Did Jane's illness “grow out of her mystical nature”? (DEAVF1)

[Sena]

I would first like to say that, in my view, Seth did NOT give a final and definitive explanation for the fact that Jane chose to create a reality in which she suffered from the chronic and disabling illness of rheumatoid arthritis. If she had developed the illness 20 years later, more effective treatments may have been available.

That Jane's illness "grow out of her mystical nature" is more Rob's idea than specifically Seth's. This is the relevant extract from  DEAVF1:

"Once again I note that in my opinion Jane's dependency represents, at
least in part, a search for a "redemption" that encompasses other
motivations and realities than those concerned with "just" our temporal
lives; that indeed, her impaired state grew out of her mystical nature
itself (but was hardly caused by it!).
So, although I think that Jane has made some "remarkable gains"
during recent weeks, I also think that basically she has yet to resolve
the entire issue of her illnesses—or even whether to continue physical
life. Seth put it beautifully a couple of months ago in the session for
April 12—the first time Jane spoke for him since leaving the hospital—
and I return to it again and again. See the essay for April 16: "The
entire issue (of Jane's living) had been going on for some time, and the
argument— the argument being somewhat in the nature of a soul facing
its own legislature, or perhaps standing as a jury before itself, setting its
own case in a kind of private yet public psychic trial. Life decisions are
often made in just such a fashion. With Ruburt they carried a psychic
and physical logic and economy. . . ."
Obviously, Jane's deliberations over whether to continue physical life
are much easier to appreciate when she's depressed and/ or physically
uncomfortable, and during those times I can sense the fluctuations in
her examination of her psyche. Portions of her are still quite
deliberately thinking it all over, I'm sure, although she doesn't mention
this outside the session frameworks she provides for Seth and herself."

There is an interesting article on rheumatoid arthritis here:

https://curearthritis.org/arthritis-archives-rheumatoid-arthritis/

"1980 saw considerable strides being made in the treatment of RA by the use of a drug developed for chemotherapy in the 1950s – methotrexate. This drug revolutionised RA therapeutics, most patients that received the drug responded well with good control of joint inflammation. This was a game changer and led to a great reduction in patients having to undergo joint replacement or other orthopaedic surgeries."

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

Did Janes illness grow out of her mystical nature?  I don't know Sena, I think it depends upon how we look at this.

Jane chose the conditions of her life, before she was born, just like the rest of us.

She chose her Mom, who Seth refers to as her "enemy" from a previous existence in a passage, I believe, in the book WTH.

As a child she was exposed to extreme horrendous emotional abuse from her Mom. On several occasions her Mom threatened to kill both herself and Jane by shutting off the pilot light in the gas stove and letting the gas blow themselves up. Jane was terrified of her mother. She also told Jane that after she (Jane's Mom) died, she'd would come back and get Jane.

Jane was also sexually abused by several priests when she was young. This is also mentioned in the book, WTH.

I would say that Jane chose the conditions of her life, before she was born, just like the rest of us. I would also say that Jane used these conditions to drive her creative, poetic, psychic and mystical ideas and experiences that she had in this life. Along with this, I would say that it was her struggle, at an outer ego level, in dealing with these horrendous childhood experiences that "resulted" in her creating her physical health issues, which ultimately led to her death.

In NOME, Seth tells us that nobody is born, who doesn't want to be born and nobody dies who doesn't want to die. He says something like, no stray bullet from a gun, nor disease nor any other situation, will kill a man who doesn't want to die.


-jbseth

[Sena]

Jane was also sexually abused by several priests when she was young. This is also mentioned in the book, WTH.

jbseth, this is very relevant. Children who are sexually abused can develop physical illness in later life.

[wanderer]

I have found some information which may cast more light on this.  From 'The Magical Approach', Session One:

The natural person is indeed the magical person, and you have both to some extent had very recent examples of such activity. You were, and are, trying to teach yourselves something. This is somewhat lengthy to unravel, but your behavior and experience, of course, is the result of
your beliefs. Framework 2 2 has been a rather fascinating but mainly (underlined) hypothetical framework, in that neither of you have really been able to put it to any perceivable use in your terms. This is not to say it has not been operating. You have not had the kind of feedback,
however, that you want.

When you were both intensely involved in your projects, just finished, you let much of your inner experience slide, relatively speaking. The two of you operating together, however, then came up with an idea — an important one — that allows you to interpret the Framework 2 material
in your own ways. You had instant feedback — the interplay of a creative nature between the two of you involving your dreams and the camera, 3 and so forth. You were each struck by the magical ease with which you seemed, certainly, to perceive and act upon information — information that you did not even realize you possessed.

Some of Ruburt's notes that you have not seen have further important insights as to such activity. The main point is indeed the importance of accepting (underlined) a different kind of overall orientation — one that is indeed not any secondary adjunct, but a basic part of human nature.
As your own and Ruburt's notes state, Ruburt's more clearly, this involves an entirely different relationship of the self you know with time. You can make your own connections here, as per Ruburt's camera experience, and your own dreams of late.

Important misunderstandings involving time have been in a large measure responsible for many of Ruburt's difficulties, and also of your own, though they have been of a lesser nature. All of this involves relating to reality in a more natural, and therefore magical, fashion. There is certainly a kind of natural physical time in your experience, and in the experience of any creature. It involves the rhythm of the seasons — the days and nights and tides and so forth. In the light of that kind of physical time, which is involved within earthly biology, there is no (pause) basic cultural time. That is, to this natural rhythm you have culturally added the idea of clocks, moments and hours and so forth, which you have transposed over nature's rhythms.

(9:05.) Such a cultural time works well overall for the civilization that concentrates upon partialities, bits and pieces, assembly lines, promptness of appointments, and so forth. It fits an industrialized society as you understand it.

/.../

You have not really, either of you, been ready to drastically alter your orientations, but you are approaching that threshold. As Ruburt's notes also mention, the "magical approach" means that you actually change your methods of dealing with problems, achieving goals, and satisfying means. You change over to the methods of the natural person. They are indeed, then, a part of your private experience. They are not esoteric methods, but you must be convinced that they are the natural methods by which man is meant to handle his problems and approach his challenges.

I use the word "methods" because you understand it, but actually we are speaking about an approach to life, a magical or natural approach to life that is man's version of the animal's natural instinctive behavior in the universe.

That approach does indeed fly in direct contradiction to the learned methods you have been taught. You have held on to those methods to varying degrees, since after all it seems that the world shares them. They are understood ways of dealing with events. Once again, however, with the experience of the last few days, you are both astonished by the magical ease by which work — real work — can be accomplished: events perceived out of place and time and so forth.

As you may be aware, Mary Ennis carries on energy exchanges with Elias, who 'carries on' with the work begun by Seth & Jane Roberts.  From the Elias Forum:

ELIAS: "I will express to you that in regards to this unformulated question of Michael's [Mary's] (3), this individual of your Jane Roberts interacted with our essence of Seth for much time, within your terms. Much information was delivered. Within some, a few, of these manuscripts that have been offered publicly, you may research and you may find that this was discussed many times.

You will not find an account of how often this very subject was addressed, but I will express to you that this subject was addressed very many times. This was a very serious issue; and although there were some other issues also involved with this individual, with personal challenges, the issue of 'boxing up' creativity was the main element of, shall we say, in your terms, destructiveness, for you view this to be a self-destructive element; although, in actuality, it is not destructive. As I was expressing earlier, this is a choice. The individual feels no need to be continuing.

Within your belief systems, many of you do not choose to simply retire for the evening, and never return. Therefore, you choose physical ailments to allow your departure with an explanation; this being something other individuals surrounding you may attach to as an explanation, and may be more accepting of. It is not necessary for the individual. Their mind, so to speak, has already been made up. They have already decided that their expression will not be incorporated within the particular developmental focus, for it is too constricting and they do not understand [the method] of how to unconstrict it. Therefore, as I have expressed, they view their focus to be pointless.

The incorporation of the intersection with Seth allowed many of your years of continued creative expression, to a point; but as this creative expression was continually 'boxed into' cultural time, it was an insufficient and ineffective expression.

Many individuals may force their creative expression to be 'coming through' within the confines of cultural time, viewing that they need to be producing, therefore pushing their productivity. This, though, is not a true creative expression.

Many literary words were produced by this individual during her focus. Her creativity and expression was basically focused within the element of poetry. I will wager you will not encounter many poetry books of this individual!

Many creative individuals will find other methods to be expressing of their creativity, but it is not the 'main line,' so to speak. In this, they block their intent, and create tremendous conflict. They may not feel this conflict, but they will also feel a constriction, a squeezing; a knowing of a missing element; something undone. As the element undone continues, the constriction tightens. This eventually seeks expression, as does all energy. Therefore, it expresses in the only way that you understand and know how to express; it creates what you view to be a negative expression, a physical manifestation or a psychological manifestation. The individual will create a situation of physical disability and eventual termination, or mental disability resulting in what you view to be 'not sane.' Either way, they are disconnecting with physical focus and discontinuing, for they find no further purposefulness within this particular expression; and also knowing that they possess the ability to move on, and recreate in elements that they may be expressive within." [session 74, February 25, 1996]

(3) Vic's note: Mary's question was in regards to whether or not Jane Roberts ended her physical focus as a result of a lack of creative expression.

https://www.eliasforum.org/digests/Seth_Jane.html#3

[Sena]

The incorporation of the intersection with Seth allowed many of your years of continued creative expression, to a point; but as this creative expression was continually 'boxed into' cultural time, it was an insufficient and ineffective expression.

wanderer, thanks for the quote. This appears to be a criticism of Seth and Jane Roberts.

If you are very familiar with the Elias material, it would be interesting if you post direct comparisons between the Elias teachings and the Seth teachings.

[Tob]

The incorporation of the intersection with Seth allowed many of your years of continued creative expression, to a point; but as this creative expression was continually 'boxed into' cultural time, it was an insufficient and ineffective expression.

wanderer, thanks for the quote. This appears to be a criticism of Seth and Jane Roberts.

If you are very familiar with the Elias material, it would be interesting if you post direct comparisons between the Elias teachings and the Seth teachings.

http://www.paulhelfrich.com/library/Helfrich_P_A_Seth_Elias_Comparative_Overview.pdf

[Sena]

http://www.paulhelfrich.com/library/Helfrich_P_A_Seth_Elias_Comparative_Overview.pdf

Tob, thanks, I downloaded the pdf.

[wanderer]

The incorporation of the intersection with Seth allowed many of your years of continued creative expression, to a point; but as this creative expression was continually 'boxed into' cultural time, it was an insufficient and ineffective expression.

wanderer, thanks for the quote. This appears to be a criticism of Seth and Jane Roberts.

If you are very familiar with the Elias material, it would be interesting if you post direct comparisons between the Elias teachings and the Seth teachings.

I see it more as a comment on the wider social conditioning wrt how we restrict our creative lives.  I would imagine that Seth would have been very happy if Jane and Rob had allowed themselves more life-schedule freedom for their creative expressions, and not just so that he (Seth) would get more session time!

I am at present fairly familiar with the Elias material; less so with Seth.  I have adopted a 'bass-ackwards' approach, in that I first began reading and listening to Elias sessions, then I started buying Seth books.  I do hope Seth is not offended!

[strangerthings]

What if, Jane wanted to write more creatively than she allowed the time for with the Seth material and working and being married etc

What if she deep down wanted to write more sci-fi for example?

I know Seth mentioned that before.

I could totally see that and understand it. Sort of caught between doing Seth material and her own. Granted she did write her own books but they werent sci-fi trilogies etc.

What she did was give us a gift we thought we lost ....perhaps....and yet this yearning to be a creative magnificent female author to some great novels reared its head within? Yes she wrote poetry and Emir and Oversoul,Psychic politics etc that is not what I am talking about.

I dont think I would have to bet dollars to doughnuts that Jane is a sci-fi author and they even made movies from her books, in another version of Earth. To me it seems quite logical!

[Deb]

(3) Vic's note: Mary's question was in regards to whether or not Jane Roberts ended her physical focus as a result of a lack of creative expression.

I dont think I would have to bet dollars to doughnuts that Jane is a sci-fi author and they even made movies from her books, in another version of Earth. To me it seems quite logical!

That's a good point. If we are to believe in probable realities, there are probable Janes where she chose scifi books, or poetry books, or became an artist, or lived and continued to write books with Seth.

I've only read a few of Jane's journals, but I didn't get the impression that she felt that she didn't feel creatively fulfilled. She wasn't an artist, but created a multitude of paintings that look like they were done with joy and abandon. It was her hobby, and I know she got a lot of pleasure out of it.

She did write a lot of poetry, managed to slip it into many of the books, plus published a book and had a lot published in magazines. She had many scifi short stories published, shared a paperback with another author, and then decided that the scifi world was too male-dominated for her. While writing books for Seth, she also wrote several of her own.

The amount of written material she created is mind boggling (just look at the Wiki), and I think she pretty much did what she wanted. No holding her back!

She had her own reasonS for her illness and early demise, that we many never know for sure. She speculated, Rob speculated, everyone else does.

I think I'll start a collection of comments from her, Rob, others as to why she ended up the way she did. It's always a big topic for fans of Jane and the Seth material, and it would be interesting to see the cross-overs.