Author Topic: The Holocaust, Hitler, How?  (Read 359 times)

Offline Deb

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Today is my last day in Linz, Austria. The weather all week was unseasonably warm and much appreciated. Today it was overcast, windy, cold. The perfect (?) day to visit a concentration camp—Mauthausen. I'd not heard of it before this week. I had heard a lot about the Holocaust all my life from family, school, movies. My ex-husband's grandfather escaped from occupied Russia while still a teen. I read Anne Frank's book when a kid and last winter visited the house where she and her family were hidden in Amsterdam. I cried through Schindler's List as if I'd lived through it. I have heard skeptics say it never happened, or it was all hype.

Mauthausen is part preserved history and part memorial/tribute/museum to the victims. I spent the majority of my time there simply being in the moment and observing. Reading facts and figures, seeing the artifacts, I was repeatedly astounded and horrified with the atrocities that people can commit. One sick individual is easy enough to grasp, but the number of people who bought into the entire horror is incomprehensible. At the same time, I tried to keep in mind the Seth perspective. The only things I could come up with were the purposes of mass events, how suffering is only meant to teach us how to not suffer, how this is a kindergarten and we are here to learn.

While much of the focus of the Holocaust is on the Jews that were killed, Hitler tried to eradicate anyone who opposed any of his ideals or he felt threatened his plans. About 80% of the 125,000-320,000 who died in this camp were Soviets and Poles. I did find a family member in the book listing those who died there.

I'm am starting this topic only to get my thoughts out of my head. This topic may not go anywhere, and I don't blame anyone for not participating. It's... difficult. Here are some unedited quotes from the search engine when I searched on Hitler. I didn't come with anything worthwhile when I searched on Holocaust. I'll add to this topic if and when something useful comes up. I'll also add just a few photos from today.

• "► NoME Chapter 7: Session 852, May 9, 1979 hitler aryan germany jews grandiose
You must realize that Hitler believed that any atrocity was justified in the light of what he thought of as the greater good. To some extent or another, many of the ideals he held and advocated had long been accepted in world communities, though they had not been acted upon with such dispatch. The nations of the world saw their own worst tendencies personified in Hitler’s Germany, ready to attack them. The Jews, for various reasons — and again, this is not the full story — the Jews acted as all of the victims of the world, both the Germans and the Jews basically agreeing upon “man’s nefarious nature.” For the first time the modern world realized its vulnerability to political events, and technology and communication accelerated all of war’s dangers. Hitler brought many of man’s most infamous tendencies to the surface. For the first time, again, the species understood that might alone did not mean right, and that in larger terms a world war could have no real victors. Hitler might well have exploded the world’s first atomic bomb."

• "He believed in heroic characteristics, and became blinded by an idealized superman version of an Aryan strong in mind and body. To attain that end, Hitler was quite willing to sacrifice the rest of humanity. “The evil must be plucked out.” That unfortunate chant is behind the beliefs of many cults — scientific and religious — and Hitler’s Aryan kingdom was a curious interlocking of the worst aspects of religion and science alike, in which their cultish tendencies were encouraged and abetted."

• "How did Hitler’s initially wishy-washy undefined ideals of nationalistic goodness turn into such a world catastrophe? The steps were the ones mentioned earlier (in a number of sessions in Part 3), as those involved with any cult. Hitler’s daydreams became more and more grandiose, and in their light, the plight of his country seemed worsened with each day’s events. He counted its humiliations over and over in his mind, until his mind became an almost completely closed environment, in which only certain ideas were allowed entry."

• "► TPS2 Deleted Session August 30, 1972 ottoman christendom richard empire nebene
[...] I have a small point here, in that Hitler represented as a bleedthrough from a probable reality—extremely interesting. [...]"

• "[...] (Jane raised an arm over her head, full length.) Following the analogy the times, the physical times in which they would ordinarily have occurred, would have ended, say, here—(Jane indicated a spot six inches above the lighter)—but the energy was so great that it catapulted some of these events, displacing what you think of as time, so that they appeared, as Hitler did, where theoretically, now, they should not have."

• "[...] Hitler appeared therefore as a far more vicious character against your current world, than he would have had those other times contained him."

• "► WTH Chapter 13: June 23, 1984 superbeing schizophrenic dogmas madness directives
(Long pause at 3:42.) In a fashion, Adolf Hitler fell into such a classification. [...]"

• "► DEaVF2 Chapter 9: Session 921, October 8, 1980 schizophrenic demons personifications devils gods
Such (pause) “communications” with the gods or demons, St. Pauls or Hitlers, represent in such instances dramatized, exaggerated personifications of the portion of the personality that is at the head of the chain of command at the moment."

• "► TECS4 ESP Class Session, May 25, 1971 ron evil brady pope theodore
([Ron:] “Well, Hitler could have used that justification for wiping out 9 million Jews.”)"

—TECS4 ESP Class Session, May 25, 1971

« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 01:01:09 PM by Deb »

Offline chasman

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no words to express depth of sorrow about this.
indeed incomprehensible.
thank you for all you posted Deb.

Offline Deb

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Thank you Charlie, wonderful to know you're still here.

I feel this part of history is the most impossible to digest.
I hope humanity has made a giant spiritual leap in the better direction due to this atrocity.

Offline LarryH

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Deb, I have wondered about the whole Hitler thing all my life. My step-father and a few uncles fought in WWII, so I was brought up hearing the stories. One uncle was among those who discovered one of the concentration camps. I have been to the Holocaust Museum in DC. I am currently listening to the Philip K. Dick novel The Man in the High Castle, which is also a series on (I think) either Amazon or Netflix. It is an alternative history in which the Germans and Japanese won WWII. I recently had a dream in which I was a soldier in WWII, and I was given the responsibility to guard a high Swedish official (though I think Sweden was neutral in WWII?). When he saw me, he got on his knees and put his hands behind his head. I felt sorry for him, as I had no intention of harming him, though he was clearly frightened. I asked him, "Sprechen sie Deutche?" Why didn't I ask him if he spoke English? When I awoke, I had the chilling thought that perhaps I had been a German soldier.

I hesitate to make this comparison, but I believe that current American politics is in many ways an echo of Nazi Germany. Of course, it is nowhere near the ultimate manifestations of that earlier era, but there are many parallels - the expressions of racism, nationalism, blatant falsehoods used as propaganda, fear-mongering, saber-rattling, and demonization of various ethnic or political groups.  That being said, I believe that this is an opportunity to deal with these exposed pathologies more completely than we have before.

I seem to recall that somewhere in the Seth stuff, he said that the era of the Crusades had so much cruelty on both sides that the cruelty could not be contained, and that it resulted in a bleed-over into the WWII era. I may be remembering that inaccurately.

I am currently reading Dreams, "Evolution", and Value Fulfillment, and Seth is getting into the topic of suffering. Maybe it will have some insights on this topic.

Offline chasman

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Quote from: Deb
Thank you Charlie, wonderful to know you're still here.

I feel this part of history is the most impossible to digest.
I hope humanity has made a giant spiritual leap in the better direction due to this atrocity.


thank you Deb. you are very kind.
I just wrote the President.
I am asking him again to be a man of peace.
peaceful solutions to all problems.
one can hope.

and I enjoyed your post LarryH.

Offline jbseth

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Hi Deb,

Wow. Thanks for sharing this message and your link to Mauthausen.
I didn't know about this place.

I think that these type of places do have a purpose and that is to show us where mankind should strive to make changes so as to never repeat.

jbseth

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
The nations of the world saw their own worst tendencies personified in Hitler’s Germany, ready to attack them. The Jews, for various reasons — and again, this is not the full story — the Jews acted as all of the victims of the world, both the Germans and the Jews basically agreeing upon “man’s nefarious nature.”
Deb, I think Seth is somewhat off the mark here. The reasons for the Holocaust occurring are complex, but one aspect that Seth has glossed over is the role of the Christian Church. The Church preached anti-semitism for centuries. They blamed the Jews for the killing of Christ, when in fact crucifixion was a Roman punishment. Pope Pius XII signed a Concordat (agreement) with Hitler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat

After the war ended, the Vatican "machine" helped a number of Nazi war criminals to escape justice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_(World_War_II_aftermath)

"Bishop Alois Hudal, a Nazi sympathiser, was rector of the Pontificio Istituto Teutonico Santa Maria dell'Anima in Rome, a seminary for Austrian and German priests, and "Spiritual Director of the German People resident in Italy".[10] After the end of the war in Italy, Hudal became active in ministering to German-speaking prisoners of war and internees then held in camps throughout Italy. In December 1944, the Vatican Secretariat of State received permission to appoint a representative to "visit the German-speaking civil internees in Italy", a job assigned to Hudal."

Offline LarryH

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Quote from: Sena
Deb, I think Seth is somewhat off the mark here.
Sena, I'm not seeing where your explanation contradicts Seth's comments. Seth simply suggests the role taken on by two groups. He also says that "this is not the full story". The Jews had a history of being victimized by Christians due to a great extent the "Christ killer" accusations, so the role of the Catholic church is consistent with Seth's comments.

Offline Deb

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Good points LarryH. I've decided to add all of the text from Session 852 in Mass Events dealing with good and bad, Hitler, fanatics. It's in the second "spoiler" below. I bolded what stood out for me. Also, the Nazis didn't only kill Jews, which was made clear in the information on Mauthausen. The deaths of Jews is emphasized in anything historical I've read or watched (I don't have a big interest in wars, so my knowledge has been limited to media) so the trip to Mauthausen was an eye opener for me.  Eighty percent of those killed there were Soviet officers and Polish intellectuals. More Soviets than Jews! Anyone who didn't fully pledge support to Hitler in war, had political differences, or didn't fit in with his ideal (Aryan) was to be eliminated. Seth's description of Hitler's mindset, "Hitler's daydreams became more and more grandiose, and in their light, the plight of his country seemed worsened with each day's events. He counted its humiliations over and over in his mind, until his mind became an almost completely closed environment, in which only certain ideas were allowed entry" could be attributed to every fanatic or "nut job" that commits horrendous crimes against humanity.

Hitler was a fanatic. What I don't understand is how he could get so many people to support him, other than it was a cooperative mass event along with Seth's comment "Fanatics call others to social action. Since they did not believe that the individual is ever effective, their groups are not assemblies of private individuals come reasonably together, pooling individual resources. They are instead congregations of people who are afraid to assert their individuality, who hope to find it in the group..."

From the Wiki on Mauthausen:

"Until at least 1942, it was used for the imprisonment and murder of the Nazi's political and ideological enemies, real and imagined..."

"Until early 1940, the largest group of inmates consisted of German, Austrian and Czechoslovak socialists, communists, homosexuals who were not Party members, anarchists and people of Romani origin. Other groups of people to be persecuted solely on religious grounds were the Sectarians, as they were dubbed by the Nazi regime, meaning Bible Students, or as they are called today, Jehovah's Witnesses. The reason for their imprisonment was their rejection of giving the loyalty oath to Hitler and their refusal to participate in any kind of military service."

"In early 1940, many Poles were transferred to the Mauthausen–Gusen complex. The first groups were mostly composed of artists, scientists, Boy Scouts, teachers, and university professors..."

"educated people and so-called political prisoners constituted the largest part of all inmates until the end of the war. During World War II, large groups of Spanish Republicans were also transferred to Mauthausen and its subcamps. Most of them were former Republican soldiers or activists who had fled to France after Franco's victory and then were captured by German forces after the defeat of France in 1940 or handed over to the Germans by the Vichy authorities."

"...toughest camp for the "incorrigible political enemies of the Reich" Mauthausen was mostly used for extermination through labour of the intelligentsia – educated people and members of the higher social classes in countries subjugated by the Nazi regime during World War II..."

"[arrest and murder of Polish intellectuals] was designated for the month of April."

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Offline Sena

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Quote from: LarryH
Quote from: Sena
Deb, I think Seth is somewhat off the mark here.
Sena, I'm not seeing where your explanation contradicts Seth's comments. Seth simply suggests the role taken on by two groups. He also says that "this is not the full story". The Jews had a history of being victimized by Christians due to a great extent the "Christ killer" accusations, so the role of the Catholic church is consistent with Seth's comments.
Larry,
Seth seems to be suggesting that 6 million Jews "created their own reality" of being tortured and killed. I don't accept that.

Offline LarryH

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OK, Sena, I respect that. It is the hardest of all mass events to rationalize that those who participated created their own reality. I was not clear on what exactly you had an issue with, but you cleared it up. I think we often interpret reality creation as "It's their/my/his/her fault". I don't see it that way, though from our limited perspective, it is hard to get the purpose of such a choice if it is a choice. I do not believe that the people (incarnate humans) chose victimhood, though I can believe that before entering physical life, their more aware selves were willing to play such roles in the probable mass event. What they would gain from it is a mystery to me, but I choose to view these events in that context without understanding the purpose. None of this excuses the cruelty, and none of it redirects blame.

Offline jbseth

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Hi All,

In “The Early Sessions”, Book 1, Session 32, Seth says quite a bit about groups of people reincarnating via various ages and then he says the following about the Jewish persecutions that have occurred over the years.

The same personalities are not always reborn for example in the same race. It is true that your history shows a continuity of Jewish persecutions, that is persecutions of Jews. The fact is that many personalities who have been famous in many eras have also been proud, brilliant and cruel, and have belittled and persecuted those they considered beneath them.

These personalities, often talented in many directions and often with past experiences of wealth and power, choose to be born as Jews of their own volition, and this is a karmic compensation, not in any sense punishment but a needed adjustment on the part of the personalities involved.

The horrible misdeeds committed upon the Jews by the Germans were certainly not asked for specifically. However large numbers of those Jews were Huns of a very cruel variety in a past existence.

The Germans of that particular generation were not revenging past misdeeds. Revenge has no place in this discussion. In one sense there is no excuse for what occurred. The Jewish people have always displayed great financial abilities, these being natural remnants of knowledge of wealth, as in previous lives many of them had positions of power which they misused.

Your generation as a whole had to learn the importance of thought and responsibility. You had to learn that basically to hate is to kill. The lesson was a practical one. The Germans and the Jews made it plain. Had the hatred not existed in the Germans, it could not have been channeled as it was against the Jews.  Free will operated here as always.


A little further along in this same session, Seth says:

Until you learn reverence for all living things you will continue to slaughter each other. Again, this does not involve punishment in any sense of the word, but the idea of killing permissiveness is not discriminating. Once you allow yourselves to kill you will kill any living thing. In future lives this involves the race in further adjustments.

jbseth

Offline jbseth

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Hi All,

Along with this, in this same session, “The Early Sessions”, Book 1, Session 32, Seth also says:

“[…] A personality will not choose unfavorable circumstances of rebirth until he himself sees that necessary discipline can be achieved in no other manner.”


Then later in this same session, in regards to the Jewish and German comments brought up in my previous reply on this topic, Rob asked Seth:

(“Have we learned our lesson?”)

In response to this question, Seth replied:

You are beginning to learn the lesson. Ruburt’s vehement anger over something that seems perhaps much more trivial, the death by shooting of the starlings, is a case in point.

(Upon going to work at the gallery yesterday noon, Jane saw more dead starlings scattered on the lawns. This so incensed her that she telephoned the police. After talking to two different desk sergeants she was referred to the police chief. The chief said she was the only complainant the police had had; other callers had given the police their addresses and asked them to destroy the birds on their own properties.

(Jane also sent two more poems on the subject to the newspaper. The first poem she sent in has been scheduled for publication. The people at the newspaper were quite surprised to learn the police were shooting birds. They said they would check into it.)

Killing except for self-protection will be paid for. The idea of killing is what is at fault. If you agree with the killing of birds for example, you wind up with the killing of men. You will all be taught the sacredness of all life, and in the most practical way.

jbseth


Offline Sena

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Quote from: LarryH
I do not believe that the people (incarnate humans) chose victimhood, though I can believe that before entering physical life, their more aware selves were willing to play such roles in the probable mass event
Hi Larry, it is possible that the 6 million Jews chose the Holocaust as a landmark event for the human race. A thousand years from now, philosophers will have to think about it.
I visted Yad Vashem twice.

https://www.yadvashem.org/
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 11:31:52 AM by Sena »

Offline Deb

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Quote from: LarryH
I do not believe that the people (incarnate humans) chose victimhood, though I can believe that before entering physical life, their more aware selves were willing to play such roles in the probable mass event.

Yes it sure is hard to imagine anyone, let alone so many people, choosing to go through something like that, but the "more aware selves" gives clarity. The Jews have had a history of persecution, there has to be a greater reason. I also can't help but keep in mind that Jews are Jews in this reality only. In F2 we are pure consciousness. It seems to me that in F2 there is no gender, religion, race, etc. So there is more to this, which is why I found this quote from Seth interesting:

Quote from: Seth
And while in the Jewish books [of The Old Testament] Jehovah now and then came through with great majesty to save his chosen people, he also allowed them to suffer great indignities over long periods of time, seeming to save them only at the last moment — and this time, so it seemed, he did not save them at all. What happened?

This (below) bothers me because we've set rat traps to keep down the rat population in the back yard. They destroy my vegetable garden, consume all the chickens' food and water daily and one almost bit off one of my chicken's toes. They can potentially carry diseases. The rats are living in the chicken run under a patio slab and are protected on all sides from natural predators so are overpopulating. I know this is trivial compared to what we've been discussing in this topic, but it sounds like killing anything, and even insects (and weeds?), for any reason other than self defense is bad.

Quote from: Seth
Killing except for self-protection will be paid for. The idea of killing is what is at fault. If you agree with the killing of birds for example, you wind up with the killing of men. You will all be taught the sacredness of all life, and in the most practical way.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 04:52:06 PM by Deb »

Offline Deb

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OK, I felt the need to lighten things up a little. Saw this on Facebook today, it reminded me of my comment about F2. BTW... love the pirate.

Offline jbseth

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Hi Deb, Hi All,


In TES1, Session 32, Seth said:

“Until you learn reverence for all living things you will continue to slaughter each other. Again, this does not involve punishment in any sense of the word, but the idea of killing permissiveness is not discriminating. Once you allow yourselves to kill you will kill any living thing. In future lives this involves the race in further adjustments.“


I think the point that Seth is making here, has to do with how we allow a certain amount of “killing permissiveness” to affects us. His point seems to be that a certain amount of “killing permissiveness” allows us to more easily justify, other types of killing that occurs in our life and in society.

Along these lines, I believe that people who hold that all life is sacred, such as perhaps, some Buddhist monks, would be extremely bothered by killing a bug.

On the other hand, people who do not hold anything as sacred, such as perhaps Adolph Hitler or Jeffrey Damher, wouldn’t be bothered by killing a bug, a mouse, a cat, a dog, or even a man.


Holding all life sacred is not necessarily easy or convenient. I once ran into a dilemma with mice in our house about 15 years ago. At first I captured them in a small non-harmful metal trap and released them into the woods. But very soon there became too many of them. So, ultimately I got some poison and placed it at certain locations around our house and this seemed to do the trick.  We had several foul smelling incidences for about 2 weeks and then no more mice problems.

Given Seth’s message, as an adult, I have at least attempted to stop the indiscriminate killing of all bugs that I find in our house; I learned this indiscriminate killing of all bugs as a kid from my elders.  At least now, when I can, I capture these bugs and let them go outside. I figure that this is a step in the right direction.

jbseth

Offline Deb

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Thanks jbseth. The thing is that I do have a reverence for all living things, and even inanimate objects, since learning from Seth that everything has consciousness. So situations like this are very difficult for me. I'm also a bug "relocator" for that same reason. Even with spiders, which creep the daylights out of me.

I did use a live trap when my sunroom was invaded by mice. I ended up with a 5 gallon aquarium full of mice, waiting for the snow to melt to relocate them to a field. The problem with the live traps is that too often a rodent gets caught in the spring door and dies a horrible death. Snap traps are quick and hopefully painless, but the rats are often too smart for even those.

The rats magically appeared a few years after I got chickens, and I was told by a neighbor that happens. So apparently as long as I have chickens, I will have rats. I tolerated the rats until that one chicken was bitten and almost bled to death. To make things harder, I had pet rats for several years when my son was younger and they were wonderful pets. I even had a sewing business based on pet rats that was fairly successful, became international and caught the attention of Shark Tank. So there's irony or some sort of test there.

I don't know why I am dealing with this. I have not directly set traps or emptied them (a couple of times as many as 14 rats within a week), but that doesn't absolve me from responsibility. I can say that I can't see me killing a bird, or cat or dog or anything like that. I honestly try not to step on insects when out walking.

I've asked myself why I've permitted this problem to enter my life, but so far have no answer.


Offline Marianna

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Thank you, Deb for Seth quotes on this topic. Jewish people have been prosecuted and harassed for so many centuries. When I come across some information about this, I cannot help thinking that they did choose to be victims. And what's surprising - not just a few people, but a whole nation!

And since the situation is much better now, does that mean that some time ago Jews changed some of their believes and ideas?

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Marianna
And since the situation is much better now, does that mean that some time ago Jews changed some of their believes and ideas?

Marianna, it would seem that Jews have changed their ideas by giving up pacifism. It is a well-known secret that Israel possesses nuclear weapons. I think they are justified in having these weapons for self-defence.

Offline Marianna

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Sena, this is about Jewish country... But it also does look like Jews changed their ideas. When you stop sticking your face out to take the blows, blows stop coming in your direction, doesn't they? 

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Marianna
But it also does look like Jews changed their ideas. When you stop sticking your face out to take the blows, blows stop coming in your direction, doesn't they?

I've been wondering about this. While things are better, there is still anti-semitism in the world and I don't understand that. I've not heard of another "group" of people (being Jewish is both religion and ethnicity, and more) as consistently persecuted throughout history, although it has been a constant problem in the world since recorded time. How could one group of people be constantly targeted? And yet, they have survived. And yes, on a national level they are standing their ground, are no longer being victims.

I think the story of the history of their persecution (and the lessons/statements being made by the events) is greater than I can imagine.


Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
While things are better, there is still anti-semitism in the world and I don't understand that.
Deb, believing in an exclusive God ("My God is bigger and better than yours") is the root problem. This is a problem not just for Jews, but also for Christians and Muslims.

Offline jbseth

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Hi Sena,

Actually, I would say that “exclusivity”, in and of itself, is the root of many of our world’s problems.


I am male, you are female, I am better than you – negativity/hatred in the form of sexism.

I am heterosexual, you aren’t heterosexual, I am better than you – negativity/hatred in the form of sexism.

I am white, you aren’t white, I am better than you – negativity/hatred in the form of racism.

I am American, you aren’t American, I am better than you – negativity/hatred in the form of nationalism.

I am Jewish, we are God’s chosen people, you aren’t Jewish, we are better than you –negativity/hatred in the form of religious exclusivity.

I am Christian, you are Jewish, the Jewish people were responsible for Christ’s (God’s) death, we are better than you – negativity/hatred in the form of religious exclusivity.

I am Muslim, you aren’t Muslim, we are better than you - negativity in the form of religious exclusivity.


How many examples of this kind of thinking do people need to see before they finally begin to recognize that it is this kind of thinking, in and of itself, that is one of the biggest problems, we have in the world?

(Please don’t take this personally Sena, I’m not talking about you here; instead, I’m referring to people in general.)

I believe that this kind of thinking, stems from spiritual ignorance. People who are spiritually evolved, do not think like this.

jbseth


Offline Deb

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Sena, jb, ALL valid points to me.

I always want to know the WHYS behind this type of stuff, how did this exclusivity come to be? Is it human nature, or as you say spiritual ignorance? I've always looked at animal behavior to understand what's natural, as humans always seem to have baggage clouding their judgment and behavior.

My thought is maybe this way of thinking originally was a survival mechanism, a way to protect the tribe's resources from outsiders. OUR food, OUR land, OUR water, OUR gene pool and you can't have any because we only have enough for us and you are not us. And we will fight and kill to protect what is ours. And you will fight and kill to take what is ours. That need to protect spread to more ways to exclude others, to where we added racism, sexism, nations... it eventually became out of control. I think the root of it all was/is fear for survival.

Spiritual evolution yes, and even just humans examining their own behavior and realizing that a good portion of the world's inhabitants have moved way beyond survival mode yet are still clinging onto life preserving acts that maybe were necessary in the beginning of time but are now outdated. Some outgrown that behavior. But it's so deeply engrained. Fear can never be the root of anything good.

Sena, do you have any idea why some people need to believe in an exclusive god? I've never studied religion, but do know there were some religions that believed (or still do) in multiple gods and goddesses. It seems that changed with the time of the Judeo Christian era. Do you suppose the "one god" was a way to control the public, to get everyone on the same page? One god would be a very powerful god, no one to share the power with. And to be a priest or rabbi 'personally called' by that god to lead the people... well... that would be a very special leader.

« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 06:21:21 PM by Deb »

 

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