Questions about "cults"

[jbseth]

Hi All,


I have several questions for you. Over the years, the word "cult", has been brought up here on several occasions.


Are we a cult?

Have you ever actually thought about this?

Would it bother you if we were, in fact, a cult?

If you respond that we're not a cult, is it because, you don't actually think that we're a cult, or is it because you'd be bothered by the fact that maybe we are a cult?



I asked these questions because there are a lot of different opinions about this concept, what is a "cult" and I'm curious as to what the members here thought about it.



-jbseth

[T.M.]

Hi All,

Hi Jbseth,

It doesn't bother me in the least if someone wants to call us a cult. That word is usually used in a derogatory way. I'm just no longer interested in being included into whosoever definition of what they consider, or call, normal. Which often is usually for purposes of manipulation.

[Deb]

A reasonable question!

I don't consider us a cult, because in my mind the definition of a cult involves religion: "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object." I don't really care if someone else considers us a cult, everyone has their own opinions—on everything. I had a friend once tell me "opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one," lol.

I consider the Seth materials to be more a philosophy. Another definition of cult is "a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing." I guess misplaced and excessive are subjective; I don't see anyone here as being excessive. No one here worships Jane or Seth. Heck, most of the time we're trying to figure out whether some of the things in the materials are even believable. Is being willing to consider there's more to reality than the teachings of religion and science a bad thing? I don't picture people belonging to cults or religions willing to question any of the associated beliefs.

There are many people who believe only in science—and have heard people say that some people make a religion out of science. Does that make science a cult? Are ALL religions cults? If not, what makes generally accepted religions not be considered cults? And who gets to decide?

[Sena]

Are we a cult?

jbseth, no we are not a cult. I once belonged to a "Fourth Way Gurdjieff" forum. I was expelled for disagreeing with some of the dogma. On this forum I have made several posts in which I disagreed with some of the things in the Seth books. This freedom to disagree proves that this is not a cult.

People don't often recognize that Roman Catholicism is a cult. This is why the sexual abuse of children has become a problem there - members of the Church are afraid to speak out against priests who are abusers.

[jbseth]

Hi All,

My wife has a friend and one of her friend's family members is married to a man who grew up in a family that this heavily involved in "Scientology". This man doesn't appear to make much of an effort of trying to convert others to this belief system. I'm not sure that he really sees it as a positive thing, even though his family does.

Several years ago, after watching several episodes of Leah Remini's series on "Scientology", I started to see that this belief system really appears to be a cult. It was at this point that I started to wonder very specifically, what exactly is a "cult"?

In trying to answer this question, I spent some time on the internet as well as in many bookstores and some libraries.  What I discovered is this, unlike the definition of, for example, an "apple" or a "baseball", the definition of a "cult" is very ambiguous.  It seems to depend upon who you ask and upon their specific definition. 



In looking through many bookstores and some libraries, for books on this topic, I discovered a great book that talks about many of the issues having to do with cults. This book is titled, "The Guru Papers Mask of Authoritarian Power".

In this book, the authors talk about the subjects of Authority, Hierarchy, Power, Religions, Cults, Science, Gurus, Surrender, Jim Jones and the Jonestown mass suicide, Channeling, Do You Create Your Reality, Fundamentalism, Revisionism, the problem of Evil in religion, Satanism, Addiction, the 12 Step program, Love and Control, Oneness, Enlightenment and the Mystical Experience.

This book contained many thought provoking ideas and gave me many insights into subjects like what's the difference between a religion and a cult; the authors do point out that many religions started out as cults.

Anyway, I thought I'd pass this book information along, as I found that this book was really helpful, in answering for myself, many cult and even non-cult related questions.


Below are my answers to the questions I posed earlier. I'd like to point out that these are just my answers. If yours are different than these, this doesn't make yours wrong and mine right. That's not what I'm saying here. These are just my thoughts.




Are we a cult?

I'd say that the answer really depends upon who you ask and it also depends upon their specific definition of a cult. This is because the definition of a cult is rather ambiguous.

Along with this, I'd also say that, to many people, we are a cult.

My definition of a cult is a group or organization that has some sort of authoritarian power structure, usually top down. Where members aren't free to challenge the beliefs of the group and where members aren't free to leave or disengage from the group.

Using this definition, I'd say that the Peoples Temple (this was the Jim Jones group) was a cult, Scientology certainly appears to be a cult, however, we, are not a cult.


Have you ever actually thought about this?
Yes.


Would it bother you if we were, in fact, a cult?
No.


If you respond that we're not a cult, is it because, you don't actually think that we're a cult, or is it because you'd be bothered by the fact that maybe we are a cult?

I don't believe that we're a cult and this is based upon my personal definition of a cult.


-jbseth

[jbseth]

People don't often recognize that Roman Catholicism is a cult. This is why the sexual abuse of children has become a problem there - members of the Church are afraid to speak out against priests who are abusers.

Hi Sena,

You mean like this story that just came out today?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/03/us/ohio-priest-child-pornography-sex-trafficking-indictment/index.html


How sad is it that almost any time, this issue of the Catholic Church and sex abuse, is brought up here in this forum, there's almost always a story, that is presently in the news, that demonstrates another example of the existence of this issue.


-jbseth

[Sena]

You mean like this story that just came out today?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/03/us/ohio-priest-child-pornography-sex-trafficking-indictment/index.html

jbseth, thanks for drawing my attention to this story. The priest's victims were young males, presumably teenagers. I have read that about 80% of Catholic priests are homosexually inclined, although many of them would deny it. The Catholic insistence on priestly celibacy would be laughable if not for the sometimes serious consequences.

[dougdi]

Being homosexual does not make one a child predator.

[Sena]

Being homosexual does not make one a child predator.

dougdi, that is obvious. It is trying to be celibate which is the problem.

[dougdi]

I wasn't sure what you meant. I agree, celibacy isn't healthy. I was loosely raised Catholic and found the whole thing to be nonsensical at an early age and stopped participating when I became a teenager. I never bought into it or any religion. Finding Seth's material and Robert Monroe's work answered many of my questions and get me through this life. The rest will have to wait until I leave the physical life.

[Deb]

Regarding the Ohio priest, how do you suppose someone like this can live with themselves? I don't mean this only from a judgmental level, but psychological as well. I'm curious how so many people in positions of care and trust can reconcile or rationalize their completely opposing behaviors. For instance, this priest would have to have had a deeply religious devotion to want to become a priest—stick through all the schooling, graduate, take on a career devoted to religion. In my mind, that takes dedication, determination, passion, a calling. And the Catholic religion has very stringent rules when it comes to sexuality, marriage and treating others. Does he consider himself a good Catholic and priest?

Then there is the other side of him and what he's done. How does he live with himself? I suppose it would have take a lot going on mentally, beyond being a pedophile. Such as being a psychopath/antisocial, sociopath or narcissist.

I also wonder how many of pedophile priests were abused themselves as children, and the psychology behind following in the footsteps of their abusers.

Humans are so complex.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Deb, you ask some good questions and make some great points.

I have no idea how these Catholic priests who abuse children, live with themselves, but I think that at least some of this, goes back to the Catholic Church and their specific belief system.  According to the Catholic Church, you are born a "sinner". People who grow up believing in this belief system are constantly being told that they are "sinners". They are also told that they must regularly "confess" their sins. Finally, they are also told that at the end of their lives, God will judge them and if they are judged to have committed too much sin, then they will be cast into Hell for eternity.


Now, step back for a minute and think about what Seth has to say about the very many topics that he talks about. Furthermore, if, for the most part, what he says is really true, then its fairly easy to see that this Catholic Church belief system is not just bad, but it's absolutely "horrible". It's absolutely one of the worst things that man could ever perpetuate upon himself.


Given what Seth has to say:

Is it any wonder that people who believe in the Catholic faith, have some pretty messed up ideas about God and sin and sexuality?

Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church, who demands that their priests be celibate, has problems, in that their priests have been abusing children?

Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church, who demands that women don't practice birth control, are at odds with many of its own members who live in a world that's quickly becoming overpopulated?

Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church, in not being willing or able to deal with these issues is in the process of making itself irrelevant in minds of many people?



I think that what we're all witnessing here is this, the Catholic Church is in the process of doing itself in. Furthermore, given what Seth has to say about the many topics that he talks about, I, for one, am very much OK with this.



Deb, your comment about how many pedophile priests were abused themselves as children is also interesting. I have heard several times that people who study abusers say that many abusers, were abused themselves as children.

-jbseth

[T.M.]

Hi All,

I still think what we see playing out in world events are the results of too much concentration about good vs. evil. Which mostly came about via the auspices of Christianity.

[Sena]

Is it any wonder that the Catholic Church, who demands that women don't practice birth control, are at odds with many of its own members who live in a world that's quickly becoming overpopulated?

jbseth, it is good that you have highlighted this. The Catholic Church says that using birth control is a "mortal sin", yet 90% of Catholics practise birth control and still consider themselves Catholic!
T.M., you may be right about the Catholic Church being responsible for the clash between good and evil. Islam is also responsible for it. Seth gives us the correct perspective. He is clear that killing another human being is wrong, but the Catholic Church (and Protestants) burnt thousands of women alive after labelling them as "witches".

https://www.history.com/news/how-medieval-churches-used-witch-hunts-to-gain-more-followers

This is an extract from a book I am reading, by an Indian writer, born a non-Catholic but indoctrinated in a Catholic school (a bit of synchronicity that I am reading that book just now):

"Though I wasn't brought up as a Christian, my Catholic schools had ensured that the God I believed in was Christian. This meant that I believed in the Christian Devil as well. I didn't consciously realize it until I stopped believing in God. His infernal counterpart, like a bad tenant, refused to vacate my consciousness. At nights, and especially during power failures or thunderstorms, I could sense the subliminal snickering of his minions. It seemed wholly hypocritical to pray at times like this, though I did, feeling guilty and craven. It was terrible to feel that my immortal soul was at risk even though I had ceased to believe I had one. Werewolves, vampires and others of their persuasion were all potential hazards. How did a non-Christian defend herself against Christian fiends? Would I or would I not be privileged to use a crucifix in my defence? And who would decide? I tried to reassure myself with the thought that none of these monsters could possibly be so pedantic as to demand proof of a victim's faith. But troubling questions remained. Surely such creatures were themselves in opposition to God and to faith! In which case, were they believing Christians or not? And what about pagan vampires – were there such things? And what protection was effective against them?" (from "Getting there" by Manjula Padmanabhan)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/1usulzM

[jbseth]

Hi All,

It's my understanding from Biblical historical scholars, that the "Zoroastrian" religion, which predates both Christianity and Islam, was probably the source that influenced Christianity, Islam and even quite possibly Judaism, in regards to the "Good verses Evil" concepts that are found in these religions.

As I understand it, sometime around 600 BCE, the Babylonians overthrew the Jewish people who lived in the area around Jerusalem.  When this occurred, the Babylonians exiled most of these Jewish people to the area around Babylonia, which is about 500 miles from Jerusalem.

Then, about 100 years later, the Persians, overthrew the Babylonians.  The Persians, were the people who released the Jewish people from Babylonian exile and let them go back to their Jewish homelands and rebuild their temple. These Persians practiced Zoroastrianism.  Zoroastrianism, is a religion that is based upon an "End of the World" battle between the forces of Good and Evil (see Wikipedia site below). 

Then sometime after the Jewish people were released from this Babylonian exile, biblical scholars believe that the "Book of Daniel" was written. This Jewish Bible book, "Daniel" is loaded with text about an "End of the World" battle between the forces of Good and Evil. Was this just a coincidence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

- jbseth

[Deb]

He is clear that killing another human being is wrong, but the Catholic Church (and Protestants) burnt thousands of women alive after labelling them as "witches".

And then there were the Crusades and the Inquisition we are all familiar with:

"The Inquisition was a powerful office set up within the Catholic Church to root out and punish heresy throughout Europe and the Americas. Beginning in the 12th century and continuing for hundreds of years, the Inquisition is infamous for the severity of its tortures and its persecution of Jews and Muslims. Its worst manifestation was in Spain, where the Spanish Inquisition was a dominant force for more than 200 years, resulting in some 32,000 executions."

So much for "Thou shalt not kill."

I have no idea how these Catholic priests who abuse children, live with themselves, but I think that at least some of this, goes back to the Catholic Church and their specific belief system. 

Pedophile priests certainly are a strange dynamic borne of the Catholic church. I wonder how far the abuse goes back, historically? According to a Wiki on clerical celibacy, early on "the clergy were largely married men." Then in the 4th century came rules where married men who went into the clergy had to refrain permanently from relations with their wives.

Growing up, there were always rumors of priests getting it on with nuns, or other women, so the pedophilia is an entirely different thing to me, considering how rampant it's been in the church. But then there are the Boy Scouts abuses as well, and they are not related to the church. More than 7,800 of its former leaders have been reported, with 12,000 victims (1944-2016).

[Sena]

According to a Wiki on clerical celibacy, early on "the clergy were largely married men." Then in the 4th century came rules where married men who went into the clergy had to refrain permanently from relations with their wives.

Deb, it would seem that the practice of Catholic priests having wives or "concubines" continued up to the time of the Reformation in the 16th century. I would imagine that the abuse of children was much less common up to that time:

"Up until the Reformation, the sight of a parish priest and his family was a quite usual one in Catholic Western Europe.*  I'm not talking about the family he was born into either.  I'm talking about his wife (or concubine, depending on the century) and his kids.  For centuries the Church tried to impose celibacy on all of its clerics, but for a long time it only succeeded in making them angry.**

Up until the First and Second Lateran Councils (early 12th century), it was perfectly legal within the Church for a priest to get married.  Many of them did just that.  Indeed, many parishes, especially those in rural areas, preferred that their priest have a wife.  A married man was considered more stable than an unmarried one, an idea that applied to priests as well as laymen.  In many places the priest's wife held a certain amount of prestige and responsibility by virtue of being married to him.  Many sons of priests went on to be priests themselves.  People had so much invested in this system that many bishops who tried to tell their priests to give up their wives found themselves fleeing an angry mob."

http://emilykq.weebly.com/blog/priests-wives-and-concubines-in-medieval-europe

[Deb]

After posting my comments on Illusions II, I just realized we are not a cult, WE ARE A BOOK CLUB. 

I don't know any other religions that require celibacy of their clergy, and I'm sure it has caused nothing but problems for the Catholics. Not anything in the Bible to support it as far as I've heard, just like a few other things Catholicism insisted were God's word (such as fish on Friday).

I can't imagine any parents allowing their sons to be alter boys after all that's been exposed (and covered up for so long). I'm so glad I never bought into religion when I was growing up. Catholicism has to evolve or it will die.

[jbseth]

After posting my comments on Illusions II, I just realized we are not a cult, WE ARE A BOOK CLUB.

Hi Deb,

Actually, that's not so far from the truth. Just today Sena mentioned a book that he's reading called, "Getting There" by Manjula Padmanadham. We do talk about other authors and their books here quite a bit.

I agree, I'm not sure whether any other religions have celibate priests, however I do know that some of the Eastern religious traditions put a focus upon their members becoming detached from things and this detachment includes sexual relations. I'm not sure how well that works.

I agree, I would have a hard time believing that in today's world, any parent would risk allowing their children (boys or girls) to be left alone with any Catholic priest. That would be incredibly irresponsible.

-jbseth

[jbseth]

(from "Getting there" by Manjula Padmanabhan)

Hi Sena,

I checked out this book on Amazon.com.
It sounds really interesting.

Thanks for letting us know about it.

-jbseth

[Sena]

I don't know any other religions that require celibacy of their clergy,

Deb, Buddhist monks are mostly celibate (except perhaps the Tibetan). Boys are recruited to the Buddhist clergy from the age of 9 or 10.

https://time.com/5470903/clerical-sexual-abuse-children-buddhist-monks-myanmar/

Catholicism has to evolve or it will die.

Money talks. The immense wealth of the Catholic Church will keep it alive for at least another century. I have read that many Catholic churches in the U.S. are now disused, but the real estate is worth billions.

[Sena]

Hi Sena,

I checked out this book on Amazon.com.
It sounds really interesting.

Thanks for letting us know about it.

-jbseth

jbseth, I like to patronize authors who sell their books for a reasonable price. In the U.K. the Kindle edition is £1.99.

[Deb]

Just today Sena mentioned a book that he's reading called, "Getting There" by Manjula Padmanadham. We do talk about other authors and their books here quite a bit.

I know I've bought a LOT of books over the years because of recommendations by other members. It's one of my main reasons for not feeling bad about quoting from copyrighted books—I feel the quotes stimulate book sales.

Sena's quote from "Getting There" did sound interesting. Yesterday I bought a Kindle book for $1.99, Dawson Church's "Mind to Matter, The Astonishing Science of How Your Brain Creates Material Reality." I figure if it's not that interesting, it was only two bucks.

Oh and if you don't want to wait for the "One" book, I somehow have an extra used paperback I can send you for free. I still have the hardcover I bought in 1988. I'll probably read that again soon, I'm sure I'll be seeing it with new eyes since I found Seth.

Deb, Buddhist monks are mostly celibate (except perhaps the Tibetan). Boys are recruited to the Buddhist clergy from the age of 9 or 10.

Thanks, I didn't realize that. What a shame (the article), another opportunity for abuse and hiding it.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi Sena, Hi All,

Thanks for sharing Deb. That new book of yours sounds really interesting. I think I'll check out what Amazon has to say about it. Let us know what you think about it after you read it.

Several years ago I came across a book that might be similar. It was written by a neuroscientist, Mario Beauregard, and it was called "Brain Wars". Based upon what Mario says in his book, it seems that he has a belief that is similar to Seth's in that consciousness may come, before matter, and not the other way around. I find it refreshing to hear that there are some people in the scientific community who actually think like this.


Thank you very much for your offer of the book, "One" by Richard Bach.  That was a really wonderful thing for you to do (we both know and understand how great his books are) and I seriously contemplated this but I'll opt to pass on it. My bookshelves are getting full and soon I may have to give some up to a local used book store.  That's always kind of a challenge for me, which of my books should I part with.


Sena, when I went to Amazon and checked out the book, "Getting There" by Manjula Padmanabhan. I discovered that she's actually written quite a few books. The Wikipedia site below, says that not only is she a book writer, but she's also written at least one play, is an illustrator and has written a comic strip. It sounds to me like she's quite an interesting person.

I'm curious, how did you come to know about her or her book? If you'd rather not explain, that's OK too.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manjula_Padmanabhan


-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Wow Deb, that book, Dawson Church's "Mind to Matter, The Astonishing Science of How Your Brain Creates Material Reality." is really amazing.

Thanks for letting us know about it.

Here's what is says on Amazon about this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Mind-Matter-Astonishing-Science-Material-ebook/dp/B079NQXST4/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=dawson+church&qid=1594323837&sr=8-1


- jbseth

[Sena]

Sena, when I went to Amazon and checked out the book, "Getting There" by Manjula Padmanabhan. I discovered that she's actually written quite a few books. The Wikipedia site below, says that not only is she a book writer, but she's also written at least one play, is an illustrator and has written a comic strip. It sounds to me like she's quite an interesting person.

I'm curious, how did you come to know about her or her book? If you'd rather not explain, that's OK too

jbseth, this is how I came across Manjula Padmanabhan. I am from Sri Lanka although I now live in England. As you probably know, Sri Lanka is a tiny island compared to the enormous land mass of India with a population of over a billion. I have not been to India except to transit from one of their airports. I was thinking that India is going in the wrong direction with their over-population and misuse of natural resources. On the other hand, India has a very significant spiritual heritage. So I wanted to find an Indian writer who had a good understanding of the current situation. I did a Google search for "significant modern Indian writers", and that is how I found Manjula.

[jbseth]

Hi Sena,

Thanks for sharing that information on how you found Manjula Padmanabhan. That makes a lot of sense to me, I find a lot of information on the internet myself.

I knew that you were from Sri Lanka, and something you said more recently made me aware that you are now in England.


Are you glad to be in England?   Do you like it there?  Do you miss Sri Lanka?


Again, no need to reply, if any of this is uncomfortable for you in any way.

-jbseth

[Sena]

Are you glad to be in England?   Do you like it there?  Do you miss Sri Lanka?

jbseth, yes I do miss Sri Lanka, but I am glad to be away from the dictatorial regime there. There are said to be 60,000 people imprisoned without trial there.

The following website is blocked in Sri Lanka:

https://www.lankaenews.com/news/3223/en

[jbseth]

jbseth, yes I do miss Sri Lanka, but I am glad to be away from the dictatorial regime there. There are said to be 60,000 people imprisoned without trial there.

Hi Sena,

Thanks for your reply. I don't know a lot about Sri Lanka's politics, but from the link you posted, it doesn't appear that their political situation is very good.  I hope that all goes well for you and your family in England.

-jbseth

[Sena]

Sena, when I went to Amazon and checked out the book, "Getting There" by Manjula Padmanabhan. I discovered that she's actually written quite a few books.

jbseth, talking of synchronicity, Manjula reports visiting her relative Radzie in Elmira, New York:

"RADZIE COLLECTED US FROM where the Greyhound dropped us off, in Elmira, on the border of New York State and Pennsylvania. In twenty minutes we were in her house, the last of eight homes along a short stretch of road." (from "Getting there" by Manjula Padmanabhan)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/dWS0fdi

[jbseth]

Hi Sena,

Wow Sena, that awesome.

I'm guessing that this may have occurred perhaps some time in the late 1970's or perhaps in the early 1980's and Jane and Rob were probably fairly close or near by. That's really neat. 


-jbseth