...atrocious acts...

[Mark M]

"Now some people would not fit into that mold. They would take what they could from your technology, but in conscious and spontaneous ways they retaliated -- and still do -- by exaggerating all of those human tendencies that your society has held down so well. If you can have reason without faith, then indeed, for example, you will see that there can be faith without reason. When human experience becomes shrunken in such a fashion -- compressed -- then in a fashion it also explodes at both ends, you might say.

"You have atrocious acts committed*, along with great heroism, but each are
explosive, representing sudden releases of withheld energies that have in other ways been forbidden, and so man's mass psyche expresses itself sometimes like explosive fireworks, simply because the release of pressure is necessary.

"Even your poor misguided moral/religious organization is saying in its fashion to the scientifically-oriented society: "How is faith not real, then? We'll change your laws with it. We'll turn it into power -- political power. What will you say then? We have been laughed at for so long. We will see who laughs now."

--Seth, THE MAGICAL APPROACH, Session Fourteen

*school shootings, for instance

[Mark M]

Two fundamentalisms:

If you can have reason without faith [a science fundamentalism*], then indeed, for example, you will see that there can be faith without reason [religious fundamentalism]...

This paragraph follows in the passage I quoted.

"Fanaticism abounds, of course, because the human tendencies and experiences that have been denied by the mainline society erupt with explosive force, where the tendencies themselves must be accepted as characteristics of human experience. Iran is an example for the world, in explosive capsule form, complete with historical background and a modern political one. Modern psychology does not have a concept of the self to begin to explain such realities."

*This is earlier in that session:

"Unfortunately, with the development of the scientific era, a development occurred that need not have happened. As I have mentioned before, science's determination to be objective almost immediately brought about a certain artificial shrinking of psychological reality. What could not be proven in the laboratory was presumed not to exist at all.


"Anyone who 'experienced something that could not exist' was therefore to some extent or another deluded or deranged...."

[inavalan]

• "(10:07.) I have been very gentle in my treatment of your mores and institutions — for I do not want you to be against your world, but for a more fulfilling one."
  —TMA Session Fourteen September 29, 1980

[Mark M]

Here is Seth being ungentle with an individual, I think it was Dr Instream who a Seth reader said was really George Estabrooks*:

"Now. I trust your integrity, and I am quite certain of my own. Between us, what do you think we can accomplish? We can accomplish much despite my sarcastic remarks, but it will not be easy and it will not be quick. You will indeed live many years yet, before we meet face to face. And when we do meet face to face then indeed, if you will most respectfully forgive me, there will be hell to pay."

—TES4 Session 170 July 19, 1965

*Estabrooks did experiments on children. He exchanged correspondence with then FBI Director Edgar Hoover about using hypnosis to interrogate juvenile delinquents.[2] It is possible he used Manchurian Candidates in children.[3]

He used hypnosis to help spies have split personalities to not actually know they were spies in case of capture. He stated it was easy to create and easy to cure using hypnosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Estabrooks

[inavalan]

• "(10:07.) I have been very gentle in my treatment of your mores and institutions — for I do not want you to be against your world, but for a more fulfilling one."
  —TMA Session Fourteen September 29, 1980

Here is Seth being ungentle with an individual,  ... , there will be hell to pay." ...

I find it interesting that your attention was drawn by that part of the quote I posted(?), more than by the part I focused on: the advice to be "for (something positive)", instead of "against (its negative opposite)".

[Mark M]

Glad you find that interesting!

Your quote is not new to me, tho a nice reminder.

And mine is a "tangential" contrast made to an individual who apparently worked for an institution or two.

[inavalan]

Glad you find that interesting!

Your quote is not new to me, tho a nice reminder.

And mine is a "tangential" contrast made to an individual.

I believe that much of the pain people experience is caused by not realizing that they bring in their reality more of what they focus on. Most people seem to believe that "not wanting something" is equivalent to "wanting its opposite". It is an essential mind-shift.

[Mark M]

Right.

[Bora137]

. And when we do meet face to face then indeed, if you will most respectfully forgive me, there will be hell to pay."

This is Seth issuing a threat of retribution? This is very interesting.

[Deb]

You have a point there Bora! That's a pretty straightforward and uncommonly Earthly comment from Seth.

Estabrooks--I did a bit of research on him at some point and found some documents online that had to do with the FBI. He's disturbing to me.

As far as atrocious acts and school and mass shootings, my mind goes over to the recent topic on basically fanaticism. I'm so done with current events. This is not the reality I grew up in.

I was actually headed over to the park (Clement) bordering Columbine HS while that was going down. I used to live in that area. I didn't know about the shooting at the time, was waiting with my then 4 year old for my neighbor to join us with her two boys. She was behind schedule and so we ended up not going.

Before that, when my son was a month old (1995), I was headed to a friend's home in Denver. She had just given birth to her 2nd child. I was going to stop at the local grocery store to bring some goodies, but was running late and so skipped that stop. As a result, we missed a mass shooting in that store.

As Seth said, we don't die until we decide to do so. I just hate seeing other people going through such suffering and sadness. I'm a Seth fan, but I'm also a human living in this reality and so the "drama" is real to me.

[Mark M]

Here's Seth kinda in line with the inavalan quote:

"Live with a sweeter touch."

—TPS5 Deleted Session August 13 1979

[inavalan]

. And when we do meet face to face then indeed, if you will most respectfully forgive me, there will be hell to pay."

This is Seth issuing a threat of retribution? This is very interesting.

I just read Session 170. The phrase "there will be hell to pay" isn't a threat, nor even a warning. It is just a figure of speech, regarding dr. Instream's beliefs about what Seth might be, which will be proven incorrect after his death.

All the side discussion about the dr. Estabrooks has nothing to do with this session (actually I couldn't find any reference to him https://nowdictation.com/q/estabrooks/).

The Session 170 is a looong diatribe about how no matter what proof of his existence Seth would present, those who don't believe in his existence couldn't be convinced, because they're in a hypnotic trance. There were some good points, but Seth's speech is waaaay too long and too cumbersome.

=======
EDIT: I could copy it into a spoiler if you don't have access to the text, and interested.

[Bora137]

I guess context is everything. It did look so much like a real threat which would have definitely changed my perception of Seth.

[Mark M]

If Instream = Estabrooks (Deb, can you confirm?), this is the greater context:

Estabrooks did experiments on children. He exchanged correspondence with then FBI Director Edgar Hoover about using hypnosis to interrogate juvenile delinquents.[2] It is possible he used Manchurian Candidates in children.[3]

He used hypnosis to help spies have split personalities to not actually know they were spies in case of capture. He stated it was easy to create and easy to cure using hypnosis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Estabrooks

Even if different people, Instream frustrated Jane and Rob by never sharing the results of his testing.

[Deb]

Fanatics will bend their moral compass in order to justify their actions. "The end justifies the means."

Yes, Instream was Estabrooks. Jane talked about him in the Village Voice Interview Part 1 (free download). I'd actually done some research on him a few years ago, before I got involved with the Seth Research Project. I came across some correspondence between him and Hoover on an archive site that no longer exists. The Wiki you linked to above has a PDF download containing some of the letters. 

I just made a topic on Estabrooks here if anyone is interested in more information about him. There's also attached a photo of Estabrooks, a sketch Rob had made of him, a lecture that mentions his work and some of his letters.

Update: YIKES, I just came across this article, 1963: Hypnotist George Estabrooks admits creating multiple personality assassins

[Mark M]

Deb, thank you for the confirmation and allied info! Very interesting.

[Mark M]

1963: Hypnotist George Estabrooks admits creating multiple personality assassins (from Deb)

Sirhan Sirhan always claimed he could recall nothing about shooting (at) RFK.

More shots were fired than fit in his gun.

"The woman in the polka dot dress" and another man ran from the scene, her saying "We killed him! We killed him!"

https://i0.wp.com/covertactionmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/3069350_orig.jpg?resize=300%2C705&ssl=1

The woman and the other man and Sirhan were earlier seen together.

Read all about it:

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2021/09/01/new-evidence-implicates-cia-lapd-fbi-and-mafia-as-plotters-in-elaborate-hit-plan-to-prevent-rfk-from-ever-reaching-white-house/

[inavalan]

Still ... to me it is obvious that you projected on that quote your views on Estabrooks' work.

The Seth quote

• "And when we do meet face to face then indeed, if you will most respectfully forgive me, there will be hell to pay."

has nothing to do with the doctor's allegedly infamous work with hypnosis.

Seth was talking only about the doctor's disbelief in a paranormal explanation of Jane's channeling Seth.

I dug a little in Estabrooks' writings and even in the published FBI files on him (almost 500 pages are available in pdf format). Too long to go through all of it and beyond my immediate interests, but there are a few quite interesting experiments described, that bring some light on the subconscious possibilities, about how it creates your reality (!)

[Mark M]

Maybe Seth is actually not aware of Estabrooks' misdeeds.

Hell to pay/live w/a sweeter touch, go figger.

[Deb]

[duplicate]

Just so y'all know, that happens sometimes and you can delete your own posts.

Maybe Seth is actually not aware of Estabrooks' misdeeds.

Yeah. Or one of those things we question because we see a contradiction.

Experimenting on adults and children is nothing new, and still goes on to this day. Robert Kennedy Jr's book on Fauci points out a few. For example, drug trials forced on foster children in America, mostly blacks and Hispanics; women and children in Africa. We rarely hear about it. Disgusting.

This article is really disturbing, and makes me question why the human mind is so vulnerable. From a Seth reader's view that we make our own reality, there are no victims, can heal and protect our bodies... why the seeming vulnerability of the human mind to hypnosis and brainwashing? If these hypnotized people are consenting on a subconscious level to manipulation, why? Is it just a part of the dramas needed for us to advance human spirituality? I've said it before, physical reality is not for sissies. Grit required.

Just one little thing from the article: "The focal point of MKULTRA was the use of humans as unwitting subjects [without their knowledge or consent]. The CIA sponsored numerous experiments of this kind. Regardless of a report by the CIA's Inspector General in 1963 recommending the termination of testing on unwitting subjects, future CIA Director Richard Helms continued to advocate covert testing on the grounds that "we are less capable of staying up with the Soviet advances in this field."

On the subject of moral issues, Helms commented, "we have no answer to the moral issue."

OK.

[Mark M]

Thanks, Deb, who wrote:

'On the subject of moral issues, Helms commented, "we have no answer to the moral issue."'

NB:

Before the act was passed. Secretary of State George Marshall warned President Truman that it granted the new intelligence agency [CIA] in particular powers that were "almost unlimited," a criticism of the CIA that Truman would echo much too late—soon after the assassination of John Kennedy.

from JFK and the Unspeakable by James W. Douglass (2008)