Hi All,
Here's a toughy.
I have a question for you and I'd like to get your answer to it, as well as hear any thoughts you may have on it. This question has to do with what exactly Seth meant when he used the terms "primary construction" and "secondary construction". Unfortunately to give you some background on this question, this message is rather long.
Initially, I thought I understood what Seth meant when he used these 2 terms but the more I've read about it, the more I began to have some doubts. Just recently, I realized that maybe there's some "distortion" in one or more of his messages on this topic.
Here's some background information on this subject.
In the Seth Material, in Chapter 10, the Nature of Reality, in Session 68, Seth talks about how, "Physical objects cannot exist unless they exist in a definite perspective and space continuum." For this session, Bill Macdonnel, a friend of Rob and Jane's was present. Seth refers to Bill as "Mark".
In this session, Jane picked up a glass and Seth referred to this glass, when he said, "None of you sees the glass that the others see.... Each of the three of you creates your own glass, in your own personal perspective. Therefore you have three different physical glasses here, but each one exists in an entirely different space continuum."
Then later in this chapter, in referring to Bill, in the room with Rob, Jane and Willie, their cat, Seth says, "There is a Mark which Mark has created, an actual physical construction. There is another, created by you, Joseph. There are two more physical Marks, one created by Ruburt and one created by your cat. If another person entered the room, there would be still another physical Mark"
"In this room, then, there are four physical Ruburts, four physical Josephs, and four physical cats. There are indeed four rooms."
I've always found this Seth concept to be amazing to say the least.
Basically, this same information is given in "The Early Sessions", Book 2, Session 68. Then in this same book, in Session 69, Seth says the following:
"However, instead of our glasses, please consider a very simple situation: the two of you in this room. Now. Ruburt constructs his own physical image, which is, I hope, obviously conscious. You construct your physical image of Ruburt. Now the question is: What about your construction of Ruburt, which is valid as a material construction. Is it conscious—
("Yes."
(I gave this answer on the spur of the moment.)
—and to what degree? If five people were in this room, then they would each construct, in their own personal perspective, their own image of Ruburt, which would be composed of definite, material, atoms and molecules. You would have five actual physical constructions, plus Ruburt's own. Do all five constructions, plus Ruburt's own, contain Ruburt's consciousness?
Do they contain different consciousnesses, or are they conscious at all?
I am now bringing you to the point of primary and secondary constructions. And with this you may take your break."
Unfortunately, Seth never directly answers these questions that he posed to Rob.
In Session 71 (see below) Seth talks about primary and secondary constructions some more, and then in Session 253 (see below as well) when he talks about Mr. A and his brother, he gives another explanation for these 2 terms which confuses me.
Finally, I believe the only other place, in all of Seth's information, where he talks about these 2 terms exists in "Seth Speaks" Chapter 10, Session 540 (see below as well).
Here's is my question. When Joseph creates Ruburt in Joseph's individual perspective and space continuum, is Ruburt a primary construction or a secondary construction? What do you think?
jbseth
The Early Sessions, Book 2, Session 71:
"I would like to continue our discussion on matter. If you recall, we were entering into primary and secondary constructions.
There are of course many subdivisions here, and also other types of constructions. We will begin however with primary and secondary ones.
A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of itself. Such a primary construction is an attempt to create, in the world of matter, a replica of the inner psychic construction of the whole self.
Such a primary construction allows consciousness to operate, manipulate and be perceived in the world of matter."
"Secondary physical constructions are those created by a consciousness of its conception of other consciousnesses, from data received through telepathy and other means."
"Secondary constructions, being composed of atoms and molecules, contain generalized consciousness and innate capsule comprehension. They do not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self."
"The intertwining of consciousness and matter is most intricate and highly complicated. In all cases consciousness is first, and it forms its physical constructions according to its abilities, first of all forming its own primary construction, and then branching outward, constructing secondary images of other consciousnesses with whom it comes in contact.
The cooperative aspects of consciousness construction forms the whole fabric of your material universe."
The Early Sessions, Book 6, Session 253:
"All systems of reality are created, or constructed, by those who perceive the system. Those who do not construct a system cannot perceive it. Now. There is nothing at all unusual in precognitive experiences. They occur constantly beneath the level of your awareness. However there are certain conditions necessary before precognitions can arise to conscious levels, and there are definite conditions that must exist before what you call apparitions can be perceived.
So-called apparitions, again, are not unusual. They are more or less constant. Many of these apparitions exist in their own system whether or not you perceive them. Some apparitions are constructed by the perceiver and are basically caused by a telepathic communication. But all apparitions are not of this nature. All apparitions however, to appear as or within the physical system, must be constructed by the perceiver in the same manner that all physical objects are constructed.
This does not mean that apparitions are only the result of such construction on the part of the perceiver. The perceiver constructs the pseudomaterial apparition as he constructs the physical image of his contemporaries, but in, or rather and in line with telepathic data that is received by or from the consciousness whose material image is being constructed.
You recall we spoke of primary and secondary physical constructions. These classifications apply regardless of the basic nature of the consciousness that is to be materially formed. An apparition constructed as a result of telepathic data, picked up by the perceiver in message form, will be constructed by him in precisely the same manner that an apparition will be constructed that is a reflection of a survival personality.
The difference is not in construction, for the methods of construction are the same. For example, Mr. A in his bedroom telepathically picks up the thought of his brother many miles distant. Now. If he merely picks up his brother's thought, and the thought is, quote: "I am dying. I wish I could say goodbye to my brother," then the receiver of the message could form the apparition of the dying brother, and then perceive it in his bedroom.
This would be a secondary construction. If however the dying brother made an out-of-body journey before or after death, for a last visit, then the receiver would still have to construct the apparition himself in order to perceive it. But in this case we would have a primary construction."
Seth Speaks, Chapter 10, Session 540:
"(9:55.) All of these forms are called secondary constructions, for as a rule full consciousness of the personality is not in them. They are automatic projections.
Now, in primary constructions, a consciousness, usually fully aware and alert, adopts a form — not his "native" one — and consciously projects it, often into another level of reality. Even this is a rather complicated endeavor, and one seldom used for purposes of communication."
jbseth,
It seems to me that Seth, as interpreted by Jane and Rob, can get a bit theoretical at times. Neville Goddard is more down-to-earth. I have found that if I try to "feel my wish fulfilled", I often get something close to what I regard as the ideal result.
Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=11535#msg11535)
Initially, I thought I understood what Seth meant when he used these 2 terms but the more I've read about it, the more I began to have some doubts. Just recently, I realized that maybe there's some "distortion" in one or more of his messages on this topic.
Wow this is a new one to me. It's hard enough to keep track of probable selves, counterparts, thought forms, splinters... now primary and secondary constructions.
Initially I thought I was getting it: I am the consciousness that creates my physical body, a primary construction created by consciousness. Other people have to pick up telepathically my transmitted version of myself and build their own version to actually see me—secondary construction. Simple.
But then I came to the part where Seth mentions the dying brother saying "but in this case we would have a primary construction." That threw me for a loop.
I quickly read through this but will be traveling today so have made a copy to read on the plane. I'll be back....
Hi Jbseth,
This is a good one :) i will throw in my thoughts
Primary construction : our basic construction mode. Home perceptual station.
Secondary construction : Either done intentionally or accidentally. If done intentionally : possible uses, to check out another place or person without sending our physical body. Also a conscious deliberate act.
There's a metaphysical author I like, Stuart Wilde. He writes very short books, gets to the point quickly.
One time he was saying that, there will be an energy, most people will define it as a tree, it's first and foremost just an energy, it's your perceptive mechanisms that define it as a tree, or a wise red Indian chief :)
So my take on that, combined with Seth, on this question, is that we each are literally creating our own world, and all the people and objects in that world. I guess all creation would be subjective as well. As in the question to Joseph, does the Jane he has created have a conscious? I don't know, Does Joseph recognize/create her as having one ??!! Hahaha!!
Which brings up an interesting question to me. What if someone is more than the others around him/her have the ability to recognize and create/recreate?!
Just how far does telepathy go? Is it a case of 100th monkey syndrome? If a energy is perceived and then cast into an image by multiple people, or rather the interpretation of that energy, are they perceiving it correctly and in its complete form??!!
And could someone intentionally send emit a signal that's actually different than what will be perceived ?
By the way, I just woke up, so kindly keep that in mind :)
Hi All,
Thanks for your comments so far.
I can see how these two terms, "primary and secondary constructions", might possibly be applied using at least 2 different schemes. To explain what I mean by this, let's say that Rob, Jane, and a glass were the only 3 items located in a room.
In Scheme 1, Rob creates a room where Rob is a primary construction and then Rob creates Jane and the glass, which are secondary constructions. Along with this, also in Scheme 1, Jane also creates a room where Jane is a primary construction and then Jane creates Rob and the glass, which are secondary constructions.
Here in Scheme 1, when each person creates their own perspective and space continuum, they are the primary construction and everything else is a secondary construction.
This first scheme, Scheme 1, is what I thought Seth initially meant when I first came across this concept. However after thinking about his comments in regards to Mr. A and is dying brother, I think that maybe Seth didn't actually mean Scheme 1; maybe he meant something like Scheme 2 below.
In Scheme 2, Rob creates a room where Rob creates both Rob and Jane, which are both primary constructions, and then Rob creates a glass, which is a secondary construction. Along with this, also in Scheme 2, Jane also creates a room where Jane creates both Jane and Rob, which are both primary constructions, and then Jane creates a glass, which is a secondary construction.
Here in Scheme 2, when each person creates their own perspective and space continuum, all self-aware consciousnesses are primary constructions and everything else is a secondary construction.
Unfortunately, I'm not really sure that what Seth actually meant was Scheme 2 either.
Perhaps there was a distortion in the information on this topic, when it was transmitted between Seth, Jane, and Rob, or maybe somewhere Rob or Jane or the publisher made some typo's in the text.
jbseth
Hi Jbseth,
Your scheme 1 and 2 makes sense to me :)
Greetings from Washington State. My internet is week and unstable, so hopefully I get this posted. The wild blackberries are ripe here, I've been foraging. :) So, the definitions:
"A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of itself. Such a primary construction is an attempt to create, in the world of matter, a replica of the inner psychic construction of the whole self.
Such a primary construction allows consciousness to operate, manipulate and be perceived in the world of matter."
"Secondary physical constructions are those created by a consciousness of its conception of other consciousnesses, from data received through telepathy and other means.
"Secondary constructions, being composed of atoms and molecules, contain generalized consciousness and innate capsule comprehension. They do not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self."
Up to this point, I'd been interpreting Seth's explanation of several different glasses, coffee tables, people as not being literal, i.e. our individual perception of the same object is different. But with him saying there would be multiple simultaneously existing objects... wow. And for each one of them to have some sort of consciousness — well if they are each composed of definite, material atoms and molecules then they would have to have consciousness, since every thing is conscious, being made initially with CUs. Now I want to know the differences in the consciousness of primary and secondary.
Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=11535#msg11535)
Here's is my question. When Joseph creates Ruburt in Joseph's individual perspective and space continuum, is Ruburt a primary construction or a secondary construction? What do you think?
According to the definitions above, secondary, since primary is "formed into matter by a consciousness of itself." And this "In all cases consciousness is first, and it forms its physical constructions according to its abilities, first of all forming its own primary construction, and then branching outward, constructing secondary images of other consciousnesses with whom it comes in contact."
I vote for Scheme 2.
But I still don't understand this:
"If however the dying brother made an out-of-body journey before or after death, for a last visit, then the receiver would still have to construct the apparition himself in order to perceive it. But in this case we would have a primary construction."
Try as I might, I still can't come to this conclusion in light of this definition provided by Seth: "A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of itself." Since the dying brother is having an OBE, there is no "physical body" involved in the contact. By telepathic contact, the dying brother would communicate with the living brother outside the material world. Even if he created an image of a ghost, I would think it would be secondary since "A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of
itself." The dying brother's body would technically "formed into matter" and located elsewhere (wherever his body located), that would be the primary construction.
I think you found a conundrum. Or a distortion or typo. Maybe we need to get Ron Card involved. :)
Hi Deb,
I see you get my confusion on this concept. Thanks for your reply.
I wonder what Ron would say about this.
I don't have copies of any of the Early Class Session books or all of the Personal Session books.
I suppose it's possible that Seth cleared this issue up somewhere else along the line.
Otherwise maybe we're left with a great unknown and maybe Seth left it like this on purpose so that people would have to search their own inner selves, to determine their answer. :)
jbseth
Hi All,
Hey, I just saw something that might be the answer to this question. This has to do with the definitions that Seth used for the various constructions, which I've once again repeated at the bottom of this reply. Notice here that I've highlighted some of the words in these definitions that are pertinent to this potential answer.
Here`s what I think might be going on with these constructions. Let's take a look at the situation where Rob creates a room where only Rob, Jane and a glass exist in the room. When Rob, creates Rob, in this room, this is a primary construction, given Seth's definition of a primary construction.
However, when Rob creates Jane, in this room, this can't be a secondary construction. Why? Because, secondary constructions, "do not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self.", and Jane does contains these things.
So, when Rob creates Jane, what kind of construction is this? Perhaps, this is what Seth was referring to when he mentioned that there were many subdivisions and other types of construction in his definitions below. I think this kind of construction must have been some sort or subdivision or other type of construction.
Finally, when Rob creates the glass in the room, this is a secondary construction because a glass, "does not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self."
What do you think, does this make sense?
Seth's Definitions of Constructions:
"I would like to continue our discussion on matter. If you recall, we were entering into primary and secondary constructions.
There are of course many subdivisions here, and also other types of constructions. We will begin however with primary and secondary ones.
A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of itself. Such a primary construction is an attempt to create, in the world of matter, a replica of the inner psychic construction of the whole self.
Such a primary construction allows consciousness to operate, manipulate and be perceived in the world of matter."
"Secondary physical constructions are those created by a consciousness of its conception of other consciousnesses, from data received through telepathy and other means."
"Secondary constructions, being composed of atoms and molecules, contain generalized consciousness and innate capsule comprehension. They do not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self."
jbseth
Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=11554#msg11554)
However, when Rob creates Jane, in this room, this can't be a secondary construction. Why? Because, secondary constructions, "do not contain the unifying, integrating, organizing, personal direction of a whole self.", and Jane does contains these things.
jbseth,
I don't accept that we create other people. It was Jane's consciousness, not anybody else's consciousness, which created Jane.
How I understand "create your own reality" is that we create EVENTS. I don't think anyone can create a ton of gold, but it may be possible to discover a gold deposit.
Hi Sena,
I understand; you don't accept that we create other people. That's OK with me.
I'm not asking anyone to accept what I say or to accept what Seth says. I'm just trying to figure out, given Seth's explanation of how reality works, how his reality creation construction concept would actually work given his definitions of primary and secondary constructions.
From what I can see, it appears to me that what Seth says about people creating people and what you believe about this are different.
In "The Early Sessions", Book 2, Session 68, Page 211, Seth says:
"There is the Mark which Mark has created, an actual physical construction. There is another Mark does not see, and this Mark is an actual physical construction created by you. There are at this time still two more physical Marks, one created by Ruburt, and one created by your cat.
If another person entered the room, there would still be another physical Mark.
In this room, so to speak, there are four physical Ruburts, there are four physical Josephs, and there are four physical cats. There are indeed four rooms."
In "The Seth Material", Chapter 10, The Nature of Physical Reality, it says:
"There is the Mark which Mark has created, an actual physical construction. There is another, created by you, Joseph. There are two more physical Marks, one created by Ruburt, and one created by your cat. If another person entered the room, there would be still another physical Mark.
"In this room, then, there are four physical Ruburts, four physical and four physical cats. There are indeed four rooms."
The way I interpret what Seth is saying here is that, one Mark, was created by Mark, one Mark, was created by Joseph, one Mark, was created by Ruburt and one Mark, was created by the cat. Furthermore, as I understand it, there are actually 4 rooms, each containing one Mark, one Joseph, one Ruburt and one cat.
Again, I'm not saying that anyone has to believe this, but I do believe that this is what Seth is saying here; when we each create our reality, we also create the other people.
jbseth