesterday on, "What would you ask Seth?")  

About 6 months later, I finally "found" my next Thavis like book, it was titled "Seth Speaks". 



It was many years later before I came to believe that it was actually my inner self (what some would call their higher self), that led me to both the "Thavis Is Here" book and then later, the "Seth Speaks" book as well.  I believe that my inner self led me to these 2 books, because the messages in these 2 books, were the kinds of messages that it had been trying to communicate to me.  Unfortunately, at that time in my life, I was very closed off to both the idea and the belief that I had an inner or higher self, much less that it could and would communicate with me, if I would only listen.

Over the years I have gradually become much more open to this idea that we do in fact actually have an inner self and furthermore, if you let it, it will communicate with you. For me, my inner self sometimes communicates with me through thoughts, ideas, feelings, and intuitive insights. Along with this, sometimes when I'm meditating, it communicates with me via internal sounds and internal images.

Sometimes, when talking about communicating with your inner self or higher self, a phrase that's sometimes used is, "Listen to your Heart".



There are very many competing and conflicting beliefs and ideas about death.  Atheists believe in nothingness. There are eastern religious philosophies about reincarnation and karma. There are western religious beliefs and philosophies about pain, eternal damnation and hell for those who haven't "saved" themselves. With all of these confusing and conflicting ideas and beliefs about death, what is a person to actually believe?


When I become open and receptive and think about this subject, the best piece of advice that I can think to share with anyone, would be to open up your mind and ask your inner self what it has to tell you about death. Then, in response to this, "Listen to your Heart", and it will give you its answer.


-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman, Hi All,

I hope that I didn't come across as "preachy", because that is not my intent.

My thinking is this, maybe the reason why you friend introduced you to "Seth" back in the 70's, was similar to my experience.  Maybe this occurred because your inner self was trying to direct you to the kind of message that it was trying to communicate with you.

Just a thought.

-jbseth

[chasman]

Deb and jbseth,

                thank you more than words can say, for everything both of you wrote.
you are both very wise and very good.
 
you are so good to help me with this.

Charlie

[jbseth]

Hi Chasman, Hi All,

I recently came across a section of DEaVF1, where Seth talks about man's dream body and his physical body.  In this particular session, Seth tell us that we survive death via our dream body, which does not die.


DEaVF1, Ch5, S889

(Long pause in a steady, rather fast delivery.) Man's dream body is still with him, of course, but the physical body now obscures it. The dream body cannot be harmed while the physical one can—as man quickly found out as he transformed his experience largely from one to the other. In the dream body man feared nothing. The dream body does not die. It exists before and after physical death. In their dream bodies men had watched the spectacle of animals "killing" other animals, and they saw the animals' dream bodies emerge unscathed.

[... 1 paragraph ...]

[Men] saw that there must be an exchange of physical energy for the world to continue. They watched the drama of the "hunter" and the "prey," seeing that each animal contributed so that the physical form of the earth could continue—but the rabbit eaten by the wolf survived in a dream body that men knew was its true form. When man "awakened" in his physical body, however, and specialized in the use of its senses, he no longer perceived the released dream body of the slain animal running away, still cavorting on the hillside. He retained memory of his earlier knowledge, and for a considerable period he could now and then recapture that knowledge. He became more and more aware of his physical senses, however: Some things were definitely pleasant and some were not. Some stimuli were to be sought out, and others avoided, and so over a period of time he translated the pleasant and the unpleasant into rough versions of good and evil.


-jbseth

[chasman]

thanks again jbseth.
really awesome and cool.   

[Eduard]

if there are no consciousness units to sustain the reality I think it will perish, however, is a bit counter-intuitive with the whole idea of the system which is ever-expanding (however such a possibility within possibilities should exist so it does not refute the general rule)

but you are talking about death - which is based here in this reality .. and you are trying to marry it with non physical stuff - if you are referring to probable selves - then yes, they die at one moment in time (one question might be, does the world they lived in perish too?)

[Deb]

but you are talking about death - which is based here in this reality .. and you are trying to marry it with non physical stuff - if you are referring to probable selves - then yes, they die at one moment in time (one question might be, does the world they lived in perish too?)

Well, that's a good question. I figure since we are creating on both a personal and a mass level, then as an individual leaves the physical plane, anything in their personal world (view) would "go with them" (as do their beliefs, at least temporarily) while anything that has been created and acknowledged by the masses would remain as is. In Seth Speaks, Chapter 11, After-Death Choices and the Mechanics of Transition (540):

"You may decide to focus instead upon your past life... creating variations of events as you have known them, making corrections as you choose"

makes me think we take our life experience with us and as creation is more efficient in nonphysical, we can then manipulate it as we wish, if we wish to.

if you are referring to probable selves - then yes, they die at one moment in time (one question might be, does the world they lived in perish too?)

Are you saying that all the probable selves of one individual die at the same time? Or am I misinterpreting that?

"When your mother died in her 50's in one probable system, your mother in this system was the recipient of energy that then returned."
—UR1 Section 1: Session 680 February 6, 1974

Update: I just had another thought (imagine that).

What we call death here in our physical existence, is the spiritual transition to a non-physical plane. The personality/soul survives, the body we occupy here surely stops working (death) and breaks down, the energy is recycled. "Moving" to any other plane or system of existence is simply a transition. There are no physical bodies in the non-physical planes, so that part of the transition would not take place in non-physical systems. There are other physical systems, so I imagine the process would be similar to that here on Earth.