Gender roles vs. female warriors

[Deb]

I came across this article today and it fascinated me. It seems like recently there have been a few ancient remains discovered in different parts of the world. A Viking warrior's grave discovered more than 100 years ago turned out to contain a woman, contrary to the assumption it was male. And this tomb discovered in Armenia a couple of years also contains a female warrior dated 8-6th century BC. According to the article, her upper limbs show signs of intense physical activity from using a bow, she had physical traumas that were healed and her femurs bear the signs of muscles developed through horse riding! She was buried with weapons, jewelry, a board game (!) and two horses. She appears to have been a "professional" warrior, and is the second female warrior found in Armenia to date.

This all reminded me of Seth's talking about early man, and how there were really no set gender roles, with both males and females sharing the burdens of survival. I did some quick searches to see if Seth also talked about warriors from other time periods such as above, but haven't come up with anything yet.

https://www.foxnews.com/science/tomb-battle-scarred-ancient-female-warrior-reveals-secrets

"Often after childbirth, women immediately joined the hunting expeditions, and the fathers made clothing from animals’ hides at home. This allowed the male to rest after prolonged hunting activity, and meant that no adult member of a family became over-exhausted. The work, then, was interchangeable."
—NotP Chapter 4: Session 765, February 2, 1976

Oh if I could just figure out how to time travel! I would love to peek in on time periods like these.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

This is a really interesting topic. Your comments here made me think of the myth of the "Amazons". As I understand it, the Amazons were women who were considered great warriors.

After thinking about this, I opened up your link and discovered that this link does, in fact, mention this Greek myth, the Amazons.

I'm not saying that this women was an Amazon. However maybe her people, were the people that this Greek myth was based upon.

-jbseth

[Deb]

After thinking about this, I opened up your link and discovered that this link does, in fact, mention this Greek myth, the Amazons.

Yes, I noticed that too. In that case, you might enjoy this 2014 article/interview in NatGeo about the Amazon "myth."

I saw a picture in there of people riding horses bare back and naked (not the same thing, lol) and all I could think of was "ouch." Well, it turns out warrior women invented trousers for that very reason!

The person being interviewed, Adrienne Mayor, wrote a book The Amazons that I just added to my Amazon (lol) Wish List. She also wrote a book that @James Sidaway and @T.M. might enjoy, Gods and Robots, Myths, Machines and Ancient Dreams of Technology. Actually, I'd probably enjoy it too.

From the NatGeo article:

"...archaeology has now proven without a doubt that there really were women fitting the description that the Greeks gave us of Amazons and warrior women."

"Archaeologists have found skeletons buried with bows and arrows and quivers and spears and horses. At first they assumed that anyone buried with weapons in that region must have been a male warrior. But with the advent of DNA testing and other bioarchaeological scientific analysis, they've found that about one-third of all Scythian women are buried with weapons and have war injuries just like the men. The women were also buried with knives and daggers and tools. So burial with masculine-seeming grave goods is no longer taken as an indicator of a male warrior. It's overwhelming proof that there were women answering to the description of the ancient Amazons."

[T.M.]

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

 Thank you for the book reference!!! I found a vid of the author talking about her book, it's about an hour long


The Scythians are mysterious. I looked into them awhile back. No one is really sure where they came from, just that they were very advanced, compared to all the civilizations they met. I think Scythians and Egyptians (ancient)  both had contact with an advanced civilization that preceded modern humanity.

Funny Talos was also the planet forbidden for the Federation/Star Trek to go to. There was an interesting 2 part episode filmed/developed around it on the original series starring Jeffrey Hunter who was originally going to star as the Captain

[jbseth]

Hi All,

I went to Amazon.com and took a "Look Inside" at the book, "The Amazons" by Adrienne Mayor.

It's looks really interesting.

The author starts out in her Prologue by talking about "Atalanta", which, according to her in ancient Greek "Atalanta" stood for "balance, equal".

I find it interesting that her name, "Atalanta", is very similar to the name "Atlantis", and I wonder if there is some sort of connection there. Were the Amazons somehow associated with the people from Atlantis?

I was also surprised to see that you can purchase the paperback version for $15.97.   Wow. This is a 400+ page book, with illustrations and maps etc.

I think I'll put this on my Christmas wish list too.   


-jbseth

 

[chasman]

I remember the name Atalanta from the Free to Be You and Me record from the 70's:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_to_Be..._You_and_Me



and here's a youtube video:

[Deb]

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/introducing-the-scythians/

I'd actually never heard of the Scythians before, but it seems like they were a rowdy and interesting bunch and loved their horses. I didn't realize it at the time, but I've actually seen a lot of the antiquities shown in the article in the Hermitage Museum in St. Petersburg.

"Other than tattoos, what did the Scythians look like? Some of the women have fair hair and blue eyes but the men are strongly built and have red or dark hair."

For me, this and the fact they were nomads kind of explained the posts here about the elongated heads found in Peru, where DNA testing showed European heritage (and some with preserved red hair). Not that the article mentions any head shaping, but there have been some discovered in Russia. I need to find out if they were found in the same area as the Scythian remains. Their burial practices were very much like the Egyptians, which left clues about the Scythians themselves.

"In the high Altai mountain region near the borders of Russia, Kazakhstan, China and Mongolia, the frozen subsoil has meant that the organic remains of Scythians buried in tombs have been exceptionally well preserved in permafrost.

"The Scythians took great effort to preserve the appearance of the dead using a form of mummification. They removed the brain matter through holes cut in the head, sliced the bodies and removed as much soft tissue as possible before replacing both with dry grass and sewing up the skin."

T.M. nice find on the Gods and Robots Youtube. I'll definitely listen to that, but now I'm even more excited about the Amazon book. I found out I can get the book, or audio version for free at my local library through an app called Hoopla.

The Atalanta video was refreshing, especially considering it was from the 70s! All the Disney stuff I grew up with, all the princess stories, depicted women as helpless nitwits needing to be rescued by a Prince Charming. I never questioned it when I was a kid, but now I look back and it annoys me. Good for Atalanta, she stood her ground! Good for Marlo Thomas too!

[jbseth]

Hi All,

This topic has me wondering about the connection, if any, between the Scythians and the Scythe (the tool the Grim Reaper is typically shown holding).

According to the attached Wikipedia article:

"According to Jack Herer and Flesh of The Gods (Emboden, W. A. Jr., Praeger Press, New York, 1974), the ancient Scythians grew hemp and harvested it with a hand reaper that we still call a scythe. "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe


-jbseth

[LarryH]

Well, it turns out warrior women invented trousers for that very reason!

So whoever wears the pants in your family, you can thank women.

[T.M.]

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

If memory serves me, they first appeared or where noticed in Russia/Ottoman empire area. There's an ancient queen in Scotland called Scota, who was actually an Egyptian Pharaohs daughter. So some of those ancient people intermingled.
Blue eyes as far as I know showed up first in Egypt. I think the Scythians had interactions with the Egyptians, they kind of where in that area.  I think the Scottish people have traditionally Red Hair.
Much of Druid history has been purposely purged. I think it likely there's a link between the Druids, Scythians and Egyptians

Cool connection JBseth!!

[Deb]

This is all so interesting to me, thanks for the additional information. It's funny how I'd never expected people back that far in "time" would have traveled the globe. I mean, we were taught people came to the Americas via the Bering Strait, but to be able to build sea-worthy boats back then just boggles my mind. I think if we could figure out how to travel "back in time" and see how people functioned a few thousand year ago, we'd be surprised at how they were more advanced than we realize.

This topic has me wondering about the connection, if any, between the Scythians and the Scythe (the tool the Grim Reaper is typically shown holding).

Actually I'd wondered about that too. Nice find! I think they were into harvesting more than hemp, it sounds like these folks liked to party and loved their weed. I've often wondered where marijuana originated. More research for me to do...

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, Hi All,

I don’t want to get too far off topic here but I happen to know someone who works in the “Cannabis” industry and he knows quite a bit about this topic; and no it’s not me. 

From what he has told me, there are 3 subspecies of cannabis: Cannabis indica, Cannabis sativa and Cannabis ruderalis.

The attached Wikipedia articles say that Cannabis ruderalis is a species that is native to central and eastern Europe and Russia. That is perhaps the form of Cannabis, that the Scythians were familiar with.  Cannabis indica is found in the Indian subcontinent area and Cannabis sativa is indigenous to Eastern Asia.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_ruderalis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_indica

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_sativa


- jbseth

[Deb]

From what he has told me, there are 3 subspecies of cannabis: Cannabis indica, Cannabis sativa and Cannabis ruderalis.

Ha ha ha, thanks for the info. I should have just asked my son, he has an unnatural knowledge about everything about weed. And god forbid I call it pot, I"m such an old fuddy duddy. I'd heard of the indica and sativa from him, but the ruderalis was new to me. It makes sense though, reading about the Scythians and all, that it would have originated in that area. How people decide what to do with herbs (tinctures, poultice, ingest... smoke) is also interesting to me. Same thing with food -- who decided there was something edible inside of coconuts? Maybe that one came from observing animal behavior. I heard that's how coffee beans were "discovered", watching sheep eating the plants and getting a burst of energy.

Sometimes raw instincts come into play. When I was about five my best friend Jimmy and I were running through the woods, pretending to be native Americans. We crawled under a large felled tree that was blocking our path and somehow he really scraped his back in the process. Enough that it was bleeding. I had the impulse to grab some leaves from a nearby plant, which stopped the bleeding. It was only about 10 years ago that I found out that was the right move: it seems the native Americans used the same plant to stop bleeding and relieve pain: Plantain (plantago major). It's now invasive in my vegetable garden so I'm always reminded of that day.

Sometimes I really surprise myself.

[jbseth]

I had the impulse to grab some leaves from a nearby plant,

Hi Deb,

I also think that maybe some people also learned about plants by following their impulses, like you did with your friend Jimmy.

Seth was really big on following impulses.

Neat story Deb.

-jbseth

[Deb]

Today I was finally able to download The Amazons and listen to the first hour and I have to say it's fascinating! Even just listening to the prologue/intro was worth every second. I don't know why I find this all so fascinating, I was never much into mythology and only heard about Amazon Women in passing years ago. It turns out the myths are based on fact and the author already has done an amazing job explaining how this tribe became the basis of Greek (and more) myths, how archeologists have been unraveling the myths and sorting fact from fiction. Even going into detail of how the name Amazon came about and how it was wrongly labeled a tribe of warrior women, but instead an ethnic group consisting of women, men and children, but the women were considered equals. Much mention of the Scythians.

I remember the name Atalanta from the Free to Be You and Me record from the 70's:

The prologue detailed the entire myth of Atalanta and I have to say the myth was a lot more risqué than Marlo Thomas' version. 

Right out of the chute, I'd recommend this book. I think anyone with a library card/membership can download the book for free from Hoopla. I'm really enjoying the audio version, the narrator is excellent. Unfortunately any photos from the print book would be unavailable.

[jbseth]

Hi Deb, H All,

I was able to request and check out Adrienne Mayor’s “Amazon” book from our local library system.  This book has many great black and white drawings, photos and maps scattered throughout as well as about 8 pages of really great colored photos between Chapters 7 and 8.

Yes, I agree, Adrienne Mayor’s story about Atalanta in the Prologue was much different than that from Marlo Thomas.  I especially thought it was interesting how Atalanta and Hippomenes, in their “friskiness” were transformed into a pair of lions.


At the same time that I checked the “Amazon” book, I also checked out Joseph Campbell’s book, “Goddesses: Mysteries of the Feminine Divine” which I read a couple of years ago. This Joseph Campbell book is all about the various goddesses in the ancient world and the cultures that believed in them. I thought that maybe this book might also have something things to say about the Amazons or the Scythians.

When I first read this “Goddesses” book several years ago, I found it really interesting how many of these old world stories and beliefs seemed to be very similar to some of the stories in the Bible. Could it be that many of the stories in the Bible were actually taken from the stories of these other cultures?

Anyway, in Joseph Campbells book, he doesn’t talk about the Amazons, but he does talk about an ancient culture that he refers to as the “Indo-Europeans”. From what he says about them, I think that these “Indo-Europeans” are probably the Scythians.

He also seems to indicate that these “Indo-Europeans” were the “Aryans”, the ancient people from the Black Sea area who not only moved into Eastern Europe but they also moved into Persia and India. These Aryans were the people in Persia that believed in Zoroaster and were the people in India who believed in the Hindu religion. It sounds like these Scythians had quite an impact on the world.

-jbseth