~Speaking of Seth~

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/coronavirus-projections-falling-trump-strategy-working-dr-nan-hayworth

"Projections for the eventual U.S. death toll from COVID-19 have fallen sharply, a testament to the success of a combination of aggressive measures, most notably stringent social distancing, that have been undertaken throughout the country.

This wonderful news is a reminder that Americans can make miracles happen — thanks to their own determination, and to the tireless leadership of a president with remarkable foresight who's assembled a team of the world's best experts to guide and facilitate our response to the pandemic.

The first major blow against the disease was struck by President Trump in January when he imposed restrictions on travel from China. This decisive step has been credited with sparing millions of Americans from exposure to the virus, buying crucial time we needed to delay the wave of severe illness now familiarly known as the "curve."

It's been estimated that without any mitigation efforts by either state or federal governments, up to 2.2 million Americans would have died from COVID-19. President Trump's travel restrictions on China were joined subsequently by bans on travel from Europe, the United Kingdom and Ireland, further limiting the introduction of the novel coronavirus from abroad.

Based on the best evidence and analysis to date, in mid-March, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) warned that COVID-19 could kill up to 1.7 million people in the U.S. A model developed around the same time by the Council on Foreign Relations and Resolve to Save Lives predicted that between 163,500 and 1.6 million Americans could die from the pandemic, on the assumption that about 50 percent of our population would contract the disease.

To maximize the nation's precautions against reaching such a peak on the coronavirus curve, President Trump and his team announced: "15 days to slow the spread."

By April 1, the aggressive multifaceted attack against COVID-19 at the federal and state levels had moved the worst-case predictions downward: the White House announced that the U.S. could expect between 100,000 and 240,000 coronavirus-related deaths by the end of the outbreak. Wisely, the president extended social distancing guidelines for another 30 days.

Further progress was evinced on April 7, when projected mortality fell significantly in a widely respected model from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME), to between 49,431 and 136,401 American coronavirus deaths, with a median of just over 80,000. A day later the IHME's median was adjusted downward again, to about 60,000.

The first couple of weeks of April have also demonstrated how rapidly our health care providers have adapted both outpatient and inpatient care according to clinical experience with COVID-19. Recent reports show coronavirus hospitalizations across the U.S. to be far lower than expected, with a notable days-long fall in new hospitalizations in New York, where the pandemic has struck hardest. The state now projects a need for roughly 20,000 to 30,000 beds, compared with the 110,000 that Gov. Andrew Cuomo had previously said would be needed.

As President Trump has rightly noted, the death toll from COVID-19 is a figure that no one could ever be happy about. It is also true that every life spared as we "crush the curve" is a miracle worth celebrating — as is the extraordinary partnership among government, enterprise and our citizens to fight a crisis of unprecedented magnitude and speed, an effort the president has led ever since news of the virus first emerged on the world scene."

Thanks for this Sena, the op-ed sounds positive and I hope it's right.

It's really difficult to know what the right thing to do is as this virus is unique. There's no way to predict what will happen until we know more about it. Then the "right" thing to do will be hindsight, with loads of criticism for those who chose the "wrong" thing to do. Our countries' leaders are not omniscient gods, they can't know everything about everything and have to rely on specialized advisors and world organizations that are hopefully on the up-and-up.

The Chinese government has been no help: secretive and untruthful in reporting on the virus from day one. Doctors who reported the virus early on have been disappeared. Offers from other countries to help with research were refused. China has cracked down even more (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/12/asia/china-coronavirus-research-restrictions-intl-hnk/index.html) on virus information, scrutinizing and preventing research from being published, evicting foreign reporters from China, and lying about stats.

The article you put up the other day from the Boston Globe makes a lot of sense to me, herd immunity, in that trying to mitigate the damages by social distancing, wearing masks and gloves may just be delaying the inevitable. How do we know? Who wants to take that chance? Countries are trying different ways to deal with the virus, so their results will give us an idea of what's the better option. At least at this point we have several drugs that appear to have potential. A friend brought up a good point (I thought) today, in that in the not-too-distant-future we will have a vaccine. Everyone will be tested for antibodies by then. Those who do not have antibodies will have access to the vaccine.

I saw an article the other day suggesting the virus started earlier than reported. In California, as early as December, but doctors were attributing sickesses to an unusually bad flu season. But those that were sick are testing positive to antibodies for the virus. I have a good friend who was very sick around Christmas. She had visited an aunt in California, came down with the flu afterwards, and it turned into pneumonia. But she recovered at home. Now I'm wondering if she had corona. In California they are now testing for antibodies from blood donated back in Nov and Dec.

There are of course stories of people testing positive for the antibodies who never had symptoms. I think (and this is an uneducated guess) that the majority of people have strong enough immune systems that they can be exposed and their body overcomes the virus naturally. As Seth says, you cannot [completely] eradicate a virus.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15148#msg15148)
The article you put up the other day from the Boston Globe makes a lot of sense to me, herd immunity, in that trying to mitigate the damages by social distancing, wearing masks and gloves may just be delaying the inevitable.

Deb, I agree that social distancing is necessary for a limited period of time to prevent the health services becoimng overwhelmed. But if the lockup is continued for too lond, that will be bad for peoples' mental, physical and economic health.

QuoteIn the US, for example, twice as many men have been dying from the virus as women. Similarly, 69% of all coronavirus deaths across Western Europe have been male. Similar patterns have been seen in China and elsewhere.

Yes, that is the likely scenario. Hope the vaccine will not have bad side-effects like causing brain damage.

This article in the National Review explains the reasoning behind Trump's decision to stop funding W.H.O.:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/04/coronavirus-pandemic-world-health-organization-failed/

"The World Health Organization (WHO)  has been credited with the eradication of smallpox and the near eradication of other devastating illnesses, including leprosy and river blindness.
This record of success makes the current corruption of the organization all the more shameful.
On December 30, Chinese doctor Li Wenliang warned colleagues about the outbreak of an illness resembling severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), which sparked a pandemic in 2003. Public-health officials rely on the acuity of doctors like Li, whose early warnings prevent the spread of deadly diseases. But Chinese authorities didn't reward Li; they summoned him to the Public Security Bureau in Wuhan on accusations that he had made false statements and disrupted the public order.
The Chinese Communist Party (CCP) followed up with numerous other arrests, and publicly warned that it would punish anyone spreading "rumors" on social media. By mid January, Chinese doctors knew that COVID-19 was spreading between humans, but on January 14, the WHO stated that there was "no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel coronavirus." Two weeks later, WHO director-general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus flew to Beijing for a meeting with Chinese president Xi Jinping, who so impressed Tedros that he lauded Chinese authorities for "setting a new standard for outbreak control," praising their "openness for sharing information."
Dr. Li might have disagreed with that sentiment. Alas, he was never able to voice his objections: He died after contracting COVID-19.

When the WHO emergency committee discussed whether to declare COVID-19 a public-health emergency on January 23, international observers had definitively discredited Chinese health data. Yet Tedros relied on those data in arguing against declaring an emergency — over the objections of other committee members. That decision delayed the mobilization of public-health resources around the world. John Mackenzie, a committee member, attributed the delay to "very poor reporting" and "very poor communication" from the CCP. After finally declaring an emergency on January 30, Tedros continued to lavish praise on China. As late as February 20, he argued that Chinese actions were "slowing the spread [of coronavirus] to the rest of the world."
When President Trump limited travel from China to the U.S. on January 31 — a decision that bought the U.S. precious time — Tedros said it would "have the effect of increasing fear and stigma, with little public health benefit."
The record is clear: The WHO has lent its imprimatur to Chinese disinformation and blessed China's slow response to its domestic outbreak, which likely caused a 20-fold increase in cases, according to a University of Southampton study.
The Chinese government must believe they have invested very wisely. They backed Tedros's bid to run the WHO in 2017, seeking to plant an ally in the U.N. leadership. Who was better suited for the role than a leftist political operative with a history of covering up health emergencies? As one of his first actions at the helm, Tedros assured the Chinese that he would adhere to the "One China" policy, barring Taiwanese participation. The Trump administration opposed Tedros's campaign to lead the organization but couldn't surmount China's sway.
China's influence over the WHO comes at a bargain price: Beijing only contributes half as much as the U.S. does to the WHO's budget."

Regarding the first post in this thread: At least two of us have had our wrists slapped when we posted comments that were critical of Trump. I took that as meaning that there should be NO political discussion here, and I accepted that. But apparently, I was wrong: posts that praise Trump are allowed, just not posts that are critical of him? If we want to avoid political controversy, then any posts of a political nature should not be allowed. Deb, I would appreciate clarification on this.

Thanks Larry, I was waiting to see what happened because Sena posted a non-inflammatory article and made no comment himself. This one is not an easy call, because I felt it was border-line political based solely on the title of the topic, which I don't feel is accurate anyway. I responded to it as a topic on the handling of the coronavirus in America.

Members, if you feel this topic is politically argumentative and/or inflammatory, let me know and I will retire the topic or remove the first post and/or change the title of the topic. I feel there's enough stress right now and want to keep the forum as neutral as possible.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Actually I don't know that there is any way to handle this situation "fairly" and that's always a problem when dealing with people and their opinions, on any subject.

In my own personal life, the two major subjects that seem to create the biggest controversy between most people are politics and religion/philosophy. And here we are, a forum that talks about Seth.  :)

I definitely understand your desire to limit major "blow-ups" between people in this forum and I do agree very much with you on this.

I've been in a forum where the forum admin just about allowed everything under the sun in a "freedom of speech" guise. The amount of bullying, hatred and down-right nastiness that took place in that forum was very ugly. It was so bad, that I only went to it a few times and then from then on avoided it as it was just so ugly that it wasn't a fun place to be. Generally, I try to keep my psyche up, and positive, as much as possible, but unfortunately, I don't always do as good of a job at it as I'd like to. In regards to this particular forum, the ugliness was too bad, because the forum itself had some very interesting topics, UFO's, psychic's, etc.

On the other hand, I've also been in another similar forum where the admin absolutely wouldn't allow any comments or thoughts that didn't line up with her very specific and unique viewpoint on things. This limiting of speech amounted to this forum just being a bunch of yes-men that only said what she allowed them to say. After awhile, this forum got extremely boring, as no creativity of ideas were allowed or expressed.

Deb, by far, you are the fairest admin that I've ever come across on the internet and I really want to make sure that you hear this from me.

Now, when I first saw the topic for this subject, I was tempted to make a post about how President Trump was absolutely the last person, who's advice I would ever seek in regards to something so important as the coronavirus. But I opted not to post anything about this, as I thought that it may cause some controversy.

Unfortunately, I don't have an answer here for you Deb.

If you let just about everything be said, then you run the risk of ending up like the first forum, I mentioned above. On the other hand, if you limit almost every subject, you run the risk of ending up like the other forum I mentioned.

Something that I think other people may not see, is just how much time it actually takes to be the forum admin, to keep people from having big "blow ups", how hard that is on you and how much that really isn't fun at all.

Regardless of what you decide to do here, if you come to the conclusion that you'll never be able to make us all happy, all of the time, then I believe you are actually viewing this situation correctly.

I think that its way more important that we have a Seth forum than none at all, and I do understand that one of your options here, is to shut this forum down.

I'll support you, on whatever you decide to do here Deb.

- jbseth

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15157#msg15157)
...Sena posted a non-inflammatory article...

The problem is, the source, Fox News, is well-known for its political bias, and the opinion piece ignores massive evidence that contradicts its claims of Trump's performance. As such, it cannot be considered non-inflammatory by those who are aware of that easily available evidence, which is largely based in fact, not opinion. If you do choose to delete that post, it would make sense for you to delete this one as well.

Deb, sorry if I have caused problems. If you wish to delete the thread, I shall understand. In my defence, I would say that the coronavirus is one of the really big "mass events" of the 20th and 21st centuries, up there with the two world wars. We know that Seth and Jane Roberts wrote a whole book on mass events, so it is clearly a Sethian topic. If the political aspects of the coronavirus are deemed to be taboo on this forum, I think that will put us at a disadvantage in trying to understand the application of Seth's ideas to what is happening to the human race at present.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15160#msg15160)
Now, when I first saw the topic for this subject, I was tempted to make a post about how President Trump was absolutely the last person, who's advice I would ever seek in regards to something so important as the coronavirus.

jbseth, I see Trump as a significant character in this drama. While I want to make it absolutely clear that I am not comparing Trump to Churchill, I would like to draw your attention to the idea that Churchill was a reincarnation of the ancient Greek statesman Pericles. There is said to have been a facial resemblancs between Churchill and Pericles:

https://tinyurl.com/churchill-pericles

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15161#msg15161)
The problem is, the source, Fox News, is well-known for its political bias, and the opinion piece ignores massive evidence that contradicts its claims of Trump's performance. As such, it cannot be considered non-inflammatory by those who are aware of that easily available evidence, which is largely based in fact, not opinion.

So you're saying that it's only because it's from Fox News that it should be considered inflammatory? So do you think I should ban all quotes or links from Fox? If that's the case, would you say there are any news sources that are NOT politically biased on one side or another? If none, do I just tell people they can only quote from the Seth materials? I can understand your issue with an op-ed because it's an opinion and authors generally do not substantiate what they say. And everyone has an opinion.

For me, "inflammatory" comes from content, words intended to incite anger and hatred towards others. Like this: "A form of speech that is used with the intent to stir up emotions, elicit anger, or invoke a physical reaction. Name calling is one form, but the use is generally wider in scope, in the sense that it is used to attack, oppress, or denigrate groups of people, or focus hate or anger on a public figure."

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15160#msg15160)
If you let just about everything be said, then you run the risk of ending up like the first forum, I mentioned above. On the other hand, if you limit almost every subject, you run the risk of ending up like the other forum I mentioned.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't, right? Seems like the Devil would be the only winner here. Thanks for your thoughtful input jbseth. Yes there are times when I feel like maybe I'm just not cut out for this "job" and consider that the forum has outlived it's purpose. "If it's not fun, stop doing it." It's fun most of the time. And I think about the people here that get along and I don't want to deprive the majority of an outlet (myself included) because of the bumps in the road.

When I started this forum I had no idea that I'd be trying to put out fires. I thought, we all have Seth in common, we would be on the same wavelength, what could possibly go wrong?

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15162#msg15162)
Deb, sorry if I have caused problems. If you wish to delete the thread, I shall understand. In my defence, I would say that the coronavirus is one of the really big "mass events" of the 20th and 21st centuries, up there with the two world wars. We know that Seth and Jane Roberts wrote a whole book on mass events, so it is clearly a Sethian topic. If the political aspects of the coronavirus are deemed to be taboo on this forum, I think that will put us at a disadvantage in trying to understand the application of Seth's ideas to what is happening to the human race at present.

It's a tough call for me, because Sena does have a good point: the virus is a big deal and we are all (us and everyone else on the planet) trying to figure this thing out, what the right decisions are to make to keep damages as low as possible. Every country is winging it, with no prior experience with this particular virus. I think it is possible for us to share information on what's going on in various places in the world, who is trying or doing what, and what the results are, without making it political (meaning, without denigrating or name calling of any political figures, dangerous grounds these days). Such as with the first post in this topic, if someone sees something quoted that is obviously inaccurate and you know it, and it means enough to you, is it possible to just point that out, tactfully and without anger, with a link or quote? 

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15165#msg15165)
So you're saying that it's only because it's from Fox News that it should be considered inflammatory? So do you think I should ban all quotes or links from Fox?

No, the fact that it is from Fox does not in itself make it inflammatory. The content (or lack of relevant opposing facts) makes it highly misleading, though.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15165#msg15165)
Such as with the first post in this topic, if someone sees something quoted that is obviously inaccurate and you know it, and it means enough to you, is it possible to just point that out, tactfully and without anger, with a link or quote?

I considered posting a link, the content consisting exclusively of a video of Trump saying stuff and when he said it, that completely contradicts the conclusions of the opinion piece. But I decided not to do that, because his own words denigrate him, and I might be blamed for denigrating him. It's a slippery slope. Someone gets offended.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15162#msg15162)
If the political aspects of the coronavirus are deemed to be taboo on this forum, I think that will put us at a disadvantage in trying to understand the application of Seth's ideas to what is happening to the human race at present.

I'm the noob there so have limited standing with the group but I'd like to give my 2 cents.

I'm with Sena on this one, and in my personal opinion, free speech trumps everything. Bickering and name calling as I've seen on other forums I suspect has something to do with the ego getting in the way and not taking a moment to stop and reflect and how to steer the conversation. If civility can't be maintained then by all means bring on the ban hammer... or maybe just give a time-out to those involved.

Deb, I appreciate this forum, I have found gobs of material in the short time I've been here, and have spent hours reading through old posts which has resulted in more reading I have to do...ugh.

My brother and I have had a lively email discussion for a week now discussing the pandemic. He loves Trump (I hear). We have no problem discussing everything about the pandemic without touching on politics.

By the way, today I found out that my last manager (before I retired 3 years ago) was laid off last month and now has the virus at age 60. I presume he no longer has health insurance.

Look, in all honesty I didn't feel Sena put that first article up to make a political statement or to make Trump look good. From little comments of his in the past, I'm pretty sure he doesn't even like Trump. I think Sena is looking for information on the virus just like the rest of us and thought the opinion covered things that have been done here in the US over the past few months. But I'll leave that to him.

Since the op-ed was not written by Trump, I thought the title of this topic was a bit misleading so I would like to change it, I just don't know at this point to what. Understanding Coronavirus...? Unless someone else can come up with a title that is more fitting. We'll be seeing the title of this topic repeated over and over if this topic becomes popular, it would probably be better if it were broad and more neutral.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15152#msg15152)
In the US, for example, twice as many men have been dying from the virus as women. Similarly, 69% of all coronavirus deaths across Western Europe have been male. Similar patterns have been seen in China and elsewhere.

Sena, that's the first I'd heard of that. I did some searching and came up with quite a few articles, this is just one that caught my eye. I don't know this news source, but it seems most of the articles start off the same way so they are mostly repeating whatever the original was, which is typical.

https://www.vox.com/2020/4/9/21215063/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-men-women-sex-dying-why

"One key piece of context for these questions is that there are, in general, a variety of key biological differences in the way men and women fight off infections. Women, for example, tend to mount a stronger immune response. Researchers think this is in part because most women have two X chromosomes, and the X chromosome happens to contain most of the genes related to the immune system (and those with two X chromosomes instead of one also have a wider diversity of immune responses). This extra immune functioning, however, also seems to put women more at risk for autoimmune diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn's disease."

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15168#msg15168)
I considered posting a link, the content consisting exclusively of a video of Trump saying stuff and when he said it, that completely contradicts the conclusions of the opinion piece. But I decided not to do that, because his own words denigrate him, and I might be blamed for denigrating him. It's a slippery slope. Someone gets offended.

I appreciate your restraint, I was thinking more along the lines of simply providing accurate data if something presented is inaccurate. I think most people prefer and appreciate accuracy.

Quote from: yphen (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15169#msg15169)
I'm with Sena on this one, and in my personal opinion, free speech trumps everything. Bickering and name calling as I've seen on other forums I suspect has something to do with the ego getting in the way and not taking a moment to stop and reflect and how to steer the conversation. If civility can't be maintained then by all means bring on the ban hammer... or maybe just give a time-out to those involved.

Thanks, for the input yphen. I think this was just a misunderstanding and I feel we can move beyond that and continue our quest for figuring out what the hell is going on with this pandemic.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15171#msg15171)
My brother and I have had a lively email discussion for a week now discussing the pandemic. He loves Trump (I hear). We have no problem discussing everything about the pandemic without touching on politics.

So it is possible. Glad to know that.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15171#msg15171)
By the way, today I found out that my last manager (before I retired 3 years ago) was laid off last month and now has the virus at age 60. I presume he no longer has health insurance.

Oh no! Hopefully he retained his insurance with COBRA. It seems people have very different experiences with virus symptoms, I hope he will be one of those who has lesser symptoms. My friend that we (she and I) think she had the virus over Christmas was absolutely miserable for a couple of weeks, but only contacted her doctor at the end when she was having some tightness in her chest. She recovered at home and is fine now. She's 64, is a teacher so gets flu shots every year (if you saw narvik2's post today, it seems flu shots increase corona risk).

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15172#msg15172)
...it seems flu shots increase corona risk...

Yes, that's interesting and contradicts expert advice that I heard last night (but the experts are still learning, too). It brings up the question of pneumonia vaccines, because I understand that most of the C-19 deaths are because pneumonia sets in.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15172#msg15172)
"One key piece of context for these questions is that there are, in general, a variety of key biological differences in the way men and women fight off infections. Women, for example, tend to mount a stronger immune response. Researchers think this is in part because most women have two X chromosomes, and the X chromosome happens to contain most of the genes related to the immune system (and those with two X chromosomes instead of one also have a wider diversity of immune responses). This extra immune functioning, however, also seems to put women more at risk for autoimmune diseases, such as rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn's disease."

Deb, this is quite interesting. My wife and her sister suffer from rheumatoid arthritis. We know of course that Jane Roberts had a severe form of the disease. I remember as a child going to visit a great-aunt of mine who was bed-ridden with arthritis (in those days treatment was not very effective). So women have "stronger" immune systems which help them to fight off the virus.

This links to an opinion piece written by two epidemiologists. In part:

"On March 16, the White House issued initial social distancing guidelines, including closing schools and avoiding groups of more than 10. But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country. The effect would have been substantial had the policies been imposed even one week earlier, on March 9, resulting in approximately a 60 percent reduction in deaths."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/opinion/covid-social-distancing.html)

I do not recall if various states had implemented the guidelines before the White House issued them, but they likely had access to the same information, including what other countries had done to minimize deaths. So governors may share the blame.

https://sethcenter.com/ (https://sethcenter.com/) is hosting a Free Webinar series entitled Empower Yourself During COVID-19 with Seth and the Law of Attraction. The first of four webinars has already occurred, but if you sign up, you can access the recorded webinar. I have not listened yet.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15186#msg15186)
But an estimated 90 percent of the cumulative deaths in the United States from Covid-19, at least from the first wave of the epidemic, might have been prevented by putting social distancing policies into effect two weeks earlier, on March 2, when there were only 11 deaths in the entire country.

Larry, it is true that some deaths could have been prevented, but at the cost of having less immune people, so more deaths in the second wave when the restrictions are eventually lifted.

I was listening to YouTube this morning while sewing some masks (!) and accidentally came across this one "Questioning Conventional Wisdom in the COVID-19 Crisis" with Dr. Jay Bhattacharya (https://profiles.stanford.edu/jay-bhattacharya). It has a lot of information in it and I listened to it twice. I'd never heard of him before, but see he's been in the news a few times over the past few months. I've also never heard of the interviewer before, YouTube just auto played this for me. Dr. B is a professor of medicine at Stanford University and is also well versed in Economics (you can see more about his qualifications if you click through to watch this on YouTube). Very well spoken, very clear and easy to listen to (very likable), he understands the medical as well as economic effects of the virus. He brought up a lot of great points. The interview mentions his March 24 article in the Wall Street Journal, but WSJ is a paid-subscriber site so I could only read the first few sentences. Here's the link if anyone here has a membership: https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-the-coronavirus-as-deadly-as-they-say-11585088464 If someone does, if they could copy & paste it on the forum I'd really appreciate it.

Dr. B also talks about why it's been so difficult to accurately calculate the number of infections and mortality rates and therefore make decisions based on the numbers. Towards the end talks about the antibody tests that were just about to start in California when this interview took place at the end of March.

Then, son of a gun, this preliminary report was in the news this afternoon, from various news sources: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1  :

"These prevalence estimates represent a range between 48,000 and 81,000 people infected in Santa Clara County by early April, 50-85-fold more than the number of confirmed cases. Conclusions: The population prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 antibodies in Santa Clara County implies that the infection is much more widespread than indicated by the number of confirmed cases. Population prevalence estimates can now be used to calibrate epidemic and mortality projections."

If that many people have the antibodies (50-85x that of confirmed cases), that would surely bring down the death rate percentage figure as well as the number of people who had symptoms and show a different perspective.

I have to say, when I compare the scientific progress the world has made regarding this virus vs. how long it's taken to figure out AIDS, it makes me feel we've made progress in some areas at least.

https://youtu.be/-UO3Wd5urg0

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15206#msg15206)
Larry, it is true that some deaths could have been prevented, but at the cost of having less immune people, so more deaths in the second wave when the restrictions are eventually lifted.

As the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20. Why at 11 deaths? Why not one? How many states would be in line with with restrictions at those points? NYC seems to have held out much longer.

Very good point Sena. Thank you.

Hi All,

I've been researching cv19. I'm coming to the conclusion this is a massive propaganda campaign. I won't speculate to what end.
There is a growing number of Dr's coming out with the same conclusion. Unfortunately they don't get the traction the main stream media does.
The CDC is telling Dr's to list all deaths as cv19. There are Dr's coming out with this. They are also doing this worldwide.
They are hyper inflating the numbers.
What is actually out there, and what it actually is, is 2 completely different things.

All flus and colds are of the Covid family. That's partially how they can say so many will be infected, and get test results to reflect that. Everyone has had a flu and or cold.

One of the first Dr's to come out is Dr Andrew Kaufman. He has some impressive credentials to back up that he knows what he's talking about. I'm very impressed with him. I've listened to a good amount of his interviews.
What he says backs up what Seth has been saying about viruses very nicely, in my opinion.

I'm listing an interview for those interested below . It's a good overview of how the medical system works, and the basis for understanding viruses- called germ theory. I'm very hopeful that with the knowledge he brings it will start a new era in medicine, on how we look at and deal with diseases in general.

Relevant part starts at 21:50 in the podcast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWQU3S23zmo

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15212#msg15212)
One of the first Dr's to come out is Dr Andrew Kaufman. He has some impressive credentials to back up that he knows what he's talking about. I'm very impressed with him. I've listened to a good amount of his interviews.
What he says backs up what Seth has been saying about viruses very nicely, in my opinion.

T.M., thanks for your interesting post. Andrew Kaufman's views are summarized on this webpage:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1262342/pg1

"1. There is no gold standard test, therefore no scientifically reliable evidence for the existence of a novel virus.

2. The current official test looks for genetic (RNA) material also found in exosomes - toxin-combatting mechanisms that are produced naturally in all of our bodies in response to a lot of different stimuli, including illness, injury, and stress - including - wait for it... stress induced by fear.

3. The test likely has approximately an 80% false positive rate.

Yes, this means that both the numerator and denominator are very, very wrong.

4. The death stats (for this yet to be officially proven) virus are manipulated and artificially biased upwards to the extent of being declared a pandemic and to the extent that anyone expiring from any lung-related condition is being counted as having died from the effect of the "novel virus".

5. A vaccine for the respiratory illness allegedly caused by the virus - that has no scientific basis for its existence - is being proposed."

I don't have enough knowledge to decide on the truth or otherwise of points 1 to 3, but if it is the case that a false positive test for the virus could be produced by FEAR, that is very interesting. That would be very Sethian. So it is even possible that some of the deaths supposed to be due to the virus are actually caused by fear.

As regards point 4 (4. The death stats for this virus are manipulated and artificially biased upwards to the extent of being declared a pandemic and to the extent that anyone expiring from any lung-related condition is being counted as having died from the effect of the "novel virus".), I am in complete agreement. The current situation in the UK is that daily statistics are given for "the number of people dying who have tested positive for coronavirus". There is absolutely no proof that the death was caused by coronavirus. It is acknowledged that 91% of those dying had serious "underlying conditions", and death could be due to those conditions. Once the Covid19 test comes back positive that induces FEAR in the hospital staff, and that fear is communicated to the patient.

Is the coronavirus a case of mass hysteria?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_hysteria_cases

https://www.worth.com/how-mass-hysteria-is-making-coronavirus-worse-than-it-actually-is/

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15206#msg15206)
Larry, it is true that some deaths could have been prevented, but at the cost of having less immune people, so more deaths in the second wave when the restrictions are eventually lifted.

By acting earlier, we would have avoided hospitals and healthcare professionals being overwhelmed with the huge spike in illnesses and deaths. We would have had more time to adequately supply the workers with basic protections and hospital equipment and to come up with effective treatments. And we might have kept the rate of infection so low that the disruption to the economy could have been very short. Instead, it was allowed to get out of control before anything was done. It is true that there will likely be a second wave, but if it is dealt with in the same proactive manner as was suggested, it would be less damaging because we would be better prepared.

Hi All,

Hi Sena,

I listen mostly to his interviews. I can't shortly re paraphrase all I've learned from them. I wish I could.
This is another interview, where he tells you how they work in the lab, goes to your point 2.

Towards the end it will be discussed, some researchers are coming to the conclusion that:
Viruses overlay in a parasitic electro magnetic way on an otherwise healthy cell. That's what causes the cell to become ill.
What is electro magnetic?????   My answer - Thoughts!  Just like Seth said!! @ 34:27 in the clip.

This interview also goes over his credentials. I'm glad I listened just for the understanding it gave me about how they work in the lab. He also says in this interview that regular colds and flus are simply the body's way of burning out and eliminating toxins built up throughout the year. I'm with him on that too!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQQtOQUkUoI

Here's another Dr coming out about the over hype being reported in main stream vs. what's actually going on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fm5ofE5pzA&t=1210s

Hospitals are now just accepting cv19 patients only. They are actually laying off nurses due to inactivity. Not to mention losing tons of money. The only way they are getting money is playing along with what the .gov tells them to do. Which is report everything as cv19. People who are dying at home cause they can't go to the hospital, are being listed as cv19 deaths.

Hi All,

This is another physician specifically addressing the Cdc telling other physicians how to list cv19.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZGPDW4gGE

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15216#msg15216)
This is another physician specifically addressing the Cdc telling other physicians to list all deaths as cv19

I listened to this, and she never said that. What she said is that if someone is tested with CV19 or has CV19 symptoms and then dies  from, for instance, a heart attack, it may be presumed that CV19 was a contributing factor. It's up to the doctor to declare whether that person died from the heart attack or CV19. But it is not "all deaths". I doubt that traffic fatalities, shootings and opioid overdoses are being declared as CV19 fatalities. One could say that if the CV19 deaths are overblown, then so are flu deaths. If someone with the flu gets pneumonia and dies, did they die from the flu or from pneumonia? It's unlikely they would have gotten pneumonia without having gotten the flu, and the same could be said for many of these CV19-related deaths.

Hi All,


Hi Larry.

I changed the title to reflect how the Cdc is telling Dr's how to list cv19. I did originally title it all deaths.
However, the vid above it,  Corona Virus cv19, does include a Dr exposing a death, unrelated to cv19 as being listed as cv19.
His example is one of many I've come across.

I just don't want to spam this sight with the numerous vids I've come across that report on this.
I did mix the title of the vid with other vids I've seen.
As an interesting aside though, more people are dying of the flu, yearly and traditionally, than the amount of actually confirmed cv19.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15215#msg15215)
Hospitals are now just accepting cv19 patients only. They are actually laying off nurses due to inactivity. Not to mention losing tons of money. The only way they are getting money is playing along with what the .gov tells them to do. Which is report everything as cv19. People who are dying at home cause they can't go to the hospital, are being listed as cv19 deaths.

T.M., this is very interesting. The following is from David Icke's Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/davidicke/photos/a.164527493841/10157513163148842/?type=3&theater

People are just avoiding going to hospital. Does that mean people with heart attacks are dying at home? We don't know. According to Sethian principles, it could be that somebody who has chosen to die at this time chooses to die of coronavirus rather than of a heart attack.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15216#msg15216)
Hi All,

This is another physician specifically addressing the Cdc telling other physicians how to list cv19.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZGPDW4gGE

T.M., thanks for sharing this video clip. At one point Dr. Bukacek says, "If the patient has arteriosclerotic heart disease and is also positive for Covid 19, what is the cause of death? Who knows? Only God in heaven knows."
"A death can be certified as due to Covid 19 even if the test for Covid 19 has not been done."

Hi Sena,

This is what I was trying to get at. Hospitals are only taking in cv19. If you die in a hospital or at home, they finagle and list it as cv19. The Dr's are being heavily pressured to list as cv19,  the cdc then uses "presumptive" as their legal jargon.

I have no doubt many are believing this and exiting at this time, cause they're scared beyond measure.

We've never as a world faced something like this. The past pandemics didn't include instantaneous world wide communications.
They also didn't include a world wide shutdown, with enormous economic implications, talked about non stop from all angles.
Medical technology was in its infancy.  I imagine people unfamiliar Seth's concepts of beliefs and working with them are having a really rough go of it now.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15221#msg15221)
The past pandemics didn't include instantaneous world wide communications.
They also didn't include a world wide shutdown, with enormous economic implications, talked about non stop from all angles.
Medical technology was in its infancy.  I imagine people unfamiliar Seth's concepts of beliefs and working with them are having a really rough go of it now.

T.M., U.K. media are reporting that 91% of people support the government's decision to extend the lockdown for a further 3 weeks. This probably means that 91% are suffering from mass hysteria, even scientisits.

This article in Time magazine is rather worrying:

https://time.com/5820556/ventilators-covid-19/

It is saying that if you are put on a ventilator in hospital, you have an 80% risk of dying. The decision to be put on a ventilator is not always for the benefit of the patient. It may be because hospital staff feel that a patient on a ventilator is less likely to infect them (the staff). Maybe because a patient on a ventilator stops coughing.

Another one from David Icke:

https://www.facebook.com/davidicke/photos/a.164527493841/10157512561833842/?type=3&theater

Hi Sena,

I came across a vid from the Dr in the time article about a week ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15218#msg15218)
As an interesting aside though, more people are dying of the flu, yearly and traditionally, than the amount of actually confirmed cv19.

From 2010-11 thru 2016-17, the U.S. death rate from flu has averaged 36,000 per year. The U.S. death rate from CV19 is today nearly 38,000 and rising rapidly. A huge difference between the two is that CV19 is overwhelming many hospitals, which simply does not happen with the flu unless there is a flu pandemic such as the Spanish flu.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15221#msg15221)
Hospitals are only taking in cv19.

I doubt that. If someone has a heart attack at home and an ambulance is called, I'm sure they are not blocked at the hospital door. Also, as of yesterday, hospitals in some areas are allowing elective surgeries again.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15223#msg15223)
Hi Sena,

I came across a vid from the Dr in the time article about a week ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o

T.M., thanks for the video clip.
"In the next few weeks, 100,000 American citizens may be put on ventilators."
"With regard to Covid 19, we are operating under a medical paradigm that is untrue."
"I fear that this misguided treatment will mean a great deal of harm to a large number of people."

If I have a fever and cough, I would completely avoid going into hospital.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15222#msg15222)
It is saying that if you are put on a ventilator in hospital, you have an 80% risk of dying.

That makes it sound like ventilators are killing 80% of the patients. The fact is, most patients are put on ventilators because they can no longer breathe on their own, and they would die without the vents. They are the sickest patients. The doctor in the video may have a point about people who don't yet need to be ventilated, but he continues on to say that many of the patients do need it.

Hi All,

Hi Larry,

Using who's numbers? From my research, it's clear to me .gov numbers are highly misleading. Which was a very shocking revelation to me. I didn't, almost couldn't believe things could be that far off. Till I started looking into this a little deeper.
Honestly I'm still in a state of shock over what I've learned.

As for hospitals, if someone comes in regardless of the original cause, it turns into cv19.
I have an elective operation/surgery I'm getting set for. The hospital is using Tele conferencing for all appointments but the procedure itself.

I wouldn't be surprised if some hospitals are trying to reopen. They are losing the bulk of their income in all of this.

Hi Sena,

It's amazing the Dr's that are coming forward and saying Hey, something really isn't right here.

In case anyone watched the interview of Dr Jay Bhattacharya that I put up yesterday, looks like he was just interviewed again as the report came out on the antibody testing they were doing in Santa Clara County, which he talked about in the previous video.

I really like this guy, he comes across as being very dedicated and knowledgeable. I felt there were a couple of times the interviewer tried to get him to speculate on things beyond his scope of reporting and he did not fall for it. He's focused. :)

Just a couple of comments about the conversation here today: as far as I know, hospitals are not turning away patients that are having serious medical issues. They are keeping the CV patients separate of course, and I've been hearing radio announcements telling people if you suspect you may have the virus, please don't just show up at the hospital or walk-in care. Call a doctor or medical institution and ask them how to proceed. Of course elective surgeries were put in hold. That was done to preserve medical resources such as masks, gowns, etc., plus free up medical staff so they can focus on people whose lives are in danger. And who wants to take the change of getting exposed if it can be avoided?

What I'd read about the doctors reporting coronavirus deaths is that the CDC sent out a letter and PDF (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf) to doctors regarding cause of death reporting (see page 2) on how to determine a CV death, which is what I think started the uproar, "probable" or "presumed." I don't suppose it's easy to figure out if a person died from an underlying condition complicated by the flu, respiratory virus, or CV, unless they've been tested and diagnosed as positive for something. As testing becomes more accurate and people showing symptoms are tested, the determination should become easier.

Quote"When determining whether COVID–19 played a role in the
cause of death, follow the CDC clinical criteria for evaluating a
person under investigation for COVID–19 and, where possible,
conduct appropriate laboratory testing using guidance provided
by CDC or local health authorities. "

"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot
be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances
are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it
is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as
"probable" or "presumed." In these instances, certifiers should
use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19
infection was likely. However, please note that testing for
COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible."

The video from the NYC doctor was distressing. It's dated March 31, I wonder if they've learned more about what's happening in the lungs? A week or two ago I'd heard that when the virus invades the lung tissue, it sets off a massive immune response, which ends up causing more damage to the lungs, as the lung tissue itself becomes injured. Both would cause a lot of inflammation, I would think. All of that would effect oxygenation (my guess, I have no medical training obviously). Some doctors are suggesting holding off using ventilators until sat scores are lower than what they've considered unacceptable in the past. But since then I haven't heard more about it. I did find an article from another news source I'd not heard of before: https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2020-04-15/are-ventilators-helping-or-harming-covid-19-patients It does make sense to me, though, that if someone can't breathe on their own, they are close to dying and a ventilator would prolong life for a while at least.

https://youtu.be/k7v2F3usNVA

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15227#msg15227)
Using who's numbers?

Not sure what you are referring to here.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

Thanks for the vid of Dr Jay, I listened to the other one you posted and found him interesting too.

Hi Larry,

"From 2010-11 thru 2016-17, the U.S. death rate from flu has averaged 36,000 per year. The U.S. death rate from CV19 is today nearly 38,000 and rising rapidly. "

I'm curious where the 38,000 death rate figure is coming from.

Quote from: T.M. (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15230#msg15230)
I'm curious where the 38,000 death rate figure is coming from.

Hi T.M., I can't find the source again, but it had the official death rates for each of those timeframes. I added the total and divided by 7. Another source that I just found simply states that: "Overall, the CDC estimates that 12,000 and 61,000 deaths annually since 2010 can be blamed on the flu." So 38,000 per year average seems to be in line with that. We hear "60,000 deaths" all the time, but it is usually preceded by "as high as", which we tend to drop in favor of a nice round impressive number.

Hi All,

Hi Larry,

Thank you!

I took a break from listening to Psychic Politics today on my walk, and instead listened to two podcasts from the Weston Price Organization. Warning: The foundation questions vaccinations, processed foods, the relationship between the decline in the human diet and an uptick of allergies and chronic illness over the past 100 years or so, nased on research done by Dr. Weston Price and his resulting book. While the foundation tries to educate the public about things we never hear about regarding food processing, vaccine and pharma studies, side effects, they also do not tell people to not vaccinate. Their goal is to educate people by by sharing data that we'd never see on our own, so people can make their own decisions.

The podcasts are about 45 minutes each, can be listened with the Podcast App, or on the page links below, or can be downloaded from the pages as mp3s. The first one here really makes me question what the heck has really been going on, and is definitely the one to listen to if you only want to listen to one. Leslie seems very level headed and credible.

238: Behind the Coronavirus with Leslie Manookian April 20, 2020
https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/238-behind-the-coronavirus/

Projection errors, models, lockdowns, misinformation, Fauci/Gates/others being against herd immunity, the Gates money-bags connection to vaccinations, the WHO, the Wuhan Lab. Developing (2) methods to track who is vaccinated and who is not. A complete list of what's covered is on the linked page. Links to articles referenced also are on the page.

242: Are Germs The Enemy? with Dr. Andy Kaufman May 18, 2020
https://www.westonaprice.org/podcast/242-are-germs-the-enemy/

Dr. Kaufman is a molecular biologist and psychiatrist. He's been mentioned here a few times, videos, etc. He's controversial but also sounds very credible. He explains the difference between Germ Theory and Terrain Theory, which really fits in with the Seth materials. Topics covered: lack of studies on germ theory and Koch's Postulates, how bacteria is naturally occurring in our bodies and not a foreign invader. More listed on the page. I have to admit he lost me in the end when he was talking about Masaru Emoto's work, which is a little too far out there for me, but overall he sounds very credible and knowledgeable to me.

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

Thank you for the podcasts. I like Kaufman, and his approach to this.
Imo, this whole thing along with the players is dirty from top to bottom.
I'm not interested in their vaccines or tests!

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15702#msg15702)
Dr. Kaufman is a molecular biologist and psychiatrist.

Deb, thanks for the link. I also found this:

https://londonreal.tv/unmasking-the-lies-around-covid-19-facts-vs-fiction-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic/

"Speaking counter to the mainstream media, Dr. Kaufman has stated that a virus is not causing a new disease, there is no evidence of increased mortality and modern medicine is the leading cause of death."

The excessive use of invasive ventlators together with opiate tranquillizers appears to be causing death.

Thanks Sena for the link to londonreal.tv. Boy they sure make it difficult to listen to any part of the interview! The link to the clips has expired and I'll have to subscribe to watch the video. Ah well, I guess I'll be signing up then.

Update: I just found it as a podcast. 2 hours long!

Lynda just put this quote up on Facebook yesterday, I thought the timing was great:

"The viruses and infections were of course present. They always are. They are themselves fragments, struggling small fragments without intention of harm.

"You have general immunity, believe it or not, to all such viruses and infections. Ideally, you can inhabit a plane with them without fear. It is only when you give tacit agreement that harm is inflicted upon you by these fragments."

The Early Sessions, Book 1, Session 17

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15706#msg15706)
Ideally, you can inhabit a plane with them without fear. It is only when you give tacit agreement that harm is inflicted upon you by these fragments."

Deb,
Thanks for a great quote! How true.
Yet, of how much fear robs you. Here is what I came across in The Economist of April 11, 2020 - in the article about house sharers and Covid "Please Shower on Entry"

"There are also rules for domestic chores <...> which require 5 people to do shopping: two to buy goods (they wear two layers of clothing, taking off the outer layer after leaving the store); two to disinfect purchases outside the house; one to clean the fruit and vegetables. It takes hours."

And I have all the compassion for those who are afraid and don't know about how things really are.

But at least I can improve the general situation by being a good Seth student and a happy me :)

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15707#msg15707)
The Economist of April 11, 2020 - in the article about house sharers and Covid "Please Shower on Entry"

Ugh! That's incredible! Thanks Marianna. It's stuff like that that really makes me think there's more to this than meets the eye. I've been noticing lately that people in stores seem afraid of each other. It wasn't like that a few weeks ago. I think all the constant repetition in the news, signs everywhere "Safer at Home" and seeing masks on people is wearing people down.

So I did listen to the entire Dr. Kaufman podcast this morning and it was a great one. More ideas from him as to what's really going on, and science to back up what he says. From what he's been saying, all the health organizations, experts, scientists have this all wrong. I've been skeptical about this, but he seems so knowledgeable and straight forward. So either the experts are ignorant, or there's something going on.

Then today I found out about the latest iPhone update and what's included. This gave me a weird feeling. I'll turn off auto-update, but if I ever want to update my phone in the future (there are always improvements and bug fixes), then I'll be forced to accept the new app to support "COVID-19 contact tracing apps from pubic health authorities." Unfortunately you can't choose what part of the iOS that gets updated, it comes as a package. To me, there's something wrong with that. Forced compliance. It has an on/off switch. For now.

On a brighter note, I made some new friends while I was fishing this morning. Three months ago this would never have happened. The elk were within 15 feet of me, they silently snuck up. I'm also adding a photo from a couple of weeks ago from when I was up in Georgetown. Big horn sheep grazing on people's lawns. Again, something I've never seen before.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15713#msg15713)
I've been noticing lately that people in stores seem afraid of each other. It wasn't like that a few weeks ago. I think all the constant repetition in the news, signs everywhere "Safer at Home" and seeing masks on people is wearing people down.

Yes, Deb, there is some of this - there are still kind faces here and there, and even in a grocery store (nearly the only place where I meet people now, except from "seven o'clock howl" where I wave to people on other balconies).

Yet, when someone actually 'barks' at me for coming close to get a broccoli, I am unpleasantly surprised though I understand that barking is not actually at me, but general fear and 'venting'.

The whole situation starts wearing us down. Though we have access to nature and parks. Btw, Memorial Day getting away was cancelled. It was a place in Cape Cod from Stay Away site.

What you said about the phone, the situation can go the way you say (optional for now, forced in future), but only if we expect it to. What Federation of Life mentioned - about "forces of light" prevailing - this gives me assurance and hope. Even if we are further inconvenienced in some way - it Will be temporary. Again - a learning challenge for us all.

I think it's so incredibly mindless that NO ONE on any of these media channels tells you how to PREVENT or ELIMINATE the virus in your system

It irritates me knowing that there is misinfo and ignorance about quinine and chloroquinine. Quinine has been used for CENTURIES to kill these viruses. It is a plant compound. Chloroquine is a stronger synthetic form of it. People forgot they live on planet Earth I guess, which contributes to my next point about how people seem to also be massively ignorant about oligodynamics which is the scientifically proven property of metals such as copper and silver among many which kill viruses via ionization.

It'd be one thing is people just didn't know, but it's a whole other thing for people on all these YouTube videos with millions of views and all these news stations and media making no mention of these facts.

And it's a whole other sickening level to have fraudulent organizations like the Communist Party's World Health Disorganization actively promote FALSE information about chloroquine. I don't get upset but to contemplate many thousands of people dying because of scientific illiteracy or misinformation when people have access to their social media to spread this awareness is astonishing.

There wouldn't be a need for a vaccine if people applied this info.

I have to admit I have questions about the hydroxychloroquine controversy. I've heard several doctors say they've used it with great success, and patients who attribute it to saving their lives, and then I hear reports that is is dangerous and kills. I personally have friends and relatives that have taken it numerous times while traveling to countries where malaria is a big problem, and there have been no problems with it at all.

I had the idea the other day that it is not a "cure" for the virus. Like with preventing malaria, I feel it makes the body non-compatible with life for the virus. So if given prophylactically or in the early stages of infection, it neutralizes the virus. Giving it to people who are in the last stages of death will not help, as the body is already overcome by the virus. Too late.

That's just my feeling. I'm not a doctor, not even close. And don't self-medicate! Aquarium treatment ingredients that may resemble the spelling of hydroxychloroquine are about as close as quinine is to strychnine. I read somewhere that the Arizona woman who dosed her husband with ich treatment was being investigated for murder. They had some marital issues and friends and relatives insist he was "no dummy."

Chloroquine and quinine are related...it's not just the name

Also, copper ionization is a real thing used in hospitals, pools, and drinking water filtration systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper-silver_ionization

I wonder what a person is supposed to do for example if they're asymptomatic? Just wait around until they need to go to a hospital full of people with germs? I'd rather not.

Copper is absorbed through the skin and can be ingested in supplements. I myself have copper objects and in the same way that a copper silver ionization system works, copper ions in the bloodstream should kill pathogens. Copper is not toxic to humans in small amounts. The body uses it it is a nutrient.

This is not something government agencies will tell you. They know, and are silent. Example from the copper ionization page:

"Copper-silver ionization technology is recognized by the World Health Organization (WHO), the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to control Legionella within potable water distribution networks found in hospitals, hotels and other large type facilities. The level of ions generated has been reported to be usually below EPA Safe Water Drinking Act Lead and Copper Rule AL for copper.[3] The AL for copper in potable water is 1.3 ppm (Cu) and the SCL for silver is 0.1 ppm (Ag) (which is the same as 100 ppb). "


Yet they don't say absolutely anything about this to people on their Twitter or other outlets.

People know at this point the World Health Disorganization is the Chinese government's puppet, but I think nothing is more telling than their complete silence on these facts. Some medical professionals must know this, but the masses are not being told while the mainstream media is so excited to rush a vaccine that wouldn't even be necessary if we eliminated with this kind of information applied.

Copper plate/mesh masks, gloves, clothings. This kind of clothing for nurses.

I am not going to go in to discussing vaccines but from what I can tell, it's something that would be completely unnecessary if people knew these things as preventative measures. Viruses would not be able to survive on these kinds of surfaces or in bodies of water and therefore couldn't be transmitted but people are too dull.

There's no profit in preventative medicine for mega-billion dollar pharma-industries/pharmAgencies that rely on treatments and endless prescriptions.

How much of this "information and dis-information" is part of usual brain-washing?
we should/must not use our own brains, somebody else does it for us, takes care of us, -government, authorities, accredited institutes...they know better.
i have been surprised about how many- a good part- of population seems to go along with all this without questions.
because sufficiently terrified.? (and happy with cell-phone updates  ;))
gyms open here monday
we have received hundred of pages of cleaning, disinfecting, hygenics, protocols, rules, restrictions, formulaes to sign for everybody.  no germ or microbe must survive in this sanitized world. ""kill them all for our safety" is remedy today?

like to add here an interesting study Dr. Masaru Emoto has done studying the effect word/thought/music has on water molecules ,( photographed on microscope freezed water melting-simply put)
links to site hado (Hado: The intrinsic vibrational pattern at the atomic level in all matter) photos:
https://www.masaru-emoto.net/en/crystal/
after heavy metal music: https://www.mynaturalhealer.com/dr-emoto-water-experiments/
maybe you like
Thanks to all, I appreciate so much this forum, much to read, much to learn

Quote from: narvik2 (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15804#msg15804)
i have been surprised about how many- a good part- of population seems to go along with all this without questions.

Issa, this is because the fear of death is a very powerful emotion for most people. Atheists fear oblivion and Christians fear punishment. Seth and other teachers have done a great service by helping us understand something about pre-life and afterlife.

@narvik2 I have read too many articles that bring the dis-information into question. Little makes any sense at this point, we may never know the whole truth behind this pandemic. Of my friends, some are seriously uninformed and do not question what they are being fed. Some do critically think and examine the "information" we are given, and I cherish them.

Here's a recent article I enjoyed: https://www.rt.com/op-ed/490006-death-certificates-covid-19-do-not-trust/ The articles I read are not coming from conspiracy theorists, but instead well educated people that are on the front line.

@Sena, I really appreciate your assessment of the fear of death. Yesterday I visited, at a "safe" distance, a couple of friends that have been incapacitated with fear of death from this virus, and they are devoted Catholics. I wondered why they were so fearful of possible death. You answered my question.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15809#msg15809)
Here's a recent article I enjoyed: https://www.rt.com/op-ed/490006-death-certificates-covid-19-do-not-trust/ The articles I read are not coming from conspiracy theorists, but instead well educated people that are on the front line.

Deb, thanks for the interesting link.

"By Malcolm Kendrick, doctor and author who works as a GP in the National Health Service in England. .
As an NHS doctor, I've seen people die and be listed as a victim of coronavirus without ever being tested for it. But unless we have accurate data, we won't know which has killed more: the disease or the lockdown?
I suppose most people would be somewhat surprised to know that the cause of death, as written on death certificates, is often little more than an educated guess. Most people die when they are old, often over eighty. There is very rarely going to be a post-mortem carried out, which means that, as a doctor, you have a think about the patient's symptoms in the last two weeks of life or so. You go back over the notes to look for existing medical conditions.
I do know that other doctors put down Covid-19 on anyone who died from early March onwards. I didn't. What can be made of the statistics created from data like these? And does it matter?

It matters greatly for two main reasons. First, if we vastly overestimate deaths from Covid-19, we will greatly underestimate the harm caused by the lockdown. This issue was looked at in a recent article published in the BMJ, The British Medical Journal.  It stated: "Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by Covid-19."

Quote from: narvik2 (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15804#msg15804)
i have been surprised about how many- a good part- of population seems to go along with all this without questions.because sufficiently terrified.? (and happy with cell-phone updates  )gyms open here monday  we have received hundred of pages of cleaning, disinfecting, hygenics, protocols, rules, restrictions, formulaes to sign for everybody.  no germ or microbe must survive in this sanitized world. ""kill them all for our safety" is remedy today?

Hi All, hi @narvik2
Good to see you here again and enjoying the forum. Glad to hear your gym is opening, but it is such a shame you'll have to follow '100 pages of cleaning and other protocols" - which in reality make no difference for someone falling or not falling ill.

But since we all create our reality, you created your participation too, and so you can "create" your better future - by expecting to see and visualizing people without masks, unobsessed by hand sanitizing, hugging among friends permitted and so on :)
As for research and photos of the Japanese scientist, I heard about it. And I use it in everyday life. Every time I fill my 3 liter pitcher with drinking water, I hold my hands around it and say "love, health". I am sure it is useful. As any action/word done/uttered with vibration of love is useful.

My husband and I get sick very infrequently, for health purposes only :) And though my husband thinks nothing of Seth and all such nonsense, he is affected by my thoughts telepathically and we are on the whole a very happy family :)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15805#msg15805)
Issa, this is because the fear of death is a very powerful emotion for most people. Atheists fear oblivion and Christians fear punishment. Seth and other teachers have done a great service by helping us understand something about pre-life and afterlife.

Yes, Sena, thank you for this explanation. I also think that fearing/not fearing death makes a lot of difference. This and "you create your reality" makes my life a happy one - now. I am calm and not afraid not because I don't watch the news, but because I know that frightening info I come across online and in press has nothing to do with creating my tomorrow. No, it is not Polyanna style, but confidence in something that has proved itself true in smaller things for years.

Besides, Seth and a few others - are the sources I trust.                   
                  

This is from am article in "The Lancet", the premier medical journal in the UK. It makes a suggestion on how so-called Third World countries should deal with the coronavirus:

"Concurrently, we suggest that countries must let people get on with their lives—to work, earn money, and put food on the table. Let shop keepers open and sell their wares and provide services. Let construction workers return to building sites. Allow farmers to harvest their crops and to transport them to be sold on the open market. Allow health workers to do their daily work as before, with sensible precautions such as use of gloves and masks to minimise the risk of exposure to the virus. And allow the average citizen to travel freely with restrictions only applied to clusters where lockdowns are necessary. Livelihoods are an imperative for saving lives. Some will say such an approach, which runs the risk of spreading disease, implies that the lives of poor people are not as valuable as those in wealthy countries. Nothing could be further from the truth. The policies of widespread lockdowns and a focus on high-technology health care might unintentionally lead to even more sickness and death, disproportionately affecting the poor. And, if such policies are mandated by global consensus, then global financial institutions must write off outstanding debts from low-income countries and finance the needed resources to underwrite the economic recovery of these countries."

The full article can be downloaded here:

https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(20)31089-8

Thanks Sena! Sounds very reasonable.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=15776#msg15776)
I have to admit I have questions about the hydroxychloroquine controversy.

I guess I wasn't alone. :P

Top medical journal retracts Covid-19 study criticizing hydroxychloroquine after validity of research data questioned

Quote from: RT.comThe Lancet, one of the top medical journals in the world, has retracted a study questioning the safety of treating Covid-19 with anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine, following controversy surrounding the research firm behind it.

The retraction officially came at the request of the study's authors, who admitted on Thursday they could "no longer vouch for the veracity of the primary data sources."

Healthcare analytics firm Surgisphere, which provided the data, has come under serious scrutiny in recent days as details about the company have come to light.

Though the firm claimed to have gathered their data from thousands of patients at hundreds of hospitals worldwide, an independent investigation has questioned the accuracy of their research. The firm was also found to have almost no online presence and only a handful of employees, one of whom is a science fiction writer and another who is an "adult" entertainer."

https://www.rt.com/news/490828-lancet-hydroxychloroquine-study-retraction-coronavirus/

Update: This has even more information:

https://www.rt.com/news/490734-hydroxychloroquine-faulty-data-science-flaw/

Let's not forget Elias's help on Covid-19.  I particularly appreciate his advice on viewing an interim new normal as the precursor to the ultimate new normal.

Terminology is challenged in the latest posted session:

QuoteLet me also say to you that this is the reason that so many individuals that have actually activated this particular virus didn't incorporate significant symptoms. Why? Because this particular virus is a mutation. It is one in what you would term to be a family of viruses. This is the reason that it has been named Covid-19, because there are 18 other variations.

Session is at http://www.eliasweb.org/Session.aspx?sn=202006031 (http://www.eliasweb.org/Session.aspx?sn=202006031)

We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

wanderer, welcome to the forum. There will be more controversy when vaccines become available. May I ask what Elias says about vaccines?

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

From the Mirror (UK): "COVID-19 stands for Corona Virus Disease 2019. The name was chosen by the World Health Organisation (WHO), with input from OIE Animal Health and FAO.

In a statement, director general of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, explained: "We had to find a name that did not refer to a geographical location, an animal, an individual or group of people, and which is also pronounceable and related to the disease.

"Having a name matters to prevent the use of other names that can be inaccurate or stigmatising. It also gives us a standard format to use for any future coronavirus outbreaks."

Before it was officially named COVID-19, scientists were calling the coronavirus '2019-nCoV'. This covers the year it was discovered, and the fact that it was a novel coronavirus."

So Elias saying the following tells me not to pay any attention to Elias:

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
This is the reason that it has been named Covid-19, because there are 18 other variations.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16295#msg16295)

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

From the Mirror (UK): "COVID-19 stands for Corona Virus Disease 2019. The name was chosen by the World Health Organisation (WHO), with input from OIE Animal Health and FAO.

In a statement, director general of the WHO, Dr Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, explained: "We had to find a name that did not refer to a geographical location, an animal, an individual or group of people, and which is also pronounceable and related to the disease.

"Having a name matters to prevent the use of other names that can be inaccurate or stigmatising. It also gives us a standard format to use for any future coronavirus outbreaks."

Before it was officially named COVID-19, scientists were calling the coronavirus '2019-nCoV'. This covers the year it was discovered, and the fact that it was a novel coronavirus."

So Elias saying the following tells me not to pay any attention to Elias:

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
This is the reason that it has been named Covid-19, because there are 18 other variations.

I must admit, this did strike me as somewhat of a howler!  Then again, there have been times when I have dismissed something from Elias as inaccurate or unlikely, only to subsequently appreciate its truth.

Perhaps Elias was called away to conference, on urgent business, and Mary had to 'fill in'! ;D

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16294#msg16294)

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

wanderer, welcome to the forum. There will be more controversy when vaccines become available. May I ask what Elias says about vaccines?

From the latest posted session:

QuoteI would say that developing vaccines is not entirely flawed, that there is a point to that action, because the premise with vaccines is to incorporate the individual's—or the human's—immune system itself to enhance it, to make it stronger and therefore generate an immunity or to introduce certain organisms to the human body consciousness, and therefore the body consciousness becomes familiar with it and then moves in a direction of being able to effectively and efficiently guard against it. Which actually IS a very creative and inventive direction and is definitely, I would say, productive and valuable.

But even with the mutations of certain organisms, once the body consciousness has become accustomed to the original form, it likely, even if you were to activate a mutation of the organism, you would likely incorporate a much less affectingness physically, because the body consciousness is already familiar with certain components of it and therefore would not be as dramatically affected as it would be otherwise.

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16298#msg16298)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16294#msg16294)

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16293#msg16293)
We have been told that Covid-19 relates to 2019, the year of its discovery.  (Could both be true?)

wanderer, welcome to the forum. There will be more controversy when vaccines become available. May I ask what Elias says about vaccines?

From the latest posted session:

QuoteI would say that developing vaccines is not entirely flawed, that there is a point to that action, because the premise with vaccines is to incorporate the individual's—or the human's—immune system itself to enhance it, to make it stronger and therefore generate an immunity or to introduce certain organisms to the human body consciousness, and therefore the body consciousness becomes familiar with it and then moves in a direction of being able to effectively and efficiently guard against it. Which actually IS a very creative and inventive direction and is definitely, I would say, productive and valuable.

But even with the mutations of certain organisms, once the body consciousness has become accustomed to the original form, it likely, even if you were to activate a mutation of the organism, you would likely incorporate a much less affectingness physically, because the body consciousness is already familiar with certain components of it and therefore would not be as dramatically affected as it would be otherwise.

Wanderer, I am not sure whether I can agree with Elias's view on vaccines, but thanks for the information.

Quote from: wanderer (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16297#msg16297)
Perhaps Elias was called away to conference, on urgent business, and Mary had to 'fill in'!

Ha ha, that was pretty funny. Welcome to the forum wanderer! I've been off-grid for a few days, trying to escape the heat. I'm back now and feel like I've stepped right back into an oven.

As far as vaccines, I did hear recently that about 1000 people somewhere (England?) were given a test vaccine and supposedly 100% of them resulted in producing antibodies to Covid, with no adverse reactions. I certainly hope they were tested for the antibodies before they were given the vaccine. I'll do some research for the specifics, will update here if I find anything. At this point I don't trust anything I hear or read anymore, so many results and statistics are misrepresented and the "facts" are changed on a daily, if not hourly, basis. The Seth side of me tells me that we make our own reality, and if we believe something (medicine/vaccine) is going to work, then it will.

A personal experience: Two weeks ago my son (only child) was directly exposed to Covid. He had a visit from an out-of-state roommate who was visiting here for a few days. He had a few sips of his friend's beer. Friend went back home, immediately became ill and tested positive. I was sweating bullets for a week waiting for my son's test result. He's only 25 but has some underlying health issues going against him. His test came back negative. The night before his results came back, I had a dream wherein someone whispered to me, "It's not as easily transmitted as you have been told." Much relief on my part. But he did pay for his recklessness in a sense: he was quarantined from work for 14 days, without pay. Hopefully he learned something. I prefer to learn from other people's mistakes, lol.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16300#msg16300)
A personal experience: Two weeks ago my son (only child) was directly exposed to Covid. He had a visit from an out-of-state roommate who was visiting here for a few days. He had a few sips of his friend's beer. Friend went back home, immediately became ill and tested positive. I was sweating bullets for a week waiting for my son's test result. He's only 25 but has some underlying health issues going against him. His test came back negative.

Deb, I am glad your son is well. I have read that the Covid 19 test sometimes gives false negative results, but false positive results are very rare:

"The number of people accessing Covid-19 testing in the UK continues to increase. Health Secretary, Matt Hancock recently announced, that anyone over the age of five years old who is showing symptoms is eligible for a test.[1] However, there are concerns that the rate of 'false negative' test results could be as high as 30% and a significant number of people are wrongly being told they do not have the virus.[2] This could be due to the particularly difficult nature of obtaining the swab, which requires someone to take a sample from the very back of the mouth or deep from inside the nose."

https://www.patientsafetylearning.org/blog/covid-19-tests-the-safety-implications-of-false-negatives

In the context of The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, I found this opinion column in my local paper to be consistent with Seth's reasons for such mass events:

July 26, 2020, COVID-19 has exposed our nation's gravest failings: "Viewing COVID-19 through a historian's lens, it's difficult to imagine a vehicle more efficiently designed for exposing and exploiting our nation's gravest failings, among them being our virulent racism; our consistent undervaluing of 'essential' workers and occupations; our shameful neglect of the needs of the elderly, disabled, children and families; and our outright inhumanity toward undocumented immigrants and incarcerated populations."

Of course, it goes beyond those categories, such as uneven access to healthcare, minimum wage being nowhere near a living wage, broken unemployment compensation systems (Florida, for one), needs of indigenous peoples and the homeless, prioritizing property over lives, prioritizing defense spending over social spending, welfare for the rich, etc.

Hi Deb, Hi LarryH, Hi All,

Deb, I also second Sena's comment. I'm really glad to hear that your son is OK. One of our sons has Type 2 diabetes and Covid is nothing that he or anyone with health risks, needs to be exposed to.

I wonder if your dream message is really true, that "Covid" is not as easily transmitted as everyone thinks.



LarryH, I completely agree, this newspaper article sounds to me like it comes directly from NOME. I wonder if the writer is familiar with Seth's ideas.

-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16346#msg16346)
LarryH, I completely agree, this newspaper article sounds to me like it comes directly from NOME.

jbseth, I would note also that the article is U.S. specific, where all of these problems are occurring and where the country is among the worst hit. It would be interesting to see how the pandemic has exposed the problems in other countries. It may not be coincidence that many of the worst-hit countries are run by "strongmen", while many of the countries that have been most successful in managing the pandemic are run by women - Germany, Taiwan, New Zealand among them.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16305#msg16305)
I have read that the Covid 19 test sometimes gives false negative results, but false positive results are very rare:

Came across this today, I thought I'd share just for the heck of it. It's related to Elon Musk's tweet that he had 4 covid tests in one day, two came back positive and two negative.

https://twitter.com/ClareCraigPath/status/1327134822993682432

Musk took the rapid test 4 times. The rapid test is known to be less accurate than the test that takes days to get results from. False positives do not explain why the hospitals all over the country are filling up with Covid patients.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17430#msg17430)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=16305#msg16305)
I have read that the Covid 19 test sometimes gives false negative results, but false positive results are very rare:

Came across this today, I thought I'd share just for the heck of it. It's related to Elon Musk's tweet that he had 4 covid tests in one day, two came back positive and two negative.

https://twitter.com/ClareCraigPath/status/1327134822993682432

Deb, this is a tweet by Dr.Clare Craig:

"I'm a diagnostic pathologist. There are issues with testing at the moment. The rapid antigen test is more likely to underdiagnose than overdiagnose so you should indeed get checked with PCR. However, PCR errors are causing a false positive pseudoepidemic."

More from Dr.Craig:

"How can we tell they are not genuine COVID deaths?

In April, the chance of someone dying having been admitted to hospital with COVID was 6%.  By June that had fallen to 1.5%.  This was attributed to changes in treatment and some of that drop may well be due to improved treatment.  However, as soon as the rate of death reached the background death rate for general hospital admissions we have to be suspicious about how many of these patients actually had COVID.

If these cases were false positives then there would be other signals in the data.  For example, cases would be randomly dispersed through the population with only one per household rather than clustering.  Since the beginning of June, the ONS Infection Survey pilot (the pillar 4 testing of randomly selected households), has found 95% of the positive cases have been the only case in their household (4). This compares with the ONS estimate of an average of 1.6 cases per household in May (4). (This is worth emphasising – either the large majority of these positive cases in the survey are false-positive, as I am arguing – or Coronavirus is so hard to catch from people in your household that only 5% of the time does this happen.)"

https://logicinthetimeofcovid.com/blog/

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17433#msg17433)
either the large majority of these positive cases in the survey are false-positive, as I am arguing – or Coronavirus is so hard to catch from people in your household that only 5% of the time does this happen.

Yes, the link I'd provided was to Dr.Craig's tweet in response to Musk's, I thought it was more valuable and interesting than the Musk tweet.

There's still so much we don't know about covid, so many different experts saying different things. I've never experienced anything like this. And yet, other than dealing with masks, some supply shortages and public restrictions such as social distancing and restaurants having to adjust their capacity, my life is fairly unaffected. I still don't know anyone personally who has had it, but  I hear the news reports of the upsurge in cases. I like details, and that's one thing I feel have been not provided. Such as, is the new surge in covid cases based solely on test results, which continue to be more available as time goes on? Is it based on hospitalizations? And are hospitals still being incentivized with extra money for covid patients and deaths? Unfortunately when I heard something on the news (radio), I can't ask these questions.

And that comment from Dr. Craig that covid may not be as infectious as we thought... my son works in a restaurant. He's 25 and parties with friends on his time off. He's been exposed, closely exposed, to the virus at least twice that he's told me. At parties, at work... and yet (knock on wood), he's fine. So I have to wonder.

I'm looking forward to putting all of this behind us.

BTW Sena, thanks for that link to the blog. I just subscribed to it. I just wish her covid cases chart was more current.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17465#msg17465)
I just wish her covid cases chart was more current.

Well, ask and you shall receive! At the bottom of the blog post was "EDIT 13/09/2020 I have started a live blog listing evidence as it comes in to demonstrate that these were false positive results." The live blog is here: https://logicinthetimeofcovid.com/2020/09/12/evidence-for-false-positives/

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17465#msg17465)
Such as, is the new surge in covid cases based solely on test results, which continue to be more available as time goes on? Is it based on hospitalizations?

It is not based solely on test results. Hospitalizations in the U.S. have clearly moved up sharply in recent weeks, and people don't get admitted to the hospital for no reason. And along with that, regardless of how many tests are done, the percentage of positives has increased, consistent with the increased hospitalizations. The percentage of false positives should be consistent over time, so a percentage increase in positives would be a percentage increase in true positives.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17467#msg17467)

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17465#msg17465)
I just wish her covid cases chart was more current.

Well, ask and you shall receive! At the bottom of the blog post was "EDIT 13/09/2020 I have started a live blog listing evidence as it comes in to demonstrate that these were false positive results." The live blog is here: https://logicinthetimeofcovid.com/2020/09/12/evidence-for-false-positives/

Deb, thanks. I hadn't seen that page.

Elon Musk has the virus. That tells me that his "false positives" mentioned above were true positives, and the negatives were false negatives. He said that he had minor cold-like symptoms, which is probably why he got tested. I have to wonder if the tests are only able to say "positive" or "negative". I would think that there would be a level of infection near that break point where there is a nearly 50% chance of a false reading. Maybe there should be a range of viral load that says, "undetermined", where the virus barely shows up and may or may not develop further. If a test showed "undetermined", that would call for an additional test and at least temporary quarantine until cleared by a "negative" test.

An ER nurse describes patients denying they have COVID—even while they're dying from it: https://www.upworthy.com/nurses-covid (https://www.upworthy.com/nurses-covid)

"An ER nurse in South Dakota shared her experience treating COVID patients—some of whom refuse to believe they have COVID—and it's really shocking. One might think that the virus would become real to people if they were directly affected by it, but apparently that's just not true for some. As Jodi Doering wrote on Twitter:

'I have a night off from the hospital. As I'm on my couch with my dog I can't help but think of the Covid patients the last few days. The ones that stick out are those who still don't believe the virus is real. The ones who scream at you for a magic medicine and that Joe Biden is going to ruin the USA. All while gasping for breath on 100% Vapotherm. They tell you there must be another reason they are sick. They call you names and ask why you have to wear all that 'stuff' because they don't have COViD because it's not real. Yes. This really happens. And I can't stop thinking about it. These people really think this isn't going to happen to them. And then they stop yelling at you when they get intubated. It's like a fucking horror movie that never ends. There's no credits that roll. You just go back and do it all over again.' "

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17485#msg17485)
An ER nurse describes patients denying they have COVID—even while they're dying from it: https://www.upworthy.com/nurses-covid (https://www.upworthy.com/nurses-covid)

"An ER nurse in South Dakota shared her experience treating COVID patients—some of whom refuse to believe they have COVID—and it's really shocking. One might think that the virus would become real to people if they were directly affected by it, but apparently that's just not true for some. As Jodi Doering wrote on Twitter:

'I have a night off from the hospital. As I'm on my couch with my dog I can't help but think of the Covid patients the last few days. The ones that stick out are those who still don't believe the virus is real. The ones who scream at you for a magic medicine and that Joe Biden is going to ruin the USA. All while gasping for breath on 100% Vapotherm. They tell you there must be another reason they are sick. They call you names and ask why you have to wear all that 'stuff' because they don't have COViD because it's not real. Yes. This really happens. And I can't stop thinking about it. These people really think this isn't going to happen to them. And then they stop yelling at you when they get intubated. It's like a fucking horror movie that never ends. There's no credits that roll. You just go back and do it all over again.' "

Larry, may I ask what is the point of this post on a Seth forum? It seems that you are continuing your campaign of provoking fear of a virus.

A recent study has shown that once infected with Covid 19, most individuals have long-term immunity to prevent a second attack:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430600/

https://www.immunology.washington.edu/2020/10/05/immunology-faculty-dr-marion-pepper-covid-19-research-featured-in-seattle-times/

"The recently emerged SARS-CoV-2 virus is currently causing a global pandemic and cases continue to rise. The majority of infected individuals experience mildly symptomatic coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19), but it is unknown whether this can induce persistent immune memory that might contribute to herd immunity. Thus, we performed a longitudinal assessment of individuals recovered from mildly symptomatic COVID-19 to determine if they develop and sustain immunological memory against the virus. We found that recovered individuals developed SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG antibody and neutralizing plasma, as well as virus-specific memory B and T cells that not only persisted, but in some cases increased numerically over three months following symptom onset. Furthermore, the SARS-CoV-2-specific memory lymphocytes exhibited characteristics associated with potent antiviral immunity: memory T cells secreted IFN-γ and expanded upon antigen re-encounter, while memory B cells expressed receptors capable of neutralizing virus when expressed as antibodies. These findings demonstrate that mild COVID-19 elicits memory lymphocytes that persist and display functional hallmarks associated with antiviral protective immunity."

https://www.immunology.washington.edu/files/2020/10/CV-monoclonal-treatment-W.jpg

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17488#msg17488)
Larry, may I ask what is the point of this post on a Seth forum? It seems that you are continuing your campaign of provoking fear of a virus.

What fear am I provoking? That the virus exists? That people who don't believe in the virus still die from the virus? There is nothing in the post that suggests that they did not die by choice, regardless of the virus. It does suggest that these people were not able to "believe" the virus out of existence. As I have stated elsewhere here, I am not afraid of the virus or of death. I accept the reality of both. I feel for the ER nurse who has to put up with the vitriol of these patients. People on the front lines in the medical profession have enough to deal with right now without ignorance-based personal attacks from their patients.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17491#msg17491)
I feel for the ER nurse who has to put up with the vitriol of these patients.

Larry, it is an interesting word you use - "vitriol":
1.
bitter criticism or malice.
"her mother's sudden gush of fury and vitriol"
2.
ARCHAIC•LITERARY
sulphuric acid.
"it was as if his words were spraying vitriol on her face"

It appears that Seth did not use that word:

https://findingseth.com/q/vitriol/

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17492#msg17492)
It appears that Seth did not use that word

Not sure what your point is, Sena. I used "vitriol" to refer to "the ones who scream at" the ER nurse who was quoted. It was used correctly. Does Seth have to use a word for me to legitimately use it in a post?

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17485#msg17485)
It's like a fucking horror movie that never ends.

Larry, your original post has some choice phrases. You expect Seth readers to be enlightened by these phrases?

Hi Sena, Hi LarryH, Hi All,

Ok guys, let's not lose of cool over this.  Over the years, all three of us have expressed different ideas about different topics.


To be honest, I thought LarryH's original post, reply # 81, was quite interesting from a "Seth" standpoint.  Seth tells us that we create our reality. He also tells us that our "beliefs" have an impact on this.

Just yesterday, my wife and I were discussing the question about people who don't know about Seth, but who have strong beliefs in certain areas. The question is, do these peoples beliefs, actually work in their favor and make them safe. 

In thinking about this, I think that it's very possible, that when their beliefs are sincere, they may very well be safe from the issue, whatever it be. On the other hand, if they have conflicting beliefs or really don't believe, what they say they do, then I think this opens them up to a certain risk of exposure to the specific issue, whatever it be.


This is an issue that I don't believe that we've ever discussed here before, and if my intuition on this topic, is serving me well here, I suspect that each one of you two probably have a different thought about this, than I do.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.


- jbseth

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17494#msg17494)
Larry, your original post has some choice phrases. You expect Seth readers to be enlightened by these phrases?

Jbseth, yes, my post was about beliefs.

Sena, the quote was one ER nurse's experience, her reality, a "fucking nightmare". If you were an ER nurse who was constantly personally attacked by patients because of their belief that their condition is not real among other delusional claims, and this on top of all of the other pressures that the healthcare workers are enduring right now, from your enlightened Sethian viewpoint, what would you call it? Denying this nurse's experience does not strike me as Sethian. Acknowledging that nightmares (waking or otherwise) are useful learning experiences would be Sethian. What would you like to see this nurse and her patients learn from their experiences? What would you say about their conflicting beliefs?

Wow all this over the tweets of an ER nurse. Since when are tweets accepted as unbiased truth?

Being an ER nurse, where ER is a typically short-lived stay (people are then either sent home, given a room or moved to intensive care), how many of her South Dakota patients do you suppose have screamed at her (remember, they are close to being intubated, can't imagine someone having the lung capacity at that point) for magic medicine and that Joe Biden is going to ruin the USA. By her tweet, it sounds like a lot have. Hard to imagine. And hard to imagine someone being sick enough to be intubated (they still do that?), with severe symptoms, that would still deny they have covid.

Fact, or a nurse on a rant? And what does Biden have to do with someone having covid?

What difference does it make what her patients believe is making them sick? I don't think that's going to change their treatment.

Also, I could not find anything saying that Elon Musk definitively has covid, unless I missed something. He said he had mild cold-like symptoms. So there is a chance he actually has a cold. Or the flu. Why does it have to automatically be covid? I saw another article yesterday that said the PCR tests don't test specifically for covid, they detect exosomes and there can be a variety of causes. I'm sure he'll have an antibody test at some point and will announce the results.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
Since when are tweets accepted as unbiased truth?

Fair point, though the source of the commonly held beliefs allegedly expressed by the patients was one particular Twitter account of a very powerful man whose followers will believe literally anything that he says no matter how delusional. Hey, you asked.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
And hard to imagine someone being sick enough to be intubated (they still do that?)

Are you under the impression that they don't put Covid patients on ventilators anymore?

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
And what does Biden have to do with someone having covid?

This was in reference to patients saying that "Joe Biden was going to ruin the USA.", an idea that comes from the same people who said that Covid was a democrat hoax. If you believe one, you are likely to believe the other.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
What difference does it make what her patients believe is making them sick?

They can believe what they want, but their reported behavior toward the nurse is the point.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
Also, I could not find anything saying that Elon Musk definitively has covid, unless I missed something.

News report said that he could not attend the recent launch of the astronauts because he had Covid.

That some patients with COVID could be in denial about their condition may be explained by this (from https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/mood-disorders-and-vivid-hallucinations-covid-19s-devastating-effects-on-the-brain/ (https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/mood-disorders-and-vivid-hallucinations-covid-19s-devastating-effects-on-the-brain/):

"People have been worried that COVID-19 survivors will be at greater risk of mental health problems, and our findings... show this to be likely," said Paul Harrison, a professor of psychiatry at Oxford. "(Health) services need to be ready to provide care, especially since our results are likely to be underestimates (of the number of psychiatric patients)."

Another study conducted by the Northwestern Medicine health system showed that up to one-third of hospitalized patients displayed "altered mental function" that included phenomena such as confusion, delusions and unresponsiveness.

But the neurological effects don't appear to be confined just to mood disorders, with some patients reporting vivid hallucinations as part of their symptoms."

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17497#msg17497)
Being an ER nurse, where ER is a typically short-lived stay (people are then either sent home, given a room or moved to intensive care), how many of her South Dakota patients do you suppose have screamed at her (remember, they are close to being intubated, can't imagine someone having the lung capacity at that point)

Nothing is normal in S. Dakota, since it is currently the worst state as well as worse than any country for COVID. There may be no ICU beds to move a patient to, so the ER is likely to have longer-term patients. Or an ER nurse could be temporarily re-assigned to where she is needed most. When a COVID patient arrives at an ER, they may not feel respiratory distress because low O2 levels are not noticed at first. They will be put on an O2 SAT monitor to watch their levels. At that point, a patient is fully able to "scream". If the O2 saturation drops below a certain level, they are first put on supplementary oxygen. If it drops further despite that, they may be put on a ventilator. The patient may still be unclear why they need to be ventilated because they are still not feeling significant respiratory distress.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17515#msg17515)
Nothing is normal in S. Dakota, since it is currently the worst state as well as worse than any country for COVID.

Larry, many people are choosing to die with a positive Covid test in South Dakota?

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17516#msg17516)
many people are choosing to die with a positive Covid test in South Dakota?

Yes, Sena, they do :( For their personal reasons they (unconsciously) decided to die. But of Covid - so that their death makes a statement. Like a part of mass suicide. This is what Seth is talking about in his Nature of Mass Events - you know that. 

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17496#msg17496)
Acknowledging that nightmares (waking or otherwise) are useful learning experiences would be Sethian. What would you like to see this nurse and her patients learn from their experiences?

Hi LarryH and All!
Yes, certainly, acknowledging nightmares would be Sethian. But for a non-Sethie it is difficult. It is not easy for a Sethie either - think of your own non-waking dreams, when you are sure things are for real. :)

Frontline workers - like everyone else - create their own experience. In stressful situations there are several good things - to check your strength in a crisis to prove it is there, to feel heroic. Because so many professions (which are now frontline) are far from heroic in normal situation. And we often don't notice these people. Take them for granted very much (post office, usps, grocery).  And for them - to get up in the morning and go to such job - non-heroic, unappreciated, unexciting - couldn't have been much fun.

As for patients and nurses - learning from this experience, I do not see anything striking. More - reaching other goals - feeling alive, having the experience of danger, being seen finally, overcoming fears.

So - overcoming fears can be what one learns. Since difficulty breathing is the symptom of great fear and distrust of life and people (V. Sinelnikov "Love your disease".) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-your-disease-Valery-Sinelnikov/dp/9662537090 

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17518#msg17518)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17516#msg17516)
many people are choosing to die with a positive Covid test in South Dakota?

Yes, Sena, they do :( For their personal reasons they (unconsciously) decided to die. But of Covid - so that their death makes a statement. Like a part of mass suicide. This is what Seth is talking about in his Nature of Mass Events - you know that. 

Marianna, yes it does appear to be mass suicide all over the world. Seth did talk about over-population. The reason for the mass suicide might be to encourage the rest of the human race to re-think their priorities, to pay more attention to teachers like Seth.

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17519#msg17519)
Frontline workers - like everyone else - create their own experience.

Thanks for that gentle reminder Marianna, it seems even the most experienced Seth readers need to be reminded of this most basic tenet of Seth. It's too easy to get sucked into the official line of consciousness since it's always in our faces.

Hi Marianna

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17519#msg17519)

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17496#msg17496)
Acknowledging that nightmares (waking or otherwise) are useful learning experiences would be Sethian. What would you like to see this nurse and her patients learn from their experiences?

Hi LarryH and All!
Yes, certainly, acknowledging nightmares would be Sethian. But for a non-Sethie it is difficult. It is not easy for a Sethie either - think of your own non-waking dreams, when you are sure things are for real. :)

Frontline workers - like everyone else - create their own experience. In stressful situations there are several good things - to check your strength in a crisis to prove it is there, to feel heroic. Because so many professions (which are now frontline) are far from heroic in normal situation. And we often don't notice these people. Take them for granted very much (post office, usps, grocery).  And for them - to get up in the morning and go to such job - non-heroic, unappreciated, unexciting - couldn't have been much fun.

As for patients and nurses - learning from this experience, I do not see anything striking. More - reaching other goals - feeling alive, having the experience of danger, being seen finally, overcoming fears.

So - overcoming fears can be what one learns. Since difficulty breathing is the symptom of great fear and distrust of life and people (V. Sinelnikov "Love your disease".) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Love-your-disease-Valery-Sinelnikov/dp/9662537090 

Spoken in true Sethian spirit!  :)

I fully agree - as "metaphysicists", we must ever be ready to look behind the facade of what seems to transpire in the view of a majority of people.

I just had a moment to surface from work, and happened to see this article. My first thought was, "wow, I bet there were some lucky people who received blood transfusions and unknowingly got a bonus of covid antibodies!" What an interesting twist on making reality.

https://www.rt.com/usa/508447-coronavirus-us-before-china/

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17718#msg17718)
received blood transfusions and unknowingly got a bonus of covid antibodies!

But my question now is - "will it help to avoid vaccination?" Of course it is always - about creating your own reality. Because it is and will be My Own - no matter what anyone and the government says. What helps - is thinking in general terms, no particulars - like Abraham-Hicks suggests: "things are always working out for me".

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17718#msg17718)
I just had a moment to surface from work, and happened to see this article. My first thought was, "wow, I bet there were some lucky people who received blood transfusions and unknowingly got a bonus of covid antibodies!" What an interesting twist on making reality.

https://www.rt.com/usa/508447-coronavirus-us-before-china/

Deb, that's a nice bonus, but I think I prefer to make my own antibodies (without vaccination).

Me too. Especially after Seth explained how vaccines work and that they put unnecessary strain on us.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17732#msg17732)
Deb, that's a nice bonus, but I think I prefer to make my own antibodies (without vaccination).

Me too, but I still thought it was a clever solution (or happy accident to quote Bob Ross) for people whose health is already compromised enough to need a transfusion to get unexpected immunity via a blood donor. I guess you could call it donated immunity.

BTW I spoke with someone the other day who just got over covid. He's young and healthy and so was surprised that he ended up in the hospital. He was given (monoclonal?) antibody treatment that helped tremendously. I didn't realize that was available in hospitals.

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17732#msg17732)
...but I think I prefer to make my own antibodies (without vaccination).

To my understanding, the only way to make your own antibodies (without a vaccine) is to get the virus. You really prefer that?

Didn't Seth or someone from contemporaries mention that it's possible to get virus but have no symptoms?

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17740#msg17740)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17732#msg17732)
...but I think I prefer to make my own antibodies (without vaccination).

To my understanding, the only way to make your own antibodies (without a vaccine) is to get the virus. You really prefer that?

Yes, I don't want a dose of chimpanzee RNA.

"How the Oxford COVID-19 vaccine works
The ChAdOx1 vaccine is a chimpanzee adenovirus vaccine vector. This is a harmless, weakened adenovirus that usually causes the common cold in chimpanzees."

https://www.research.ox.ac.uk/Article/2020-07-19-the-oxford-covid-19-vaccine

"As a considerable proportion of ongoing trials are either conducted by pharmaceutical companies or have industry sponsorship, the results are at risk of "for-profit" bias [99]. That is industry-supported research is at risk of overstating benefits and understating harms."

https://systematicreviewsjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13643-020-01516-1

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17741#msg17741)
Didn't Seth or someone from contemporaries mention that it's possible to get virus but have no symptoms?

That is correct:

"The testing revealed that at the start of the lockdown, 2.6 percent of the population (73 people) were positive for SARS-CoV-2, while after a couple of weeks only 1.2 percent (29 people) were positive. At both times, around 40 percent of the positive cases showed no symptoms (asymptomatic)."

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/198833/whole-town-study-reveals-more-than-40/

The UK approval process is less rigorous than the US FDA's approval process, per Dr. Anthony Fauci. He took some heat for saying so. So if I understand, you (sena) want to get the virus and believe you will be in the 40% who are asymptomatic.

I'm not a doctor obviously, I'm just speaking from beliefs and personal experience.

From a F1 perspective, I don't feel covid is black and white, there are many possible reactions and symptoms (or Sethian probabilities) which is one reason why the world has had problems with how to treat patients, medications, lockdown or no lockdown, etc. Every US state is handling preventive measures differently because there is no one protocol. I don't think every person has to get sick (symptomatic) with covid to develop antibodies. It's like any other contagious disease, the body is equipped to handle it if our immune system is not compromised. Ideally our bodies are meant to self-repair and maintain: our skin repairs when cut or burned, our bones heal when broken, we recover from illnesses, organs are repaired including the brain. Even cancer has been known to disappear—Seth said that as well. I think some people who are exposed to covid or any other virus or bacteria and have a healthy immune system can develop antibodies without getting "sick" and overcome by the disease — i.e. having symptoms. The body recognizes a harmful external invader of some sort and immediately neutralizes it and develops antibodies to protect. I also think that since not everyone in the world has been tested for antibodies, we don't have an accurate count on how many people actually have the antibodies but had no symptoms. Meaning, you don't test for antibodies unless you suspect you were ill.

In other cases, when an immune system is distracted by and focused on another issue, is weakened by age, or altered due to medications, the immune system is compromised and can't do what it's supposed to do to address the new issue. These are the people whose bodies are overcome by covid, with symptoms.

But if we are taking the F2 Sethian view on covid and what happens to us, again it goes back to beliefs, making our reality, and the issue of covid being more than an infectious disease that takes out people indiscriminately. In that case, it has its purposes, is a created mass event, and there are no victims. Sounds calloused, huh?

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17751#msg17751)
Even cancer has been known to disappear—Seth said that as well.

Deb, it is known that some cancers may not be harmful. One medical test which I am NOT going to have is that for prostate-specific antigen (PSA), When autopsies are done on over-70's, it is found that at least 36% have prostate cancer, which did not cause any symptoms during life. If they had been tested for PSA, they might have been given unnecessary treatment for cancer:

"Widespread prostate-specific antigen (PSA) screening detects many cancers that would have otherwise gone undiagnosed. To estimate the prevalence of unsuspected prostate cancer, we reviewed 19 studies of prostate cancer discovered at autopsy among 6024 men. Among men aged 70-79, tumor was found in 36% of Caucasians and 51% of African-Americans."

https://tinyurl.com/Prostate-specific

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17756#msg17756)
When autopsies are done on over-70's, it is found that at least 36% have prostate cancer, which did not cause any symptoms during life. If they had been tested for PSA, they might have been given unnecessary treatment for cancer:

Then you'll also like this article: https://www.westonaprice.org/book-reviews/the-great-prostate-hoax-by-richard-j-ablin-phd-and-ronald-piana/

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17757#msg17757)

Quote from: Sena (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17756#msg17756)
When autopsies are done on over-70's, it is found that at least 36% have prostate cancer, which did not cause any symptoms during life. If they had been tested for PSA, they might have been given unnecessary treatment for cancer:

Then you'll also like this article: https://www.westonaprice.org/book-reviews/the-great-prostate-hoax-by-richard-j-ablin-phd-and-ronald-piana/

Deb, how many more medical hoaxes?

That is the million dollar question.

I have been often ridiculed and judged because I don't automatically accept mainstream anything. It's hard to not care, but I've been given a brain and I choose to use it.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17751#msg17751)
In that case, it has its purposes, is a created mass event, and there are no victims. Sounds calloused, huh?

Not at all calloused - From Sethian point of view. Though I do not usually share this idea with those who do not understand (people would take offence). And sill, my thoughts telepathically are all over the place. But in present time everyday life - if you haven't said something, you haven't said it. :)

Also - like you remarked - those who participate in the event - are willing participants (on subconscious level) - for their own personal reasons. So, even more - for all facets of the situation - no symptoms, mild ones, to die - there are no victims, only choice.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17764#msg17764)
I don't automatically accept mainstream anything.

For my part - I consider it my great fortune that I came across Seth books and similar ones. They have changed my life drastically since 2008 when I first came across Zeland. I was mesmerized, and transformed. More and more. Now I do not even have to believe that my "chronic disease" is forever. Like my family thinks. The belief helps. And when I've found the cause (like one in the dark) and fixed it, I was able to heal myself.

The big event in the UK is that vaccination started yesterday. Many people seem to be very happy to be vaccinated. Considering the belief systems of the majority, vaccination seems to be the way forward. Although I don'e want to be vaccinated myself, I don't want to be labeled an anti-vaxxer.

Hi All,

With all the news about Covid numbers rising, the issues regarding the Covid vaccines and everything else Covid that's going on, I thought that the following words of wisdom from Seth might also be good to keep in mind.  The following Seth comments all come from "The Way Toward Health".


WTH, CH 1, January 7, 1984:

The body consciousness is indeed independent. To a large degree its own defense mechanisms protect it from the mind's negative beliefs — at least to a large extent. As I have mentioned before, almost all persons pass from a so-called disease state back into healthy states without ever being aware of the alterations. In those cases the body consciousness operates unimpeded by negative expectations or concepts.

When those negative considerations are multiplied, however, when they harden, so to speak, then they do indeed begin to diminish the body's own natural capacity to heal itself, and to maintain that overall, priceless organization that should maintain it in a condition of excellent strength and vitality.

There are also occasions when the body consciousness itself rises up in spite of a person's fears and doubts, and throws aside a condition of illness in a kind of sudden victory. Even then, however, the person involved has already begun to question such negative beliefs. The individual may not know how to cast them off, even though he or she desires to do so. It is in those instances that the body consciousness arises and throws off its shackles.

With free will, however, it is not possible for the body consciousness to be given full and clear dominion, for that would deny large areas of choices, and cut off facets of learning. The main direction and portent, however, of the body consciousness on its own is always toward health, expression, and fulfillment.


WTH, CH 1, January 9, 1984:

One of the greatest detriments to mental and physical well-being is the unfortunate belief that any unfavorable situation is bound to get worse instead of better. (Pause.) That concept holds that any illness will worsen, any war will lead to destruction, that any and all known dangers will be encountered, and basically that the end result of mankind's existence is extinction. All of those beliefs impede mental and physical health, erode the individual's sense of joy and natural safety, and force the individual to feel like an unfortunate victim of exterior events that seem to happen despite his own will or intent.


-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17809#msg17809)
One of the greatest detriments to mental and physical well-being is the unfortunate belief that any unfavorable situation is bound to get worse instead of better.

jbseth, thanks for this quote.

I followed a chain of information today that talked about higher amplification of cycles in the PCR test (over 25) which then results in the amplification of false positives. It seems cycle amplifications have been generally run much higher than that, as many as 45.

The WHO released a new guidance memo on 12/14 warning that high cycle thresholds on PCR tests results in false positives. I can provide links if anyone wants them.

I'm just thinking that if the new guidelines are followed (lower amplifications), that will cause the false positives to be reduced by who knows how much, which could change a lot of things. And whether the new stats will be attributed to the new testing guidelines, or somehow attributed to the success of the vaccines.

More food for thought.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17809#msg17809)
One of the greatest detriments to mental and physical well-being is the unfortunate belief that any unfavorable situation is bound to get worse instead of better. (Pause.) That concept holds that any illness will worsen, any war will lead to destruction, that any and all known dangers will be encountered, and basically that the end result of mankind's existence is extinction. All of those beliefs impede mental and physical health, erode the individual's sense of joy and natural safety, and force the individual to feel like an unfortunate victim of exterior events that seem to happen despite his own will or intent.

That speaks volumes about the human mindset. Where did we get that from?

Hi Deb, Hi All,

This Seth quote comes from WTH, Chapter 1, January 9, 1984.

Thanks to the Seth Search Engine I was able to locate it once again.

https://findingseth.com/q/'detriments+to+mental+and+physical+well-being'/


-jbseth

Thanks jbseth, I didn't mean where did the quote come from (you'd provided that when you first shared it), I meant where did we humans get the unfortunate belief and habit of assuming things will always get worse. :)

I've been untraining myself of that tendency since I was introduced to the Seth materials, but I'm still a work in progress. I can understand the logical reason the human brain explores all possible outcomes in order to be prepared—foresight—but the "you think things are bad now, just wait" or "the worst is yet to come" way of thinking seems so common.

New thought to ponder: I've been seeing signs and hearing adverts for a few months, "get your flu shot NOW." Free flu shots. Get a flu shot, get a $10 gift card. Etc.

With the covid vaccines being distributed now, I wonder how a body will react to having both vaccines? Colorado plans to start vaccinating the vulnerable people first (elderly, people with pre-existing conditions). Their immune systems are already taxed. I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17868#msg17868)
Thanks jbseth, I didn't mean where did the quote come from (you'd provided that when you first shared it), I meant where did we humans get the unfortunate belief and habit of assuming things will always get worse.

I've been untraining myself of that tendency since I was introduced to the Seth materials, but I'm still a work in progress. I can understand the logical reason the human brain explores all possible outcomes in order to be prepared—foresight—but the "you think things are bad now, just wait" or "the worst is yet to come" way of thinking seems so common.

Hi Deb,

Thanks for your comments here, I wasn't sure if you were talking about the Seth quote or something else.  If I've have been paying more attention, I would have realized that I referenced this quote in a prior message.   :)

Regarding where we come up with the idea that things will always get worse, I'm not sure about that. However, true story, for myself, just a few years before discovering Seth, I had come to the conclusion that its always better to anticipate the worst, rather than hope for the best. My reasoning for this being that this way, you won't be let down so much when the things that you want to occur, don't actually occur. 

I was really shocked by Seth's idea that, "you create your reality". I had some serious doubts about that idea. I thought, "No, life can't really possibly work that way, can it?" It was some years before I actually tried it out to see if it works and in doing so, I discovered that it really does work. 

-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17870#msg17870)

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=17868#msg17868)
Thanks jbseth, I didn't mean where did the quote come from (you'd provided that when you first shared it), I meant where did we humans get the unfortunate belief and habit of assuming things will always get worse.

I've been untraining myself of that tendency since I was introduced to the Seth materials, but I'm still a work in progress. I can understand the logical reason the human brain explores all possible outcomes in order to be prepared—foresight—but the "you think things are bad now, just wait" or "the worst is yet to come" way of thinking seems so common.

Hi Deb,

Thanks for your comments here, I wasn't sure if you were talking about the Seth quote or something else.  If I've have been paying more attention, I would have realized that I referenced this quote in a prior message.   :)

Regarding where we come up with the idea that things will always get worse, I'm not sure about that. However, true story, for myself, just a few years before discovering Seth, I had come to the conclusion that its always better to anticipate the worst, rather than hope for the best. My reasoning for this being that this way, you won't be let down so much when the things that you want to occur, don't actually occur. 

I was really shocked by Seth's idea that, "you create your reality". I had some serious doubts about that idea. I thought, "No, life can't really possibly work that way, can it?" It was some years before I actually tried it out to see if it works and in doing so, I discovered that it really does work. 

-jbseth

JB,

I know a woman who justified her constant pessimism the same way you used to... Saying that it would lessen the impact if things don't work out as desired.

Others may simply say that they want to be realistic.

Of course, the problem with this way of thinking is that reality is what you make it, as our favourite disembodied philosopher reminded us so persistingly. So negative expectations tend to lead to negative results.

Interestingly, somewhere in The Individual and the Nature of Mass Consciousness, Seth states that positive thoughts get manifested more easily than negative ones. Now that's positive thinking for you!  :)

Hi Michael, jbSeth and All!

Such a relief to hear and to know that "positive expectation" works for you guys! It works for me too!

I know that trying to convince those who are of different opinion ("bad gets worse, life happens, etc") - is useless. But at least, since telepathy works, "you create your reality"  philosophy of people who live by it - is "in the air", so to say. And it affects the mass reality. 

jbseth,

Special thanks for the long quote in blue!

Hi All, 

I just came across this video today and thought that I would share it here in the forum.

The topic of this video is the COVID vaccine and the potential risks that you may be taking by getting vaccinated with it.

I don't know if there are any people here, perhaps LarryH for example , who are very informed about some of this and can talk to whether they think anything being said here is true or not, but that would be interesting.



Like a lot of things on the internet today, I can't attest to the "truth" to what's being said here. But what little I do know about human physiology, RNA, and what not, what this doctor seems to be saying here, may be legitimate.

These people hosting this video are "Christian" and so I don't know how much this may bias what's being said here. I also wondered a little about why the doctor went on a soapbox about how children are being harmed by the way that society has been affecting them via things like covid masks, and this sort of thing.

-jbseth


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iaKAWWGyWI

Thanks for this!

I've been reading a few articles over the past few months talking about how the vaccines are not a true vaccine, they're gene therapy. These are the two vaccines manufactured in the US (Moderna & Pfizer). The Astrazenica one in England is more of a regular vaccine as we understand them.

I also don't know what to believe any more, I read so many different things and everyone accuses each other of fake or misleading news or just plain lies. And bless Facebook for protecting us from ourselves—last week someone on a chicken group made a post about a sick new chick, and Facebook flagged the post. Lol. Apparently FB thought the chick should have gotten the covid vaccine instead of the poultry one.

Any way, back to the gene therapy. One doctor had said it was something used in cancer treatment and it sounded kind of harsh, which would explain side effects. But I didn't understand how this treatment could make a person have antibodies to covid, since the treatment is not injecting neutralized covid dna (or however that works). This is the first thing I've seen that explains why the rDNA vaccines would work.

I'm not a Christian, as you all know, but I don't think that's driving her mindset. Christians have more of a problem with vaccines that are cultured with cells harvested from aborted fetuses, from what I've heard—viruses can't survive very long without a host. They used to use fertilized chicken eggs to develop vaccines when I was a kid, then suddenly people were becoming allergic to eggs. I don't know what type of tissue, if any, is involved in these two vaccines.

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, my son received all the required vaccines during his childhood and developed a chronic illness at age 6. Which is one of the ones listed in the paperwork for the MMRI vaccines, but parents aren't told that when the doctor or the educational system of government says your kid must be vaccinated or they are not welcome or will die, and it would be all your fault. I was all about keeping my son alive. My son almost died a couple of times due to his illness. But he's never had measles, mumps or rubella, praise the lord, lol.

On the other hand, I never had a vaccine growing up, other than polio, and then hepatitis as an adult. I had all what were then the "normal" childhood illnesses and survived. When I was growing up kids did not have all the food allergies, autoimmune diseases, and other health issues kids these days have. I have to wonder what's up with that.

I don't know who this Dr. Tenpenny is (cool name, though), and I'm not a doctor or virologist or anything like that, but I'm glad to patiently observe what's going on with others. I know a few people who got the shots, and had side effects. If we get to the point where we can't travel, or go to the movies or shop without a covid vaccine passport, then I'll get it. But I don't feel it's going to come to that.

PS I saw an article today that a woman had a vaccine during pregnancy, and gave birth to a baby that had covid antibodies. That's great, but I've also read that the covid virus has never been isolated, so... ?

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18331#msg%2018331)
I know a few people who got the shots, and had side effects. If we get to the point where we can't travel, or go to the movies or shop without a covid vaccine passport, then I'll get it. But I don't feel it's going to come to that.

Deb, I understand your concerns about the vaccine. I had the first dose of the Pfizer vaccine. I felt a bit feverish for 2 days, and the injection site was itchy for 2 weeks. I felt that it was a "social obligation" to accept the vaccine (In the UK everyone is on a central computer, so Big Brother knows what is going on! The vaccine is not compulsory here).

Well, the video has been "removed for violating YouTube's terms of service". I guess I came too late to the party.

I got my second Pfizer vaccine yesterday. Side effects both times have been sore shoulder, slight fatigue, and general sensitivity in joints. It lasted 2-3 days after the first vaccine. Side effects are supposed to indicate that the vaccine is working. One of my daughters has been designated an essential worker and got the J & J vaccine Sunday. She had a headache for 2 days. The other daughter is pregnant and is trying to get into a study for vaccinating women while pregnant. She researches the hell out of everything, so I trust that she is doing what her research suggests would be prudent. My ex got the Moderna vaccine and had no side effects.

Whatever one concludes about vaccines from reading the Seth material, I am not sure it can be applied to the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, since the technology used is very different from that typically used when Seth was around.

Hi All, 

Wow, it appears that Deb and I just got in under the wire. I just saw this video yesterday for the first time myself.  I'll try to capture, as much as I can recall, of what was on this video. I'm pretty sure that I won't get it all correct but here's what I recall


The video was called "A Shot in the Dark" and it was hosted by a woman who hosts a "Christian" based video site.  In this video, this host contacted a doctor; I don't recall exactly which kind of doctor she was, and then spent about 25 minutes talking to her (the doctor).

This doctor said that somewhere back around the year 2000, she had been invited to participate in a group / conference on "vaccines". She told us that in this group / conference, she learned a lot of interesting things about vaccines and as a result of this, she has he has been participating with this group for some +18 years now. This doctor tells us that there are some issues, with some vaccines.

This doctor then talked about the coronavirus. The various types of coronaviruses themselves (not COVID-19) have been known to exist for about 60 years. People have been trying to develop vaccines for them since at least the year 2,000. So far, every attempt to do so, has not been approved by the approving agencies (AMA?). There has been problems with the vaccines that have been developed to date. None of them worked correctly, and nobody understands any of the possible long term effects.


In this video, this doctor talked about all 3 vaccines that are being developed for COVID-19. These are the vaccines by Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson and Johnson. I don't remember the specific details that she talked about for each one of them, but there were some differences. What I've written below is a general understanding that I got from this video about the issues with this vaccine.


In developing the COVID-19 vaccine, they have removed some RNA from the virus.
Then they placed this RNA material into a lipid shell. This lipid shell comes from the cell wall of the eye cells gathered from dead fetal material. This lipid shell RNA material is the basis of this vaccine.

They then inject these RNA loaded lipid shells into your body via the vaccine.

What's supposed to happen is something like this. These lipid shells attach to your bodies' cells and the wall of your bodies cells open up and the RNA gets injected into the cell. Somewhere out of this, and I got kind of lost here, I believe the cells create new viruses and this doctor called these spikes.   Your body then recognizes these spikes as something that needs to be eliminated and develops anti-bodies that attack them.  In this way, your body builds up antibodies to this virus, which then provides us with an immunity to the COVID-19 virus. Then, the next time that the COVID-19 viruses come along, your body has the antibodies ready to fight it off and protect you from this disease.


The issues I heard from this doctor partly have to do with the lipid shells themselves and partly to do with these "spikes".  From what I understand, they have never created a vaccine using either these specific types of lipid shells and this injected RNA material. They don't really know, how the human body will react to these lipid shells. The body may not react as we expect.

Furthermore, then there's these spikes. Apparently they have tested some of them out on various human body materials. She said something about "wells" that were created and in these wells they placed material from the human body. For example, liver material in one, heart material in another, brain material in another, etc.  They created 50 of these wells and then placed human body material in each. Next they put a serum containing these spikes into each one of these wells and observed what happened. This doctor then said that the antibodies in about half of these wells not only destroyed these spikes, but they also destroyed the human body material as well. One of these that was destroyed contained liver material, one contains heart material and I think she mentioned one or two more by name.

From this then, she said that they believe that this vaccine may cause people to develop some extremely serious human auto-immunity response type problems. In short the anti-bodies that your body develops to fight this vaccine may attack and destroy your heart and/or your liver for example.

This doctor said that there have already been 1200 deaths from this vaccine so far.


She also said that many people have been experiencing extreme fatigue as a symptom of this vaccine.  She said that there is some evidence that this vaccine or the antibodies that develop from it have been affecting the mitochondria within the cells. She talked about how the mitochondria are the source of the fuel that powers our cells. Kind of like how gasoline is the fuel that powers our automobiles.  She said that if the mitochondria are being effected, his could definitely explain this fatigue.




To be clear, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom here. I'm just passing on the information that was mentioned in this video.

As I said previously, in today's world, who knows what videos that you see on the internet you should or shouldn't believe.

For me personally, I'm inclined to stick with Seth who tells us that our "beliefs" are very powerful. We can believe ourselves right into poor health if we focus on that. However, we can also believe ourselves into good health just as well.

-jbseth

I forgot to mention that my 91-year-old mom (with dementia) along with 4-5 other senior care residents tested positive two weeks after getting their first Pfizer vaccine. She never had symptoms and tested negative two weeks after that. I presume she was somewhat protected from the single vaccine. She may have also been protected from symptoms by not being told that she had tested positive. I made sure not to mention it until she tested negative and had the second vaccine.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18333#msg18333)
Whatever one concludes about vaccines from reading the Seth material, I am not sure it can be applied to the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines, since the technology used is very different from that typically used when Seth was around.

Hi LarryH and All,
But still, Seth opinion about vaccines was helpful. And doesn't Seth live in "spacious present" and he meant for us to benefit in our "now" from his knowledge?

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18335#msg18335)
I made sure not to mention it until she tested negative and had the second vaccine.

And it was definitely a wise decision. Worries and fears instilled by the new knowledge could only weaken the body that is already weakened with age and worry.

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18334#msg18334)
To be clear, I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom here. I'm just passing on the information that was mentioned in this video.

Thank you jbseth for the detailed description. An interesting info for my curious mind, though I must confess I stopped hunting for such information lately. Just look at what comes by - as an interested observer.
True, we can believe ourselves into health or disease. 

And as for "death from vaccine"... Vaccine must not be the cause here, but an instrument. As a disease or a fatal accident are ways the person "choses" to die.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18331#msg18331)
If we get to the point where we can't travel, or go to the movies or shop without a covid vaccine passport, then I'll get it. But I don't feel it's going to come to that.

Yes, Deb, I feel the same. it will not come to that. Herd immunity might well help us out here - and keep the regulating bodies happy. (Though if we are black sheep, we are not "a herd").

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18378#msg18378)
True, we can believe ourselves into health or disease. 

Marianna, yes that is the essence of the Seth teaching.

Quote from: Marianna (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18379#msg18379)
Herd immunity might well help us out here - and keep the regulating bodies happy. (Though if we are black sheep, we are not "a herd").

We black sheep will have flock immunity.  ;D Or maybe we already do, with Seth's teachings being a vaccine of beliefs.  ;)

Looks like I'm late to the game on this thread.  I see it was political in the beginning.  I skipped past all of that and am glad for it.  I am so damned sick of politics.  I did see the post about the video on youtube.  There has been a directed effort to discredit science through this entire pandemic and I am always leery of videos and information that does not come from well documented scientific sources and am especially leery of anything that comes from religious sources.  Anyone can make a video that seems to know what it's talking about these days.  There's a ton of antivaxxer propaganda out there that is just plain anti-science.  I see this vaccine, like all others, as a choice freely made.  The problem I have with misinformation is that it makes it difficult to choose.  All choices should be made based on factual information.  Choose vaccine or choose no vaccine, but make your choice in an educated manner and not based on random internet videos.  And yes, I realize the use of "factual information" is a loaded statement on a Seth group.

The one thing that caught my eye is that there have been 1200 deaths so far from these mRNA vaccines.  I'd like to see an actual source on that number.  I'm not saying it isn't true, but some random video from a Christian based video site on youtube is not proof of anything at all, except that someone knows how to work a video camera.

I have known quite a few people who got the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.  Some had side effects and some didn't.  None of the side effects were anything other than mild and only lasted one day.  Nobody had long term fatigue.  Nobody got sick.  Nobody had any regrets on doing it based on the day of side effects.  I understand that this is my experience with talking to a very small portion of the population that has had it.  I never fall into the "my experience reflects and defines the state of the entire world" trap that so many people seem to fall into these days.

I've only ever had one genetics class in college and though it wasn't that long ago, my memory of it is slipping.

The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA to get the immune system to respond.  mRNA, known as messenger RNA is basically a set of instructions that the body uses to create proteins.  In the case of the vaccines, the mRNA is telling the body to make a protein spike that is unique to COVID-19.  This prompts the body to form an immune response and trains the body to fight the actual virus.  Because only the protein spike is created and nothing else having to do with COVID-19, there is no danger of infection.  The spike itself is harmless but it is an antigen and has the effect of forcing a strong immune response that will help the body fight an actual COVID-19 infection, should one occur.  In this way it's like any other vaccine with the goal of teaching the body to fight a disease without actually getting the disease.  It's just uses a different method of getting there.

There is concern on the internet, largely spread by people who know just enough to be dangerous to themselves and others, that the vaccine can damage DNA.  mRNA works in one direction.  It takes instructions encoded in DNA and produces proteins.  It doesn't affect DNA in any way.  It can't.  mRNA reads DNA and creates proteins.  It doesn't do anything to DNA.  mRNA is basically a protein factory.  It doesn't stick around once its used.  After it's used, it is destroyed.

J&J is using DNA fragments to basically accomplish the same thing.  The fragments are DNA from COVID-19 that don't cause infection but stimulate a strong immune response but are not in themselves harmful.  The delivery system is a disabled adenovirus.  Adenoviruses can readily infect a host.  Because it's disabled, there's no risk of infection and all it does is deliver the DNA fragment that will stimulate the immune response against COVID-19.

The science behind these is sound.  The body forms an immune response when it is infected.  The downside of that is that sometimes the infection can kill before the body can mount a defense.  Sometimes the disease can overwhelm the body so that it is too weak to mount a defense.  The vaccines provide the body with the piece it needs to mount the defense without the infection.  These vaccines provide the protein spike from COVID-19 that the body uses to create its antibodies without the infection that happens when someone gets COVID-19.

I don't recall there being a way for antibodies to affect the mitochondria of the cells.  Antibodies kill cells that they're targeted for.  It's their job.  If it were targeting normal human cells, I think that there would be a lot of people dying from it.  And as for the antibodies destroying heart and liver cells.  Has there been any legitimate proof of this at all?

Like I said, I probably have forgotten more about genetics than I remember at this point.  I did get an A in the course and found it to be fascinating.  That's likely how I remember as much as I do.  But I am not a geneticist or a biologist and don't claim to be one.  So take all of the speculation with a grain of salt.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18382#msg18382)
We black sheep will have flock immunity.

Yes Deb, I like "flock immunity" better. It feels cozy and friendly. Yes, we do have immunity of beliefs. I surely can judge from my experience only, but never once since last March did I feel threatened by covid virus. So, Seth explanation definitely helped.

At the risk of sounding political, given the fact that the vast majority of high-profile politicians who got Covid have been republicans, where does belief fit in for them? Many of them claimed to not "believe" in wearing masks. Many of them repeated one influential person's claim that there was nothing to worry about, that masks looked silly, etc. They went to his rallies and indoor meetings without masks and later got sick, and some, like Herman Cain, even died. What did they believe? Did their fear of T****'s wrath prevent them from the simple act of putting a cloth over their faces? Did they fear their constituents, many of whom were swayed by the same person? For them, was it politically incorrect to follow basic protective measures? I can only assume that they did fear the illness, but their fear of the political consequences of not toeing the line allowed the fear of the illness to create an opening for that illness.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18398#msg18398)
At the risk of sounding political, given the fact that the vast majority of high-profile politicians who got Covid have been republicans, where does belief fit in for them? Many of them claimed to not "believe" in wearing masks. Many of them repeated one influential person's claim that there was nothing to worry about, that masks looked silly, etc. They went to his rallies and indoor meetings without masks and later got sick, and some, like Herman Cain, even died. What did they believe? Did their fear of T****'s wrath prevent them from the simple act of putting a cloth over their faces? Did they fear their constituents, many of whom were swayed by the same person? For them, was it politically incorrect to follow basic protective measures? I can only assume that they did fear the illness, but their fear of the political consequences of not toeing the line allowed the fear of the illness to create an opening for that illness.

Or did they suffer from some "rebel without a clue" idea.  I don't understand any of it.  I definitely don't understand how a simple piece of cloth became a symbol of oppression.  I think some people spend their entire lives looking for oppression and they find it.  And then there are the "ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do" types.

There is a lot of fear and this is, to me, a fear based society that we live in.  I often wonder what their last thoughts were as the passed on.  Something to the effect of "well, that was a mistake", I'd imagine.  Although I did hear stories of people who were denying that it even existed with their last dying breath.

Quote from: usmaak (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18401#msg18401)
I often wonder what their last thoughts were as the passed on. 

I've been reading about Sylvia Plath:

"Dying
Is an art, like everything else.   
I do it exceptionally well."

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49000/lady-lazarus

Hi All,

Today in the news, both the CDC and the FDA are recommending a pause in the use of the Johnson & Johnson COVID 19 vaccine.  The issue here seems to be related to a blood clot concern.

This apparently is different than the Pfizer and Moderna vaccine concern that was mentioned in the video that I posted here back in reply #128 and talked about in reply #132 above.

I don't know whether there are any people here who have held off on getting a vaccine, but if you have, you might find this information interesting.   



https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/13/health/johnson-vaccine-pause-cdc-fda/index.html

-jbseth

Yep, same issue with the AstraZenica vaccine in Europe, several countries deciding to stop using it and then changing their minds. From what I've read (don't know what is the truth any more), there have not been any real trials or studies on any of the vaccines because things were rushed under an emergency situation, so I guess the general public are the real trials. I've also read that vaccine manufacturers have been given complete immunity in cases of injury or death... which is nothing new.

I just found out yesterday my son (26) got the J&J vaccine on Friday. He was bed ridden for two days with pain, fever, chills, body aches, etc. The blood clot issues apparently take a week to two weeks to present, but he is confident he's perfectly safe. He also thinks he had covid in January, which could be why he had such a strong reaction. But I think the CDC said even if you've had covid and have the antibodies, you should still get the vaccine. And even then, you're not out of the woods.  :-\

Today I came across an article about people being able to change their deceased loved one's cause of death on the death certificate to covid if they suspect it could have been involved. My first thought was, how many people will glom onto that opportunity in order to make some extra money? My second thought was, if someone dies from a covid vaccine, can that also be considered a covid death? Let's see if we can pad those covid numbers a little more...

Sorry, my mind makes me question and process everything.

I haven't fact-checked the article yet, but here it is. https://justthenews.com/government/congress/relatives-able-edit-death-certificates-loved-ones-fema-funeral-reimbursement

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18595#msg18595)
he is confident he's perfectly safe.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Seth tells us that what we believe, can and does have a major impact on our reality. It has been my experience in regards to Seth that this concept really does have some validity to it.

In regards to your son being confident that he's perfectly safe, we can visualize this for him as well and see him safe.  


I think that the one thing that shocked me the most, was the display behind the man in the video at the CNN website.  This display contained the following information.

Coronavirus Pandemic in the United States.

Total Cases:                    31 Million
Total Deaths:                 563 Thousand
Vaccines Distributed:      238 Million
Vaccines Administered:   190 Million


Wow, have they already administered 190 million vaccines here in the US.
That number really surprised me.

-jbseth

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18595#msg18595)
Yep, same issue with the AstraZenica vaccine in Europe, several countries deciding to stop using it and then changing their minds. From what I've read (don't know what is the truth any more), there have not been any real trials or studies on any of the vaccines because things were rushed under an emergency situation, so I guess the general public are the real trials. I've also read that vaccine manufacturers have been given complete immunity in cases of injury or death... which is nothing new.

Yup.  Emergency authorization is not anything like the normal trials that vaccines get.  They usually take years of careful study to be approved.  They did some trials but it feels very rushed.  We're all part of some grand experiment now, I suppose.  Vaccine trials done on the general public.

I heard that the blood clot issues only affects women, though I suppose I could have that wrong.

I got my first Pfizer vaccine on Saturday.  Other than a sore arm, I've had no side effects.  If there are any for the Pfizer vaccine, I hope for something like super speed or teleportation.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18595#msg18595)
The blood clot issues apparently take a week to two weeks to present, but he is confident he's perfectly safe

Deb, clearly if your son is confident he is safe, he WILL be safe. My wife and I have now had the two doses of the Pfizer Biontech vaccine.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18595#msg18595)
Today I came across an article about people being able to change their deceased loved one's cause of death on the death certificate to covid if they suspect it could have been involved. My first thought was, how many people will glom onto that opportunity in order to make some extra money?

It appeared from the linked article that this is primarily to address the early deaths before we even knew much about Covid, what it was and how it could trigger other problems that could be fatal. The article indicated that there had to be some logic to the change in cause of death, but it seemed to leave open the possibility of abuse. That being said, the source has a strong political bias based on the headlines of other articles, so I'm not sure we can trust its implications.

"A cure for cancer could be made using COVID vaccine technology"
https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/a-cure-for-cancer-could-be-made-using-covid-vaccine-technology/ (https://www.unknowncountry.com/headline-news/a-cure-for-cancer-could-be-made-using-covid-vaccine-technology/)

Seth says that if science finds a vaccine or cure for one illness, a person who wants to die will find another way to die. He also seems to suggest that length of life is unimportant from his viewpoint. However, we in physical life tend to prefer the idea of a longer life over one that is cut short. Most of us also tend to prefer a quick death over languishing in hospitals for months before slowly suffocating or wasting away. Personally, I am not a fan of either COVID or cancer as ways of dying, preferring instead to live a vital life to the end and one day not waking up. The one person to date who has died of a blood clot "caused" by the J&J vaccine wanted to die, according to Seth. If she had not gotten the vaccine, I wonder how she would have otherwise died?

Thanks jbseth & Sena for your encouraging words about my son. I do believe in the power of the mind and beliefs.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18604#msg18604)
the source has a strong political bias based on the headlines of other articles, so I'm not sure we can trust its implications.

You've said this before when I've put up news links. Can anyone tell me what news sources you'd recommend as not having any political bias? I'd be glad to take a look.

But, just Google "$9,000 for covid death" (https://www.google.com/search?q=%249%2C000+for+covid+death&sxsrf=ALeKk02GhBGcuhAMiseXRoSvI3YEYRxgfg%3A1618406246425&ei=Zut2YLL6GMqstQb875DQAw&oq=%249%2C000+for+covid+death&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAM6BQgAEJECOggIABCxAxCDAToICC4QsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOgUIABCxAzoCCAA6BwgjEOoCECc6CwguEMcBEK8BEJMCOgUIABDJAzoGCAAQFhAeOgkIABDJAxAWEB46BggAEA0QHjoFCCEQoAE6BQghEKsCOggIIRAWEB0QHlCrvAJY6OwCYMjuAmgEcAB4AIABbogBsg-SAQQyMy4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdperABCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiyxa2L6f3vAhVKVs0KHfw3BDoQ4dUDCA4&uact=5) and you all can have your pick of articles about this topic.

This is from the FEMA FAQs (https://www.fema.gov/disasters/coronavirus/economic/funeral-assistance/faq):

You may qualify (for up to $35,000) if:

"You are a U.S. citizen, non-citizen national, or qualified alien who paid for funeral expenses after January 20, 2020, and

The funeral expenses were for an individual whose death in the United States, territories or the District of Columbia, may have been caused by or was likely the result of COVID-19."

The FAQs also tell you what to do if the death certificate didn't identify COVID-19 as the likely cause of death. So that does seem to open the door to fraud. There's already an issue with opportunists contacting people and offering to "help" them get their money.

The thing I'm curious about is that a lot of people die every day from a variety of causes (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm), and their families do not get federal funeral assistance—why for just for covid? While pharmaceutical companies have "full immunity" from people that are injured or die from their vaccines. Hah, there's double immunity in those vaccines! I just don't get the logic of helping out families of covid deaths and no others. Maybe we also need to take a look at skyrocketing funeral expenses!

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18605#msg18605)
Seth says that if science finds a vaccine or cure for one illness, a person who wants to die will find another way to die.... The one person to date who has died of a blood clot "caused" by the J&J vaccine wanted to die, according to Seth. If she had not gotten the vaccine, I wonder how she would have otherwise died?

Yep, that's what we've really needed to keep in mind about all of this. Also, do they know for sure she died by vaccine? Or is a matter of correlation vs. causation? Apparently 7M+ doses of the J&J vaccine have been given (https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations). Recently six people had blood clots, one person died. Blood clots in the general public (https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dvt/data.html#:~:text=The%20precise%20number%20of%20people,year%20in%20the%20United%20States.) are not that uncommon, 1-2 per 1,000 a year, and most people don't even know they have them. Someone in my family has one his leg, from the groin to mid-calf, and only recently found out because of some swelling in the leg. A clot that large doesn't develop over night... and no J&J vaccine involved. Six instances of blood clots in vaccine recipients seems to be less than our normal national average.

According to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html):

"Over 189 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 12, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 3,005 reports of death (0.00158%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS."

So I also find it interesting that while there have been 3,000+ reported deaths of people after getting the vaccine, only J&J gets "paused."

On a lighter note, I was in the mall the other day and saw that the "Covid Essentials" store is closed. I took that as a good omen. They probably use the empty store as a vaccination site. ;)

Deb, I think that the clots related to J&J are a "rare" form, and this is what made them stand out from the statistics. Other causes of death need to be compared to what would be statistically expected in that population, so I am not surprised that other causes of death have not been found so far to have been triggered by the vaccines.

Per one of your links above, "It is possible to change or amend a death certificate. This process starts with contacting the person who certified the death. This may be a treating doctor, a coroner or a medical examiner, and their name and address is on the death certificate. Applicants may present evidence to them to support the claim the death was attributable to COVID-19."

So if someone wants to commit fraud, they have to get one of those professionals to cooperate in the fraud. Also, the comment about "up to $35,000" (actually $35,500) applies if someone was responsible for the costs of multiple funerals. The limit is $9,000 for one funeral. I agree with you though that there does not seem to be much logic in singling out this one cause of death for reimbursement.

Regarding my comments about biased sources, I just stay away from sources that show a strong bias, right or left. Sometimes it's not that easy, but when one can read several headlines from one source and see a clear pattern of bias, I just don't give it much credibility. It does not mean that what this source says about this subject is not true, but it should show up in the same manner in less biased sources if true (and it appears it has). There is a common belief that mainstream media is typically left-leaning, but I find that belief to be driven by the largely exteme-right wing radio talk show hosts, a very powerful component of the media itself. There are also way too many fly-by-night online sources that focus on fear-mongering and hate (much like the aforementioned radio talk show hosts). I find the national news shows that we get on the three major networks in the early evening extremely balanced. It's hard to tell about CNN, but I generally stay away from FOX News and MSNBC. The Wall Street Journal has a right-middle slant, and the Washington Post and NY Times have a left-middle slant. But generally, I trust those sources.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18611#msg18611)
So if someone wants to commit fraud, they have to get one of those professionals to cooperate in the fraud.

I wonder if that would be hard to do, since the CDC last year released guidelines where if covid was suspected, with or without testing, or if the patient could have possibly been exposed to covid, should considered a covid death seemingly regardless of what else was going on with the patient—doctor's discretion. Then there is the incentive of extra money going to hospitals for covid deaths. There's a lot about this whole pandemic I'll never know—like a lot of things in life. Hah, I was once called "the woman who wants to know everything" by a college professor. I didn't know why she said that at the time, but I do now.

Thanks for the news recommendations. I keep an eye out for opinion vs. news, and prefer sources that link to references for their articles. News sources tend to cater to their audiences, and I understand they are businesses. Also, not everyone wants unbiased news, people are more comfortable with what fits best with their beliefs.

Hi All,

Back about a month ago, (March 17, 2021) I posted a "YouTube" video called, "A Shot in the Dark", which was about a doctor who expressed some concerns having to do with the COVID vaccine (see reply 128 and 132 here). On the same day that I posted this video, it was pulled down by YouTube for not meeting their rules.

Today I was poking around on the internet and I was trying to find out what I could about that video. I was trying to figure out, what was the story having to do with why specifically this video was pulled.

In doing this poking around, I came across the names of two people who might have been the doctor in that video. The first person was named Judy Mikovits. Apparently, Judy Mikovits was a researcher and was one of several researchers who published a research paper indicating that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome was created by a mouse related retrovirus (or something like this) back in 2009.  Unfortunately for her, their research results were found to be unrepeatable when attempts at duplication were made. 

Apparently ever since, Ms. Mikovits has been causing problems in the research arena, by making claims that her results were valid and the powers that be have been pushing her results and her, under the carpet. She apparently has written a couple of books, "Plague" and "Plague of Corruption," and apparently she is connected to a video called "Plandemic" that has been removed from the internet because of its "COVID-19" misinformation.

The trailer to this 1 hour + video, was said to be 26 minutes long, and was also removed from the internet.  I couldn't tell if this 26 minute trailer was the "A Shot in the Dark" video, that I saw, but this Shot in the Dark video I saw was about 25 minutes long.  And so I looked that on the internet for images of this Judy Mikovits and can say that she does not look like the doctor who was talking in the "A Shot in the Dark" video that I saw. I have no idea whether this video that I saw was this 26 minute trailer that they were talking about here or not.  As a result of this, I did some more poking around on the internet. 

Somewhere along the line, I came across the name of someone called Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, who apparently is a known anti-vaxxer. This doctor, Sherri Tenpenny, is associated with the former mayor of Neveda City, CA, a Reinette Senum, and they both participated in a 1 hour video warning people of the potential dangers of the coronavirus vaccine.  This also isn't the video that I saw, but when I looked up images of this Dr. Sherri Tenpenny, I am pretty sure that she is the doctor that was warning people about the COVID vaccine in the "A Shot in the Dark" video that I did see.

After doing a little more digging around on the internet about her, I came across a really interesting "Snopes" article that seemed to be all about her and her claims. It actually seems pretty good to me and it does seem to address many of the claims that she made in this video.

Unfortunately, this "Snopes" article does get into this subject, in pretty good detail and it is quite long so it's a slow read. The other thing is that I don't think that anything that's discussed here, necessarily does or doesn't apply to the Johnson and Johnson vaccine and its recent issues.

I've only read this Snopes article through once and so I'm going to read it again.  There were some points that I caught where they seemed to say things like this COVID vaccine is "suppose to" do such and such. My question and my concern here is this, well what happens if it doesn't actually do such and such? 

Here's the link to the Snopes article:


https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/vaccine-lung-damage/


-jbseth

Hi All,

Hi Jbseth,

I remember you posted the vid. I thought your description of the Dr matched Dr. Carrie Madej.
She has done multiple interviews on other people's YouTube channels about the dangers of the vaccine, as well as about what she feels CV19 is about. All her interviews get taken down by YouTube. So I didn't bother posting about her.

You may be able to find some of these interviews on Bitchute, Rokfin, Brighteon, and other such platforms.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you don't get the vaccine, you can get sick from COVID.  The current death toll in the US from COVID is 578,397.

If you do get the vaccine then there could be side effects.  Emergency authorization is not the same thing as thoroughly tested and vetted through years of research.  It's more of a "holy crap, we gotta do something" type of thing.

The vaccine is supposed to help the immune cells in the body create the protein spike used by COVID to infect cells.  It is only the spike and not the entire virus.  The body treats it like the virus and builds and immune response.  mRNA and DNA vaccines achieve this goal in different ways.  Killed virus vaccines achieve the same thing, but again, in a different way.

The tricky thing (I'd imagine) with mRNA vaccines is that the immune cells in the body take the instructions and manufacture the proteins needed for the spike.  I wonder if there's a chance that in some cases, the body could manufacture something other than the spike. A specific sequence of nucleotides creates a specific protein and proteins are the building blocks of, well, everything.  I wonder, if, in some cases, the body might manufacture different proteins that are (hopefully) harmless but also not the spike that is needed to stimulate the immune response.

I took genetics last year to finish my degree but that was a whole year ago and the old memory ain't what it used to be.  Here's a CDC document about mRNA vaccines.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

I think that we are all part of one big experiment.  I'd have preferred the old fashioned vaccines, similar to what we get for flu every year.  At least it's tried and true.  If mRNA vaccines don't prove to be an unmitigated disaster, they might be a bright future for their use in other areas.

Just to put the blood clot issue into perspective, so far, there are less than 1 in a million J&J vaccinations that have caused blood clots. Birth control pills can cause blood clots at the rate of 1 in 1,000 users. So that means (regarding this particular risk) that birth control pills are 1,000 times more dangerous than the J&J vaccine.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18331#msg18331)
I don't know who this Dr. Tenpenny is (cool name, though)

It was Tenpenny, I had commented on her name.

So I heard today that 5,800 people have caught Covid so far, despite being vaccinated. The vaccines take maybe 30 days to be fully effective, probably depending on which one you have, and they're not 100% effective. And there are side effects and some deaths, but relatively small amounts compared to how many vaccines have been given. It's all comes down to choice, at least at this point. I have a friend who is going on a cruise in about a year, and the cruise line requires all employees and travelers to have been fully vaccinated.

I don't know what the J&J vaccine is like, I suppose I should look up the details. The two others are the mRNA ones. The Euro AstraZenica is supposedly more like typical vaccines and is suspected of causing blood clots, so I'm wonder if the J&J shot is similar to the AZ one.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18621#msg18621)

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18331#msg18331)
I don't know who this Dr. Tenpenny is (cool name, though)

It was Tenpenny, I had commented on her name.

So I heard today that 5,800 people have caught Covid so far, despite being vaccinated. The vaccines take maybe 30 days to be fully effective, probably depending on which one you have, and they're not 100% effective. And there are side effects and some deaths, but relatively small amounts compared to how many vaccines have been given. It's all comes down to choice, at least at this point. I have a friend who is going on a cruise in about a year, and the cruise line requires all employees and travelers to have been fully vaccinated.

I don't know what the J&J vaccine is like, I suppose I should look up the details. The two others are the mRNA ones. The Euro AstraZenica is supposedly more like typical vaccines and is suspected of causing blood clots, so I'm wonder if the J&J shot is similar to the AZ one.

J&J is a DNA fragment inside of a deactivated Adenovirus.  It is using the gene for the protein spike.

Quote from: usmaak (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18622#msg18622)
J&J is a DNA fragment inside of a deactivated Adenovirus.  It is using the gene for the protein spike.

Thanks. Then it does sound more like the AstraZenica one. Both having the blood clot issues. Hmmmm.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18621#msg18621)
So I heard today that 5,800 people have caught Covid so far, despite being vaccinated. The vaccines take maybe 30 days to be fully effective, probably depending on which one you have, and they're not 100% effective

It's been well-publicized that the two major vaccines in the U.S. are 94 and 95% effective, though they are probably less effective for the new strains. My 91-year-old mom tested positive two weeks after her first Pfizer vaccine, but had no symptoms and tested negative two weeks after that.

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18624#msg18624)

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18621#msg18621)
So I heard today that 5,800 people have caught Covid so far, despite being vaccinated. The vaccines take maybe 30 days to be fully effective, probably depending on which one you have, and they're not 100% effective

It's been well-publicized that the two major vaccines in the U.S. are 94 and 95% effective, though they are probably less effective for the new strains. My 91-year-old mom tested positive two weeks after her first Pfizer vaccine, but had no symptoms and tested negative two weeks after that.

Wow, 91, bless her heart. Both my parents escaped this physical existence while I was in my 20s (not at the same time).

Would you consider she may have had a false positive on the test? I've read a lot of articles that the rapid test tests for exosomes and are not covid-specific. The immune system would be affected by a vaccination and so exosomes would naturally be present.

Just trying to make sense out of everything.  :-\

Hi All,

Here's a summary of the Snopes article just in case anyone might be interested but didn't' have the time to read it.


Sometime in the past, there was a vaccine that was developed for SARS and lab animals were given this vaccine. At first the results looked good, but then everything changed and animals died. This was investigated and it was discovered that after getting the vaccine, the animals own immune systems started to aggressively attack their own lungs and this killed them. This phenomenon is called "immunopathology".

The basic issue was this: The vaccine appeared to work at first in terms of controlling early infections and creating an immune response. However, when animals who had been vaccinated were exposed to either SARS or MERS following the vaccination, their immune systems went into overdrive, causing massive and sometimes fatal damage to the lungs.

This information was documented in a 2012 report.  There was also a 2019 report that indicated that there were some severe results that occurred as a result of other SARS and MERS vaccines



Researchers have come to understand that the reason for these reactions, come, from the peculiarities of the coronaviruses themselves. Interactions between coronavirus and the immune system can block part of the immune systems Th-2 cell response, which could send the immune system into overdrive, leading to immunopathology in the lungs.

In addition to this, this Snopes report says that "severe cases of COVID-19 often present elements of immune-system-mediated damage to lung tissue."

(I find this specific comment to be quite interesting. I'm assuming that most of these people who had these severe cases, didn't have the COVID vaccine and if that's true, then why did they have this immune system response to COVID?)

Another "proposed" mechanism for this lung damage is something called ADE (Antibody-Dependent Enhancement). In basic terms, this ADE mechanism occurs when the antibodies created to fight these coronaviruses don't bind to them strong enough. When this occurs, they don't destroy the viral particles and this actually ends up letting the virus infect cells, which could make the infection much more severe.


Along with this, apparently there are at least two types of body immune system responses.

A Th-2 immune system response results in many of the conditions that caused the immunopathology including the blocking or inhibiting anti-inflammatory immune functions and the creation of a storm of infection-fighting cytokines that actively attack the lung.

A Th-1 system immune response results in a different and much better scenario.

Thanks in part to the work of the researchers, vaccine developers were aware that any COVID-19 vaccine they developed required a Th-1 immune system response with little to no Th-2 response.

The Snopes article then says that a vaccine created that includes these features, would overcome the challenges presented in early coronavirus vaccine trials.

Yea, in theory it should, provided that there are also no other issues that result in developing this vaccine in just this unique way.  Along with this, what happens if it turns out that the Th-2 immune response, wasn't adequately suppressed by this vaccine? Does this pose any sort of ""immunopathological" risk to anyone, the next time that they are exposed to the COVID virus?

From what I can tell from this article, it sounds to me like the general public is the test case for the proof that this virus actually works and doesn't contain any other risks.



-jbseth

I wonder what the animal trials looked like.  All discussion of ethics aside, animals are used in testing for a variety of reasons.  They are a near genetic match for humans.  Their lifespan is a lot shorter and diseases manifest more quickly, so the results of trials are seen a lot more quickly than they would be in humans.  If they've been testing this vaccine technology for a year, I wonder if they've seen this kind of lung damage in the animals that they might have tested on earlier.

Also, I wonder if I should have just skipped the vaccine. 

If you're super science oriented and like reading study information, there's this very long article on the NIH site.  I didn't understand much about it but it does discuss some of the stuff in the snopes article on a more scientific level

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7733686/

It talks about the challenges with skewing vaccines to a Th1 response, instead of a Th2 response.  A strong Th2 response is what causes immunopathology.

At the start of the article is a discussion of the Th1 and Th2 responses and SARS-CoV-2, AKA COVID-19

An important consideration for the design of SARS-CoV-2 vaccines is the promotion of a type-1 helper T cell (Th1) response, to avoid immunopathology. Several groups demonstrated that inactivated SARS-CoV vaccines could elicit Th2 response-associated immune pathology in the lungs following either viral challenge or challenge in immune-senescent mice [33,34]. Similar results were observed in mice vaccinated with the SARS-CoV nucleocapsid (N) protein, which failed to protect from SARS-CoV replication and induced eosinophilic infiltrates into the lungs [35]. Th1/Th2 responses are a model that immunologists use to characterize helper T cell responses. A Th1 response is characterized by the production of cytokines such as interferon gamma (IFN-γ) and IL-12, whereas a Th2 response usually involves the production of IL-4 and IL-6. Many pathogens promote a Th2 response to help usurp clearance by the immune system, and indeed, serum samples from patients who are infected with SARS-CoV-2 have higher levels of Th2-associated cytokines compared to non-infected patients, suggesting that SARS-CoV-2 induces a Th2 response [36], although a Th2 response has also been shown to be largely abrogated in lymph nodes of patients who have died from COVID-19 [37]. Therefore, in developing a vaccine against the new SARS-CoV-2 virus, it may be important to skew the immune response towards a Th1 immune response, but evidence for this strategy to avoid ADE in humans has yet to emerge.

Here's the conclusion:

Overall, a wide variety of approaches are being taken to rapidly develop a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2. Due to the need to simply know the sequence of the desired antigen to begin manufacturing, viral and non-viral nucleic acid vaccines seem to be the quickest out of the gate. These plug-and-play platforms are advancing rapidly through clinical trials. Close behind are more traditional inactivated and subunit vaccines, followed by emerging technologies that apply cells or bacteria to generate potential protective responses. Spike- and RBD-binding, virus-neutralizing antibodies have been successfully raised using a myriad of approaches, and these antibodies have correlated strongly with protection from infection in multiple animal models. In most cases where it has been evaluated, vaccine candidates have been successful in inducing a Th1-skewed T cell response. While the determinants of immune pathology in COVID-19 have not been definitively determined, avoiding a Th2 skew has some theoretical basis for reducing immune pathology.

The overall effect of COVID-19 vaccine development has been a massive invigoration of the field of pandemic vaccine development. It has made real the theoretical promise of platforms which only require an antigen sequence, such as mRNA and vector-based platforms, and massively accelerated their development towards rapid Phase 3 evaluation, on a timeline never seen before for vaccines. However, it is important to note that, despite their rapid manufacturing timeline, these platforms encode for an antigen which was developed over a timeline of many years through basic research on coronavirus biology and protein engineering. Large scale investment and unprecedented mobilization of the research community have generated insight into design, manufacturing, formulation, and deployment of vaccine candidates that may pay dividends in the future when society will need to confront the next inevitable infectious disease outbreak.

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18625#msg18625)
Would you consider she may have had a false positive on the test? I've read a lot of articles that the rapid test tests for exosomes and are not covid-specific. The immune system would be affected by a vaccination and so exosomes would naturally be present.

Of approximately 30 residents and at least 9 employees at my mom's memory care facility, all of whom got vaccinated on or near the same day, 5 residents tested positive. Of those, I was told that "a few" developed COVID symptoms, and one took several weeks to recover.

The CDC website responds to the question, "After getting a COVID-19 vaccine, will I test positive for COVID-19 on a viral test?" The response: "No. None of the authorized and recommended COVID-19 vaccines cause you to test positive on viral tests, which are used to see if you have a current infection.​ Neither can any of the COVID-19 vaccines currently in clinical trials in the United States.​"

Quote from: usmaak (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18631#msg18631)
I wonder what the animal trials looked like. 

Quote from: LarryH (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18632#msg18632)
Of approximately 30 residents and at least 9 employees at my mom's memory care facility, all of whom got vaccinated on or near the same day, 5 residents tested positive. Of those, I was told that "a few" developed COVID symptoms, and one took several weeks to recover.

The CDC website responds to the question, "After getting a COVID-19 vaccine, will I test positive for COVID-19 on a viral test?" The response: "No. None of the authorized and recommended COVID-19 vaccines cause you to test positive on viral tests, which are used to see if you have a current infection. Neither can any of the COVID-19 vaccines currently in clinical trials in the United States."

Hi usmaak, Hi LarryH, Hi All,

Hi usmaak, in the Snopes article that I posted, there are words that are underlined in this article, such as "2012 study". I didn't realize this at first, but these are direct links to the 2012 study itself. There does appear to be some information about the animals studies themselves in these links.




Hi LarryH, that's really interesting.

Do you think that this might mean that there's something going on here with this vaccine, that isn't working the way that they expected it to?




-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=18633#msg18633)
Hi LarryH, that's really interesting.

Do you think that this might mean that there's something going on here with this vaccine, that isn't working the way that they expected it to?

Not at all. It takes time for the vaccines to be effective, and these people had only gotten the first vaccine. The fact that none of these elderly people had to be hospitalized, and most had mild or no symptoms indicates to me that the first vaccine provided some protection. People are not "fully" (95%) protected with the Pfizer vaccine until two weeks after the second dose.

I was freaking out a bit yesterday.  I have had tinnitus my entire life, or at least as far back as I can remember.  The last few days it has been considerably worse.  Of course a bit of searching yielded information about people getting tinnitus from the vaccine and people with tinnitus having it get much worse after taking the vaccine.  And as much as I've gotten used to it and don't notice it, I do notice when it gets louder.

Of course I also have bouts of insomnia and I've been going through one of those.  Lack of sleep also makes tinnitus worse.  I got some halfway decent sleep last night and the screeching in my left ear is back to baseline.

An unexpected side effect of covid.  :o

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/20/health/supernatural-encounters-pandemic-loved-ones-blake/index.html

Quote from: Deb (https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=19352#msg19352)
An unexpected side effect of covid.  :o

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/20/health/supernatural-encounters-pandemic-loved-ones-blake/index.html

Thanks for that link, Deb.

QuoteThe coronavirus pandemic has now killed more than 600,000 Americans. Many of us never had a chance to hug or say farewell to loved ones who died alone and isolated in hospital wards due to fears of spreading the virus.
But there is another group of pandemic survivors who say they have been granted a second chance to say goodbye. They are people like Horne who believe they've been contacted by a loved one who died from coronavirus.
These experiences can be subtle: relatives appearing in hyper-real dreams, a sudden whiff of fragrance worn by a departed loved one, or unusual behavior by animals. Other encounters are more dramatic: feeling a touch on your shoulder at night, hearing a sudden warning from a loved one, or seeing the full-bodied form of a recently departed relative appear at the foot of your bed.
These stories may sound implausible, but they are in fact part of a historical pattern. There is something in us -- or in our lost loved ones -- that won't accept not being able to say goodbye.

The Law of One view might be that these people who died "graduated" to Fourth Density, i.e. to a higher level of consciousness.