Make room for "utterly opposing data"

[Mark M]

"An open mind therefore, or an open spirit, must be large enough to contain within it room for what may seem to be utterly opposing data."

--Seth, TES2, Session 81, August 26, 1964

[inavalan]

Interesting quote. It made me curious to check for its context:

• Prayer has been extremely successful in enabling individuals to manipulate matter through use of their psychic abilities.
  
  The God concept, however, is true and not true. Myths and symbols are often closer to reality than what are called hard facts, since so-called hard facts are often distortions of the outer senses. These distortions however are necessary frameworks for existence of the inner self in the material universe.
  
  Again, then, even the hard facts are true and not true. An open mind therefore, or an open spirit, must be large enough to contain within it room for what may seem to be utterly opposing data. Myths and symbols often are closer to reality, again, than so-called hard facts.
  
  This is true. But so-called hard facts, that may seem opposed to symbols and myths, are not necessarily untrue, since they may be necessary distortions without which the inner self could not survive in the material universe.
  
  I have decided to tackle this to some degree here and now.
  
  The myth of God, as given in Christian theology, is too clearly seen by the intelligent adolescent to have evolved and changed from the Old Testament to the New Testament. ...
  
  --- TES2, Session 81, August 26, 1964

[strangerthings]

This session begins right out the gate with two examples of success in the psychic manipulation of matter. Both concerned Jane and Rob's vehicle.

Seth talks about the conscious mind and subconscious mind, agreeing or opposing, inner emotional need, the inner self and expectations and it is a really great intro into the rest of the session.

Great pick

[Deb]

"An open mind therefore, or an open spirit, must be large enough to contain within it room for what may seem to be utterly opposing data."

--Seth, TES2, Session 81, August 26, 1964

In our current state of censorship, I have to say that it would be a joy if people would just open their minds enough to consider what they view as opposing data (to their personal beliefs). I guess that would be the first step. 

[Mark M]

Deb wrote: "In our current state of censorship, I have to say that it would be a joy if people would just open their minds enough to consider what they view as opposing data (to their personal beliefs). I guess that would be the first step."

True.

What I think Seth meant here are apparent contradictions such as a person can still violate a person even tho that person is creating h/her own reality.

[inavalan]

[...]
In our current state of censorship, I have to say that it would be a joy if people would just open their minds enough to consider what they view as opposing data (to their personal beliefs). I guess that would be the first step. 

I think that that isn't a realistic hope. It isn't that people don't want, it is that they can't (yet). Not all people are at the same level of evolvement. That is analogous to saying: "it would be nice if first graders would do calculus".

[Deb]

Not all people are at the same level of evolvement. That is analogous to saying: "it would be nice if first graders would do calculus".

Wow, that's really sad!

[Mark M]

"An open mind therefore, or an open spirit, must be large enough to contain within it room for what may seem to be utterly opposing data."

--Seth, TES2, Session 81, August 26, 1964

Let's hear it for seeming cognitive dissonance!

 

[inavalan]

... it would be a joy if people would just open their minds enough to consider what they view as opposing data (to their personal beliefs) ...

I think that that isn't a realistic hope. It isn't that people don't want, it is that they can't (yet).
Not all people are at the same level of evolvement. That is analogous to saying: "it would be nice if first graders would do calculus".

Wow, that's really sad!

I don't think it is sad ...

Once you realize what's possible and what isn't, you can concentrate on what you should do, and just do it!.

We often tend to believe that our joy, happiness, well-being are dependent on what others do. As "sethians" we should know better ... Don't we create our own reality? Here there's the drawback of believing that there is a consensus which is imposed on us: we are distracted from looking for what we need to do, and from just doing it! (Greeks' "nike", Romans' "victoria").

[Deb]

What was sad for me is comparing humans having an open mind to calculus for first graders. I would hope humanity would have progressed enough by now to narrow that gap a bit.

That's just me, being overly optimistic, I guess. 

[inavalan]

What was sad for me is comparing humans having an open mind to calculus for first graders. I would hope humanity would have progressed enough by now to narrow that gap a bit.

That's just me, being overly optimistic, I guess. 

Humanity is heterogeneous. As mammals are. As life is. As existence is. As wider reality is.

Not all humans are on the same level of evolvement. It is as in school, every calendar year you have first graders, second graders, ... seniors. Most pupils advance (in time) from one grade to the next, but there'll always be first graders, second graders, ... seniors. Some will graduate, and there'll always be fresh first graders. Same with humans.

Even more: we don't incarnate sequentially in historical time (time is a camouflage). This means that I may incarnate next time into any past historical period, and that my last incarnation may have been in a future historical period. So, living in the 21st century doesn't mean that a man is more evolved than one that lived in the 15th.

Regarding open-mindedness ... You may see things differently, but on any contemporary issue there are people on the opposite sides, who consider that they are the open-minded ones, and there is no yardstick for that.

Seth said that humans' good vs. evil concepts are highly distorted.

• https://nowdictation.com/q/'+good+evil'~5/

[Mark M]

Another example of seemingly utterly opposing data:

You create your own reality

vs.


Seth (Session 551): "You cannot say, 'The poor are poor simply
because they chose poverty, and therefore there is no need for me to
help them.' This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next
experience."

Plus, how much help do you extend?

I don't greatly mind a poor or possibly homeless person asking me for some money, but when it becomes every time they see me they ask, it gets a bit tiresome and a seeming dependence.

[strangerthings]

Another example of seemingly utterly opposing data:

You create your own reality

vs.


Seth (Session 551): "You cannot say, 'The poor are poor simply
because they chose poverty, and therefore there is no need for me to
help them.' This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next
experience."

Plus, how much help do you extend?

I don't greatly mind a poor or possibly homeless person asking me for some money, but when it becomes every time they see me they ask, it gets a bit tiresome and a seeming dependence.

Some people see poor when they see them. We have an immense power to lift others up. In our thoughts and psy times.

I do not believe Seth is saying to gift them with money. That is not always help. Instead, to use our immense creative power and reproduce life. What had been produced can be REproduced.

They are in a state just like everyone else. Lift their state.

Love thy neighbor.

[Deb]

Brilliant St, thanks for that! You're a natural.

I can add that I think Seth was talking more about our developing basic compassion for others in that second quote. I'm pretty sure when that was written, the excess of fake panhandlers that we have today did not exist. A person in need could be in other adverse situations, and if we can help then we should do what we can. What goes around comes around.

Yes there are more ways to help people in poverty or other dire situations other than handing them cash. There are Romani gypsies here that work the corners almost every day. It's an organized operation. Usually it's a woman in a long skirt with a baby or two, begging. Sometimes she's "pregnant."  Sometimes it's a man with kids. They mix and match the kids and parents and there are a number of them working together. In my mind, giving them money would support their operation, which I see as child abuse. I can't do that.

[Sena]

I do not believe Seth is saying to gift them with money. That is not always help. Instead, to use our immense creative power and reproduce life. What had been produced can be REproduced.

St, in most instances giving money is the wrong thing to do, but it may be necessary in exceptional circumstances. Money is a feature of camouflage reality.

[inavalan]

We tend to make radical judgements and rules, while reality is nuanced.

The inner-senses could be of great use in gauging the probable consequences of our possible choices. Consciously using them would make our decisions so much wiser.

We'd know whom, how and when to help, or not, for example.

As most of us don't consciously use our inner-senses, at our current stage of evolvement, our decisions may not have the expected outcome.

[Doro]

Deb wrote: "In our current state of censorship, I have to say that it would be a joy if people would just open their minds enough to consider what they view as opposing data (to their personal beliefs). I guess that would be the first step."

True.

What I think Seth meant here are apparent contradictions such as a person can still violate a person even tho that person is creating h/her own reality.

Would that imply that the violated person gave at another level of consciousness an OK to that act to meet it as a challenge?

[Deb]

Would that imply that the violated person gave at another level of consciousness an OK to that act to meet it as a challenge?

I would say yes, there are no "innocent" victims according to Seth. He talks about various violations in NoPR Chapter 8.

[Mark M]

I can't find the quote, but I thought Seth said murderers are like paid assassins in the sense that the victim at a likely not conscious "level" has agreed to the act.

But the violation exists, the victim "should" have created h/her death all on h/her own, and the murderer finding "something else to do" with him/herself than murder.

[Doro]

I didn't though about murder. I actually thought about the victims of the person who caused it. They have to live with trauma. But yes I thought so. They were ok with it. Not on a consious level but anyway...

[strangerthings]

"Now: in those terms, and in the terms of this discussion, specifically, all assassins are paid assassins hired by the victims. Again, in the terms of this discussion, many murderers are overwhelmed by a sense of guilt, and the murderous act pinpoints the reason for the guilt—so the victim pays the murderer by giving a clear-cut, unassailable reason for a monstrous guilt that was before formless, and even more frightening, since it seemed to have no particular base, but an overwhelming vitality."
—TPS5 Deleted Session September 20, 1978

"These mass killings are your nation's way of pinpointing an extremely dangerous inner trend, that otherwise could have far more severe worldwide consequences. Obviously serious consequences result from these particular recent murders.

[... 4 paragraphs ...]

There are close psychological connections in all cases—psychological web-works, and psychic recognitions that bring together the slayer and his victim, and these are known to the inner self. The stature and meaning behind the victim adds to the horrible nature of the act, and of course this is the point.

The point would not be nearly as clearly made, you see, were the victim a man giving himself to crime. He must be in one way or another a symbol of those idealized qualities that the individual and the massed natives of the land give lip service to. These ideals are highly vital and important. The strength of the inner unrecognized hatred and aggression can be disastrous, and yet it works for the service of the ideal.

[... 3 paragraphs ...]

They provide crisis points. Your nation, because of its greatness and ideals, must judge itself accordingly against those ideals. It therefore cannot afford to judge itself against others, find itself superior, and rest. Such murders would have been taken for granted in some other nations. Those who point the finger now however know, in one respect, that they have the right to do so since you are the ones who have set forth the ideals of peace and brotherhood. It is against these, then, that you must judge yourself.

[... 11 paragraphs ...]

Without these murders the nation would not know what was wrong with itself. The murders are symptoms, but without symptoms the patient will not realize that anything is wrong with the inner self."

—TES8 Session 414 June 5, 1969


• "And if a crime is to be assigned in humanity's terms, often the victim is as guilty as the murderer, in basic terms, in terms of guilt that no court can weigh."

• "You see perhaps havoc within the physical field, and this is indeed to be faced and dealt with, and set straight, as aid is given to the victims of a hurricane. [...]"

• "[...] There are those who murder, and there are those who seek to be slain."

—TES3 Session 145 April 12, 1965



https://nowdictation.com/q/Murderer+victim/

[Doro]

https://nowdictation.com/q/Murderer+victim/

[/quote]


"Now all of those issues, in one way or another appeared in your dream, where for the sake of understanding you became the victim. You then discovered that you were still "alive"—as of course the murdered victim does.

[... 4 paragraphs ...]"

—TPS5 Deleted Session September 20, 1978

I read further...
And here I am at a loss.
I too dreamed to be killed several times. It was in my 20s and I was in different dreams with different scenarios always hunted. Sometimes shot, often I escaped. Did I understand that correctly that something with my inner self was disturbing? Or how can I possibly interpret or understand that?


Then I dreamed 3 to 4 times exactly the same dream. My ex husband hunted me through a forest with the intention to kill me. After our 2 daughters were borne the horror trip began.... So I thought in this case of it as a warning but I did not believe this could possibly unfold in my life. But I thought that our dreams are other realities or possible selfs experiencing some probabilities. And not some future events. Maybe both?

And I ask myself seriously why did I  seek to be a victim? What did I want to understand or help my Self? 🤦�♀️

[strangerthings]

If you felt like a victim and had great insecurity, fear, doubting your inner confidence, felt neglected, fear for your life, scared and the list goes on, but mostly it is so strong that sometimes with some people this topic of whatever it is eats up the space for most other thoughts, it could be just nightmares.

Btw, you are also the hunter in the dreamstate. You play the parts in your dreams and create it. Or selected a particular scenario for reasons only you know.

You could have felt victimized and raging all at once. You may have needed an outlet for it.

Im just throwing mud on the wall thats all. We have an infinite multiverse and are multi dimensional. Are dreams arent any different.

I have turned toward a monster in my dreams and told it I love it. Everything went away after it turned into something else smiling. Actually that love became a part of me. I expanded.

Or your dreams are telling you something. More than one somethings. And sometimes we do not uncover a more full picture until the obvious layer(s) are revealed to yourself.

Being chased, fearing for your life, in a dream indicates to me, a high level of stress.

You had the same dream several times, pay attention to those. They are important.

Having zero information on this very personal event (and I am not wanting more info) I can tell you yes. "Prophetic" dreams happen.

Sometimes "danger", sometimes seeing death, sometimes trivial things like a band member quitting a band lol, anything really.

I use to have a specific dream over and over when I was younger. Still not quite sure what they were about. (And I remember them). Or maybe I do and I am choosing not that. Hahahah

Some people have dreams of where the killer is or the rapist. Not knowing anything else only finding out in a news story that someone was found or rescued. All kinds of stuff can be fortold in dreams.

But our inner self knows our limits!

We aren't going to be overloaded. It is not beneficial. 

Whatever you may have gone through, it is over.

If you had a type of warning dream that came true, your innermost self was trying to help you. We are ...our own very best friend. When we let us be.

We are beings of immense power. Eternal life. And an awesome consciousness!


I dont know if any of that was helpful and I will leave you with this one thing:

https://nowdictation.com/q/Nightmares/

(If I made typos I will be back later to correct them.  )

[Mark M]

"(With a smile:) Probable dictation: 😀What you must understand is this: Each of the events in each of your lives was "once" probable. From a given field of action, then, you choose those happenings that will be physically materialized. This operates in individual and mass terms.

Suppose that today your home was robbed. Yesterday, the theft was one of innumerable probable events. I chose such an example because more than one person would have to be involved – the victim and the robber. Why was your home ransacked and not your neighbor's? In one way or another, through your conscious thought you attracted such an event and drew it from probability into actuality. The occurrence would be an accumulation of energy, turned into action and be brought about by corollary beliefs.

You may be convinced that human nature is evil or that no one is safe from another's aggression or that people are motivated mainly by greed. Such beliefs attract their own reality. If you have anything worth losing, you are then automatically convinced that someone else will take it from you or try their hardest to do so. In your own way, you send out messages to just such a person. On basic levels your convictions will be quite similar, but one will see himself as the victim and one as the aggressor – that is, each of you will react differently to the same set of beliefs. However the two of you are necessary if a crime of that nature is or is to be committed.

The beliefs of both of you find justification in physical life and only reinforce themselves. The fear of robbers attracts robbers. If you think that men are evil, however, you are often not able to examine that as a belief but take it as a condition of reality.

NOPR Sess. 656, April 16, 1973

[inavalan]

"(With a smile:) Probable dictation: ...
NOPR Sess. 656, April 16, 1973

That's a good quote, a clear explanation. Thanks.

[Deb]

"(With a smile:) Probable dictation: 😀

Oh good lord, that's a great quote. I've read that book twice and that didn't jump out at me like it did here. Where have I been? Or has Seth been busy rewriting? I'll never be done reading the Seth materials. Thank God! Or ATI...  Or Me