~Speaking of Seth~

Hi All,


In regards to the coronavirus, I heard 2 interesting thought provoking things related to this topic today.


1.

In 2008 Sylvia Browne wrote a book titled, "End of Days".  In this book, she made the following future prediction. Sylvia Browne died in 2013. 

"In around 2020 a severe pneumonia-like illness will spread throughout the globe, attacking the lungs and the bronchial tubes and resisting all known treatments. Almost more baffling than the illness itself will be the fact that it will suddenly vanish as quickly as it arrived, attack again ten years later, and then disappear completely."

It'll be interesting to see if the rest of her prediction here comes true.


2.

During the Democratic Presidential Debate tonight between Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden, there was a brief discussion about the Mexican border and illegal aliens. The concept was mentioned that we won't be able to protect the lives of people here in the US from the coronavirus, if the illegal aliens who live here are afraid to seek out medical help for this disease if they're afraid of being deported.

Maybe one of the major purposes of this disease, has to do with making changes in the way we people here on earth do things, as Kryon indicated in his audio recording.


-jbseth

Hi All,

Hi Jbseth,

I was listening to one of my Yt channels, about the Spanish Flu.
It stopped Nov 1919, the CV started in Nov 2019.

I got to wondering if it/us? something isn't following a linear timeline here?

Amazing Sylvia foresaw a flu like phenomenon too! 
Makes me wonder if this is happening all at once, in one go,
though we perceive it in specific time frames

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14811#msg14811)
Maybe one of the major purposes of this disease, has to do with making changes in the way we people here on earth do things

jbseth, I agree. It may be that unlimited travel between continents is unsustainable.

My experience of this is similar to my reaction to when a hurricane is coming. Living in Florida, I have gone through that experience a few times, and I find these events to be fascinating, though not without concern. My mother is in a senior care facility 6 miles away, and they stopped all visitors last week. Libraries are closed until at least March 30 (and likely longer). Events that I would have gone to have been cancelled. Restaurants are still open for now. There are 4 known cases in my county, all quarantined. One daughter, in Maine, is a professor, and her classes are now online. Another daughter has a job that I hope she can continue to do safely.

Many of the most ill patients will be on one of four critical care ventilators that I designed or helped design. The idea of "flattening the curve" is to increase the chance that hospital beds, ventilators, and personnel are not overwhelmed at the peak of the pandemic.

I look forward to a time when we are past this, at which point a number of positive permanent changes will occur:

• Many businesses will have discovered that allowing some people to work at home actually works and will continue the practice. Same for education.

• The idea that healthcare is a basic right will become more popular, political resistance will decline, and in whatever form, more people will have access without going bankrupt.

• The environment will improve due to a permanent adjustment to reduced travel and less burning of fossil fuels.

• Corporations will multi-source components so they don't have to rely completely on components from one country. This may bring jobs back to this country.

Can you think of more positives?

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14820#msg14820)
Many of the most ill patients will be on one of four critical care ventilators that I designed or helped design.

That's very cool and it must be a good feeling to know you've contributed to helping others in a very real way.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14820#msg14820)
The environment will improve due to a permanent adjustment to reduced travel and less burning of fossil fuels.

I've already seen articles on the pollution over China improved dramatically due to factory shutdowns. Also the water in the Venice canals has cleared and fish have returned. I haven't verified that second one, but there are several articles to that effect. I think we're going to see more things like this as these closures and shutdowns continue. Had a conversation with my son and his GF today about the shortages—parents are having a hard time buying disposable diapers and baby wipes. More hoarding. I said we may have to go back to simpler times for a while, cloth diapers and wash cloths. They didn't seem to know about laundering cloth diapers and washcloths, lol. Less stuff in landfills, not just diapers. I typically cook from fresh ingredients and I also can and freeze things in Ball jars, so even my recycling has been shrinking. The FB canning group I belong to (Small Batch Bitches) has had a surge in membership lately, to the point that the Admin asked everyone what their reason for joining was out of curiosity. People are canning for the fist time and finding they get a lot of satisfaction from it.

I think things like this will be an eye-opener as people are forced to stay home and they have the chance to reflect on our hectic and throw-away society and how much of that they really need. Does the person who bought two huge shopping carts of TP at Costco, or rudely grabbed a shopping cart out from someone else's hands, or started a shouting or boxing match over some object in a store begin to look at themselves? Hopefully.

I've already witnessed people offering to pick up food and other necessities for friends, neighbors, seniors. And not only to people they know, but in general through NextDoor. I went to the grocery store today to pick up a couple of things and many of the empty shelves have been restocked, people are not as grabby and agitated as they were the past 3 days.

Yes to more working from home. There are a lot of jobs that can be done from home, not all, but enough to make changes in pollution levels, use of fuel. Less stress too.

And multi-sourcing is a great idea. Being dependent on another country for such crucial things such as pharmaceuticals and durable medical goods will be devastating if that country becomes hostile or if something like this virus, earthquake, hurricane or war shuts it down. I'd like to see our pharmaceuticals be made here, not only for the first reason I mentioned but also quality control. I've read some articles on lax standards (https://www.westonaprice.org/bottle-of-lies/), poor sanitary conditions and payoffs. Not that that can't happen here, but hopefully we'd have more control and accountability. My son has T1 diabetes, his life depends on being able to get insulin. As far as I can tell, his is manufactured in Puerto Rico.

Hi All,

I really hope the positives Larry H posted come from this too. Congrats too on being part of designing the ventilators!

Especially more manufacturing here at home. At one time America was pretty much completely self-sufficient. It would be wonderful to live that way again. To see other countries do the same as well.

I agree, if people have to stay home for awhile, maybe everyone will start asking questions about this reality, how they are living vs. how they would like to live, and start instituting and demanding positive changes for themselves; leading others to do the same.

Saw another change today, and while this may be temporary, it was wonderful to see. I went for a long walk, the weather was beautiful. Schools are closed, some offices, library, rec center, local community college. I saw things I probably haven't seen in 30 years and totally forgot about: people relaxing, talking, laughing, whole families doing things together. Normally here, in uber suburbia, kids are in school all day, parents are working, and the evenings and weekends are filled with school sports. Lots of rushing around, little time to relax and relate. Since so many things are shut down right now, families are "forced" to go out and walk, bike ride, play games, interact. Some little boys were playing in Big Dry Creek (which actually has water in it right now), the dads were nearby chatting. A couple of people were actually lying on their stomachs in the grass, looking around rather than staring at their phones. It all looked like something from a Normal Rockwell illustration. The good old days may be here for a little while.

Your experience warmed my heart, Deb! I'm going to visualize that happening everywhere.

Hi LarryH, Hi All,


LarryH. That's really great that you helped design these ventilator. I'm really glad that you did this as these will be really important right now. Thank you for doing that.  :) 



Here's a couple of other ideas I have:

People will begin to realize that we're all in this together. No one country, by itself, will be able to either contain or solve problems like this coronavirus issue or climatic change. We must all work together to solve these problems.

People will begin to see that we need more honesty from our government officials. The issue that the Chinese officials may have lied or denied the reality of this outbreak early on, instead of taking appropriate action which could have minimized it's affects, really doesn't work for any of us.  People will start to demand more honesty from all government officials all across the globe.

-jbseth

Hi All,

My neighbor across the street from us is an elementary school teacher. As my wife and I were walking around the block, this evening, we saw her and her husband out in their front yard and we had a brief conversation with them.

She told us that our local school district has just announced today that the schools in our part of the world (we live in a suburb of Portland, Oregon) which already were going to be closed until April 1, 2020, will now be closed until the end of April, 2020.

I'm wondering if there are other things like this going on where other members here live. Maybe we could keep each other informed of these things.


-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14836#msg14836)
I'm wondering if there are other things like this going on where other members here live. Maybe we could keep each other informed of these things.

Well sure, a reasonable request.

I'm near Denver. Different counties have made different restrictions. But for the most part schools are closed for at least two weeks for now. "For now" is the key operative. Libraries are closed. Some colleges. Stores have shortened their open hours, both grocery and department stores. Local recreation centers closed. Some gyms.

Is anyone else weirded out by this?

Here schools are closed. City playgrounds are closed. Bars are closed. Church services are canceled. Restaurants have curfews and are directed to cut capacity by 50%, and all tables need to be at least 6 feet apart. Grocery stores and Walmart are reducing hours to devote more time to cleaning. The first hour of business is for seniors only. I ate with a friend on the patio of a restaurant today, and business seemed normal. I'm not weirded out, though - more concerned for those who are more effected by this.

"Wave to me from a safe distance, I'm Irish."

Our 7-year-old grand-daughter has developed a cough. (Schools are still open in the UK). My sister, who is a nurse in London, has come down with fever and cough last night.

Hi All,

I went to Winco here late Monday morning (a grocery store that's typically open 24 hours) and they've changed their hours from 8 am to midnight. The other businesses in this outside mall had virtually no cars in the parking lot. Then I went to a Costco yesterday afternoon to pick up a prescription for my wife and they were queuing people up in a long line outside and only letting so many people in at a time. The line outside was fairly long and the lines in the registers inside were also fairly long.

The traffic on the roads seemed to be somewhat less than normal, but this could partly be the result of no school buses running right now.

I would definitely say that this is "different". My wife and I talked to our grandson yesterday and he told us that he and his fiancé and their kids were all holed up in their apartment right now and he thought that this was all very "interesting". He said that he'd never experienced anything like this, and in reply, we told him that we hadn't either.

I think that it's important for us that we make use of our understandings of the Seth teachings here to keep away from the "fear" that some people seem to be exhibiting as a result of this situation.  Here, I'm talking about the people who are buying out all the toilet paper for example. They seem to be reacting to fear (buying all they can get right now and not being open to sharing with others) and not coming from a place of love (buying only what they need right now so that these items will be available to others as well). This coming from a place where we know that we create our reality, All-That–Is will provide as needed, Framework 2 is of a good intent, and so aren't most people.

Sena, I'll send my prayers to you and your family and I'll see (visualize) your grand-daughter and sister as getting better and better in the days ahead.  :)

-jbseth

Things are similar here, but things change as far as cautions, closings, restrictions. I was surprised to see a strip mall gym open yesterday, when all of our neighborhood recreation centers are closed.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14845#msg14845)
They seem to be reacting to fear (buying all they can get right now and not being open to sharing with others) and not coming from a place of love (buying only what they need right now so that these items will be available to others as well). This coming from a place where we know that we create our reality, All-That–Is will provide as needed, Framework 2 is of a good intent, and so aren't most people.

Yes, fear, people feel a lack of control and so are over-buying and hoarding in order to feel like they are taking their control back. I'm so grateful for Seth, his information is reassuring on more than one level.

Young people (teens, 20s) don't seem concerned. Sounds like spring break is not being interrupted. My son and his GF (mid-20s) drove down to New Mexico yesterday for a planned vacation. They both have restaurant jobs, their hours are going to be cut in half when they get back. At least the restaurants will still be doing carry-out and deliveries. My son has two second jobs, dog walking and driving for DoorDash. He'll probably make more money delivering food because of the tips. Right now he's a cook, no tips in the kitchen.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14840#msg14840)
Our 7-year-old grand-daughter has developed a cough. (Schools are still open in the UK). My sister, who is a nurse in London, has come down with fever and cough last night.

I'm so sorry to hear that. They will be tested? As you know, I'm not a religious person, but I do pray at times and I said a silent prayer for them this morning, will keep them in my positive thoughts.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14847#msg14847)
They will be tested? As you know, I'm not a religious person, but I do pray at times and I said a silent prayer for them this morning, will keep them in my positive thoughts.

Deb, thanks for your prayer. Our grand-daughters cough has subsided. My sister's temperature is 38 degrees centrigrade, which is not bad. At present there is no testing in the UK even for hospital staff! Shocking. Only seriously ill hospital in-patients are tested.

Glad to hear they're doing ok—hopefully it's the regular flu or cold. 38C is not bad as you say, but it is a little higher than normal. They are saying many people are asymptomatic (which is a problem with spreading), and also others have mild symptoms. Your sister is a nurse, so she much have a pretty decent immune system. And I was thinking one of the reasons kids don't tend to get this virus is because they are loaded to the hilt with vaccinations, plus are always exposing each other to common viruses, so their immune systems have an advantage. I used to get sick all the time when I volunteered at my son's elementary school. Now I rarely get sick, maybe a mild cold every 2-3 years.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14849#msg14849)
At present there is no testing in the UK even for hospital staff! Shocking. Only seriously ill hospital in-patients are tested.

That IS shocking! I bet that's one of the many things that will be changing as a result of this virus.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14850#msg14850)
I bet that's one of the many things that will be changing as a result of this virus.

It will hopefully change. Today's paper is promising 25,000 tests a day.

Probably preaching to the choir here, but here are suggestions for simple meditation techniques to reduce stress during the pandemic: https://www.upworthy.com/heres-a-simple-proven-no-nonsense-meditation-technique-help-reduce-your-covid-19-anxiety?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=6927887b3e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_22_07_15_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-6927887b3e-238126517 (https://www.upworthy.com/heres-a-simple-proven-no-nonsense-meditation-technique-help-reduce-your-covid-19-anxiety?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=6927887b3e-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_22_07_15_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-6927887b3e-238126517)

Thanks Larry, that's great. I haven't meditated in a long time but I sure enjoy it when I do. I like guided meditations the most. I've always thought of myself as being more visual, but apparently I was wrong.

Now I'm going to listen to some Seth and can some beef stock. We're having a big snow storm today, a good day to stay indoors.

Hi All,

Hi Sena, 
I hope your sister and grand-daughter are alright and have nothing worse than the common cold, and get well soon!

I'm in a small town that's situated between 2 larger towns. One of those towns is Vegas. Apparently the Vegans have been coming here buying all they can and then taking those supplies and re-selling for top dollar at home. :(
Even though my town is small, there's a huge number of people that live around it in unincorporated outlying areas.
Our stores are their only reasonable local to them available resources. This is desert area, where gardening doesn't do well at all.

I did the bulk of my shopping and reasonable prepping, which was cook from scratch basics and staples, before the panic buying hit. All I need now is minimal items. Good thing cause that's about all that's available now. I miss my fresh stuff, as that's what I was mostly trying to go with. Unfortunately fresh doesn't survive the long haul :(

Went shopping yesterday. Just went to a smaller grocery chain and a dollar store. Funny enough the dollar store had way more than the grocery store. I guess thankfully, the Vegans missed that one, lol. What I needed and wanted was there, when I was. 5 minutes after they put out hamburger, it was gone. Even with a limit of 2 packages per person, at the grocery store.
I would have picked up a bag of potatoes, they were out, at both stores I went to.
Unless they come out with some kind of rationing system, I'm not sure how Everyone is going to get by.

I hear the schools are closed.  I guess in the bigger cities of this state, Az, bars and restaurants are closed. I don't go out to eat often so am not sure what the local restaurants are doing. I imagine my town will soon follow whatever guidelines and regulations the state government advocates.
Just heard this morning some parts of California have instituted martial law.

Emotionally I'm bouncing between days of hopeful and happy, the 5 stages of grief, and outright anger. I bet a big wave of anger is going to be coming from the collective soon.
As Seth says I hope we as a people use that anger as a catalyst and motivation to build a better system for all of us.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14856#msg14856)

Hi Sena, 
I hope your sister and grand-daughter are alright and have nothing worse than the common cold, and get well soon!

T.M., thanks for your wishes. Our grand-daughter is fine. I think my sister is having a fairly mild case of coronavirus.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14856#msg14856)
One of those towns is Vegas. Apparently the Vegans have been coming here buying all they can and then taking those supplies and re-selling for top dollar at home.

Behaving in that way may result in bad karma.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14860#msg14860)
Our grand-daughter is fine. I think my sister is having a fairly mild case of coronavirus.

Good news Sena, thank you for the update.

Two nights ago, I had a dream in which I was saying goodbye to my toddler son (that I don't have in waking life). He was dressed in a spacesuit and was about to go on a space mission alone, the first toddler in space. I encouraged him, told him I loved him and was proud of him, and watched him step onto the gantry to enter the spaceship.

My sense upon awakening was that this was related to the social distancing/isolation imposed by the pandemic. The toddler represents me in a new life condition, protected in a suit, but traveling into the unknown.

And then today, on unknowncountry.com, this article shows up: https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/three-spacemen-offer-advice-on-staying-sane-in-the-face-of-pandemic-based-isolation/ (https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/three-spacemen-offer-advice-on-staying-sane-in-the-face-of-pandemic-based-isolation/)

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14929#msg14929)
And then today, on unknowncountry.com, this article shows up: https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/three-spacemen-offer-advice-on-staying-sane-in-the-face-of-pandemic-based-isolation/

Larry, thanks for the link to that website. I found this article:

https://www.unknowncountry.com/dreamland/joseph-farrell-on-the-complex-geopolitical-crisis-being-caused-by-coronavirus-and-much-more/

"Joseph Farrell returns with an in depth discussion of the countries that are being hurt by the coronavirus situation and the ones that are benefiting from it–and yes, there are some. So, does this mean that the virus IS a bioweapon? The evidence is actually much more complex than the conspiracy theorists would have us believe, and as always, Joseph explores the situation from his unique, and uniquely informed perspective. Bioweapon or not, it is changing the geopolitical balance and possibly even destabilizing the regimes of some hugely powerful international players."

Hi LarryH,

Dreams always seem to be so full of symbolism. I think that each person is probably in the best position for interpreting their own dreams and I think that you've done it here.

Some of the things that I've picked up on, is the possibility that the toddler son in your dream, may also have represented your younger self.

The space suit may have represented a hazmat suit.

Going out into space alone, may have also represented "going it alone" or possibly "going out into public alone", which is something that many people are doing right now (to get groceries, TP, etc.).


Many times I've had dreams, where some time after having the dream, some of the dreams events or dream symbolism seem to actually show up in waking life. I definitely think that this is at least some of what was going on for you here in this dream, given the nature of the article in "unknown country".

Thanks for sharing this.

- jbseth

Here's a 6-minute YouTube of someone demonstrating how the ventilator that I designed can be used for four patients at once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=364&v=uClq978oohY&feature=emb_title (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=364&v=uClq978oohY&feature=emb_title)

I was not looking for this, it was a link in a news feed that I subscribe to. I had heard of someone using a different ventilator who claimed that it could be used on 9 patients at once. Most low-end ventilators would probably not be able to do this (such as the portable type that GM will be manufacturing for a different company).

VERY cool video, I love how there are people in times like these that get very resourceful and creative. And so rewarding for you, I'm sure, to be a help in a time like this. I bet you had no clue when you were designing it that it would be used to save lives in a pandemic. Want to go back and talk with the you that designed it?

Every day I hear stories of companies and individuals who really step up to the plate and help others, whether its donations of medical goods, money, food, or those that dig right into researching the virus, treatments, prevention and cures. And the people in the medical fields are working as hard as they can... all heroes in my mind.

BTW I thought your dream and interpretation were very cool, feels right to me. My dreams tend to be mundane and monotonous. I was having a dream about being in an amazing house this morning and was walking with and telling a young woman how I would love to be able to buy the house. When I work up, I realized we'd had had our arms around each other's waist as we were walking (we seemed to be related somehow) and my first thought was "I'm not keeping social distance in my dreams."  ::)

interesting article.
apologies if someone posted this already on another thread.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Yes, interesting article. The author appears to trust that China has been truthful in its reporting of cases and deaths and success in containing the virus outbreak. I've read that some Chinese documents have been leaked that indicate they have been totally underreporting figures, so I'd hate to rely on them for accurate data. Time will tell.

Yet I'm all in favor of "strong coronavirus measures" because I see that not everyone is willing to stay home for a few weeks on the "honor" system. In a unique situation like this, I have no problem with something like that being enforced. I wouldn't feel my personal freedoms were being violated as long as it's temporary. For now we're still allowed to go out for walks as long as we keep our distance. That's all I need, otherwise I'll have to walk circles in my back yard which would still be ok with me.

I found out the other day that the CDC has had a National Pandemic Strategy in place since 2000. I'm curious if the guidelines are being followed. I haven't read the documents, will take a look at them when I have time. The Implementation Plan is probably what I need to read, but it's 233 pages. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/national-strategy/index.html

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14954#msg14954)
The author appears to trust that China has been truthful in its reporting of cases and deaths and success in containing the virus outbreak. I've read that some Chinese documents have been leaked that indicate they have been totally underreporting figures, so I'd hate to rely on them for accurate data. Time will tell.

Deb, it appears that the Chinese have some explaining to do:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8163767/Downing-Street-says-China-faces-reckoning-coronavirus.html

Thank you for the link, it's an interesting and informative article. On the same page was this article on the markets in China being reopened. It made me feel sick.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8163761/Chinese-markets-selling-bats.html

"The market in Guilin was packed with shoppers yesterday, with fresh dog and cat meat on offer, a traditional 'warming' winter dish."

"The markets have gone back to operating in exactly the same way as they did before coronavirus.
"The only difference is that security guards try to stop anyone taking pictures which would never have happened before."

I'm speechless.

Hi All,

Sadly, the coronavirus is having its affects. Below are 3 items that I came across in the news today.

As a Seth reader, when I come across these stories, I end up having a strange mixture of "feelings" and I'm sure that many of you can relate to what I'm talking about here. It's an odd mixture of both sadness and joy.

When people pass, I recognize that we won't be seeing or hearing from them any longer in this reality and this brings on some sadness. However, I also believe that where they are going is a wonderful place. Not just a wonderful place but a really, really "Fantastic" place and this brings on feelings of much joy for them.

I don't believe that this place they are going is a bad or terrible place, regardless of what many religions would have us believe and I also don't believe that they are going off into some "nothingness".

Along with this, I also believe that we each create our own reality and given what Seth tells us in Mass Events, nobody dies who doesn't want to die and some people die at an almost an conscious level of doing so.

Then again, I believe that some, many, or perhaps all of these people may have been or are my "counterparts".

With this strange mixture of feelings I have, I thank them for the experiences that they brought and shared with us and the rest world while they were here, and I wish for them that "Peace be with them in their travels".

- jbseth






Musician Alan Merrill died in New York Sunday due to complications from the coronavirus. His daughter Laura Merrill confirmed the news on Facebook. He was 69.

Born in the Bronx in New York City, Merrill was a member of the band The Arrows along with drummer Paul Varley and guitarist Jake Hooker. While in the band, he wrote the song "I Love Rock 'n' Roll" which the band released in 1975. The song would later become a chart topper for Joan Jett & The Blackhearts in 1982.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Alan+Merrill+dies&filters=tnTID%3a%22791C802B-73C5-4378-8E76-FD744BFDC9D7%22+tnVersion%3a%223459430%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%220%22+tnOrder%3a%22e9eff2b1-0661-481c-b584-1af75aae71a7%22&FORM=BSPN01




CBS News producer and talent executive Maria Mercader died of Covid-19 in New York Sunday, CBS said. She was 54.

Mercader worked at CBS for three decades, getting her start in the network's page program, CBS said in a release. She most recently worked as a director of talent strategy.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Maria+Mercader+CBS&filters=tnTID%3a%2235D449AC-C9C9-458e-A2B8-0CC3ACE80D60%22+tnVersion%3a%223459435%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%221%22+tnOrder%3a%22e9eff2b1-0661-481c-b584-1af75aae71a7%22&FORM=BSPN01



Beloved Japanese comedian Ken Shimura has passed away a week after contracting the coronavirus. He was 70. The Tokyo native was revered in his home country, where he is a household name and has been called "Japan's Robin Williams."

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Ken+Shimura+dies&filters=tnTID%3a%22DBA2C2F7-A2B1-4761-BEF9-0707D05263EE%22+tnVersion%3a%223459435%22+segment%3a%22popularnow.carousel%22+tnCol%3a%2210%22+tnOrder%3a%22e9eff2b1-0661-481c-b584-1af75aae71a7%22&FORM=BSPN01

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14961#msg14961)
I don't believe that this place they are going is a bad or terrible place, regardless of what many religions would have us believe and I also don't believe that they are going off into some "nothingness".

jbseth, thanks for the information. We have to be ready to go when the time is right. My understanding is that for some people with Covid19, the end is relatively painless.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14961#msg14961)
When people pass, I recognize that we won't be seeing or hearing from them any longer in this reality and this brings on some sadness. However, I also believe that where they are going is a wonderful place. Not just a wonderful place but a really, really "Fantastic" place and this brings on feelings of much joy for them.

Yes, it certainly is a shame and hard to see the names of people we know as being infected or dying. I've been cutting back on my news exposure because it can be overwhelming.

I continue to remind myself of what I've been hearing in Mass Events, which helps, such as:

Quote from: Seth"People will die when they are ready to, following inner dictates and dynamics. A person ready to die will, despite any medication. A person who wants to live will seize upon the tiniest hope, and respond. The dynamics of health have nothing to do with inoculations. They reside in the consciousness of each being."
—NoME Chapter 1: Session 801, April 18, 1977

Quote from: Seth"To some degree, epidemics and recognized illnesses serve the sociological purpose of providing an acceptable reason for death — a face-saving device for those who have already decided to die. This does not mean that such individuals make a conscious decision to die, in your terms: But such decisions are often semiconscious (intently). It might be that those individuals feel they have fulfilled their purposes — but such decisions may also be built upon a different kind of desire for survival than those understood in Darwinian terms."
—NoME Chapter 1: Session 801, April 18, 1977

They are in a great place now. We also have no way of knowing whether any of these people would have died this year anyway, from something other than this virus. Like Kenny Rogers, Kobe Bryant, Lyle Waggoner, Max von Sydow, Robert Conrad, Kirk Douglas, and a bunch of other entertainers and celebs (https://ew.com/celebrity/stars-we-lost-2020-celebrity-deaths/?slide=6600992#6600992), young and old, that died this year. When I hear about someone like that dying, I do feel a twinge of sadness, because they brought people a lot of joy and will be missed.

Yesterday I listened to the chapter on mass meditations and really got a lot out of it, another thing I keep in mind when listening to or reading the news.

Chapter 2: 'Mass Meditations.' (A one-minute pause.) 'Health' Plans for Disease. Epidemics of Beliefs, and Effective Mental 'Inoculations' Against Despair:

Quote from: Seth"The breast cancer suggestions associated with self-examinations have caused more cancers than any treatments have cured (most emphatically). They involve intense meditation of the body, and adverse imagery that itself affects the bodily cells.2 Public health announcements about high blood pressure themselves raise the blood pressure of millions of television viewers (even more emphatically)."
—NoME Chapter 2: Session 805, May 16, 1977

Also:

Quote from: Seth
"It is impossible to meditate without a goal, for that intent is itself a purpose. Unfortunately, many of your public health programs, and commercial statements through the various media, provide you with mass meditations of a most deplorable kind. I refer to those in which the specific symptoms of various diseases are given, in which the individual is further told to examine the body with those symptoms in mind. I also refer to those statements that just as unfortunately specify diseases for which the individual may experience no symptoms of an observable kind, but is cautioned that these disastrous physical events may be happening despite his or her feelings of good health. Here the generalized fears fostered by religious, scientific, and cultural beliefs are often given as blueprints of diseases in which a person can find a specific focus — the individual can say: "Of course, I feel listless, or panicky, or unsafe since I have such-and-such a disease.""
—NoME Chapter 2: Session 805, May 16, 1977

I have to Say the Seth materials never go out of date, they are as pertinent and timely now as they were 40-50 years ago. Maybe even more so. I know we've all read Mass Events, but for me right now it means more than it did the first time around and certainly helps me keep perspective.

Thanks, Deb, I needed that as a counterpoint to having just read one young person's own experience with the virus.

On a bright note, Dyson has come up with a coronavirus-specific ventilator: https://www.upworthy.com/dyson-designed-a-coronavirus-specific-ventilator-in-just-10-days-and-is-set-to-make-15-000-of-them?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=ea0a44adcc-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_22_07_15_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-ea0a44adcc-238126517 (https://www.upworthy.com/dyson-designed-a-coronavirus-specific-ventilator-in-just-10-days-and-is-set-to-make-15-000-of-them?utm_source=The+Upworthiest&utm_campaign=ea0a44adcc-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_07_22_07_15_COPY_02&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_78f827fba6-ea0a44adcc-238126517)

The claim that they designed it in 10 days is absurd, though. The article even contradicts the headline: "The U.K. government approached Dyson to ask if they could help with medical equipment 10 days ago, and the innovative company has already come up with a new design for a ventilator specific to the current needs." So they had been working on it long before the government approached them. It's possible, even likely, that with Dyson's innovative background in moving air, they had been planning on entering the ventilator market before the virus hit, and they just simplified their design to address the specific functions needed for this pandemic.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14964#msg14964)
The claim that they designed it in 10 days is absurd, though. The article even contradicts the headline: "The U.K. government approached Dyson to ask if they could help with medical equipment 10 days ago, and the innovative company has already come up with a new design for a ventilator specific to the current needs." So they had been working on it long before the government approached them.

Your welcome for the counterpoint. Every time I start getting sucked into news reports I have to start asking myself questions and doing a little statistical investigating to keep things in perspective. Some stories I've read reminded me of when I was 17 and had mono. Misdiagnosed the first time, I relapsed and it was quite the 'rona experience—105° fever, slept for 7 days straight, throat so sore and swollen I couldn't even swallow saliva. I missed an entire semester of HS, so I can relate.

Of course the virus is the only thing in the news right now, so it seems like the end of the world. For instance, I haven't heard a peep about recent shootings in Chicago.

Dyson: How funny. Pretty snazzy design for a throw-together, huh?

I just heard yesterday that the UK government asked Dyson to design a ventilator and I thought, "smart" because the Dyson products are really very good. As they say, "Dyson's really suck." They understand vacuum or compression or whatever makes things like that work (I have no clue, thankfully). Yes, they would have had to been working on this far in advance. Good thing though.

I wonder why they (not knowing who the they is, the media or the UK), would lie about something like that?

Regardless, I love how so many manufacturing businesses are scrambling to repurpose their factories to make the things we all need so desperately right now.

I heard a few countries are rejecting Chinese-made equipment, products and test kits related to the virus. As they say, fool me once... 

And then there's this:

https://youtu.be/1QAWNautQMA

Is total lockdown the answer to the coronavirus?

Professor Graham Medley is Professor of "infectious disease modelling" at the London School of Tropical Medicine.

https://www.lshtm.ac.uk/aboutus/people/medley.graham

This is what he is saying about the lockdown:

"Graham Medley, an expert in the spread of infectious diseases, suggested the government had "painted itself into a corner" by imposing widespread restrictions on movement that he claims may cause more damage than the epidemic itself.

He suggested the potential harm caused by the restrictions included economic damage. "I don't mean to the economy generally, I mean to the incomes of people who rely on a continuous stream of money and their children, particularly the school closure aspect," he told The Times.


"There will also be actual harms in terms of mental health, in terms of domestic violence and child abuse, and in terms of food poverty."

"He argued that the UK may still have to reconsider the herd immunity strategy to "allow people to catch the virus in the least deadly way possible", the newspaper claimed.

This would involve accepting the heightened risk to the elderly rather than harming younger generations with rising unemployment, domestic violence and mental illness, it suggests.

Professor Medley, of the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, also reportedly claimed that the epidemic would inevitably peak again once the lockdown was loosened and people returned to work.

He has previously argued against rushing into banning football games or closing schools, saying that it "feels good but isn't necessarily evidence-based".

"My problem with many countries' strategies is that they haven't thought beyond the next month," he told The Atlantic magazine in early March.

"The UK is different. We're at the beginning of a long process, and we're working out the best way to get there with the least public-health impact."

"It followed reports that the prime minister was relying on the strategy of creating natural immunity among the population by allowing the disease to spread, rather than impose lockdowns of the kind seen in China and Italy.

Amid widespread criticism of the government's approach, health secretary Matt Hancock insisted that herd immunity was "a scientific concept, not a goal or strategy".

"Professor Medley himself described herd immunity as a side-effect of the main goal of delaying and reducing the peak of infections, often referred to as "flattening the curve". A week later, the prime minister ordered the closure of pubs and restaurants. The national lockdown then followed on 24 March."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/coronavirus-herd-immunity-lockdown-boris-johnson-graham-medley-a9447021.html

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14996#msg14996)
Is total lockdown the answer to the coronavirus?

Hi Sena,

Is there anyone who really knows the answer to this question?

I'm not sure there is.


-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14998#msg14998)
Is there anyone who really knows the answer to this question?

I'm not sure there is.

jbseth, that is correct. Even the best scientists are groping in the dark. Trump may be right to ignore some scientific advice. He has said wearing a mask is voluntary. I am not wearing one. I am washing my hands more frequently than usual.

Hi Sena,

While I'm uncertain that anyone really knows what we should be doing, in regards to the lockdown and many other coronavirus related issues, there's no way I'd follow the advice of President Trump on any of these issues, without first looking into them myself.  This is based upon my experience of the many ill-advised comments that he has already made so far during his Presidency.  I definitely wouldn't decide "not to wear a mask", just because "he" says that we don't need to.



I'm not sure that wearing a mask is really necessary. This comes from comments made by Seth about health and illness and how nobody gets ill who doesn't choose to.

I also feel that I have some social responsibility to those people who don't hold these same beliefs and who do "believe" that these masks will keep them safe.

Right now, it seems that masks are in short supply and I've been hearing stories of doctors and nurses, who are working on the front-lines, so to speak, not having enough for themselves. Given all of this, and given my understanding that many in the medical profession do believe that masks are helpful, I'd rather not wear a mask because I don't believe that I need one (this is based upon what Seth tells us and not President Trump). By me not choosing to wear masks, this will make them available to those people who believe that these masks will keep them safe.


These are just my own personal thoughts on this issue. I'm definitely not advising you or anyone else here that they either should or shouldn't wear a mask.


- jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14997#msg14997)
I think that excessive lockdown can cause apathy and hopelessness

Or by Seth's quote above, apathy and hopelessness can cause lockdowns? I'm attaching a photo of a NYC subway train Thursday during rush hour. With what NY is going through, they are still doing this! And yet, there ARE people who have to go to work and can afford no other way to get there. New Yorkers tend to not own cars. I imagine with the shut downs, less trains and buses are running. What to do?

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14997#msg14997)
In regards to Trump, I didn't vote for him. You don't have to worry about offending me, if you wish to say something about him.

Please don't go there. I've cut down on my news exposure, Facebook, and now even the NextDoor app which are all political battlegrounds these days. I think the virus is stressful  enough, I'd really like to keep this forum as free from politics as possible. I really need a break.

My take: In hindsight, considering the size of the pandemic, I suppose one could say that any governmental leader, at any level (city/county/state/country), in any country in the world, has not handled this pandemic "effectively." The problem is that no one has experience with this new virus and the magnitude of infection. We're being told something new every day, recommendations change daily based on what is being learned, all countries are scrambling to get medical supplies and do the best they can. Even our country's medical experts keep changing their recommendations daily. We are still learning about what makes this virus tick. So if there is a "right" way to handle this, no one knows what that is yet. And as people prove they can't be trusted to shelter in place voluntarily, leaders will have to tighten restrictions and then get accused of violating people's rights. Or not tighten restrictions and then get blamed for deaths and accused of being negligent. No winners.

Except... China's government has been praised by the WHO for the way they handled and contained the virus.

I saw this morning that China now has a representative on the UN Human Rights Council, where it will play a central role in picking human rights investigators "including those looking for freedom of speech, enforced disappearance and arbitrary detention."  :P

Remind me, what planet am I on?

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14997#msg14997)
In regards to Trump, I didn't vote for him. You don't have to worry about offending me, if you wish to say something about him.

Please don't go there.


Hi Deb,

No problem, and I agree.  The only thing that I was trying to do there was to let Sena know that I'm not a Trump fan. I should have said that instead.


Your comments about WHO praising China for the way they handled this coronavirus, kind of reminds me of the idea of putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

-jbseth

The first Tesla-donated ventilator to be installed in NY is the one that I designed: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-medtronic-ventilators-installed-ny-hospitals/ (https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-medtronic-ventilators-installed-ny-hospitals/)

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15006#msg15006)
Your comments about WHO praising China for the way they handled this coronavirus, kind of reminds me of the idea of putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

Ha ha, the idea of them being involved with human rights issues is just as funny considering how many people they have "disappeared." The one I've heard was "allowing China's oppressive and inhumane regime to choose the world investigators on freedom of speech, arbitrary detention and enforced disappearances is like making a pyromaniac into the town fire chief." :)

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15007#msg15007)
The first Tesla-donated ventilator to be installed in NY is the one that I designed: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-medtronic-ventilators-installed-ny-hospitals/

That's awesome! And they're Medtronic! My son has T1 diabetes, has been using Medtronic pumps since he was 9. They've been very good—a great company and reliable equipment for us. Hopefully you're getting some sort of royalty from the design. When I worked at IEEE way back when they made me sign a document saying anything I designed while working for them was their property forever and always. Like I could design anything useful... I was secretary/fulfillment for their correspondence course Technically Write by Prof. Blicq. It was all by postal service then, maybe I should have invented the internet.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15008#msg15008)
That's awesome! And they're Medtronic!

The company that I designed the ventilator for was Puritan-Bennett. Before the vent was introduced in 1998, the company was purchased by Nellcor. Then, Nellcor Puritan Bennett was purchased by Mallincrodt. Then Tyco Healthcare purchased Mallincrodt. Shortly after, practically everybody in the company was laid off. Then the CEO of Tyco was sent to prison. Then, as a way of escaping the bad name that Tyco had earned, Tyco Healthcare was spun off as (the now unfortunately named) Covidien. Then, Covidien spun off most of Mallincrodt, but kept the ventilator business. Finally, Medtronic purchased Covidien. So you will see different names on the same ventilator, depending on when it was manufactured. The one in the picture has the Nellcor Puritan Bennett logo on it, so it was an early unit, probably about 20 years old.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15008#msg15008)
Hopefully you're getting some sort of royalty from the design.

Nope, as an employee in any of my jobs, there were no royalties. In some jobs, I was paid a token for having my name on a patent, and in one job, when they sold the patents to another company, I shared in the proceeds. I have at least 15 patents, all owned by the companies or clients that I worked for (I've lost track - the process is so long and drawn out that I sometimes find out years later that a patent has been granted).

Hi All,

I saw this article today and thought I'd post it here. Bishop Gerald Glenn, leader of the New Deliverance Evangelistic Church, a church located in the area of Richmond, Virginia, has just died of the coronavirus. Apparently Bishop Glenn addressed the pandemic in his church that was attended by dozens of people, on March 22, 2020, when officials were calling for social distancing.

Sadly, the article says that the services were being held to support church members who were scared.

Ironically, and I don't think that this is funny in any way, I believe the bishop made a powerful point via his death. I think that this is an example of exactly what Seth was talking about in Mass Events, when he says that some people opt to die in an epidemic, in order to make a powerful point, via their death. 


http://www.nydailynews.com/coronavirus/ny-virginia-pastor-bishop-go-glenn-dies-from-coronavirus-20200413-h6mm24errzcltgmajwkaxzl6dm-story.html

-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15127#msg15127)
Ironically, and I don't think that this is funny in any way, I believe the bishop made a powerful point via his death. I think that this is an example of exactly what Seth was talking about in Mass Events, when he says that some people opt to die in an epidemic, in order to make a powerful point, via their death.

jbseth, perhaps the powerful point was to disprove evangelistic doctrines? The way I understand evengelism is that they claim that only their group is "saved". According to evangelism (and Cathoiicism), Seth is satanic:

https://youtu.be/txQZe0G3WgM

Hi All,

In regards to my previous post about the bishop, I also suspect there may have been some things going on here for him in regards to what Seth calls "invisible beliefs" (Seth talks about these in NOPR).

Did this bishop perhaps hold some invisible beliefs about why this coronavirus suddenly seemed to appear in our reality? For example, did this bishop think that this coronavirus suddenly appeared because it was a sign from God that resulted from the fact that God is displeased with some of mankind's choices? 

Along with this, I also wonder whether this situation had anything to do with him dying as a result of being a "victim of belief" (Seth talks about "victims of belief" in NOME, Ch6, S835).

-jbseth

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15128#msg15128)
jbseth, perhaps the powerful point was to disprove evangelistic doctrines? The way I understand evengelism is that they claim that only their group is "saved". According to evangelism (and Cathoiicism), Seth is satanic:

Hi Sena, Hi All,

I don't know about the point being to disprove evangelistic doctrine. That could be, but based upon the article, it seems to me that his daughter at least, has recognized a strong need that people participate in social distancing right now.

I have no doubt that many members of various Christian churches would consider Seth's messages as being nothing more than the words of the devil. That's too bad for them as I find his messages to be very insightful.

However, I also happen to know that not all Christian churches believe in this. The members of the "New Thought" Christian Churches, like "Unity" and "The Centers for Spiritual Living"  are very much open-minded, with a religious philosophy that's similar to Seth's and that derives from people like "Emerson", whom Seth said was a Speaker. Since I'm both aware of this, and since my wife and I occasionally attend one of these churches, I don't bucket "all" Christian churches together into this category.


On a more personal note, unfortunately, I've been having some problems with my laptop lately and it doesn't play youtube videos that people post on the Seth forum.  :(

Sometimes it will and sometimes it won't even play youtube videos at other locations on my laptop. I've got to fix this problem because several Seth readers like yourself have posted many good videos here in the last month or so, that I haven't been able to watch.

-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15129#msg15129)
For example, did this bishop think that this coronavirus suddenly appeared because it was a sign from God that resulted from the fact that God is displeased with some of mankind's choices? 

jbseth, the bishop may well have thought that certain people were deserving of God's punishment, and that God sent the virus to those people.

(https://i.ibb.co/JH4Szyj/Spanish-flu.png) (https://ibb.co/vkGMJQ4)

This graphic is from this website:

https://voxeu.org/article/coronavirus-meets-great-influenza-pandemic

It shows the percentage of the population which died in the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918-1919. For instance, 5% of the pop of India died,  less than 1% in the U.S.A. and U.K.

Hi all,

This is a generally related type of post; it applies to what the coronavirus is bringing us, as well as to what comes after.  I hope it's OK in this topic.

My understanding is that everyone dies according to their own overall life and death plan, made before they were born.  Some say an individual can modify their plan during their life, and change the end date.  Maybe, maybe not.

Regardless of the what the real cause of death might be (specific beliefs, etc.), it seems like it was something the individual planned to experience.

I see a couple of very general ways to look at those who die in the time leading up to what we're seeing now, and those who are dying now.

The first way to consider this for me, is the bypassing of difficult times.  My best friend, and wife from a former life, died a little over a year ago.  Also, both of my ex-fiance's parents died in the last few years.  The current global situation made me realize how smart they were.  They chose to leave before all this happened.  Even more significant, they chose to leave before what is starting to be described as the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression.  So, I'm impressed with their planning skills.

On the other hand, it seems we learn a lot by going through difficult times.  So I would not be surprised if some number of the people who have died recently, and who have planned to die from this virus, have another plan to put into place.  And that would be to come back in new bodies in the next few years.  They will get an entirely different learning experience from those of us who lived during what will likely have been the peak of the current civilization, and who will be missing what we used to have.  Maybe some of these people will help bring into place the new way of living, an essentially new civilization, that Seth has described will be in place by 2075.  It's going to be quite a ride to get there by the looks of things.

So when I hear about this or that person passing away, famous and/or highly talented or not, I like to think more along the lines of "good on ya, mate, what's next for you?"

Certainly those left behind who cared for them will miss them.  I miss my best friend, but I know I cannot lose her.  She was, and is, quite the character.  We've had a lot of adventures together over many lifetimes, and I look forward to seeing what her next antics will be.

I think in time, certainly by 2075 if Seth is right, we'll all be less distraught by changes in the focus of a soul from here to there, at whatever level and wherever "there" might be.

And I still believe that the difficult times we're seeing, and those coming that we can't see yet, will help us eventually come together to form this new civilization much faster than we otherwise would.

The harder it gets, the closer we're getting.  But, it sounds like it's going to be amazing when we come out on the other side of the changes.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15132#msg15132)
jbseth, the bishop may well have thought that certain people were deserving of God's punishment, and that God sent the virus to those people.

Hi Sena,

Yes. that too.

If so, I wonder if he thought that he was a member of that group?

Quote from: Jack (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15134#msg15134)
My best friend, and wife from a former life, died a little over a year ago.  Also, both of my ex-fiance's parents died in the last few years.  The current global situation made me realize how smart they were.  They chose to leave before all this happened.  Even more significant, they chose to leave before what is starting to be described as the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression.  So, I'm impressed with their planning skills.

On the other hand, it seems we learn a lot by going through difficult times.  So I would not be surprised if some number of the people who have died recently, and who have planned to die from this virus, have another plan to put into place.  And that would be to come back in new bodies in the next few years.

Jack, thanks for sharing your personal experience with us. If I could take you up on the last sentence I have quoted, you are right they may come back to Planet Earth in the next few years, or they may go to a different solar system or different universe.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15137#msg15137)
If I could take you up on the last sentence I have quoted, you are right they may come back to Planet Earth in the next few years, or they may go to a different solar system or different universe.

Hi Sena,

You're welcome.

I think you're absolutely correct.  But let's go one further - they might do both, maybe at the same time.

I read a story by Robert Moss (mossdreams.com (https://mossdreams.com/)) in one of his books about where he was sick, and I believe in a coma.  He experienced an entire life on another planet in that time.  I think his story is an accurate depiction of what can and does happen.  The key is the variability of time from different levels.  A soul can do far more at one level than in another, in a given period of time at the lower level.  I think Seth mentioned somewhere that there are entities whose experience is such that a blink of an eye for them is about the same as the entire existence of our universe.  Anyway, if we can experience another planet, in another solar system in another galaxy while in a coma, we can certainly at the very least have that experience at this same level, between lifetimes on this planet.

This is one of several reasons I'm not freaked out as much as one might expect about global warming.  This is not the only planet we learn on.  We want to take care of any planet we're on, but sometimes our learning involves what happens when we don't.  I think in time, Earth will be fine, once we stop trying to kill it.

I am curious about the structure of possible multiple universes and our connections to them.  For me, any level of life that is connected to this level, would be in the same universe.  In other words, when my body expires, I think my focus shifts to a level of energy that's connected very directly to here, but has a different speed of light, and that speed varies at different levels.  It's still here (in this universe), but not here where we can sense it directly.  Also, the multiple universe idea of each decision leading to a branch of life activity in an alternate universe, to me is still in what I would consider this universe.  It's not a burning question of mine right now, but I'd like to understand what is truly a different universe, and I'm not sure if we would be directly connected from this universe to one I would truly consider a different one.  To me it's probable that all universes are connected, but I haven't spent any time mulling the concept or the construction that would allow it.

Quote from: Jack (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15138#msg15138)
I think in time, Earth will be fine, once we stop trying to kill it.

Jack, I respect your view, but I don't share your optimism. I have just started reading "Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow".

https://www.ynharari.com/book/homo-deus/

QuoteAs the self-made gods of planet earth, which projects should we undertake, and how will we protect this fragile planet and humankind itself from our own destructive powers? The book Homo Deus gives us a glimpse of the dreams and nightmares that will shape the 21st century.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15139#msg15139)
I have just started reading "Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow".

Sena,

For myself sometimes "ignorance is bliss" is very applicable, and perhaps leads to the optimism.  And sometimes what appears to be optimism is simply not addressing or focusing on the less optimistic parts.

I looked at the book's site, and my first impression is that the future the author is expecting can never happen due to things he's not looking for or aware of.  I don't think we'll be able to continue on our present path with the strength and the time required to apply that strength in a negative fashion for his fears to be fully realized.  Certainly I can see why he'd put his ideas forth as described on the home page, given what most people might expect of the future.  And maybe he'll be right about the future; maybe just for the short term, maybe for a bit longer.

I've just seen too much content from a variety of sources that shows we're on a very different path.  A path that in the short term will likely be far more difficult for humans than what "Homo Deus" might describe.  However, with eventually far less humans attacking the earth trying to kill it, with far less of the resources we have now (these are the parts I left out), I think Earth will be fine eventually.  Earth may not be exactly like what we have now, probably worse in some places, but also in time likely far better in some places than it is now.

I hope that doesn't totally remove any perceived optimism.  :)

from a while back, March 16, 2020:

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=14820#msg14820)
...I look forward to a time when we are past this, at which point a number of positive permanent changes will occur:...

Can you think of more positives?

Hi LarryH, all,

It would be nice to see universal basic income eventually come from all this.

I saw where the Pope finally put his hat in the ring as in favor of universal basic income.  It's a big hat.

Then, I realized this morning the likely reason the Pope is just now announcing his church is in favor of this.  I'm guessing it's because their revenue is down, and he expects his church to get a 10% tithe of the basic income his members will receive.  I'd love to be wrong, but one would think any other reason would have had them pushing for this decades ago.

Regardless of why it happens, it would be a major improvement to get this implemented sooner rather than later.

Hello Jack, Hi All,

Hey, thanks for your interesting comments here.

My sister died of cancer just a few months ago, in mid - January, 2020, and I've wondered whether or not this coronavirus event had anything to do with her decision. While the timing sure seems to be really interesting, I have to admit that I have no idea, whether it or not it had anything to do with her specific situation. Who's to say?

I'm open to the possibility that people also can and do reincarnate backwards in time.

In Janes book, "The Education of Oversoul Seven", Oversoul Seven was an entity who had four personalities on earth, Ma-ah, Joseph, Lydia and Proteus. In this story Joseph lived in the 16th or 17th century and Lydia, lived in the 20th century. After Lydia died, when she reincarnated, she opted to come back again, as the daughter of Joseph and his wife Bianca, who lived in the 16th or 17th century. Thus, in this case, Lydia reincarnated backwards in time.

I think that one of the reasons why Jane may have written this story was to express this concept that reincarnation can also occur backwards in time.

I really like your philosophy of, "good on ya, mate, what's next for you?"

I kind of think that we are all like actors and life is just a big free-form play. Before we come into this world, we each create a general guideline about what the present play is to be all about along with some general guidelines as to what our particular character is all about including what this character wants to do and accomplish in the play.

Then, when we are born.

After being born, we discover that the guidelines were just that, guidelines, and the play is all improvisation and very creative. As the play goes along, we go with the flow, making real-time active choices for our characters in the play.

Then, at some point, we begin to get tired of playing this same character and this same role in this play and so we opt out of it.

Then once we opt out, after we've taken some time to refresh ourselves, we contact our agent and start looking for another play needing another actor, where we can once again hone our acting skills via participating as a different character in another play.

-jbseth

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15128#msg15128)
According to evangelism (and Cathoiicism), Seth is satanic:

As I was told by a born again neighbor and a relative, anything that does not extoll the virtues of the savior Jesus Christ, comes from Satan. That's the test.

This same relative is taking none of this virus seriously in any way, because she knows that the Lord will protect her. BTW she's VERY good about making her own reality, always has been, because of her strong belief in Jesus. It's just amazing to watch her create.

Apparently her belief in protection from God is stronger than the bishop's was.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15132#msg15132)
jbseth, the bishop may well have thought that certain people were deserving of God's punishment, and that God sent the virus to those people.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15135#msg15135)
If so, I wonder if he thought that he was a member of that group?

Or maybe in his own way he sacrificed himself for the "good" of others? I bet there are more parishioners than his daughter that learned from his mistake. I need to reacquaint myself with the personalities of Jim Jones and David Koresh, there may be clues there.

As far as people not respecting nature or the planet, I still feel that the earth is very good at taking care of itself and it's the humans I worry about. Look at how quickly nature is entering less traveled areas now that things have slowed down. How quickly the pollution has cleared. The waters clearing, dolphins returning to the canals in Venice. In a matter of weeks, compared to how long it's taken mankind to pollute those areas. No one really knows yet (and may never know) exactly how the virus was released, but it's seems coincidental that it came from animals (nature), people are getting sick and dying, and nature is recovering because of it. Even world economics are crashing because of this "gift from nature." These types of things will continue to happen until we get it right. The virus is showing us our weaknesses and many things that need improvement. Not to mention a very clear message about our effect on the environment. Humans still don't recognize that we are a part of nature, not apart from it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/10/coronavirus-empty-streets-around-the-world-are-attracting-wildlife.html

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15143#msg15143)
I still feel that the earth is very good at taking care of itself and it's the humans I worry about.

Deb, 1.7 million viruses transmitted from wild animals to man may ensure a beautiful, human-free Earth? The Anthropocene was good while it lasted, produced some great music which other animals could not have done.

Lizards and rats in an Indonesian "wet" market:
(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article21851766.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_I200411_132428_972335oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000209869313o.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropocene

Hi jbseth, all,

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15142#msg15142)
My sister died of cancer just a few months ago, in mid - January, 2020

@jbseth, I hope you had been as prepared for your sister's death as I was for my friend Norma's death from cancer last year.

Norma had a dream 4 years before her death that made it clear her time was coming.  It even described what she was wearing when I saw her the last time she was in the hospital.  Her dream included her being given a very boring floral print dress with "obituary" printed across the butt.  She would not be uh, caught dead, in a floral print like that.  I knew when I saw the hospital gown they'd given her, it was from her dream, and she would not be leaving the hospital alive.  The floral print was exactly what I'd pictured in my head when she'd told me the dream 4 years before, and it's interesting that the back and butt is typically open on a gown like that, where the dream had written "obituary" across the butt of the dress.  Pretty impressive dream of hers if you ask me.  Beyond that, I was given quite strong, and frequent intuitive hits that her time was coming.  She was a former nurse, among other things.  I was elected by her son and her sister to be in the room when her body was disconnected from the machines.  I think Norma even arranged it from another level that the nurse in the room with me had had a dream a year before his ex-fiance died, showing exactly how she was going to die - and in the dream it was from an operation he was studying at the time of his dream - 100% accurate.  So this nurse and I got to talk extensively about dreams, and it didn't seem like he got to do that much.  Norma is quite the character to have set that up, and to have prepared me over the years for her departure from this plane.  I told her the whole time I was going to reverse haunt her if she passed before me.  I haven't quite figured out how to do that yet.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15142#msg15142)
I'm open to the possibility that people also can and do reincarnate backwards in time.

It seems like reincarnating backwards should be something we can do.  And I read "The Education of Oversoul Seven" a few years ago, although I don't specifically recall the backwards reincarnation part.  I do remember that I loved that book.

I think Seth said our lives are not sequential, but are all happening at once.  Even if he did not, I think that's the case.  If time does not really exist, it would seem we incarnate forwards and backwards, all at the same time.

Now if our lives are simultaneous, that seems to imply the entire set of lives is planned out before any are begun.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15142#msg15142)
I kind of think that we are all like actors and life is just a big free-form play...

I very much would like your description of the play of life to be how it works.

I think about this a lot.  I don't think we can understand it too well without a good understanding of how time works, and precisely how thoughts work.  Since all events are said to be simultaneous, it seems we need this understanding of time and thoughts to more fully understand how creating works.  I like that it seems like it works, it seems like we make choices along the way, but I want to know how it works.

For me, it sometimes feels like I'm being taught by higher levels of myself and what I guess we'd call my guides from higher levels.  And my skill level is comparable to occasionally wining at checkers at the community recreation center, and the higher level teachers are international champions of tri-level chess.  Oh, and they think they're funny, with the lessons they give me (yes, I know I agreed to them at some level).  The thing is, they are often hilarious.

I love reading posts on here and replying, but for now, I gotta get back to the wax-on, wax-off of life (after one more post, about Kevin Costner).

Kevin Costner is prescient.

He knew the coronavirus was coming, as well as fast sea level rises, and he made movies out of all this.

I live in Fort Lauderdale.  Over the last few weeks, I've been seeing huge cruise ships, just sitting off the coast, 2 and 3 at a time, a few miles out.  We know they are not getting used, and it's possible they may never be used again, or at least some of them.

I'm also seeing what might be oil tankers, and cargo ships out there.  It seems like more than one might normally see at a time.  Who knows how many of these are in use, and how many are just sitting there.

Also, it seems like every week we hear that this ice sheet or that glacier is melting way faster than we thought, and each one can raise the sea level by 100 meters (ok, slight exaggeration on the rise, but hey, it's a post about Kevin Costner, gotta go big).

"Waterworld" is coming soon to an ocean, and some land, near you.  Only this time, it includes cruise ships!

Have you seen the news in the last few days?

It seems our federal government might be letting the Post Office fade away.

I guess we better start getting our horses ready.

"The Postman" will be riding to your town shortly.

New California study shows $1 billion silver lining due to coronavirus shelter-in-place orders:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/20/1938864/-New-California-study-shows-1-billion-silver-lining-due-to-coronavirus-shelter-in-place-orders (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/4/20/1938864/-New-California-study-shows-1-billion-silver-lining-due-to-coronavirus-shelter-in-place-orders)

I'm really enjoying all the unexpected bonuses from the shutdowns, such as less pollution, wildlife coming out of hiding, families spending time together. People getting exercise! I see people out jogging, biking and walking that look like they haven't exercised in years. They may even lose a few pounds. I've seen families out fishing.

Dept of Transportation has been getting roads repaired in record time as they can cut traffic down to one lane any time of the day, even on highways.

Funny, just this morning I saw a fire truck go up a main road near my house and suddenly realized I hadn't seen or heard one in a while. There's a fire department a few blocks from my house and I'm used to hearing sirens all day long as there are a lot of high-traffic intersections and highways in the area. Noise pollution has certainly gone down.

"The self cannot get the virus. The self cannot die."

Local (to me) spiritual teacher, author of The Untethered Soul and The Surrender Experiment, Mickey Singer speaks about the pandemic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbs12aEZP6A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nbs12aEZP6A)

Hi LarryH, Hi All,

In regards to the statement, the self doesn't die, in NOME, Seth says something similar.


NOME, Ch1, S801:

Dying is a biological necessity, not only for the individual, but to insure the continued vitality of the species. Dying is a spiritual and psychological necessity, for after a while the exuberant, ever-renewed energies of the spirit can no longer be translated into flesh.

Inherently, each individual knows that he or she must die physically in order to survive spiritually and psychically (underlined). The self outgrows the flesh. ...


- jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15129#msg15129)
Did this bishop perhaps hold some invisible beliefs about why this coronavirus suddenly seemed to appear in our reality? For example, did this bishop think that this coronavirus suddenly appeared because it was a sign from God that resulted from the fact that God is displeased with some of mankind's choices?

jbseth, dying of a heart attack is boring. The bishop got a lot more sympathy because he died of the coronavirus. If you watch TV you can see the outpourings of sympathy.
Hysterical perosnality is a personality disorder marked by immaturity, dependence, self-centeredness, and vanity, with a craving for attention, activity, or excitement, and behavior that is markedly unstable or manipulative.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hysterical-personality

Sena (and anybody who has not already answered these two questions):

1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

2. To what extent do you agree or disagree with guidelines such as social distancing, many businesses closed, wearing masks in grocery stores, etc.?

Hi All,

Hi Larry,

1.  Society facing conditions and inequalities it's been becoming aware of for awhile.
There are some very positive things that can come from this all.
I'm very hopeful more communities will become self-sufficient, and caring for its local members.
People becoming at least more self-sufficient with gardening, less reliant on any outside system.
People understanding how to medically take care of themselves.
Less global, more local :)

2. I'm in a very small town, with few cases. I am avoiding interaction with crowds as much as possible. At first I was wearing gloves and a scarf for a mask. Now, I have them with me, but am not wearing as much, depending on circumstances. I try to shop during off hours. If I go to a crowded place, then I will wear them.
Not because I actually believe in the virus much anymore.
Because I don't want to add any more  fear or infringement to other people

Eta: probably less than 25% of people I see in the local stores are wearing masks and gloves

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15308#msg15308)
Eta: probably less than 25% of people I see in the local stores are wearing masks and gloves

I also feel there will some good changes from this incident. I have to say, I'm feeling like a freaking survivalist right now because somehow I'm prepared for just about anything. It's not intentional (i.e. preparing for a disaster), it's just that my interests have left me amazingly independent. Maybe because my parents grew up during the depression and I learned from them. But my life so far has not been affected much, other than the shopping limitations.

I would say 99% of the people in my grocery stores have masks of some sort, often worn under their noses, lol. Many bandanas. I finally broke down and made masks just to pacify others. I've actually seen people driving, cycling and hiking wearing masks! I put one on for the first time yesterday to visit the grocery story, and hated it. I hate having anything cover my face, it feels like I'm being suffocated.

The town I'm in has a population of 107,000 (it's not even a real town, it's just a suburb). 113 cases of the virus. People are taking the social distancing very seriously, which is fine. I'd rather see that, than people defying the restriction and then us getting a more severe lockdown. I really need the freedom of taking a daily hike.

Last week a retired police officer was handcuffed and arrested in front of his 8 year old daughter, because they were playing catch in a park. Not in my town, but up north in Broomfield. People are "ratting" on others and it's encouraged. Drones being employed. My mind keeps going back to The Sound of Music.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

I don't know yet. But I think there's more than one. Today I saw someone post on Facebook today with details about what's done to animals in the markets in China, and certain celebrations. Such as the upcoming Dog Meat Festival (I won't supply links, they're out there). And the treatment of humans: the loyalty app (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/07/world/asia/china-xi-jinping-study-the-great-nation-app.html), concentration (aka re-education) camps, One Child Policy, live donor organ harvesting. Severe pollution. It seems to me that the Chinese government treats its people the way the people treat animals. I'm horrified by what I read, but maybe the repeated viral epidemics that originate in China are making a statement about the lack of respect for life and nature in general in the world. I even read today that the Spanish flu originated in China. I have not researched that, I never know what I can believe any more. https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2020/02/18/why_do_new_disease_outbreaks_always_seem_to_start_in_china.html  Maybe the world will put pressure on China and all countries, to be more in tune with and respectful of nature. Money talks (unfortunately).

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
2. To what extent do you agree or disagree with guidelines such as social distancing, many businesses closed, wearing masks in grocery stores, etc.?

There's the F1 me that sees a new virus that has infected the world, and I'm trying to sort out what's true, what's not, what has been hyped. The latest test results with a massive amount of positive antibody tests makes me really wonder if this has been inflated. But then I look at places like Italy and Spain. Social distancing is not a big deal for me, easy enough, but businesses and people really do need to get back to work. Everyone is being fiscally affected. I'd really like to think I can retire some day, but the retirement account is shrinking and my financial adviser keeps taking years off the amount of time I can afford to live. I grew up poor, and could do poor again if I had to. But life is good, and I've worked hard to get to where I am. There are a lot of businesses across the board that are suffering, some that will go out of business. What a shame.

One of the unexpected things for me has been the benefits from the shutdowns. I'm actually enjoying the peacefulness. Then there are people like my son: he cooks at an upscale trendy restaurant in a snooty part of Denver. He was furloughed for a while and then called back to work because the restaurant has made some record sales in the past few weeks (pick up & delivery only), and he's the super-producer in the kitchen. He's also been driving for GrubHub on his off days, so he's probably making double what he normally would. He's not alone. Other businesses, such as grocery stores and of course Amazon, are making a lot of money right now.

There are some states weaning off the restrictions soon, Colorado being one of them. As an inhabitant of F1, I think caution is not a bad thing, but let's see how things go for the states that are loosening up controls. I don't think we can shut down everything for 18 months, that's not realistic. I can't live in fear, don't fear death, and am willing to do whatever it takes to get us through this.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

" I'd rather see that, than people defying the restriction and then us getting a more severe lockdown. I really need the freedom of taking a daily hike." 

Same here. I don't want to give them the excuse for more drastic lockdowns. I would go stark raving mad if I had to stay indoors permanently. I hope report your neighbor doesn't become popular here. Every time I'm out, it looks like everyone is behaving basically.

I got an ebike last year. Right before winter and didn't get a chance to ride much. It's a blast to ride around on though!
That's what I usually do when I go out. Easy to social distance that way too :)

Town population is 31,000. We have 62 confirmed in the county, which would likely be an amalgamation of a few towns.
I dislike wearing the scarf/mask too. If everyone else is and it puts others at ease, I can for awhile.

That's good that your prepared though!!!  I wanted to start doing that anyways. I think it's a good mind set and practice. I saw what was happening in China and thought it might be coming here and put some supplies aside. Very glad I did now!

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
Sena (and anybody who has not already answered these two questions):

1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

2. To what extent do you agree or disagree with guidelines such as social distancing, many businesses closed, wearing masks in grocery stores, etc.?

Larry, thanks for the questions.

1. I don't know the purpose of this mass event, I can only speculate.

2. I agree with social distancing and businesses being closed, to prevent hospitals becoming overwhelmed with cases. If, however, the lockdown goes on for too long, the risk is of a situation like the great depression of the 1930's. If that happens, the "cure" will be worse than the disease and cause more suffering to more people. The danger is that mass hysteria could force governments to continue the loackdown for 18 months or longer. I admire the people taking part in demonstrations against the lockdown in parts of the USA.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15309#msg15309)
Last week a retired police officer was handcuffed and arrested in front of his 8 year old daughter, because they were playing catch in a park. Not in my town, but up north in Broomfield. People are "ratting" on others and it's encouraged. Drones being employed.
https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2020/02/18/why_do_new_disease_outbreaks_always_seem_to_start_in_china.html

Deb, I hope that sort of thing does not become widespread. The police seem to be quite relaxed in London, England, where I now live. I heard that in Sri Lanka more than 3000 people have been locked up without trial for violating the curfew.
Thanks for the interesting webpage about China.

"People are dying from other causes through lack of treatment. This was always going to happen and it will be a tidal wave the longer this goes on - with the deaths being recorded as 'Covid-19' in the death certificate scam."

https://www.davidicke.com/article/568781/ukcolumn-people-dying-causes-lack-treatment-always-going-happen-will-tidal-wave-longer-goes-deaths-recorded-covid-1

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
Sena (and anybody who has not already answered these two questions):

1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

2. To what extent do you agree or disagree with guidelines such as social distancing, many businesses closed, wearing masks in grocery stores, etc.?

Hi LarryH, Hi All,

Hey LarryH, I think this is an excellent post. Thanks for doing this.  :)

I'll respond to your second question in a separate post. However, for your first question, I thought that I'd try tuning-in to my inner self and see what kind of insights I pick up on this. In NOME, Seth tells us that all of our inner selves, all working together, all create all mass events.  He also tells us in NOPR that our conscious minds are intended to both look outside (physical reality) and inside (inner self). This inner self information is available to us and we can pick up on it, as long as we don't hold any beliefs that block us from its access. Thus, my thinking here is this. It should be possible to pick up intuitive insights from my inner self on why we created this mass event.


LarryH, I know you have a process that you use for picking up various insights. As I recall, I believe that it is somewhat based upon the techniques of remote viewing. Have you tried doing this yourself to see what you get on this? I'd be curious as to what you pick up on this.

For LarryH and all the rest of you. I purposely put my insights into a spoiler, so that you could read them when you want.

If you want to try picking up any insights, on your own, you may want to consider not looking at my spoiler until after you tune-in on yourself, see what you get and then post them here in a spoiler too.

Here are the insights that I picked up on this coronavirus mass event. I'm not claiming that these are all true or right.






Again, I don't know whether any of this is right or not, but this is what I sensed, when I tuned-in on this issue.


- jbseth

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

Thanks to all for your responses. jbseth, you put a lot of thought into your response with a focus on China. My focus is more on the U.S. and individual purposes. For the U.S., as I have stated elsewhere, I think the pandemic has exposed various social and political weaknesses and will reduce political resistance to expanded access to healthcare that is not dependent on employment as well as minimum wage being raised to closer to a living wage. Deficits have been highlighted among minorities and in Indian reservations. The work-from-home movement may continue to a greater extent after the pandemic is over. The environmental benefits that we have seen may reduce political resistance to legislation intended to improve the environment. On an individual level, people may continue with the many positives such as more people taking walks, more people getting to know their neighbors, more time to meditate, reflect, and appreciate.  Some will use the pandemic as the way to die, others will use it as a way to serve, a way to learn, a way to love.

There's a better place to put this, but since we're all getting notifications from this post, I'll add it here and later put it up in What's New.

There's a new Facebook-like website that was put together by the former web developer for Seth Network International. It's works the way Facebook does by having a feed and friending other members, but it's ONLY about Seth. I imagine no advertising and no shadow banning or interference from the FB thought police.   https://sethdirectory.com/ Anyone can join, leave comments on the Wall and be able to skip a lot of reading and writing that goes on in a discussion forum like Speaking of Seth.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15321#msg15321)
For LarryH and all the rest of you. I purposely put my insights into a spoiler, so that you could read them when you want.

OK, here goes!

Hopefully there will be world-wide changes, yet every country will have their own lessons to learn from this. Like how Seth says every person who "participates" in a mass event still has their own reasons/purposes served.

Deb, an item in your spoiler triggered an additional thought on a related purpose of the virus: Since meat processing plants around the country seem to be petri dishes for spreading the virus and get shut down, we are likely to have meat shortages for awhile. This might cause people to consider vegan or vegetarian alternatives that they never considered before. They may be surprised to discover tasty alternatives and may reduce their consumption of meat long-term.

I had thought about adding what's going on with food right now, but felt I'd gotten negative enough about animals, but now that you mention it... Do you mean the US hog farm (Smithfield) that closed down one of their facilities because their employees were sick—they are are owned by China. They'd had a visit from some Chinese executives and bam, half the employees are sick before you know it.

I hadn't heard this about beef or hogs, but farmers are being asked to dump milk, destroy eggs and kill their chickens because restaurants, hotels, schools being shut down means food surpluses. Farmers are having to destroy millions of pounds of perishable produce too. Why they can't instead find a way to send this food to the needy is unbelievable.

This may cause some food shortages once we're back in business again, sort of a lag effect.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15328#msg15328)
This might cause people to consider vegan or vegetarian alternatives that they never considered before. They may be surprised to discover tasty alternatives and may reduce their consumption of meat long-term.

Although it's kind of ironic that so many foodborne illnesses have come from fruits and vegetables such as lettuce, sprouts, melons, spinach and cabbage. Life comes with its risks. I try to buy local as much as I can.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15307#msg15307)
Sena (and anybody who has not already answered these two questions):

1. From a Sethian perspective, what is/are the purpose(s) of this mass event?

2. To what extent do you agree or disagree with guidelines such as social distancing, many businesses closed, wearing masks in grocery stores, etc.?

Hi LarryH,

In answer to question 2, I believe in what Seth tells us regarding the power of "belief" and the issues having to do with the various beliefs that we hold.  I also believe in what Seth says in NOPR, Ch5, S624. What he has to say in this specific session, tends to influence my beliefs regarding health and other things like how we actually "catch" a cold, the flu, or some other virus, and how we transmit them.


I don't believe in CV19. That is, I don't believe that I'll get CV19.

Why? Because I "believe" that I'm healthy and I "believe" that if I don't either dwell on or worry about getting CV19, then I won't draw it to me through my beliefs.  Furthermore, I also "believe" that my body consciousness has the ability to correct and heal any imbalances within me.  Finally, as part of this process I have to make sure that I don't consciously interfere with my body consciousness and its abilities to take care of me, via any personal beliefs that I may have that could interfere with this process.

I believe that if I do this, and I do "believe" that I both can and will, then I'll be OK and won't get CV19.






However, that being said, I also recognize that many other people in our society do have a strong belief in the medical establishment, doctors, vaccines, the need to scrub your hands for 20 seconds, the need for masks, social distancing, etc.

In recognition of these people and their beliefs, to not participate in such activities as social distancing, the wearing of masks, etc., is not only very thoughtless and uncompassionate, but its also incredibly dangerous and risky behavior.

Thus, in our neighborhood, when my wife and I are out walking around, and when we talk to our neighbors, we practice social distancing. I also wear a mask, when I go to the grocery store for the same reason. Even though I truly don't believe that this needs to be done.

So yes, I'm OK with the guidelines.

- jbseth

Seth readers beware, they are going to try to force the Covid 19 vaccine on us:

"Gates-owned WHO warns there's no evidence of coronavirus immunity (of course because they want to use that as an excuse to vaccinate EVERYONE with the Gates vaccine)."
"'There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 are protected from a second infection, the World Health Organization warned Saturday as the worldwide death toll topped 200,000."

https://www.davidicke.com/article/568939/gates-owned-warns-theres-no-evidence-coronavirus-immunity-course-want-use-excuse-vaccinate-everyone-gates-vaccine

"It (WHO) also advised against the use of so-called "immunity passports," which have been mooted in some countries as a way to enable people to travel or return to work on the assumption that they are immune to the virus."

https://tinyurl.com/y7fj42lp

Gates does not "own" WHO. And it's not just Gates saying that they don't know if those who have recovered are protected from a second infection. It occurs to me that if they are not protected, then a vaccine based on the antibodies would not work. There may have been cases of reinfection (though this may have been due to false positives and/or false negatives in the infected/not infected/infected testing). Finally, Gates is not the only one funding vaccine research, so it is unlikely to be a Gates vaccine anyway. And if it is a Gates vaccine, is there any evidence that he would make money off of it (like he needs it), or is his foundation just funding the research? I'm not arguing on behalf of a potential vaccine, just questioning some of the allegations and assumptions.

Another positive thing that will happen is that many businesses will spread their employees out more. I spent most of my career working in cubicles. Over time, the square footage of my spaces got smaller, and the walls got lower. Each step made it harder for me to do my job. Before I retired, the company I worked for was moving in the direction of shared desks and eliminating cubicle walls. I would have hated that. But now, there is a reason to move back in the other direction. Floor space will become available if employees are allowed the option of working at home. Staggered work weeks, job sharing, and continued use of virtual meetings would also contribute to this potential. In businesses such as meat processing plants, where workers are in very close proximity, they may have to slow down the process and add shifts to allow safer spacing or install shields between workers.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15405#msg15405)
Gates does not "own" WHO.

Gates has donated $ 1,535.1million to W.H.O.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_%26_Melinda_Gates_Foundation

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15409#msg15409)
Gates has donated $ 1,535.1million to W.H.O.

That does not equate to "owning" WHO. It was a donation. Others have donated to WHO, and they also do not "own" WHO. I think a foundation donating to the World Health Organization during a worldwide pandemic is a good thing.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15405#msg15405)
And it's not just Gates saying that they don't know if those who have recovered are protected from a second infection. It occurs to me that if they are not protected, then a vaccine based on the antibodies would not work. There may have been cases of reinfection (though this may have been due to false positives and/or false negatives in the infected/not infected/infected testing).

Yes, good point. Also, we have flu vaccines tailor-made every year but the flu mutates and so the vaccine is probably outdated by the time it's available to the public. I'm not sure if this virus also mutates, I don't see why it wouldn't. They've been saying there's a Euro version and Chinese version, I need to look into that. Also if it comes to mandatory vaccines, if someone already has the antibodies hopefully they will not be forced to vaccinate.

I'd really like to know what's going on with vaccines.

This morning I was reading a Weston Price newsletter (Winter 2019) and came across a cameo article on the measles outbreak in New York City last April. I barely even remember this, but Mayor de Blasio declared a state of emergency and ordered every unvaccinated person six months or older in areas in Brooklyn to obtain a measles vaccine within 48 hours or face a possible $1000 fine.

Of the 1200 cases of measles reported in 31 US states in 2019, about 75% were in NY state. No deaths reported.

It then contrasts that with: Since 1990 VAERS has received reports of more than 89,000 MMR vaccine reactions including 445 MMR-related deaths. In Merck's pre-licensure (!) studies, 40% of vaccine recipients suffered GI and 55% respiratory illnesses within 42 days. The package insert lists 60+ adverse reactions including permanent brain damage! https://www.fda.gov/media/75191/download See pages 6-8. One of the reactions is diabetes mellitus, so I guess my feeling that my son's diabetes could have been caused by a vaccine was not off base. I wish I'd seen this back in 1995.

Another article starts off:

"Industry-funded politicians and others who benefit from vaccine sales worked hard in 2019 to stifle opposing viewpoints and bury scientific studies that contradict official narrative that all vaccines are "safe and effective" for everyone. Social media platforms, search engines and stores readily removed vaccine-related content running counter to this official narrative."

Adam Schiff wrote to Bezos requesting removal of all anti-vaccine content, such as documentaries, from Amazon. Bezos complied. Letters also went to the CEOs of Facebook and Google, Etsy, GoFundMe, Instagram, Mailchimp, Twitter, YouTube, Pinterest and Wikipedia. All complied.

How did we get here? What's going on? If someone does come up with a corona vaccine, are we going to have access to the package insert?

Things sure have changed since my childhood, when some kid had measles and the neighborhood would have a measles party so their kids could get it over with.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15407#msg15407)
Another positive thing that will happen is that many businesses will spread their employees out more.

What will help with that is many businesses (and the employees) will realize that they it is possible to work from home. At least the self-motivated folk.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15360#msg15360)
I also wear a mask, when I go to the grocery store for the same reason.

I just started doing that. Very uncomfortable, but I spend less time in the store because of it, which is not a bad thing.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15412#msg15412)
"Industry-funded politicians and others who benefit from vaccine sales worked hard in 2019 to stifle opposing viewpoints and bury scientific studies that contradict official narrative that all vaccines are "safe and effective" for everyone. Social media platforms, search engines and stores readily removed vaccine-related content running counter to this official narrative."

Deb, I tried searching for "natural immunity or vaccines", and got a flood of pro-vaccine articles. Google is not going to contradict the medical/pharmaceutical establishment.
If WHO is so sure that getting one attack of Covid 19 does not give immunity, how will the vaccine manufactures prove that their vaccine gives more immunity than an attack of the illness? It could take 3 years for a vaccine to be proved to be that effective. New Zealand now claims to be free of Covid 19, without a vaccine.

Hi All,

Hi Sena,

" Google is not going to contradict the medical/pharmaceutical establishment."
Or any other officially established narrative. Google is simply useless for any unbiased research endeavor. Duck duck Go isn't much better.

My own point of view, vaccine manufacturers make a bundle from their products. If they get away with making any of their products mandatory, the sky is the limit on profit. Not to mention that due to the highly questionable ingredients in the vaccines, they cause life long illnesses in people, which is a never ending profit model for the medical communities and big pharmacy.

In the U.S. the manufacturers lobbied congress and have gotten laws passed that makes them exempt from responsibility and lawsuits against injuries and illnesses from their products.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-vaccine-ruling-parents-cant-sue-drug-makers-for-kids-health-problems/

42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22.Standards of responsibility
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/300aa-22

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15415#msg15415)
New Zealand now claims to be free of Covid 19, without a vaccine.

As of today, New Zealand has 325 active cases, 1,118 recovered cases, and 18 deaths. They appear to have slowed the new cases to a trickle, a few a day. Clearly, considering how remote the country is, its low population, and its enlightened leadership, it was able to arrest the spread very successfully. New Zealand had one of the highest per capita testing rates in the world.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15416#msg15416)
In the U.S. the manufacturers lobbied congress and have gotten laws passed that makes them exempt from responsibility and lawsuits against injuries and illnesses from their products.

That's disgusting. Just the fact that we have a law like that says a lot. I thought the choice of language "presumed" was odd. Presumed? No one is checking that?

"a vaccine shall be presumed to be accompanied by proper directions and warnings if the vaccine manufacturer shows that it complied in all material respects with all requirements"

I did a little looking back today to my son's vaccinations as a child. I remember him having a strong reaction to his first set, fever, rash, a lot of crying from feeling miserable. In order for kids to go to school, their vaccines have to be up to date. I had to get his MMR booster before he started kindergarten in August of 2000, age 5. He was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes on May 8, 2001. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

Just an idea of how many vaccines kids get by the age of 18:

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html#birth-15

Hi All,

In DEaVF1, Chapter 3, Session 891 was given on December 26, 1979. Just a few days before the world embarked upon a brand new decade, the 1980's. In this session, Seth talks about probabilities, mass probabilities and "Great Expectations".

I think that the message that Seth gave in this session, very much applies to us today as we sit here and discuss this coronavirus in April 2020.


In this session, in talking about great expectations, Set say the following: "The elements of the physical world that are unfortunate can be changed in the twinkling of an eye through great expectations."

Along with this, he also talks about power. Here he tells us, "The true power is in the imagination which dares to speculate upon that which is not yet (intently). The imagination, backed by great expectations, can bring about almost any reality within the range of probabilities. All of the possible versions of 1980 will happen."

Then, along with this, he also says:
"Do not personally give any more conscious consideration, either of you, to events that you do not want to happen. (Long pause.) Any such concentration, to whatever degree, ties you in with those probabilities, so concentrate upon what you want, and as far as public events are concerned, take it for granted that sometimes even men are wiser than they know".


- jbseth

https://www.businessinsider.com/new-zealand-coronavirus-community-spread-ended-most-restrictions-stay-2020-4

I was curious about New Zealand with the conflicting information, and there are several articles out there basically saying that New Zealand is easing its lockdown saying it "eliminated community transmission of the coronavirus." Total number of active cases has been in decline since April 9. 309 active right now.

"This brings the country's cumulative total to 1,122 confirmed cases, but Bloomfield added that "probable" cases — where testing has not yet confirmed a likely infection — would bring that total to 1,469. Nineteen people have died of the virus in New Zealand so far."

I sincerely wish them luck, the world is watching.

On the same page I saw this: "The world's largest vaccine maker is mass-producing a COVID-19 vaccine developed by the University of Oxford without knowing whether it works."  They're already testing it on volunteers. https://www.businessinsider.com/india-serum-institute-millions-oxford-university-vaccine-before-approval-2020-4?r=US&IR=T

I wish them luck too.  :o

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15416#msg15416)
My own point of view, vaccine manufacturers make a bundle from their products. If they get away with making any of their products mandatory, the sky is the limit on profit. Not to mention that due to the highly questionable ingredients in the vaccines, they cause life long illnesses in people, which is a never ending profit model for the medical communities and big pharmacy.

T.M., I can imagine a situation like this: In 3 years billions of people have been given the vaccine. In 4 years there is a considerably increased incidence of cancer. Conclusion - Cancer is due to an old infection with Covid 19 (before getting the vaccine). They are already saying Covid 19 is causing young people to have strokes. Why can't it cause cancer?

We are not going to stop people from working on a vaccine. How about we visualize that the vaccine will have minimal side effects and maybe at least reduce the symptoms if one gets the virus? I'm not promoting a vaccine, as that is up to each person to decide when the time comes. We get what we concentrate upon. I heard that somewhere.  :)

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15422#msg15422)
How about we visualize that the vaccine will have minimal side effects and maybe at least reduce the symptoms if one gets the virus?

I'm visualizing we won't need one. :)

So far I have not ordered anthing from Amazon since the lockdown started, but may soon have to do so. Good old Bezos. "Jeff Bezos's Net Worth Has Increased by $24 Billion During the alleged 'Covid-19 Pandemic'":

https://www.davidicke.com/article/569229/jeff-bezoss-net-worth-increased-24-billion-covid-19-pandemic

Elsewhere here in an unrelated thread, Sena stated, "...lockdowns are useless. A lockdown may postpone death by a few months, but the death decision will eventually prevail." I understand that this is coming from Sena's understanding of the Seth material, and I would not argue that the statement is not "Sethian". However, I struggle with this idea.

First, regarding these social guidelines intended to reduce the spread of the virus, I think it is still useful to follow them so that, for starters:

-We minimize trauma to the overworked healthcare workers
-We lose loved ones later rather than sooner (and maybe get to say goodbye in person)
-We control the spread so that we can more quickly open up the economy

Second, it implies that we have no personal responsibility in the safety of others, and various safety precautions common in society are useless. Following is a list of such precautions:

-child-proof caps on poisons and medicine bottles
-baby gates
-fences around swimming pools
-seat belts in cars

If I were to allow a young child to be in a swimming pool unsupervised and that child drowns, I would not say, "Oh well, not my fault, he 'chose' to die." Obviously, from a Sethian viewpoint, that would seem to be true. But I would still feel guilty. So if anybody would like to help me out with this Seth concept, please chime in.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15467#msg15467)
If I were to allow a young child to be in a swimming pool unsupervised and that child drowns, I would not say, "Oh well, not my fault, he 'chose' to die." Obviously, from a Sethian viewpoint, that would seem to be true. But I would still feel guilty. So if anybody would like to help me out with this Seth concept, please chime in.

Larry, your argument about the young child is "argument from analogy":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_analogy

Seth never said that we should neglect our children.

What we are talking about here is an important Seth teaching, that each individual chooses the moment of his death. Probably 95% of the human race would disagree with that statement. If they are told that they need to take 10 vaccines to protect against Covid 19, they would happily accept the 10 vaccines.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15467#msg15467)

First, regarding these social guidelines intended to reduce the spread of the virus, I think it is still useful to follow them so that, for starters:

-We minimize trauma to the overworked healthcare workers
-We lose loved ones later rather than sooner (and maybe get to say goodbye in person)
-We control the spread so that we can more quickly open up the economy

Larry, I agree that I should have been more precise. I agree that a limited lockdown is useful to "minimize trauma to the overworked healthcare workers". I would not expect any lockdown to reduce the total number of deaths due to Covid 19; it will only spread the deaths over a longer period.
With regard to "We lose loved ones later rather than sooner (and maybe get to say goodbye in person)", it is a silly rule which dictates that loved ones are prevented from visiting dying patients.
"We control the spread so that we can more quickly open up the economy". You will see what an 18 month lockdown will do to the economy. People will be under so much stress that there will be a massive increase in deaths from heart attack and stroke. Of course people who die in that way would have chosen to do so.
To summarize, I would agree with a very limited lockdown until the health services can be enabled to cope.

The "thug" scientists are advocating an 18-month lockdown:

"The U.K. government ramped up its response to COVID-19 Monday, asking citizens to cut all unnecessary contact with other people, after a British research team warned its earlier strategy would lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths. But those researchers also gave a troubling warning for countries around the world implementing lockdown measures: in order to be effective, they would need to last 12 to 18 months."

https://time.com/5804555/coronavirus-lockdown-uk/

This thug economist is saying something similar:

"Neel Kashkari, the head of the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis, said the US should prepare of an 18-month shutdown to deal with the coronavirus outbreak that is wreaking havoc across the globe.


"This could be a long, hard road that we have ahead of us until we get to either an effective therapy or a vaccine. It's hard for me to see a V-shaped recovery under that scenario," said the Indian origin Kashkari in an interview with CBS.


He said that the US should be looking at an 18-month strategy for the economy and health care system based on how other countries have responded to the pandemic."

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/world/us-should-prepare-for-an-18-month-lockdown-says-neel-kashkari-5137301.html

More interesting information about Covid 19:

"But there is one big question that didn't even make it onto Warzel's list that has only gotten more mysterious in the weeks since: How is COVID-19 actually killing us?.

"You probably have a sense of the range of common symptoms, and a sense that the range isn't that weird: fever, dry cough, and shortness of breath have been, since the beginning of the outbreak, the familiar, oft-repeated group of tell-tale signs. But while the CDC does list fever as the top symptom of COVID-19, so confidently that for weeks patients were turned away from testing sites if they didn't have an elevated temperature, according to the Journal of the American Medical Association, as many as 70 percent of patients sick enough to be admitted to New York State's largest hospital system did not have a fever.

"The most bedeviling confusion has arisen around the relationship of the disease to breathing, lung function, and oxygenation levels in the blood — typically, for a respiratory illness, a quite predictable relationship. But for weeks now, front-line doctors have been expressing confusion that so many coronavirus patients were registering lethally low blood-oxygenation levels while still appearing, by almost any vernacular measure, pretty okay. It's one reason they've begun rethinking the initial clinical focus on ventilators, which are generally recommended when patients oxygenation falls below a certain level, but seemed, after a few weeks, of unclear benefit to COVID-19 patients, who may have done better, doctors began to suggest, on lesser or different forms of oxygen support. For a while, ventilators were seen so much as the essential tool in treating life-threatening coronavirus that shortages (and the president's unwillingness to invoke the Defense Production Act to manufacture them quickly) became a scandal. But by one measure 88 percent of New York patients put on ventilators, for whom an outcome was known, had died. In China, the figure was 86 percent."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/04/we-still-dont-know-how-the-coronavirus-is-killing-us.html

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15467#msg15467)
If I were to allow a young child to be in a swimming pool unsupervised and that child drowns, I would not say, "Oh well, not my fault, he 'chose' to die." Obviously, from a Sethian viewpoint, that would seem to be true. But I would still feel guilty. So if anybody would like to help me out with this Seth concept, please chime in.

@LarryH, take on this:

Seth said over and over that murder, and even just the intent to cause injury or death to another, is wrong, period. And while Seth did say that we choose our "death" and that killer and victim would have staged the "drama" on another level, and as well, the drama was to serve a purpose for both. He also said at least a couple of times that if we can help others, we better well do it.

In my mind, there is a fine line between murder and negligence/neglect of a child or anyone else that that is not fully independent or competent. And while there will still be that underlying cooperation between both parties in a case like that, anyone that would think "oh well, not my fault" would have to be a psychopath. Seth reader or not, any mentally stable person would feel horrible and the ideas of the cooperative element or choice of death would offer no consolation. Because we are humans.

Sena, the suggestion of an 18-month lockdown is an extreme viewpoint that few would buy into. Most would agree that a managed reopening based on adequate hospital supplies and testing is the prudent thing to do. Our positions may not be much different.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15469#msg15469)
Larry, your argument about the young child is "argument from analogy"

In deference to your dismissal of a similar circumstance, I will make the argument less analogous: Given your admitted observation that the symptoms of this illness among carriers can vary significantly or even be absent, if you were to go to an event where you did not practice social distancing and later found that you were a carrier at that time and several others at that event now had the illness, would you feel a twinge of guilt, or would you say, "Oh, well, not my fault. They 'chose' to get the illness." That circumstance is exactly the main reason for the guidelines, because people often don't know that they are carriers. This is in reference to your original "lockdowns are useless" statement, though you have softened your position since.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15472#msg15472)
Because we are humans.

Thanks, Deb. That is as close to an explanation as anything in my limited viewpoint in trying to correlate Seth's concepts to our human experience. Don't cause the death or suffering of another, but if you do, it's because of some "drama" on another level, serving unknown purposes of both. It's still a maddening dilemma.

Hi All,

Assuming the info coming from mainstream media sources and government is correct, then following their guidelines would be the seemingly correct thing to do.
I have severe reservations about the accuracy and overall integrity of those sources. I'm not the only one.

I also think independent researchers and regular people have put a significant dent in the official narrative about the severity and numbers of this pandemic. In the end I guess it's a matter of who you believe.
Neither side at this point can be proven either right or wrong, from an outside singular perspective.

I had to get an x-Ray at the local hospital imagery center yesterday. They have a nice big waiting room. Which they closed to half of its size and packed everyone up in the remaining space. Goodbye 6ft social distancing! Which would have been easily maintainable and is some what the norm anyways, had the waiting room been left in its original configuration.
Why aren't they following the guidelines?? If this is so real?

Wearing a mask for long periods of time is dangerous, as many working in public is now being forced to do.
Your breathing in your own carbon dioxide.
Carbon dioxide is a physiologically important gas, produced by the body as a result of cellular metabolism. It is widely used in the food industry in the carbonation of beverages, in fire extinguishers as an 'inerting' agent and in the chemical industry. Its main mode of action is as an asphyxiant, although it also exerts toxic effects at cellular level. At low concentrations, gaseous carbon dioxide appears to have little toxicological effect. At higher concentrations it leads to an increased respiratory rate, tachycardia, cardiac arrhythmias and impaired consciousness. Concentrations >10% may cause convulsions, coma and death
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16499405

I was talking with my regular physician less than 2 weeks ago about all this. I asked him a herd immunity. He said that's what's going to have to happen to finally end this. Though he also advocated for that happening as slowly as possible.

While we're playing games of guilt, if this is proven to be an over blown social engineering experiment, how many advocating for all the shutdown/social distancing/mask wearing guidelines, are going to feel twinges of guilt over the lives ruined, financially, physically, mentally ; from advocating people follow the official narrative course of action?
If another's death results from that course of action, is it somehow more excusable, acceptable?

Or in the end are we all just humans doing the best we can, with whatever info we have in hand?

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15475#msg15475)
While we're playing games of guilt, if this is proven to be an over blown social engineering experiment, how many advocating for all the shutdown/social distancing/mask wearing guidelines, are going to feel twinges of guilt over the lives ruined, financially, physically, mentally ; from advocating people follow the official narrative course of action?

T.M., thanks for your interesting post. I actually don't think this is a planned social engineering experiment, although I am sure there are a number of powerful people who are trying to get financial and other advantages from the situation. The problem is that the vast majority of people are terrified of death, and this includes people in government, doctors, and other scientists. This fear of death is making them act irrationally, and this is making a bad situation much worse. Seth and other teachers like him can help us overcome the fear of death, but it is only a minority who are willing to listen to these teachers.

Hi All,

Overwhelmed health care workers??!!

This vid is from multiple locations. There's plenty out there like this.

Tik Tok Dancing Nurses? What Is This Garbage? Empty Hospitals?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhUAJRYA3bk

Hi All,

Hi Sena,

You might find this podcast/vid interesting. I know I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiHZwDqmZK8

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15475#msg15475)
I had to get an x-Ray at the local hospital imagery center yesterday. They have a nice big waiting room. Which they closed to half of its size and packed everyone up in the remaining space.

I've been seeing a lot of illogical and inconsistent things being done with the restrictions. They're making things up as they go along. The CDC actually has a pandemic strategy that was put together in 2005/06. I wonder if any of that was followed? I don't want to take the time to read the documents, maybe no one else does either. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/planning-preparedness/national-strategy-planning.html

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15471#msg15471)
as many as 70 percent of patients sick enough to be admitted to New York State's largest hospital system did not have a fever.

Wow, so public vetting based solely on temperature has been pointless.

Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. More details, things I haven't seen in other news. Early on I'd read that the biggest problem was the immune system's overreaction to the virus—the immune system itself was causing tissue damage in the lungs.

So apparently they have been treating the lungs the same way they've treated regular pneumonia, and that needs to change.

Up until this article, I'd only heard about the lungs being the problem, but it's sounding more like a blood clotting issue considering the strokes and the micro clots found in the lungs.

"As Oxley, an interventional neurologist, began the procedure to remove the clot, he observed something he had never seen before. On the monitors, the brain typically shows up as a tangle of black squiggles — "like a can of spaghetti," he said — that provide a map of blood vessels. A clot shows up as a blank spot. As he used a needlelike device to pull out the clot, he saw new clots forming in real-time around it."

On our F1 level, we still have a lot to learn about this virus. But they are making progress.

From Lynda Dahl on Facebook today, I thought this ties in with the talk of medicines and vaccines for the 'rona.  Actually, there's a lot more than that, see my bolded text. Underlines are Seth's.

Lynda: Hi Seth friends, the universe works in mysterious ways, it seems. Who would have thought artificial drugs and chemicals may not only lead us into a bright future, but involve spiritual issues as well?

"(Very intently:) You cannot do anything, literally, that is NOT natural. Nevertheless, over a period of time 'artificial' chemicals taken with food into the body will form a new kind of nature, in your terms. Your bodies are beautifully equipped, and will turn almost anything to their advantage.

"According to many schools of thought, artificial drugs, so-called, or chemicals, are considered in a very negative light, cutting you off from nature. Yet such experiments represent a strong line of probability only in its 'infancy,' in which man could sustain himself without draining the earth, live without killing animals, and literally form a new kind of physical structure connected to the earth, while not depleting its substance.

"This does not mean that some biological confusion might not result in the meantime. It does mean that even in those terms, and consciously unknowing, mankind is experimenting with a probable species and working out quite spiritual issues."

The "Unknown" Reality, Vol. 1, Session 687

I've been thinking about how some people want to frame this virus in ways that minimize its effect as a way to justify a premature reopening of the economy. Early claims were that it was "just a flu". With the world's statistics as of today indicating that over 7% of confirmed cases end in death, that would be 70 times the mortality rate of the flu. Claims that far more people than previously thought have the virus but are asymptomatic have come into question. Applying the claimed statistics to NYC, you would have to have a population greater than the city carrying the virus to result in the deaths there. The claims from California were based on Facebook volunteers taking the test, which makes the study non-random and likely selects from those who for some reason thought they might be a carrier, whether they had minor symptoms or knew that they had been exposed.

Another way of framing the virus to minimize its effect is to focus on just the deaths and ignore the suffering that accompanies those deaths and the suffering among those who have recovered from "the sickest (they) have ever been". Spending 7 weeks cycling through torturous symptoms while wondering if you were going to die or pass a deadly illness on to your family is not the typical flu bug. Claims that many of the counted deaths are from other causes must be balanced with the fact that many of the early deaths from the virus were not counted. Weeks before the official statistics in NYC began to show covid-19 deaths, there was a dramatic rise in the death rate among New Yorkers.

The sense of loss and worry among those related in some way to those who have the virus and the suffering among the medical practitioners is also discounted. States are opening up before federal guidelines have been met, before adequate testing is available, before tracing techniques have been put into place, even as the death rate per day hits records in some of those states. Yes, Seth says that nobody dies who has not chosen to die. But this is about more than the mortality rate.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15527#msg15527)
I've been thinking about how some people want to frame this virus in ways that minimize its effect as a way to justify a premature reopening of the economy.

Larry, I wonder whether you would be interested in the alternative view of John P.A. Ioannidis,  Professor of Medicine, of Epidemiology and Population Health, and (by courtesy) of Biomedical Data Science, and of Statistics; co-Director, Meta-Research Innovation Center at Stanford:

https://profiles.stanford.edu/john-ioannidis

This is from his article written on March 17th:

"The data collected so far on how many people are infected and how the epidemic is evolving are utterly unreliable. Given the limited testing to date, some deaths and probably the vast majority of infections due to SARS-CoV-2 are being missed. We don't know if we are failing to capture infections by a factor of three or 300. Three months after the outbreak emerged, most countries, including the U.S., lack the ability to test a large number of people and no countries have reliable data on the prevalence of the virus in a representative random sample of the general population.

This evidence fiasco creates tremendous uncertainty about the risk of dying from Covid-19. Reported case fatality rates, like the official 3.4% rate from the World Health Organization, cause horror — and are meaningless. Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

Projecting the Diamond Princess mortality rate onto the age structure of the U.S. population, the death rate among people infected with Covid-19 would be 0.125%."

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/17/a-fiasco-in-the-making-as-the-coronavirus-pandemic-takes-hold-we-are-making-decisions-without-reliable-data/

The following is from the medical website, Medscape, published on May 4th:

"Since mid-March, Ioannidis has been arguing that the fatality rate of Covid-19 may be much lower than initially feared — and that, as a result, current public health restrictions could be overly strict. Last week, a Stanford-led study of Covid-19 infection rates in Santa Clara County, California, which lists Ioannidis as an author, seemed to offer some of the most forceful backing for that argument. The paper suggests that the fatality rate for Covid-19 may be 0.2 percent or less — lower than many other estimates, and much closer to the seasonal flu.

The problem, of course, is that many people who get Covid-19 are asymptomatic and never realize they are sick. Others may be unable to get a test, amid widespread testing shortages. As a result, one of the lingering questions of the pandemic has been how many people actually have the disease. If a larger number of people are getting infected but presenting with symptoms so mild or nonexistent that they never feel the need to be tested, then the overall infection fatality rate — that is, the percentage of infected people who die — will be considerably lower.

Such downward adjustments in the death rate of a pandemic are entirely common, as researchers and clinicians get a better grasp on how a contagion behaves. And of course, if the fatality rate for Covid-19 drifts closer to that of the common flu, some people might question whether strict lockdowns are warranted. The question, though, is whether there is enough good information on hand yet to make that case."

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/929920

The following is the UK Sunday Times on May 3rd:

"The science is becoming clear: lockdowns are no longer the right medicine".
This paper is unfortunately subscribers only. The following is from the print edition:
"A better approach (than lockdown) is to utilise testing in a precise way to guide reopening."

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-science-is-becoming-clear-lockdowns-are-no-longer-the-right-medicine-k5c652wk8

Sena, much of my post above was to suggest that this is about more than the mortality rate. But regarding mortality rate, I believe the Santa Clara study is the one where the subjects were volunteers from Facebook, which makes it non-random. And extrapolating those results to NYC would require more than the population of NYC having the virus in NYC. So I utterly dismiss that study. You make the point that we don't know enough, and I agree. But that does not suggest that we should base our policies on the most optimistic assumptions. I agree with the last quote in your post:

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15531#msg15531)
"A better approach (than lockdown) is to utilise testing in a precise way to guide reopening."

And in order to do that, we need testing for both the virus and the antibodies to be widely available as well as contact tracing to be implemented, and they are not. Until they are, we need to be very cautious about reopening.

An alternative view:

"Staying at Home is Highly Questionable. Here's the Proof from New York.

New York Governor Andrew Cuomo is "shocked" that 66% of Covid hospital admissions are from people who had been "sheltering at home." Cuomo, who is not a medic, may be shocked, but plenty of Doctors are not surprised.

Notice that even at the bottom of this graph from CNBC it says "STAY HOME. STOP THE SPREAD. SAVE LIVES." Yet the chart is clear evidence that staying home is not very helpful. According to the conventional wisdom, those who are out and about should be the ones getting infected. And they probably are, but not seriously enough to be hospitalised; and in many cases with no symptoms at all. Doctors are not surprised by this, because they know that staying home is not a healthy thing to do. The immune system weakens because it has few challenges. Lack of exercise leads to lack of fitness; and probably also to weight gain. Lack of sunlight reduces our vitamin D levels. All these things make someone a sitting target for Covid, with a far higher chance of serious problems when they do happen to meet the infection.

Our article comparing Tokyo and New York fatalities  provides a strong indication that lockdown doesn't really work. Our article on Viral Interference  provides another insight into New York fatalities. Also, a New York Times article  points to obesity as a major risk factor; and anyone who has visited the States knows what a big problem obesity is there. We need urgently to get away from the simplistic idea that staying at home keeps us all safe. It's far more complex than that. The evidence that locking down and crashing the economy is a good idea just isn't there. The evidence that it's a very bad idea is building."

https://tinyurl.com/yb5baj44

https://unlockthelockdown.com/epidemiology-for-dummies-what-you-ought-to-know/

Sena, I now get more exercise every day than I did before we were asked to "stay home", partially because I have more time. I do a half-hour of yoga and strength exercises along with at least a 15-minute meditation every day. In most places, where it's easy to maintain social distancing, people are still allowed to go outside. I have always taken daily 45-minute walks, and I continue to do that. What I have noticed is that since the guidelines have been put in place, a lot more people in my neighborhood are walking, biking, and jogging than before. I absolutely agree with you about the need for sun and fresh air. Maybe it's just tougher for New Yorkers to socially distance outdoors. But there should not be any reason they can't exercise. Most of them have more time, so no excuse. But people don't get the virus by staying at home as this source implies, they get it by someone giving it to them. I wonder if in large cities, staying indoors in large apartment complexes may mean exposure to shared ventilation, not to mention the typically smaller square footage of apartments with family members crowded together.

During the Spanish Flu pandemic, they found that the patients who had access to sun and fresh air did better than those who did not.  I think you make some good points, but I disagree with the idea that we should lift the guidelines and allow everyone the complete freedom to spread the disease.

Seems to me that very little makes any sense right now.

I spent the past couple of days up in the mountains at a friend's cabin, in an area where walking and cycling are ok, but fishing and golfing are crimes because... there is no because, no one can explain why some things are acceptable and some are not any more. It seems to be determined by whim.

My son, his girlfriend, others have been working overtime as cooks or food delivery drivers because people cannot live without takeout restaurant food. Yet my dentist and new doctor have rescheduled my appointments several times because basic medical and dental care are considered non-essential. And then, abortion clinics and erectile disfunction facilities have remained open, being considered essential.

Criminals have been released from prisons, including violent sex offenders, to protect them from the virus. But a woman was arrested and put in jail for opening her hair salon too early... her purpose in opening was to feed and support her children, while her employees were also going hungry so their children could be fed. And the NY gov decided it was best to have covid-infected patients placed in nursing homes. So much for protecting the vulnerable.

Local governments even on the lowest level are determining what's essential or not, upon their whims. Such as the Michigan gov who decided that purchasing gardening supplies (plants, seeds, etc.) are illegal and non-essential, while buying lottery tickets is ok.

Farmers of all types are being advised to kill, destroy and throw away crops, dairy and animals while food shortages are taking place and more are predicted. To the point of famine. Makes sense to me. Not.

What is going on? I've NEVER been a conspiracy fan, but the phrase "who controls the food supply controls the people" has come up more than once and I have to wonder.

Seth fan or not, something is not right.

If there is a reliable antibody test out there, and there seems to be, why can't people who test positive for antibodies voluntarily go back to work, while those who are vulnerable wait things out? I realize this pandemic is somewhat unprecedented in our current society, but a lot of what is going on makes little sense to me. There are too many blanket solutions being enforced for a problem that should have a variety of solutions.

Lockdowns vs. herd immunity—I can't say what's correct or not. I, like everyone else, have no experience with what's going on. Being the general public, I can't rely on what I read in the news either because it's one thing one day, different the next, with sensational news articles that come and go with no follow-up. We are left to the mercy and "wisdom" of our governments on whatever level. And our own instincts.

I was fishing the past couple of days in Clear Creek County, CO, where fishing is suddenly illegal. Illegal because... no one knows why. My friend's property has a river running through it. Three of us, socially distanced by at least 20 feet, broke the law on private property in order to breathe in fresh air and soak up the sunshine that not only kills germs, but increased our immune-boosting Vitamin D. And I cooked our meals with supplies surreptitiously bought at a local grocery store, rather than the socially acceptable take-out meals.

I need to get back to work creating a reality that is not this one.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15548#msg15548)
And then, abortion clinics and erectile disfunction facilities have remained open, being considered essential.

Some states have attempted to shut down abortion clinics with the idea that abortions are elective procedures (maybe thrown to the courts to decide). The problem is that if you delay an abortion for very long, it becomes illegal. Those states are not letting a crisis go to waste.

There's such a thing as an erectile dysfunction facility?

Nature parks and beaches in Florida are reopening in phases. They open a beach, see how it goes, then close it down if they see too many people crowded together. Trail parks vary on opening. One problem that I see is that if you open just one of many parks or beaches, everyone wants to go there, and that makes it too crowded. If they were all open, people would naturally be more spread out.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15549#msg15549)
The problem is that if you delay an abortion for very long, it becomes illegal.

Thanks, I didn't realize that. I'm not very familiar with the abortion laws (being past that age), although I can't help but hear about the conflicts in the news at times. I also heard that abortions have been up by 400% during the pandemic, which doesn't surprise me. I've seen a few pregnant women recently and I felt sorry for them, they must be worried about bringing a baby into this world right now. I'd even be afraid to go to a hospital to deliver.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15549#msg15549)
There's such a thing as an erectile dysfunction facility?

I guess I should have written clinic rather than facility. Yes, there are a lot of them, they advertise constantly on the radio, making it clear that they are open during the pandemic, some with details of how their office procedures make a patient safe from corona exposure. There's even one that will treat online. Their name really bothers me, For Hims. Grammar, lol.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15549#msg15549)
They open a beach, see how it goes, then close it down if they see too many people crowded together. Trail parks vary on opening. One problem that I see is that if you open just one of many parks or beaches, everyone wants to go there, and that makes it too crowded. If they were all open, people would naturally be more spread out.

I wonder why people can't do something as simple as keep their distance? At least where I live, there are plenty of places to be outdoors and keep your distance. So far state parks have not been closed and the local parks have picnic tables, gazebos, playground and exercise equipment cordoned off with yellow tape.

Worldwide, the ratio of fatal cases (269,564) to confirmed cases (3,845,607) is 7%. https://bing.com/covid/local/unitedstates?form=msntrk (https://bing.com/covid/local/unitedstates?form=msntrk)

While 7% is far higher than some claim, it is bound to increase. That is because the ratio includes active cases, and many of those will die. Let's say that by some miracle, there are no new cases. So the confirmed cases are frozen. Of that, there are 2,293,113 active cases. Many of them will die, resulting in an increase in the ratio of fatal cases to confirmed cases. Another way of looking at it is to compare the fatal cases to the recovered cases. Everyone who no longer has the virus is either recovered or dead. Recovered cases (1,282,930) + fatal cases = 1,552,494. The ratio of fatal cases to (recovered + fatal) = 17.36%. That is 174 times the claimed flu mortality rate. I doubt that it will end up that high, but I would not be surprised if it ends up being over 10% mortality (based on confirmed cases, not factoring in asymptomatic cases that were not confirmed, which may be as low as 50%, but we just don't know).

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15548#msg15548)
If there is a reliable antibody test out there, and there seems to be, why can't people who test positive for antibodies voluntarily go back to work, while those who are vulnerable wait things out?

Deb, it seems that there is no proven antibody test, but I hope there will be one in the next couple of months:

"There are more than two hundred tests out there now, produced by a wide range of companies and labs, with little control over how they are marketed; only a dozen have even gone through the process of getting what's known as an Emergency Use Authorization, or E.U.A., from the Food and Drug Administration, which is less rigorous than a normal approval. The F.D.A. has told other companies that they can go ahead and peddle their tests based on self-reported measures of accuracy to clinics, doctors' offices, businesses, or state and local governments. Some tests are not just imperfect but shoddy; "terrible" is the word one researcher used in describing certain tests to CNN."

https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/are-we-failing-the-coronavirus-antibody-test

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15551#msg15551)
Worldwide, the ratio of fatal cases (269,564) to confirmed cases (3,845,607) is 7%. https://bing.com/covid/local/unitedstates?form=msntrk

Larry, you have posted the most pessimistic figure, which does not take into account the number of asymptomatic people with the virus.

"Covid-19: Why Germany's case fatality rate seems so low

Germany has the third highest number of coronavirus cases in Europe, but deaths are relatively few when compared with neighbouring countries. Ned Stafford explains why

As the covid-19 pandemic continues to grow in severity, one of the most closely watched statistics has been Germany's number of deaths from the virus, which has been remarkably low in comparison with other nations, especially neighbouring European countries.

As of 2 April official statistics showed that 872 deaths from covid-19 had been recorded in Germany from 73 522 confirmed cases, translating to a fatality rate of 1.2%.1 This compares with fatality rates of 11.9% in Italy, 9% in Spain, 8.6% in the Netherlands, 8% in the UK, and 7.1% in France.2

Christian Drosten, director of the Institute of Virology at the Charité hospital in Berlin, believes that Germany's relatively low covid-19 fatality rate can be attributed partly to the nation's early and high level of testing among a wide sample of the German population. While other countries were conducting a limited number of tests of older patients with severe cases of the virus, Germany was conducting many more tests that included milder cases in younger people.

The more tests are performed, the more likely it is that new cases will be found, and the higher total case numbers are relative to the proportion of cases that lead to death. Thus, the fatality rate decreases as this ratio widens."

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1395

I also have to wonder how accurate the numbers are, for a few different reasons. And of course I never know what in the news can be believed. But here are just a few things I've read:

• Just recently it's been found that some people diagnosed with the regular flu as early as November or December, before we knew about corona, actually had corona. Such as this case in France. There are a few people in the US who are suspected they had it early.  https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-france-patient-zero-december.html

• I'd read an article a week or two ago that the death rate for the regular flu has declined since corona came on board. I wonder how many patients had the regular flu and died from it, but it was reported as a corona death.

• Rumors that hospitals are attributing corona to patients who died from other causes, due to financial incentives by these CARES Act Provisions https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-04-16-coronavirus-update-cms-releases-guidance-implementing-cares-act-provisions

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/04/24/fact-check-medicare-hospitals-paid-more-covid-19-patients-coronavirus/3000638001/

• Don't forget the CDC covid-death reporting guidelines,"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID cannot be made but is suspected or likely (e.g. the circumstances are compelling with a reasonable degree of certainty) it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as 'probable' or 'presumed.'"

• Reporting seems to be subjective, varies by state, and it makes me wonder if we'll ever have accurate numbers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/which-deaths-count-toward-the-covid-19-death-toll-it-depends-on-the-state/2020/04/16/bca84ae0-7991-11ea-a130-df573469f094_story.html

"In Alabama, officials have ruled that one of every 10 people who died with covid-19 did not die of covid-19. Among those excluded from the numbers reported to the federal government were a bedbound patient with aspiration pneumonia in one lung and a person with a buildup of fluid and partial collapse of one lung."

"Since at least last month, Colorado has been reporting the deaths of people who were never tested but who showed symptoms and had close contact with an infected person."

"Ohio, Connecticut and Delaware have since begun reporting deaths of people who were presumed infected but had not been not tested."

• We still don't know how many people had the virus asymptomatically. By the few antibody studies that've been done so far, it seems like a pretty good chunk of the population already had been infected but their immune systems fought it off. This:

Quote from: bmj article (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15553#msg15553)
The more tests are performed, the more likely it is that new cases will be found, and the higher total case numbers are relative to the proportion of cases that lead to death. Thus, the fatality rate decreases as this ratio widens.

Hi All

This California Physician speaking on behalf of many other physicians, just rips the official narratives and numbers apart.
As well as addressing the problems we are going to see due to shutting down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVo-w34zr7k

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15555#msg15555)
Hi All

This California Physician speaking on behalf of many other physicians, just rips the official narratives and numbers apart.
As well as addressing the problems we are going to see due to shutting down

T.M., thanks for the video. This physician says that the only way to cope with the virus is the develpment of herd immunity. The most vulnerable need to be protected, but others should be allowed to go back to work. There will not be a safe vaccine for 3 to 4 years, so how long is the lockdown going to continue?

Hi All

Hi Sena,

If people listen to the likes of Bill Gates and Fauci and friends, then the lockdown will probably never end.
But we will all get vaccinated whenever they think we should to assuage their fears of whatever.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15553#msg15553)
As of 2 April official statistics showed that 872 deaths from covid-19 had been recorded in Germany from 73 522 confirmed cases, translating to a fatality rate of 1.2%.

That was more than a month ago. As of today, Germany has 170,114 total cases (25,284 active, 137,385 recovered, 7,445 fatal). So fatal vs. total as a percentage is now: 4.38%. But as I pointed out earlier, that does not take into account the number of future deaths among active cases. Among those Germans who no longer have the virus (recovered + dead = 149,830), the death rate so far is 5.14%. Germany is farther along on the curve, probably because they were more proactive than the U.S. and may not have run into the problem of overwhelming hospitals as what happened in our hot spots. They also have a very robust healthcare system.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15553#msg15553)
Larry, you have posted the most pessimistic figure, which does not take into account the number of asymptomatic people with the virus.

Yes, I said that:

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15551#msg15551)
(based on confirmed cases, not factoring in asymptomatic cases that were not confirmed, which may be as low as 50%, but we just don't know)

"Sweden never shut down, now its death rate AND its economy are worse than its neighbors." The link below has charts comparing different countries in 'deaths per million' and 'economic contraction'.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/7/1943379/-Sweden-never-shut-down-now-their-death-rate-AND-economy-is-worse-than-their-neighbors?detail=emaildkre

"Many conservatives are in love with the idea of Sweden's approach—no lockdown. They don't take into consideration that half of Swedes live alone, or that they have a top-notch universal healthcare system. They just think "no lockdown" is a better response to the novel coronavirus pandemic.

If nothing else, Sweden's alternative response to the virus was ... a good control group. And what we're learning now is that failing to shut down hasn't just led to more deaths, but—surprise surprise!—it also didn't prevent its economy from tanking. In fact, Sweden is poised for more economic pain than its neighbors."

Another thing I've heard a few times recently is that the virus is harder on Afro Americans, I've heard they make up as much as 60% of the deceased here, but I've not yet heard to what they're attributing that. I suppose I need to do some searching to find out if it's something genetic or situational. I wonder how that affects the stats from other countries? I don't know the ratio of people of color to caucasians in places like Sweden.

There are just so many things to consider with these death rates, it's a not straightforward thing. Differences such as quality of health care, overcrowding, diet, overall health, age, lifestyle, underlying conditions and I'm sure more, play a factor.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15563#msg15563)
Another thing I've heard a few times recently is that the virus is harder on Afro Americans, I've heard they make up as much as 60% of the deceased here, but I've not yet heard to what they're attributing that.

African Americans have a higher rate of obesity, hypertension, and diabetes, all high-risk underlying conditions. Add to that the generally lower incomes and poor access to standard healthcare, generally more crowded living conditions, poorer air quality in urban environments, and good ol' racism. Minorities also dominate in many higher risk work categories such as taxi and bus drivers and the food service industry. Hispanics are also more affected by the pandemic. This is one of those areas where I think the pandemic is highlighting social needs that have been poorly addressed.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15560#msg15560)
That was more than a month ago. As of today, Germany has 170,114 total cases (25,284 active, 137,385 recovered, 7,445 fatal). So fatal vs. total as a percentage is now: 4.38%.

Larry, I stand corrected, but even Germany may not be doing enough tests to detect those infected without symptoms or with mild symptoms.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15561#msg15561)
"Sweden never shut down, now its death rate AND its economy are worse than its neighbors."

Larry, the evidence on Sweden is not clear. Here is an article published on 5th May:

"Sweden has reaped the benefits of keeping its economy out of lockdown after escaping the dramatic growth slumps suffered by European rivals.

The Scandinavian country has taken a far more relaxed approach to tackling the coronavirus than much of the West, keeping most schools, restaurants and businesses open and relying on a voluntary approach to social distancing.

Official figures show the country's economy shrank by just 0.3pc in the first three months of 2020, a far smaller decline than most forecasters and its central bank expected. The Riksbank had pencilled in a drop of between 0.8pc and 1.8pc.

The smaller scale of the fall contrasts with record slumps seen elsewhere across the Eurozone over the quarter as governments imposed much more stringent measures. France's economy tumbled 5.8pc, Italy's 4.7pc and Spain's by 5.2pc, while the Eurozone's output overall sank by 3.8pc - the worst decline in its history. The figures are likely to be far worse in the second quarter as lockdowns grind on...."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/05/05/light-touch-sweden-suffers-smaller-growth-hit-coronavirus/

Sena, of course the past effect on the Swedish economy would be less than other economies. The article that I linked to above looks at the projected effect, which is a decline of between 6.9 and 9.7%, vs. Denmark (6.5%) and Finland (6%).

Here's a link to an article about level of contagion that partially supports your position (contagion is higher) and partially supports mine (still not a good idea to lift restrictions too early):
https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/antibody-studies-suggest-coronavirus-is-twice-as-contagious-than-previously-assumed/ (https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/antibody-studies-suggest-coronavirus-is-twice-as-contagious-than-previously-assumed/)

"Ongoing antibody studies are revealing that SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, is far more virulent than previously assumed, with preliminary data from these serological studies showing that the infection rate of the coronavirus may be up to ten times higher than the number of confirmed COVID-19 cases. Although this implies that only one in ten cases produces symptoms bad enough for the patient to warrant testing for the coronavirus, it does mean that the virus itself has infected ten times the number of people than what was previously assumed. But does this discovery mean that the coronavirus was less deadly than the flu all along?"

"The bottom line is that despite the lower estimated per-case fatality rate, the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus still remains at least five times more deadly than the seasonal flu for any given individual infection; combined with the sheer virulence of the disease, this could spell disaster as numerous states begin to lift social distancing restrictions, resulting in an increase in hospitalizations and deaths that are already projected to double by June 1, as per an internal White House document."

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15569#msg15569)
Sena, of course the past effect on the Swedish economy would be less than other economies. The article that I linked to above looks at the projected effect, which is a decline of between 6.9 and 9.7%, vs. Denmark (6.5%) and Finland (6%).

Larry, if the rest of the world goes into a deep recession, that would obviously have an adverse effect on the Swedish economy.

You seem to be posting extracts from websites and newspapers calculated to produce fear in readers. This is what Seth had to say about fear:

"There is a short-circuiting process in which even good intentions are distorted and turned to other purposes. That which is feared is feared so strongly and concentrated upon so intensely that it is attracted rather than repelled. The approach should not be fear of war but love of peace; not fear of poor health but concentration upon the enjoyment of good health; not fear of poverty, but concentration upon the unlimited supplies available on your earth."
—The Early Sessions Book 8 Session 337 April 26, 1967

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15570#msg15570)
You seem to be posting extracts from websites and newspapers calculated to produce fear in readers.

Sena, I have little personal concern regarding the virus. I feel quite safe. It is not fear of the virus that I am responding to, it is concern for all of those who would be affected by reopening too quickly, not just the deaths, but the needless suffering among those who will not die from this. I could say that you are reacting to fear of the economic consequences. The armed protesters with their Nazi flags certainly are. Their efforts to open before we have adequate testing and contact tracing ironically will result in more deaths and further economic pain. I trust that the economy will recover, and the long-term consequences of the pandemic will largely be positive. My focus has largely been on these potential positives.

You have been posting extracts from websites and newspapers that show one extreme viewpoint. My posts have been based on the most current actual facts, and even when what I post does not come directly from the source, it is derived from simple math.

I thought you guys might appreciate this article. https://www.aier.org/article/woodstock-occurred-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic

I remember Woodstock, although I was 13 and too young to go. I remember the name "Hong Kong flu," but don't remember anything else about it. I guess it was a nonevent for me.

It does bring up some good questions.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

I got what the Dr called the Hong Kong flu when I was in the 2nd grade. Strangest flu I've ever had. At 6am, everyday as I got up for school I would throw up and run a high fever and go back to bed. By 12 noon everyday, I would be wide awake, full of energy, showing 0 signs of sickness till 6 am the next day.
My Dad was starting to wonder if I was actually sick after a few days of that, till he saw me at 6 am.

I still wonder myself if that's what it actually was. I was in an extremely small town and not aware of anyone else catching it. Then again, at that age I didn't really pay attention to things like that.

From the notes at the end of the article that Deb linked:

"Readers have pointed out that this virus in the US came in two large seasonal waves in the Winter months, while Woodstock happened in August."

The Hong Kong Flu was seasonal, and there was no reason to suspect otherwise. I'm sure that even the planners of Woodstock presumed that it would be a non-issue in August. I don't know if hospitals were overwhelmed and caught short of supplies, but I suspect that since the flu didn't last seven weeks, patients were in and out or died quickly. Maybe T.M. can remember how long it lasted for him/her. Also, the article does not say how many people actually caught the flu, so we don't know how easily it spread. We know covid-19 spreads easily, and we have a 64% higher population that is older and more obese, so it's now harder to control regardless.

Hi All,

Hi Larry,

Lasted about 6 days

Eta: no real coughing and sneezing. Just extremely high temp and inner woozines.

Perhaps the point of the article was completely missed. For me it was less about Woodstock, and more about how the pandemic was handled in general by the country.

T.M. it's interesting your illness diagnosed as Hong Kong Flu, also interesting because there was probably no diagnostic test available to most doctors at the time.

When I was 17 I became very ill with throat so sore that I lost my voice, could not swallow my own saliva, high fever to the point of being delirious. I was diagnosed with a throat infection. It backed off for a while, and then came back soon with a vengeance. I still remember being at work at a department store and walking down the main aisle of the store being barely in touch with reality. My father picked me up and brought me home. Second diagnosis was mononucleosis, the doctor being very excited about this because I was his first case. That was in 1973.

I ended up sleeping for at least 2 weeks, not being able to eat, a temp of 105°, complete misery and delirium. I missed most of my third semester as a HS senior, which was tough because I'd skipped the 11th grade and was doubled down on core credits. Somehow I managed to make up for lost time and graduate, with only one post-graduation summer class. As I had my diploma in hand, apparently they trusted me to follow through. Having gone through that, I wouldn't want to have to go through corona because I remember what it was like.

But yes, our population is fatter and sicker now due to the SAD diet. If anyone is interested in knowing more about our diet and how health is affected, just watch the documentary The Magic Pill. It's free on Amazon Prime. It sums up everything I've learned in the past 15 years.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

I rarely got sick as a kid. That honk Kong flu, or whatever it was was, was one of those times. I think that's why it stands out in my memory.
Funny when I was around 15 or so, I had a non stop cold tinged with flu at times for 5 straight years. Dr called it strep throat and wanted to remove my tonsils. I wouldn't let them. Glad now I didn't. After that I was average, compared with everyone else  for colds. Flu's are still rare for me.
15 was around the time I started eating lots of processed foods??!!  :)


I'm watching The Magic Pill documentary now.  It's free on YouTube too :)
For health reasons, and reading lots of Louis Hay, I radically changed my diet years ago. I try to stick to meat and veges as much as possible, and am ok with skipping meat somewhat occasionally. I tried vegan, a few times. My body didn't like it. That was a struggle, and I was very low on energy.
I've recently added oatmeal. Generally yes, from scratch ingredients.
I still battle some with sugar. I am aware how dangerous it can be. At least the way I cook, it has to be added.
Dr Kaufman is suggesting normal colds and flus these days is the body's way of burning out the crud accumulated from life during these times. I agree with him.  I've had a few mild colds in the last 8 years. 2 of which I got while in the apartment complex. That thankfully I moved out of!!!
Otherwise I'm fairly healthy, and on No medication for diabetes or anything else. I haven't taken over the counter stuff either in years.

I agree I think much of the illness people experience these days, not to mention their immune systems ability to fight off infections, is highly compromised due to their diet, and what they are being told by official source's, that their diet should consist of.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15578#msg15578)
But yes, our population is fatter and sicker now due to the SAD diet. If anyone is interested in knowing more about our diet and how health is affected, just watch the documentary The Magic Pill. It's free on Amazon Prime. It sums up everything I've learned in the past 15 years.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

On the other hand, Seth has quite a bit to say about health and diet in NOPR. In  NOPR, Ch 16, S660, Seth says:

What you think about your body, health, and illness will determine how your food is used, and how your chemistry handles fats, for instance, or carbohydrates. Your attitudes in preparing meals are highly important.

Physically, it is true, but again generally speaking, that your body needs certain nourishments. But within that pattern there is great leeway, and the organism itself has the amazing capacity to make use of substitutes and alternates. The best diet in the world, by anyone's standards, will not keep you healthy if you have a belief in illness.

A belief in health can help you utilize a "poor" diet to an amazing degree. If you are convinced that a specific food will give you a particular disease, it will indeed do so.




Seth has quite a bit to say about this topic in this session. I've copied some of this session in the spoiler below (thanks to the Seth Search Engine):





-jbseth

Quote from: seth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15580#msg15580)
A belief in health can help you utilize a "poor" diet to an amazing degree.

Yeah, who would ever have thought that Keith Richards would still be upright.

Seth did say that what we believe about what we eat is more important than what we actually eat. Yet, he did give Jane and Rob some dietary advice and has made comments about the body's needs. And also advised acknowledged a few times that overeating causes obesity, for instance he told someone (can't find the quote) that (paraphrasing) "you are not overweight because you eat too much, you eat too much because you believe you're overweight." That's almost a contradiction.

"There are times, you see, when certain foods are of great benefit, and times when they are not."
—TPS7 Deleted Session October 28, 1982

"The body at times needs certain kinds of fats, and at other times does not"
—TPS7 Deleted Session October 28, 1982

He also made this comment about medicine, which stuck with me:

"Now in the context of usual Western learning, and with the introduction of modern drugs, you are in somewhat of a quandary. The body knows how to handle "natural" drugs coming directly from the earth — whether ground or boiled, minced or steamed. A large variety of "manufactured" drugs offer an unfamiliarity to the body's innate structure, which can lead to strong defense mechanisms. These are often aimed directly against the drug instead of the disease itself. Such a situation means that you must then use another drug to counteract the one just given.

"(Pause at 9:58.) I am not suggesting that you not visit doctors or not take drugs of that nature, as long as you believe in the structure of medical discipline that the Western world has evolved. Your bodies have been conditioned to it through the use of such medications since birth. There are many casualties, but this is still a system that you have chosen, and your ideas still form your reality. No one dies who has not made the decision to do so — and no disease is accepted blindly. Put simply, your thoughts can be regarded as invisible viruses, carriers, sparks setting off reactions not only within the body but the entire physical system as you know it."
—NoPR Chapter 7: Session 631, December 18, 1972

My feeling is that since our bodies are physical, physical components from the earth are its building blocks, Hippocrates was right, and so our bodies would also better handle "'natural' foods coming directly from the earth."

Who knows, maybe "overweight" is subjective. Maybe back before the 70% or so of Americans we now consider overweight, people were actually underweight. Who determined what BMI is healthy? Or maybe it's just natural for humans to overeat during prosperous times. And maybe this "epidemic" of fat and chronically ill people is another mass statement, one that will return us to respecting, and cooperating with, nature in a future where farmed animals are treated humanely and permitted to eat a species appropriate diet (until we stop eating animals altogether), we stop over-farming the land, over-processing our foods, and people go back to eating the way our ancestors did.

Another topic another day, about food, obesity and our health. It is all about what we believe and think according to Seth, but we have also set up and agreed to certain conventions on this planet. Hard to know what those are, other than the major ones.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15579#msg15579)I try to stick to meat and vegges as much as possible, and am ok with skipping meat somewhat occasionally.

That's what I pretty much do too. Out of curiosity I went on Atkins at least 10-15 years ago, despite a lot of ridicule. I realized I felt really great, had a lot of energy, skin, hair and nails were super healthy. It just agreed with me and it changed my eating habits. Everybody is different, and so every body is different. I run best on protein and vegs, Keith runs best on a cocktail of illegal substances.  ::)

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

There are some who think Keith and Mick are alien reptoids from another planet. :o  8)  ;D ;D
I'm not so sure they are wrong  ;D

"In your system of probabilities there are no reptilian men or women, yet in other probabilities they do indeed exist"
—UR2 Section 4: Session 705 June 24, 1974


Bwahahaha!!   ;D

Deb, the quote that you were paraphrasing is in jbseth's spoiler above:

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15580#msg15580)
You begin a round of diets, all based on the idea that you are overweight because you eat too much. Instead, you eat too much because you believe that you are overweight. The physical picture always fits because your belief in being overweight conditions your body to behave in just such a manner.

Related to belief and hypnosis about our diets, I have often wondered about the current gluten-free craze. It seems that among my acquaintances who are oriented toward metaphysics, they tend to be more likely to be gluten-intolerant. It's as if it's the cool thing to be. Outside of that group, I know almost nobody who claims gluten-intolerance.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15585#msg15585)
Deb, the quote that you were paraphrasing is in jbseth's spoiler above:

Ah thanks, I skimmed through the spoiler and missed it. I don't know why it wasn't showing up on the Seth search engine.

I'm not sure what to think about the gluten issues. There are people who will say it's because wheat has been so engineered (to grow shorter and more quickly) that the proteins have been changed to something unrecognizable to our bodies. Other say it's the Roundup being used to kill the wheat before harvest (most farmers deny that's being done), and that it's really a Roundup intolerance. Other's will say its a result of leaky gut syndrome.

Maybe it's something along the lines of mass hysteria or herd mentality or it's "all the rage." Like the popularity of pet rocks. ;)

BTW anyone else realize we hit a milestone yesterday? 500 members. Plus one.

Oh and because you all don't get notices of everything being posted here like I do (when the mail fairies are doing their job), today I put up a link to interviews of Rich Kendall and Larry Davidson. https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=1991

Forgive me father, for I have sinned... just kidding. Last night we had friends over for dinner <gasp>. The husband is 50, a male nurse working in a nursing home in a fairly highly populated suburb of Denver. The wife is from Brazil, they've only been married a few months. The daughter/step-daughter just graduated high school and has recently chosen a very good local school to further her education in engineering, her interest being in designing medical devices. @LarryH, apparently her school test scores are off the chart. I told them about your ventilator.

So, he has mentioned a couple of times lately that there has not been one case of covid at the nursing home. The local hospitals have been pretty much closed—no cases of the virus, of course no elective surgeries, most traumas are dramatically decreased due to reduced auto traffic and activities. He, and family, have said they don't know anyone personally that has officially had the virus. Actually, neither do I.

This kind of stuff makes me wonder.

Tonight my next door neighbors are having a party of sorts. Lots of cars parked on the street, tables on the driveway, all properly distanced. People find a way. The new normal.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15589#msg15589)
So, he has mentioned a couple of times lately that there has not been one case of covid at the nursing home. The local hospitals have been pretty much closed—no cases of the virus, of course no elective surgeries...

My guess is that with the shortage of protective equipment, the country did not want them used up for elective surgeries. You would think that it would not be that hard to solve that problem, as the equipment is fairly low-tech. In my area, elective surgeries have been OK'd. Restaurants are opening at 25% capacity. Nursing homes in Florida as well as other states are where many of the cases of both residents and employees have occurred. Two nursing homes in the county have multiple cases. My mother is in a senior care facility 6 miles away, and I have not seen her for about 6 or 7 weeks, per state directives. Normally, residents are in a large room together and dine together, but twice now, an employee has shown symptoms, and the residents are then confined to their rooms until the employee is tested negative. My county has three hospitals, one VA and two large regional hospitals. Officially, there have been 59 covid hospitalizations and only 5 deaths in the county. But an acquaintance emailed me that a nurse at one of those hospitals said that her hospital alone has had 13 covid deaths. My acquaintance concluded that "the state is lying to us," but I said it's possible that these major hospitals are  serving patients from outside the county, and that many of those alleged deaths may be residents of other counties and thus counted as deaths in those counties. Then today, another friend said that the county had had 40 covid deaths, though when I asked, she could not find the link to her source. Some good news, though - I had reported here that my last project manager had the virus, but that turned out to be false info. So I'm back to not knowing anybody with the virus.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15589#msg15589)
Tonight my next door neighbors are having a party of sorts.

Deb, you are lucky that you are allowed to have parties. Parties are not allowed in the U.K. at least for another 3 weeks.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15586#msg15586)
Related to belief and hypnosis about our diets, I have often wondered about the current gluten-free craze. It seems that among my acquaintances who are oriented toward metaphysics, they tend to be more likely to be gluten-intolerant. It's as if it's the cool thing to be. Outside of that group, I know almost nobody who claims gluten-intolerance.

Hi LarryH, Hi All,
I've often wondered about the same thing, not only about the gluten-free diets but in regards to many of the other diets as well. Often it seems to me that these are just the latest food fad, type of things that are going on for people. Specifically, given what Seth said below in S660.  (Seth's comment are in red font but I used blue font to emphasize some of his important statements.)



NOPR, Ch 16, S660
You are what you think, not what you eat — and to a large extent what you think about what you eat is far more important.

What you think about your body, health, and illness will determine how your food is used, and how your chemistry handles fats, for instance, or carbohydrates. Your attitudes in preparing meals are highly important.

Physically, it is true, but again generally speaking, that your body needs certain nourishments. But within that pattern there is great leeway, and the organism itself has the amazing capacity to make use of substitutes and alternates. The best diet in the world, by anyone's standards, will not keep you healthy if you have a belief in illness.

A belief in health can help you utilize a "poor" diet to an amazing degree.



And in this same session, he also says the following, which makes me wonder about the various diets over the years; are they just the latest "food fads"?



Now: Generally speaking, those who advocate health foods or natural foods subscribe to some of the same overall beliefs held by your physicians.

They believe that diseases are the result of exterior conditions. Quite simply, their policy can be read: "You are what you eat." Some in this group also subscribe to philosophical ideas that somewhat moderate those concepts, recognizing the importance of the mind. Often though, some strong suggestions of a very negative character are given, so that all foods except certain accepted ones are seen as bad for the body, and the cause of diseases. People become afraid of the food they eat, and the field of eating then becomes the arena.

Moral values become attached to food, with some seen as good and some as bad. Symptoms appear, and are quite directly considered to be the natural result of ingesting foods on the forbidden list.




Then, along with this, I recently came across this Seth statement about vitamins in TES9 Session 422. I wonder how many people have ever even considered that this is a possibility?


Now. Physical illness is not a natural condition. It also necessitates additional work of this same sort, hence often the physical vitamin deficiencies that occur. In many cases they do not cause a disease, but are the result of it.



In the past, I know that some people were taking large doses of vitamin "C" in order to "prevent" a cold.  I often wonder whether it was the "belief" that large doses of vitamin C could prevent a cold, that actually worked here.

Perhaps what we should do instead is, for example, maintain a "belief" that health is a natural state of your body. Then, if you get a cold, take vitamin C at that time, to replenish the loss in vitamins that may occur as a result of the cold.


-jbseth

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15590#msg15590)
My acquaintance concluded that "the state is lying to us," but I said it's possible that these major hospitals are  serving patients from outside the county, and that many of those alleged deaths may be residents of other counties and thus counted as deaths in those counties. Then today, another friend said that the county had had 40 covid deaths, though when I asked, she could not find the link to her source. Some good news, though - I had reported here that my last project manager had the virus, but that turned out to be false info. So I'm back to not knowing anybody with the virus.

Great news about your not knowing anyone with the virus. It's been a little frustrating to me that information has been so unreliable. I've read articles about things related to the virus and when I want to go back and read them again, they are gone without a trace. The amount of inaccuracies in information is astounding to me and has been scaring the public. But fear sells. There's a social control aspect too—people who are frightened are more likely to voluntarily follow the restrictions and guidelines and put pressure on peers.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15592#msg15592)
Deb, you are lucky that you are allowed to have parties. Parties are not allowed in the U.K. at least for another 3 weeks.

Sena, we are not allowed to have parties either. They also had it in their front yard—maybe so the young children could play in our cul du sac. Or maybe they were flaunting their defiance of the restrictions, as they have a large back yard and could have easily congregated there. Nonconformists? They had chairs and small tables set up on the driveway, properly socially distanced.

I thought this YT on fear was interesting. I'm not saying the virus is just one elaborate fear campaign, I realize it's real and it's worldwide—world governments could never cooperate in a way to pull off something this widespread. But the fear factor is something to keep in the back of the mind. The next YT, The Psychology of Conformity, was also very good and touches on the fear of death. There's a quote at the end from Nietzsche that stood out to me, it reminded what Seth said about our uniqueness (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=38), "In each of you resides a uniqueness that is never recaptured, no matter how many times you are reincarnated."

Nietzsche: "In his heart every man knows quite well that, being unique, he will be in the world only once and that there will be no second chance for his oneness to coalesce from the strangely variegated assortment that he is"

And maybe all those people "with" gluten issues are conformists.

https://youtu.be/w_ybzC2wP7Q

https://youtu.be/ARGczzoPASo

Hi All,

Hi Jbseth,

The whole vitamin C thing puzzles me some too. It's recommended for so many things. I was thinking a bit ago, how or where did the species get so deficient in Vit C that's it's recommended to take daily, and x2 or x3 in cold and flu season ???

When this started I upped my c. I usually take one after going out shopping. Otherwise, occasionally.
The only 2 supplements I try to take daily are cell salts, and Spirulina. I will take a Centrum daily for awhile and then stop for awhile, and then just occasionally when I feel like it.
Cell salts allow vitamins to be processed by the body. The way it was explained to me, if you don't take them, then take vitamins, the body won't recognize or use the vitamin.

I don't get the gluten thing either. I just don't eat bread much. I do like deli sandwiches at times.
The mass produced stuff has so many weird chemical additives in it.

Hi Deb,

I've been subbed to Academy of Ideas for awhile. They have some good vids!

Subscribed to Academy of Ideas!

So, this is the kind of stuff that drives me a little batty (pardon the pun). Wear a mask, don't wear a mask, wear a mask or else you are endangering others' lives, don't wear a mask, you're endangering your own life...  >:(

https://www.newsmax.com/us/surgeon-general-adams-masks/2020/03/31/id/960679

What I got from that article was, wear a mask if you feel safer, don't touch your face while wearing a mask, and don't use a mask as an excuse to get too close to people.

What I did not get from the article was, wear a mask in case you are an asymptomatic carrier, and wear a mask to help others around you feel safer.

Deb, if you were confused before, contrary to the article that you linked above, the CDC website https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html) says in part:

"CDC continues to study the spread and effects of the novel coronavirus across the United States.  We now know from recent studies that a significant portion of individuals with coronavirus lack symptoms ("asymptomatic") and that even those who eventually develop symptoms ("pre-symptomatic") can transmit the virus to others before showing symptoms.  This means that the virus can spread between people interacting in close proximity—for example, speaking, coughing, or sneezing—even if those people are not exhibiting symptoms.  In light of this new evidence, CDC recommends wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where other social distancing measures are difficult to maintain (e.g., grocery stores and pharmacies) especially in areas of significant community-based transmission."

Then below that is a video of the guy that your article claims to be against wearing a face mask, but in the video, he is demonstrating how to make a face mask!

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15598#msg15598)
Then below that is a video of the guy that your article claims to be against wearing a face mask, but in the video, he is demonstrating how to make a face mask!

Yep, that was him a couple of months ago or so demonstrating how to made a "face covering" out of various household items. My "old t-shirts" are like sieves.

I just went to Walmart and they have a sign out front saying due to "state and local mandates" all customers are required to wear a face covering in the store, so no decision to make there—no mask, no entry. There was a bouncer at the entrance.

But then my grocery story does not require masks, although most of the public have been wearing them just to keep the peace. Employees are required to, but I've noticed that a lot of them pull the mask down to their chin in order to talk.  ::)

I keep a bottle of "disinfectant" (Everclear + aloe gel from my plant) in the car, and use it on my hands and also rub some on the mask. Can't hurt. I just don't want to get pulled over and try to explain why I smell like liquor. 

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15599#msg15599)
I just went to Walmart and they have a sign out front saying due to "state and local mandates" all customers are required to wear a face covering in the store, so no decision to make there—no mask, no entry. There was a bouncer at the entrance.

Deb, hospital staff do need to wear air-filtering masks to keep safe. Compelling the general public to wear useless masks is designed to increase fear and anxiety.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15604#msg15604)
Compelling the general public to wear useless masks is designed to increase fear and anxiety.

Sena, are you saying that masks do not help in reducing the spread of airborne virus from coughs, sneezes, and breath from infected people? Are you saying that the medical and scientific personnel who recommend using masks in public want to increase fear and anxiety as opposed to helping people to be safer in public? Why would they do that?

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15605#msg15605)
Why would they do that?

Larry, probably for the same reason that you are trying to spread fear.
Why is it that the majority of people with Covid 19 recover from it, and a small percentage dies? It is likely that fear is a factor.

("All viruses of any kind are important to the stability of your planetary
life. They are a part of the planet's biological heritage and memory. You
cannot eradicate a virus, though at any given time you destroy every member
alive of any given strain. They exist in the earth's memory, to be recreated,
as they were before, whenever the need arises.)"

(The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, p.183)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15606#msg15606)
Larry, probably for the same reason that you are trying to spread fear.

Since I am not trying to spread fear, your statement does not answer my questions. But maybe you don't have an answer or evidence for your claims. The predominance of my virus-related postings here fall under the following categories:

-Posting inspiring and uplifting humor-based links (in the Laughter is the best medicine category)
-Suggesting the positives and asking others to suggest positives that can come out of this mass event
-Debating the effectiveness of various policies around the world based on outcomes, math, and logic

The first two are more in line with a Sethian context, although the third is not anti-Sethian, as Seth does not suggest burying one's head in the sand regarding the realities of world events. It is Sethian to take scientific and medical advice with a grain of salt, but that is not an excuse to utterly dismiss such advice, given especially that most people in the world are not Seth readers.

"It's not a decision to try to protect [one] from getting coronavirus," according to CDC director Robert Redfield. "It's to help modify spreading. And there is scientific data to show that when you aerosolized virus through a cloth barrier, you have a reduction in the amount of virus that gets through the other side."[quote="
Why is it that the majority of people with Covid 19 recover from it, and a small percentage dies? It is likely that fear is a factor.
[/quote]

Fear of death once they have the disease? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. When experts encourage the use of masks in public, is that making those who have the disease more afraid and thus more likely to die? Just trying to follow your logic path.

(https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EA%20way%20to%20spread%20fear%20is%20to%20say,%20"You%20can't%20trust%20the%20experts,%20they%20do%20not%20know%20what%20they%20are%20doing."%20Promote%20conspiracy%20theories%20about%20the%20deep%20state,%20satan,%20and%20reptilians.%20Claim%20that%20mainstream%20media%20is%20"fake%20news"%20while%20promoting%20actual%20fake%20news%20sources.%20Demonstrate%20in%20front%20of%20capitol%20buildings%20with%20automatic%20weapons.%20%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bquote="%5Burl=https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15606#msg15606%5DSena%5B/url%5D")

Hi All,


The NDAA Legalizes The Use Of Propaganda On The US Public. Article date May 21 2012
https://www.businessinsider.com/ndaa-legalizes-propaganda-2012-5

The newest version of the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) includes an amendment that would legalize the use of propaganda on the American public, reports Michael Hastings of BuzzFeed.
The amendment — proposed by Mac Thornberry (R-Texas) and Adam Smith (D-Wash.) and passed in the House last Friday afternoon — would effectively nullify the Smith-Mundt Act of 1948, which explicitly forbids information and psychological operations aimed at influencing U.S. public opinion.


Tuskegee Airmen
https://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm

The study initially involved 600 black men – 399 with syphilis, 201 who did not have the disease. The study was conducted without the benefit of patients' informed consent. Researchers told the men they were being treated for "bad blood," a local term used to describe several ailments, including syphilis, anemia, and fatigue. In truth, they did not receive the proper treatment needed to cure their illness. In exchange for taking part in the study, the men received free medical exams, free meals, and burial insurance. Although originally projected to last 6 months, the study actually went on for 40 years.


One good thing I see coming out of this is many people starting to question what their governments, and agencies throw at them!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l27eW4HgDro
0-2:33
Italian prime minister disputing the official narrative, lies as he calls them, with the Italian president in Parliament.
President of Tanzania exposing testing inaccuracies of cv19

Joseph Goebbels:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

T.M., your video claims governments have colluded to control us with lies. Meanwhile, the most prominent representative of the U.S. government is encouraging armed protests within states, while minimizing the effects of the virus and constantly contradicting the medical experts. Meanwhile, due to the lax attitude at the top, the White House now has two cases, people who have been in contact with the president and the VP. So the U.S. government is not among those who have "colluded", except for, I guess, health officials. To what end are the health officials following Nazi propaganda techniques as you imply in your Goebbels quote?

No matter what we feel about official guidelines, we all want the same things - freedom to interact among others without restrictions, health, a strong economy. We just differ on how to get there. This will be over, and when it is over, there will be many positive changes that were not happening quickly enough, as I have stated in the past.

Hi All,

Hi Larry,
Under the video I posted I referenced the relevant part:
"0-2:33
Italian prime minister disputing the official narrative, lies as he calls them, with the Italian president in Parliament.
President of Tanzania exposing testing inaccuracies of cv19"

Where did I attribute the quote from Goebbels to anyone.?

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15611#msg15611)
Where did I attribute the quote from Goebbels to anyone.?

You posted a Goebbels quote. The implication of posting it is to support the idea that governments lie. I agree that governments lie. We just apparently disagree as to which part of the U.S. government is lying. Your opinion is apparently the medical officials. So what is it that the medical officials gain by lying and suggesting all these protections?

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15611#msg15611)
President of Tanzania exposing testing inaccuracies of cv19"

Yes, that's interesting. It is known that many animals carry variations of corona viruses. These may be sufficiently similar that they test positive with the tests that are intended for humans. In fact, that is one explanation for human false positives - if a human has had a cold or flu in the last year, which are also caused by corona viruses, that could trigger a false positive. We don't know which of the hundreds of test versions in the world were used in Tanzania, but we know that most of them have not been validated by regulatory agencies. So there are enough questions about this to question its credibility until we know more about it.

Hi All,

Hi Larry,

The Goebbels quote is something I think everyone should keep in mind. I'm not linking it to 1 specific government, or specifically and exclusively the U.S.

"So what is it that the medical officials gain by lying and suggesting all these protections?"

In the U.S. specifically, I think the medical officials are just repeating what they are told too by officials. 
The reason? I can only speculate. I do suspect world wide top to bottom reorganization of society and how it functions, using fear as the motivating impetus.

There's many Dr's coming out against every part of this, that aren't receiving main stream coverage. So which news source is valid?!  I don't think there is a definitive answer to that question that will make everyone happy.

Wow, wild video, especially the claims of the Italian PM, and Pres of Tanzania about the false positives. Kind of makes you wonder. Thanks for that.

Here's the third video from Dr. Jay Bhattacharya regarding the results of the antibody studies on the baseball employees around the country. Nothing earth-shattering, but he did bring up some good points about how we've handled the virus lockdowns (damed if you do, damned if you don't). He's very matter of fact, neutral, no drama. He mentions a predicted surge in TB cases and deaths in India ( huge problem there ) due to the lack of testing/treatment since the lockdowns. I'm sure there are plenty of other diseases that are getting a leg up due to the virus. I feel it would be wise to factor that type of thing into decision making, in addition to the depression, suicides and financial ruin for some people.

LA Country is considering extending the lockdown for 3 more months, while Colorado very slowly testing lightening up on restrictions, depending on the county. A restaurant in Castle Rock was open on Sunday, against restrictions. The owner said if she didn't open, she would lose her business. She just did anyway—she was shut down by the health department and I heard she lost her business license. Another case of damned/damned.

I had downloaded the audio (mp3) of the Dr Jay interview this morning so I could listen on an iPod while doing other stuff. You're welcome to download it from my Dropbox. I'll leave it up for a week or so.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t5kz1i9vbpyt5po/DrJayBhattacharya.mp3?dl=0

https://youtu.be/289NWm85eas

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15608#msg15608)
One good thing I see coming out of this is many people starting to question what their governments, and agencies throw at them!

Just had to follow up. Yes, my feeling is never flat out trust the media, politicians and government agencies. I'm not into conspiracies, but I do believe in "question everything." Too much room for corruption, special interests and payoffs. Do your homework and take all news with a salt lick. Loved the guy at the end, after the alligator. At this point I'm glad I'm not 20 years old, I'm not sure how much more of this reality I can handle. "Free will is a little bit of a sin." Lol. The guy in the blue shirt is my favorite part of the video.

Is the 'cure worse than the disease?' Health stats from the Great Depression show it's not.

https://www.upworthy.com/when-people-say-the-cure-cant-be-worse-than-the-disease-ask-to-see-their-math (https://www.upworthy.com/when-people-say-the-cure-cant-be-worse-than-the-disease-ask-to-see-their-math)

Deb, I watched 15 minutes of your Uncommon Knowledge interview, and I was stunned by their speculation that people who are in favor of the lockdown think that the lockdown should continue until the virus is eradicated. That's simply not true! What I and the medical experts have been saying is that we should have adequate virus and antibody testing and an effective contact tracing method in place before lifting all the guidelines. In addition, we needed to have adequate protective supplies for medical personnel before we risked another spike in cases, but I think we are close in that category, and I think the ventilator supply will be adequate. Many states are gradually opening up, though often faster than the federal guidelines would suggest. We will see how it goes.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

Thank you for posting Dr Battacharya!  He's giving me quite a bit to think about. I will keep listening to him.
I'm not for much of anything officials suggest, (because they lie so much) even testing and contact tracing.
After listening to Dr B, I see a practicality and value in it. I still think it needs to be monitored for .gov overreach. Or as an excuse to make people who ask too many questions magically disappear!

I wish there were more politicians like the one in the vid speaking out. Or maybe they are, it's just not being covered.
People are people though. They get away with what they can. Most all populations have let their respective governments get away with more than they should. Hopefully, populations will stop doing that.

Eta: I found it very interesting the Dr mentioned most of the cases are being caught indoors. I think the power and ability of plenty of fresh air still is undervalued by today's medical society.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15619#msg15619)
I'm not for much of anything officials suggest, (because they lie so much) even testing and contact tracing.

How can anybody be against testing and contact tracing????????????????????????????????????????

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15618#msg15618)
I was stunned by their speculation that people who are in favor of the lockdown think that the lockdown should continue until the virus is eradicated. That's simply not true!

I don't have a problem with speculation, as long as it's presented as that. They were speculating that in the back of some people's heads, we can eradicate this disease if we can just stay locked down. I don't have a problem with that speculation, they presented it as such and I've heard too many people say, personally, that they are staying indoors until it's safe to come out. Not just a degree of safety, but safe, period. Unrealistic, but based in fear. Fear for what would happen to their families, children, if they die. Fear of death in general. And after hearing stories of how debilitating this virus can be, fear of getting sick.

I've heard many times in the news from a few sources that we should stay locked down until there's a vaccine, which could be 18 months to 2 years, if ever. I'm not a mind reader, but I think there are people that think vaccines completely eradicate viruses, such as with polio, MMR, etc., but which still tend to pop up once in a while. (https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immunization_misconceptions/en/index2.html) Even Seth said we can never completely eradicate a virus.

Just a quick search this morning brought up several articles mostly based on a paper published in The Lancet in early April recommending staying locked down until there is a vaccine. Also not realistic in my mind.

"Coronavirus lockdowns across the globe should not be completely lifted until a vaccine for the disease is found, according to a study based on China's outbreak published in medical journal The Lancet."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-coronavirus-lancet-intl/index.html

"Lockdowns can't end until Covid-19 vaccine found, study says"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/lockdowns-cant-end-until-covid-19-vaccine-found-study-says

"The minister for patient safety, suicide prevention and mental health [MP Nadine Dorries] tweeted that until a Covid-19 vaccine is developed and made available to the public, society will have to "adapt" to a "full lockdown".

"In a tweet on Wednesday, she said: "Journalists should stop asking about an 'exit strategy'. There is only one way we can 'exit' full lockdown and that is when we have a vaccine."
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-nadine-dories-mp-lockdown-exit-strategy-vaccine-a9468341.html

"Britain will stay in lockdown until coronavirus vaccine is found, health minister says"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/uk-will-stay-in-lockdown-until-vaccine-is-found-health-minister-says-a4415561.html

"When Governments Switched Their Story from "Flatten the Curve" to "Lockdown until Vaccine""
"The new narrative was this: the death toll will simply be too gruesome and unbearable to allow people to continue on with some semblance of an ordinary life. So, we must keep society locked down indefinitely until a vaccine is found or until there can be enough testing and tracking of infections among the entire population. Until then, only minimal "essential" activities will be allowed. This could last eighteen months, or two years, or more.

"Similarly, former presidential advisor and physician Ezekiel Emmanuel flatly stated that there is "no choice" but to stay locked down indefinitely:

"Realistically, COVID-19 will be here for the next 18 months or more. We will not be able to return to normalcy until we find a vaccine or effective medications. I know that's dreadful news to hear. How are people supposed to find work if this goes on in some form for a year and a half? Is all that economic pain worth trying to stop COVID-19? The truth is we have no choice. [emphasis added.]"
https://mises.org/wire/when-governments-switched-their-story-flatten-curve-lockdown-until-vaccine

I was curious why there was not a vaccine developed with the first round of SARs, SARS-CoV-1 and found this pretty basic article:

https://theconversation.com/the-mysterious-disappearance-of-the-first-sars-virus-and-why-we-need-a-vaccine-for-the-current-one-but-didnt-for-the-other-137583

Also, I just saw this today. I'm in the process of downloading the YouTube as an mp3 so I can listen to it today. If there's anything of value or sense in it, I'll update here.

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/05/13/digital-vaccination-certificate.aspx?cid_source=dnl&cid_medium=email&cid_content=art1HL&cid=20200513Z1&et_cid=DM534038&et_rid=870764314

From the article:

QuoteBill Gates — who illegally invests in the same industries he gives charitable donations to, and who promotes a global public health agenda that benefits the companies he's invested in — has gone on record saying life will not go back to normal until we have the ability to vaccinate the entire global population against COVID-19.1

To that end, he is pushing for disease surveillance and a vaccine tracking system2 that might involve embedding vaccination records on our bodies. One example of how this might be done is using an invisible ink quantum dot tattoo, described in a December 18, 2019, Science Translational Medicine paper.3,4

According to statements made by Gates, societal and financial normalcy may never return to those who refuse vaccination, as the digital vaccination certificate Gates is pushing for might ultimately be required to go about your day-to-day life and business. Without this "digital immunity proof," you may not even be allowed to travel locally or visit certain public buildings.

Gates has a history of "predicting" global pandemics with vast numbers of deaths,5 and with his call for a tracking system to keep tabs on infected/noninfected and vaccinated/unvaccinated individuals, he's ensuring an unimaginably profitable future for the vaccine makers he supports and makes money from via his Foundation investments.

Yikes, it's starting to sound like China tracking all of its citizens via phone apps. Phone ownership is mandatory.

Thanks Deb, I had no idea that there were so many suggestions of "complete" lockdown until there was a complete solution. I am not in favor of that. Widely available testing, some method of contact tracing, and quarantining carriers seems to me the path to lifting the lockdowns, and we could get there quickly if those were prioritized. Infections would continue at a low level, but economies would begin to recover. Other countries (Taiwan, New Zealand) responded early with these techniques and have controlled the pandemic within their borders. We didn't do anything in the U.S. until it was out of control.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15624#msg15624)
"Coronavirus lockdowns across the globe should not be completely lifted until a vaccine for the disease is found, according to a study based on China's outbreak published in medical journal The Lancet."
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/09/world/lockdown-lift-vaccine-coronavirus-lancet-intl/index.html

"Lockdowns can't end until Covid-19 vaccine found, study says"
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/08/lockdowns-cant-end-until-covid-19-vaccine-found-study-says

"The minister for patient safety, suicide prevention and mental health [MP Nadine Dorries] tweeted that until a Covid-19 vaccine is developed and made available to the public, society will have to "adapt" to a "full lockdown".

Deb, thanks for the useful collection of links. Public policy in most countries has been to frighten people as much as possible, so it will not be easy to come out of lockdown.

I mentioned Taiwan and New Zealand as success stories. Another is Iceland: https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/testing-iceland-claims-major-success-covid-19-70484165 (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/testing-iceland-claims-major-success-covid-19-70484165)They each responded rapidly with testing, contact tracing, and quarantining those who were carriers. They are each small population island nations, so it was easy to control borders or quarantine visitors. Both New Zealand and Iceland economies depend on tourism, but that was the only economic component that was seriously hurt. It is too late to go back in time and start these policies when they should have been started in countries where the virus got out of control, but it still makes sense to implement the same policies, better late than never.

"Insert image" doesn't seem to be working for me. I snipped a chart showing "Confirmed Covid-19 Deaths per Million People", comparing Sweden, the U.S., Denmark, Norway, and Finland. Contrary to popular belief, Sweden was the worst.

Sweden: ~237
U.S.: ~176
Denmark: ~74
Norway: ~37
Finland: ~37(//)

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15637#msg15637)
Sweden: ~237

Well, well, well.

Hey, I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, and I'm also old enough to not believe everything I read or hear. I have a pretty good BS meter, which becomes refined in times of stress. With that being said, I saw these screen captures of messages on FB today, only looked at maybe a dozen of the 200+ and the theme is the same: deaths are being recorded as CV regardless of whether the patients had CV or not. Not sure what to make of this. If this gal made all of this up, my hat is off to her for her devotion and tenacity, not matter how misguided it may be. I skipped past all of the video links at the top, and clicked on the screen captures below. I looked at the poster's FB page, she seems fairly well educated (according to her), although like a lot of young people I know these days, is not using her degrees. The comments are international. These screen captures are not just from people, they are from news agencies as well.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222005541186008&set=a.10222005538865950&type=3&theater

The page is public, so you don't need to have an account or log in to see it.

Any feelings about these?

Here's the link to the article that had that chart referenced above.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/28/21240381/coronavirus-sweden-death-rate-cases-new-york (https://www.vox.com/2020/4/28/21240381/coronavirus-sweden-death-rate-cases-new-york)

There was another graph that I saw the other day showing an expected range of deaths in the U.S. in a normal year in a gray band (one would expect any year to be within that band) and the severe sharp spike this year overlapping in orange. As with the chart image today that I could not post, I could also not post that. But the clear implication of the graph was that it is reasonable to presume that all of the orange above the gray band is likely to be due to this virus. Deb, if hospitals here are following clear and specific guidelines on how to report cause of death. If they gain additional revenue by false reporting, they will be subject to criminal prosecution. If the reported covid-19 deaths are in line with the additional total deaths, that would indicate that hospitals are following the guidelines. We know, though, that if someone with an underlying condition and has the virus, the virus may trigger a related fatal event. It is reasonable and within the guidelines to designate the death as covid-19 related. Any gray areas of judgement would likely be rare. The point is that if there were a plunge in reported deaths from other causes at the same time as the spike in deaths from the virus, it would lead to suspicion of false reporting, so just that alone could trigger an investigation. And the gov't does go after hospitals suspected of medicare fraud.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15639#msg15639)
The point is that if there were a plunge in reported deaths from other causes at the same time as the spike in deaths from the virus, it would lead to suspicion of false reporting, so just that alone could trigger an investigation. And the gov't does go after hospitals suspected of medicare fraud.

One of the screen captures did say something like that—the government needed to verify money was spent correctly, see attached image.

As far as embedding an image from a news article or website, you'd need to right click on the image and choose Open in New Tab. Once that opens, copy the image's link. You can then click the image tag button above the text box (under the bold B, looks like Mona Lisa?) and paste the link between the open and close img tags.

I actually prefer if people were to do that rather than attach like I'm doing, because a lot of news images are very large and most people don't have software to reduce the file size. This graph was really dimensionally large (3400 pixels wide), so I reduced the width adding width=720 (see the "code" example). You can use the Preview button to see how your image will look ahead of time. Pretty dramatic chart.

[img width=720]https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/l-VOs3M-wp-
VuCgXiLLAKDwL9rs=/0x0:3400x2400/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:3400x2400):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-
cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19932686/total_covid_deaths_per_million.png[/img]

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/l-VOs3M-wp-VuCgXiLLAKDwL9rs=/0x0:3400x2400/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:3400x2400):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19932686/total_covid_deaths_per_million.png)

Just had another thought. Or questions rather. The CDC guidelines for reporting coronavirus deaths says if the patient has not been tested for the virus, but has been in close proximity with someone who is infected, or shows signs of any of the symptoms, it's in the doctor's discretion to attribute the death to corona.

Do you suppose there would be blood samples saved from the deceased persons? So that if there is a question in reporting, the blood can be tested for the virus postmortem? If not, how can those deaths be investigated?

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15641#msg15641)
Do you suppose there would be blood samples saved from the deceased persons? So that if there is a question in reporting, the blood can be tested for the virus postmortem? If not, how can those deaths be investigated?

I expect that some kind of evidence would be saved. It may be that testing of dead bodies is less important than testing of live ones (with limited test availability), but that it could eventually happen if samples were saved. Years ago, the HCA hospital chain was found to have committed the largest Medicare fraud in history, to the tune of over $400 billion. Obviously, there had to be evidence.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15638#msg15638)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222005541186008&set=a.10222005538865950&type=3&theater

The page is public, so you don't need to have an account or log in to see it.

Any feelings about these?

Deb, thanks for that link. I thought it would be worth posting the image here, as it emphaiszes that 99% of those who are said to have died from Covid 19 in Italy had "underlying conditions":

(https://i.ibb.co/VvpjS0d/corona.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLZ6M9d)

Thanks Sena, that says a lot. I wonder if the same is true of the NYC deaths? I should probably go through all 200 of those screen captures and see if it was mentioned.

This is was in this morning's news, it also made national news: https://denver.cbslocal.com/2020/05/14/coronavirus-montezuma-county-coroner-alcohol-poisoning-covid-death/


CORTEZ, Colo. (CBS4) – When police in Cortez, Colorado were called to Cortez City Park early on the morning of May 4, they found Sebastian Yellow, 35, lying on the ground and called it out as a code "Frank," meaning Yellow had died, according to a police report obtained by CBS4.

Within a week, local Montezuma County Coroner George Deavers determined Yellow had died of acute alcohol poisoning, his blood alcohol measured at .55, nearly twice the lethal limit. [secondary cause was cirrohsis of the liver]

But Deavers said that before he even signed the death certificate, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment had already categorized Yellow's death as being due to COVID-19 and it was tabulated that way on the state's website.

"I can see no reason for this", said Deavers.

Yellow's death is the latest in Colorado raising eyebrows over the way the CDPHE is reclassifying deaths that runs contrary to what doctors and coroners initially ruled.

Last month, a CBS4 Investigation revealed the state health department reclassified three deaths at a Centennial nursing home as COVID-19 deaths, despite the fact attending physicians ruled all three were not related to coronavirus.

In each case, the residents had tested positive for COVID-19, but in each case, on-scene doctors ruled the deaths were not related to the virus. Still, in their official tally, the state increased the number of coronavirus deaths at the Someren Glen facility from four to seven, based on the disputed deaths.


I imagine this type of thing is not isolated to one or two small towns in one US state.

The guy who died from alcohol poisoning and cirrhosis of the liver also tested positive for the virus. It almost sounds like suicide. There is no info about what virus-related symptoms he may have been experiencing. The three others mentioned had tested positive as well. All of these followed the CDC guidelines: "The department follows the CDC's case definition of COVID-19 cases and deaths... When a person with a lab-confirmed case of COVID-19 dies, their death is automatically counted as a COVID-19 death unless there is another cause that completely rules out COVID-19 such as a fatal physical injury."

And there's this from the same article:  "However some statisticians, epidemiologists and medical experts, like Dr. Anthony Fauci, have suggested that COVID-19 deaths are likely being undercounted, not over counted. Fauci testified this week before the Senate and was asked if 80,000 deaths from COVID was accurate.

"Most of us feel that the number of deaths are likely higher than that number," said Fauci. He told the Senate, "I don't know exactly what percent higher, but almost certainly it's higher."

I'm not sure what the agenda is of focusing on the fact that most of the deaths are among those with underlying conditions. The fact is, there are far more deaths in this time frame than normal. The fact that the virus either triggers a crisis related to an underlying condition or the underlying condition compromises the immune system enough for the virus to kill them means that there are primary and secondary causes. Whether the virus is primary or secondary, the deaths are virus-related. I can only presume that when someone constantly points out the underlying conditions, they are suggesting that these deaths have nothing to do with the virus. There is probably a tiny minority of cases where that it true. So the argument is, whether it is less than 1% or "99%".

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15646#msg15646)
The guy who died from alcohol poisoning and cirrhosis of the liver also tested positive for the virus. It almost sounds like suicide. There is no info about what virus-related symptoms he may have been experiencing.

There's a lot of info about him that's not in the article, leading to more questions. If he was so sick, why would be be walking around in a park? Why not seek medical attention? Was he  homeless? Did he even know he had the virus? Many people do not have symptoms. Considering he had cirrhosis of the liver at his age (35) badly enough that it was considered a secondary cause of death, he was no stranger to drinking excessive amounts of alcohol. Death by alcohol seems to have been a long-term goal for him. At least 10 years apparently, so I doubt he was self medicating due to the virus.

"It wasn't COVID, it was alcohol toxicity," said Deavers. "Yes, he did have COVID but that is not what took his life."

Why would a coroner stick neck out and challenge the health department? To be so insistent that it was not death due to the virus? He's the one who did the autopsy, he would know the condition of the body. From an article sent by a friend this morning regarding the same case, disrn.com, "A blood-alcohol level of 0.3 is generally considered fatal." His was 0.55.

I honestly think deaths being attributed to the virus are inaccurate, and I really can't see them as being undercounted as Fauci says he "feels." I realize it would be difficult to determine cause of death if, say, someone was old, in the hospital for complications of diabetes (kidney failure or heart disease), develops pneumonia while in the hospital, and then is found to have corona. I wonder if autopsies have been done on all people in situations like that have died, or if it's just easier to call it corona.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15646#msg15646)
When a person with a lab-confirmed case of COVID-19 dies, their death is automatically counted as a COVID-19 death unless there is another cause that completely rules out COVID-19 such as a fatal physical injury.

It seems they're not sticking to that. And the last I read, the CDC also allows deaths to be attributed to the virus in cases where the patient has not even been tested.

Here's very strong evidence that covid-19 deaths are being under-reported in the U.S.: https://www.statista.com/chart/21531/coronavirus-and-excess-us-deaths/ (https://www.statista.com/chart/21531/coronavirus-and-excess-us-deaths/)

Excess deaths = the number beyond what would normally be expected for the time of year (not necessarily attributable to COVID-19).

Reported COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. are only 53% of Excess deaths (March thru April 04).

No, sorry, my belief system is apparently trending in the news right now. Just teasing, sorry.

"Colorado has made a stunning and significant change to the way it counts COVID-19 deaths that reduced the statewide figure from more than 1,000 to 878, according to a report.

"The change came after Colorado's Department of Public Health admitted that its COVID-19 death toll was counting those who tested positive for the coronavirus but had died of other causes, Fox 31 Denver reported late Friday."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-lowers-coronavirus-death-count

We may never know the full truth. All we have to rely on are our instincts.

I'm really looking forward to when this is over.

Quote from: seth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15593#msg15593)
Physically, it is true, but again generally speaking, that your body needs certain nourishments. But within that pattern there is great leeway, and the organism itself has the amazing capacity to make use of substitutes and alternates. The best diet in the world, by anyone's standards, will not keep you healthy if you have a belief in illness.

To get back to our discussion earlier here on food, what we think about it, and the psychology behind villainizing certain foods, this turned up on FB today. I'm constantly amazed at how such old material fits in with what's going on 40+ years later.

Quote from: The Personal Sessions, book 5, Deleted Session November 15, 1978
Now: each body is of course individual, and while there must be similarities in the ways bodies utilize substances, still there are differences - and sometimes the differences can be more than considerable. Not only in the case of a given substance in many bodies, for example, but any given body may utilize any given substance in quite diverse fashions, according to varying circumstances.

The dietary methods given in the book Ruburt read have indeed worked for many, and for the following reasons: as you suspected, a kind of conversion was attained. The people involved, first of all, had been told by doctors - medical doctors - that they themselves had no control over their own disease, that the symptoms could be lessened somewhat - PERHAPS - but that there was no hope for recovery."

They were frightened and angry, their condition such that they were often in constant pain. When they visited the author, however, he was optimistic and brusque. He said "You do indeed have control," and his personal manner was such that he convinced them. Now that was all to the good. They were given hope and thrown back to a feeling of self-reliance.

Now, however, the story becomes trickier. The patients had various beliefs, of course, behind their conditions. Many felt unworthy. Because of this many were unable to express normal aggression. Some were frightened of the world, and so forth. The author gives such people a specific enemy or evil: no more must they be battered with formless fears, but these become gathered together and focused into the dietary area. Unhealthy foods become the villain.

This means that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the person, which many of them have believed THEY are good (as of course they are). The trouble is what they take into their system. Those who are cured are at a certain state when they approach the author, as mentioned earlier, feeling helpless after medical treatments that did not work - feeling that there is something wrong with them. They are in their own eyes "bad" - and in one way or another, that kind of belief was behind the condition, to begin with.

(4:13.) To that degree, the author offers them salvation: "You are good, but the food is bad." The fasting is symbolic, as is the emphasis upon enemas and elimination, for these are meant to flush the impurities from your system.

You are as empty, symbolically, open and vacant, as a newborn child, ready now only to partake of god's pure foods, determined to avoid technology's poisonous effects. You are taking in goodness, then, and becoming better and better. You accept dietary limitations - say a limited environment of food - rather than the limitations earlier felt in motion. The exterior environment opens up. Oftentimes the previously withheld normal aggression now can be legitimately expressed - against the food companies, the technological environment, the medical profession, and so forth.

The cured person becomes a convert to a new way of life. When there are no cures, or patients do not respond, or they slide back into old ways, the doctor-author simply says they are not ready to take the steps necessary, or they have taken them half-heartedly.

And many who are cured, of course, come down with other conditions if they have not succeeded in identifying their own fears sufficiently with the author's.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15654#msg15654)
Quote from: The Personal Sessions, book 5, Deleted Session November 15, 1978

Now: each body is of course individual, and while there must be similarities in the ways bodies utilize substances, still there are differences - and sometimes the differences can be more than considerable. Not only in the case of a given substance in many bodies, for example, but any given body may utilize any given substance in quite diverse fashions, according to varying circumstances.

The dietary methods given in the book Ruburt read have indeed worked for many, and for the following reasons: as you suspected, a kind of conversion was attained. The people involved, first of all, had been told by doctors - medical doctors - that they themselves had no control over their own disease, that the symptoms could be lessened somewhat - PERHAPS - but that there was no hope for recovery."

They were frightened and angry, their condition such that they were often in constant pain. When they visited the author, however, he was optimistic and brusque. He said "You do indeed have control," and his personal manner was such that he convinced them. Now that was all to the good. They were given hope and thrown back to a feeling of self-reliance.

Now, however, the story becomes trickier. The patients had various beliefs, of course, behind their conditions. Many felt unworthy. Because of this many were unable to express normal aggression. Some were frightened of the world, and so forth. The author gives such people a specific enemy or evil: no more must they be battered with formless fears, but these become gathered together and focused into the dietary area. Unhealthy foods become the villain.

This means that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the person, which many of them have believed THEY are good (as of course they are). The trouble is what they take into their system. Those who are cured are at a certain state when they approach the author, as mentioned earlier, feeling helpless after medical treatments that did not work - feeling that there is something wrong with them. They are in their own eyes "bad" - and in one way or another, that kind of belief was behind the condition, to begin with.

(4:13.) To that degree, the author offers them salvation: "You are good, but the food is bad." The fasting is symbolic, as is the emphasis upon enemas and elimination, for these are meant to flush the impurities from your system.

You are as empty, symbolically, open and vacant, as a newborn child, ready now only to partake of god's pure foods, determined to avoid technology's poisonous effects. You are taking in goodness, then, and becoming better and better. You accept dietary limitations - say a limited environment of food - rather than the limitations earlier felt in motion. The exterior environment opens up. Oftentimes the previously withheld normal aggression now can be legitimately expressed - against the food companies, the technological environment, the medical profession, and so forth.

The cured person becomes a convert to a new way of life. When there are no cures, or patients do not respond, or they slide back into old ways, the doctor-author simply says they are not ready to take the steps necessary, or they have taken them half-heartedly.

And many who are cured, of course, come down with other conditions if they have not succeeded in identifying their own fears sufficiently with the author's.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

It seems to me that what Seth is talking about here all comes down to "beliefs".

The people involved initially started out with certain "beliefs" that brought about some sort of unhealthy condition in their lives. As a result of this, they opted to seek out help from a doctor. Then, the doctor tells them that they have no control over their own disease; there is no hope. This is another "belief" that they may have accepted.

Then, they hear about the author. The author "convinces" them that they do indeed have control and as a result of this they are given hope. Some of these people, now change their "beliefs" about what the doctors said (they don't have control over there disease). Of course, this new set of beliefs from the author, may have no effect on their "initial" beliefs that created the symptoms to begin with.

Now, with the author's words in mind, they come to "believe" that there are poisonous foods that they have been eating and this sets up some new beliefs for them. In this new set of belief, some foods are considered to be good and some are bad. In their minds, these bad foods then become the cause of their unhealthy conditions.

The people who are cured, take on a new way of life, and perhaps a new system of beliefs in regards to what foods they eat and what practices they follow. They eat the good foods, they avoid the bad foods and follow the authors practice's because they firmly "believe" in this new set of beliefs. And because they firmly "believe" in it, it works for them.

Those who aren't cured, the author says weren't ready to take on the steps necessary or only did so half-heartedly. This isn't completely true. Neither the doctors nor the author seem to consider the possibility that the main issue hear has to do with the various beliefs that these people carry. If their initial beliefs aren't worked out in some satisfactory manner, they are still likely to cause problems for these people, in one form or another.

Many of the people who are seemingly cured by following the author's suggestions, then come down with something else because their initial beliefs were never sufficiently addressed.




In NOPR, Seth spends so much time talking about our "beliefs" and how they affect us, across all areas of life, including health. Many of these "beliefs" are "conscious beliefs" and Seth tells us that we can identify and change them.

He also warns us that many times, people automatically accept various ideas, as being "universal truths" (things that can't be changed).  We do this without ever realizing that many of these ideas aren't, in fact, universal truths. Instead they're just beliefs, and beliefs can be changed.


- jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15655#msg15655)
It seems to me that what Seth is talking about here all comes down to "beliefs".

Yep, pretty much everything Seth talks about comes down to beliefs. :D

What caught my attention was him saying that since we are individuals, our bodies can and do differently utilize substances—in my mind, food. Medications and supplements as well. So is there more to how our bodies handle substances than belief alone? Or does the "individual" part mean the differences in our beliefs, rather than subtle differences in our bodies, as we are the creators of our bodies? The rest of the text from the session I quoted leans completely in the direction of beliefs.

I also loved his explanation of how certain foods are considered bad in order to be the whipping boy—"person good, food bad" in order to not face feelings of self-blame or inadequacy. Or responsibility. How different civilization would be if everyone read and understood Seth's teachings.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15655#msg15655)
Many of the people who are seemingly cured by following the author's suggestions, then come down with something else because their initial beliefs were never sufficiently addressed.

Precisely, he said that a few times. "Many are cured" — reminded me of modern western medicine treating symptoms, rather than finding the cause of the symptoms to begin with. But where would the profit be in that? It's much more profitable for Big Pharma to treat symptoms—you have a customer for life.

Last night, the Daily Show guest was Madeline Albright. She said that many of the countries that are handling the pandemic well are led by women. From memory, these countries are: Norway, Finland, Denmark, New Zealand, Taiwan, Germany, and I think one more that I can't remember.

Did she have an explanation for why that would be? I can see female leaders (for the most part) handling conflict and war differently than men, but I'm curious about the handling of the pandemic.

"If women ran the world we wouldn't have wars, just intense negotiations every 28 days

~Robin Williams

Lol.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15677#msg15677)
Did she have an explanation for why that would be?

Yes, she did, but I don't remember her answer. Here's the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9WzVFK-ElU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9WzVFK-ElU)

Thanks, this is what she said:

"I think women are really good at multi-tasking because that's what we have to do, which means that we have peripheral vision, that we do care about how decisions are made, that we actually — if you want to put it in these terms — we don't want to divide our children so that one group hates the other. And there are a variety of aspects in terms of how women come to power, which is mostly by trying to be helpful rather than having a lot of ego activity."

Thanks, I certainly agree with what she said as a general rule.

Readers of Seth will be well-advised to not rush into accepting a vaccine. If the vaccine has not been properly tested, it could result in the person who has taken the vaccine getting a more severe attack of the Covid 19 illneess. This is a phenomenon known as antibody-dependent enhancement. Out of the frying pan into the fire:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7311339/

Hi All,

Yes, and here's some of the thoughts that go along with this.



Seth readers know that, "You Create Your Reality".

Some people will dwell upon loving things and as a result of this, they will bring those loving things into their lives. Some people dwell upon fearful things and as a result of this, they will bring those fearful things into their lives. This is the way of reality creation. What you focus on, is what you get.



Seth readers know that "Beliefs" have a very powerful impact on their lives.

Some people can and do achieve great things in their lives because they refuse to accept those limiting beliefs that tell them that they can't do these things.  Some people aren't able to achieve, even the simplest of things in their lives, because they accept those limiting beliefs that tell them that they can't do these things.  This is the way of beliefs. What you believe, is what becomes true for you.



Seth tells us that some people, during the course of their lives, come down with cancer. However, these people are not aware of this cancer and their bodies actually heal the cancerous condition and the cancer goes completely away. How powerful is that? Do you think the same is true for Covid-19?



Some Seth readers, could be vaccinated with a Covid-19 vaccine that was full of the Covid-19 virus, and as a result of the reality that they create for themselves and their beliefs, they would suffer no harmful effects whatsoever.

Some Seth readers, could be vaccinated with a Covid-19 vaccine that was full of nothing more than a saline solution, and as a result of the reality that they create for themselves and their beliefs, they would come down with Covid-19 or maybe even something worse.



Which you?  Which world?  Only you can answer.


-jbseth

I have only just begun listening to this audio, but I thought members might be interested. It's someone called Brian Scott talking about Seth's ideas on pandemics. He is the author of a book, "The Reality Revolution: The Mind-Blowing Movement to Hack Your Reality". I have not read the book. The material in the audio seems to be derived from "The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events":

https://youtu.be/3EoDWu8XZbI

Brian Scott has a website with a number of references to Seth and Jane Roberts:

https://www.therealityrevolution.com/?s=seth