Seth on astrology

[Sena]

Seth had very little to say about astrology. This is one quote:

"Now, many are efficient in one particular reality, and devoted to it. But the Sumari coordinate very well, and move within a freedom that is denied to many. It is simply their nature. ("What brings a group together?" Rob asked. "I know I'm speaking of beginnings and endings, but what causes a group of Sumari to congregate?") They congregate, in those terms, seldom. They did not suddenly get together and decide "We will be a group." ("I realize that," Rob said, "but why did they get together?") Because of the bonds of affection and understanding and instant intuitional comprehension that allows them to recognize one another. It is an instant recognition of brotherhood and unity of purpose, and in a strange manner, overall, of temperament. Now. Astrology, as it is thought of, and as it is taught, you see, represents but a vague shadow of something far different. Consciousness generally can be divided into certain characteristics, hardly the number, the small number, presently given to it, for example, in charts, the twelve houses. Now, that sort of thing is a dim shadow, in three-dimensional terms, dealing with one planet, of a much more vast system. And in that vast system there are this particular group of people, who are united by certain traits and similarities. ("Are there other such groups?") There are indeed. ("All right," Rob pursued, "say some speakers are Sumari, but might another group of speakers be of another family?") The speakers generally do not fall into any particular group. Do you follow me? There will be groups of speakers, within these large guilds. Now, I am using that term purposely." (from "The Personal Sessions: Book One of the Deleted Seth Material: Personal Seth Sessions 11/15/65 - 12/6/71" by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/egMhTQD

I am not a great believer in astrology, but I feel there is "something" in it.

I was woken up this morning at 7 a.m. by a phone call from Sri Lanka (We are in the U.K. at present). It was from my wife's nephew who we had appointed to sell a piece of land on our behalf. There followed a hectic half hour, during which I had to photograph several documents and send them to Sri Lanka by Whatsapp. Eventually we had a call informing us that the land had been sold and the money deposited in our account.

Later that morning I bought a newspaper, mainly to read about the corona apidemic. My wife then happened to read the "horoscope" section. This is what it said for my star sign Taurus:

"A situation early on will call for you to give specific attention to money matters, spending and any financial arrangements you have with others. If an unexpected sum of cash is received, park any excess funds where they are likely to earn the most interest."

https://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/horoscopes/taurus/daily/

Apart from the astrological aspect, there is also an element of synchronicity in that I happened to buy that particular newspaper. I buy a newspaper about once a week. As for selling land, the last time we did that was 20 years ago.

The Seth quote above seems quite "deep" and not easy to understand. I would be interested to know how other members interpret this. Seth seems to be saying the division of the zodiac into 12 is a reflection of the division of conscious entities into groups. Some of these groups are groups of Speakers, but there are also other kinds of groups.

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

This is a great topic; Astrology. Thanks for starting it Sena.   

When Seth says:

"Consciousness generally can be divided into certain characteristics, hardly the number, the small number, presently given to it, for example, in charts, the twelve houses. "

I think that he's referring to his nine (I believe that there were nine) "families of consciousness", one of these being the Sumari, of which Jane was a member. He talks about these various "families of consciousness", in UR2 as I recall.



I find it interesting that there are several different versions of this astrology concept practiced in several different places across the globe. For example in some of the far eastern cultures, they have an astrological type of belief that's based upon the year you were born, not the date and time. They reference for example, the year of the dog, year of the horse, etc. where certain human characteristics are based upon the year you were born.



I also don't have a very strong belief in either, astrology or this year you were born concept.

I think that, like a lot of things, a lot of this has to do with "belief". For people who "believe" in astrology, astrology seems to work and this then reinforces their belief in it. I also think that sometimes astrologers are also intuitive and sometimes their intuition is valid. I also think that the nature of synchronous events tie into this as well.


I will also admit that your horoscope today was really pretty interesting.   

-jbseth

[Sena]

I also don't have a very strong belief in either, astrology or this year you were born concept.

jbseth, I am continuing to read about astrology. What some people are saying is that astrology is just one form of synchronicity. So the big topic is synchronicity, and astrology is only a sub-topic. Seth had something to say about synchronicity, but not very much.

[LarryH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP7Ys9ocTk

[Sena]

Larry, I was not able to view your video as it is blocked in the U.K. on copyright grounds. I searched Google for "Derren Brown on astrology" and found this:

"In a recent dialogue a man told me he became disillusioned with astrology largely as a result of a 'test' by illusionist Derren Brown. Brown presented a group of young individuals with the same horoscope. They all claimed it was accurate and personal. Though this appeared to be very damning for astrology, it was no more than a clever trick designed to create an illusion. I trust that I am not breaking any magician's secrets by revealing the techniques.

It was no 'scientific experiment' when James Randi or Derren Brown persuaded a group to identify with the same horoscope. It is a performance by a conjuror and an illusionist to reinforce their personal bias. You may wonder why no one has been able to replicate this trick under scientific conditions. Here is in the inside track on Derren Brown's version, which is the most recent, and most slick."

"Derren Brown is a mentalist and extremely persuasive. He gets desired results using his self-confessed expertise in psychological manipulation and his hypnotic manner."


"Outside of astrology, Brown is harsh about people who claim to have psychic experiences - calling psychic readers dishonest. I am no psychic, but until you walk in someone else's shoes, you are in no position to judge their experience. Knowing what it is like to be exposed and unfairly judged in the public eye, Derren should know better than to go around denying or ridiculing other people's experience.

There's something rather desperate about a magician resorting to tricks to try to prove a point that scientists have been unable to do."

http://www.astrology.co.uk/tests/dbtest.htm

[LarryH]

Sena, I agree that Derren Brown has a cynical attitude about many of the topics discussed here. I happen to share his attitude toward astrology, but not his attitude toward psychic abilities. He is a mentalist and uses many techniques that can mimic psychic performances. The video that I posted is not a magic trick. He simply had groups of people write down their birthdates and if they knew it, their times of birth. He then told them that he would try to be specific in writing their individual astrological charts. He provided their charts and had them evaluate the percentage of accuracy. The responses (or at least all that were not edited out) ranged from 40-99%. Some who had been skeptical were convinced that astrology must be real. He then had them exchange their charts with others, at which point they found that all the charts were identical. Their individual reactions (again, any that were not edited out) were uniformly positive, entertained, even joyful. Nobody appeared to feel humiliated. His many YouTube videos are entertaining and informative of how easily manipulated we can be. That being said, he is an arrogant son-of-a-bitch.

[Sena]

Larry, you may be interested in reading this article on Carl Jung's views on astrology:

https://tinyurl.com/JungAstrology

A quote from the article:

"Jung spent time researching astrological concepts, and said that astrology is an example
of synchronicity on a big scale, although he did not exclude the possibility of causal
relationship."

[LarryH]

Seth seems to be saying that astrology as currently understood has only a vague resemblance to its actual basis. It seems to me that whatever validity it may have is how it could positively influence a person's life. A focus on such nebulous or tiny influences may distract one from more obvious influences in one's life. As Seth says, you get what you concentrate upon, and our beliefs create our reality. So if one is steeped in believing in astrology, it will confirm one's beliefs. If one is told that he has a certain characteristic because of where the planets were when he was born, he either already knows that he has that characteristic or he is opened to that possibility. And the latter may not be a bad thing, the former has no added value. One could say that whatever is thrown before us is useful, whether that be an astrological chart, tarot cards, tea leaves, or I-ching coins. To the extent that we are intuitive creatures, we (or an intuitive or psychic reader) take whatever we/they see and make use of it. The intuitive sees things that the raw data may not present, elaborating on the meaning of the Tarot cards in ways that are specific to the person. Someone close to me consulted an astrologer who had a very specific prediction about one of my daughters for the month of October. We shall see. I am open to any possibility. I seek balance. After all, I am a Libra.

[jbseth]

Hi LarryH, Hi Sena, Hi All,

I just got through watching the Derren Brown video. 

I'm always amazed that people like Derren and James Randi for example who present themselves as people who can "prove" that no truth exists in the reality of such topics as psychic ability, astrology, etc., always tend to shield their proof or their truths, from a lack of critical thinking.    What's that all about?

Critical thinking, is a fundamental concept in science. It's also intended to be part of the scientific method.  Wikipedia defines "critical thinking" as follows:

"Critical thinking is the analysis of facts to form a judgment. The subject is complex, and several different definitions exist, which generally include the rational, skeptical, unbiased analysis, or evaluation of factual evidence."


At around 6:44 into the video, Derren says the following:

"This is a skill, it's something called "cold reading". It's a technique used by people who claim to be psychic, people who claim to talk to the dead, it's as old as the hills."

And it's here where this shielding, this lack of critical thinking, this bias and to be honest, the closed-mindedness shows up.   


It may be true that some people who claim to be psychic are performing cold readings. However, this doesn't prove that all psychics are performing cold readings. This doesn't prove that all people who claim to be psychics, aren't psychic.


These people like Derren however, are often so determined to make their point, that they completely disregarding critical thinking. Strangely enough, as a result of this, they end up putting themselves into the same category as the fraudulent psychics.  That is, they too are guilty, of trying to pull the wool our people's eyes; they're also frauds.

I suspect that there may be several reasons why these people are motivated to do this. One might be the fear of being duped or con'ed by someone else. Another might be the fear of not being able to explain psychic ability in the narrow minded scientific belief system that they accept as truth.

As we can see in this video, Derren did manage to convince at least one person (the woman who talks in the video at around the 8:00 minute mark) not to believe in psychic,  card readers, etc,. based upon his ability to perform cold readings.


In regards to this topic, I like Seth says about "truth" and those who are certain of their answers, in SS, Appendix, S596:

[...] Those who persist, therefore, in shielding their truths from questions threaten to destroy the validity of their knowledge.

Again, those who are so certain of their answers will lack that need to know that can lead them into still greater dimensions of understanding....


People like Derren and James Randi, are so certain that psychic capabilities don't exist, that they completely miss the opportunity to learn more about these capabilities. 

-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi All,

Astrology or no, I find it interesting that on that specific day, Sena's horoscope said the following:

"A situation early on will call for you to give specific attention to money matters, spending and any financial arrangements you have with others."

What would you call that? coincidence, synchronistic, psychic, intuitive,....

- jbseth

[Sena]

Seth seems to be saying that astrology as currently understood has only a vague resemblance to its actual basis. It seems to me that whatever validity it may have is how it could positively influence a person's life. A focus on such nebulous or tiny influences may distract one from more obvious influences in one's life. As Seth says, you get what you concentrate upon, and our beliefs create our reality. So if one is steeped in believing in astrology, it will confirm one's beliefs.

Larry, I agree that it would be a mistake to get "hung up"on astrology. I have no intention of consulting an astrologer, and I probably won't look at the horoscope in the newspaper. I think that relying on astrology as a guide to conducting one's life would be a mistake. Our inner self has better ways of guiding us. Astrology is simply one example of the occurrence of synchronicity in our lives.

[LarryH]

Astrology or no, I find it interesting that on that specific day, Sena's horoscope said the following:

"A situation early on will call for you to give specific attention to money matters, spending and any financial arrangements you have with others."

What would you call that? coincidence, synchronistic, psychic, intuitive,....

Since this was to apply to all Taurus's, it would apply to 8.33% of the world's population. I suppose if a poll were conducted of 12,000 people on that day and asked each if that statement were true about their day, then asked their astrological sign (and eliminating all who had read that horoscope that day), you might find the answer.

[LarryH]

I prefer to deal with issues more directly. Worrying about whether Mercury is in retrograde is a distraction.

[jbseth]

Since this was to apply to all Taurus's, it would apply to 12.5% of the world's population. I suppose if a poll were conducted of 12,000 people on that day and asked each if that statement were true about their day, then asked their astrological sign (and eliminating all who had read that horoscope that day), you might find the answer.

Hi LarryH, Hi All,

Or perhaps it could be that Sena, in creating his reality, selected the probable reality where certain things occurred on that day and one of these being that, on that day, his horoscope would make a comment about him dealing with finances. 

- jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi All,

In the spoiler below I've captured part of a session where Seth talks about astrology.  I really like his example of a philosophical ant.

Sorry but you must log in to view spoiler contents.

-jbseth

[Deb]

Four years ago I was coming upon a milestone birthday. In addition to that, I was facing circumstances in my life that were unbelievably challenging. In order to get through that, I distracted myself with a fantasy goal:  A solo trip on a week-long horseback riding adventure in Cornwall, England. Galloping across the moors, "Heeeathcliff" echoed in my mind. Followed by a fantasy week in St Petersburg, Russia, which for some reason also captured my imagination. I was willing to die on this trip. It turned out to be better than I imagined.

A friend at the time of my planning had had a reading by an out-of-state astrologist. Being quite nervous about my out-of-character adventure, I thought, why not consult her too? It was certainly affordable.

I have to say the reading blew my mind. I recorded it, but have not listened to it since then. I probably should. Somehow, she was so accurate in the reading of my past and immediate future that I was incredibly impressed. And my recollection is that she was spot on with the trip.

My thinking at the time was that astrology, palm reading, Tarot readers, psychics—were people who were in touch with their inner selves, and while their methods were different, the results were the same. Stars, cards, whatever, some people have the ability to tap into F2 regardless of what their props may be.

I have another milestone coming up in January. I wonder what new adventure I'll plan for myself.

[LarryH]

When astrology works, it works because the astrologer is using his or her creative and psychic abilities, and then projecting that knowledge into a pattern that is of itself too small to contain it. The chart then simply becomes an aid.

Wow, that is exactly what I was getting at when I said:

One could say that whatever is thrown before us is useful, whether that be an astrological chart, tarot cards, tea leaves, or I-ching coins. To the extent that we are intuitive creatures, we (or an intuitive or psychic reader) take whatever we/they see and make use of it. The intuitive sees things that the raw data may not present, elaborating on the meaning of the Tarot cards in ways that are specific to the person.

[Sena]

Stars, cards, whatever, some people have the ability to tap into F2 regardless of what their props may be.

Deb, that's an interesting way of looking at it. Perhaps everybody has this ability, but many people (like scientists and the religious) choose to ignore these manifestations. Human beings are very good at not seeing what is in front of their noses. If I told my story to some people I know, they would laugh at me.

[Sena]

I am, however, trying to show you that you are not ruled by the stars

jbseth, thanks for that quote. Many people in India and Sri Lanka believe "they are ruled by the stars". I agree with Seth that this is a wrong interpretation of astrology. I think Carl Jung's discovery that astrology is just one form of synchronicity is a brilliant one.