Author Topic: Magic is to religion as technology is to science  (Read 271 times)

Offline Sena

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The quote in the title is from parapsychologist Dean Radin.

“The conscious idea of magic, then, is a mask, or contrived version, of the psyche’s innate clairvoyant, telepathic, and precognitive abilities. We permit distorted versions of those attributes to surface as magic, as entertainment — which thus relieves us of the need to take them seriously. That’s the course our species has chosen during much of our recorded history, so far, and for many reasons." (from "The Magical Approach: Seth Speaks About the Art of Creative Living (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

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« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 05:08:50 AM by Sena »

Offline leidl

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Sena, is it clear from context what Radin meant with this quote?  I feel like the goal of science is to understand the natural world, whereas technology offers solutions to problems.  So...religion tries to understand the so-called "supernatural" world, and magic gives solutions to problems? 

Maybe.  Except that religion too often simply makes assertions about the nature of things, and takes aim at whatever disagrees with it.  :-)

I like the Seth quote, and agree that magic as entertainment can make light of the larger implications of precognition, etc.  Do you think technology similarly makes light of the implications of science?  Or was Radin saying something different?
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Offline Sena

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Quote from: leidl
I like the Seth quote, and agree that magic as entertainment can make light of the larger implications of precognition, etc.  Do you think technology similarly makes light of the implications of science?  Or was Radin saying something different?
leidl, I think what Radin meant was that magic is an essential component of religion, just as technology is an essential component of science. Governments give money for scientific research because they hope that science will produce economically profitable technologies. In the same way, people will be interested in religion if it helps them in "magical" ways like the prevention and healing of illness.

The Radin quote is from his book "Real Magic". This is the quote in context:

“Magic is to religion as technology is to science.
That is, one difference between religion and magic is that the former is essentially a faith-
based theory about the nature of reality, while the latter involves testable applications of that
theory. Theories provide meaningful structures proposed to account for an otherwise chaotic and
bewildering existence, while applications provide the means of controlling some of the chaos.
The religion-magic relationship is actually more complex than the science-technology
connection because there are two major categories of magic: supernatural and natural. Initially,
everything was considered to be supernatural because our earliest ancestors had no idea about how
anything worked. So they naturally attributed everything to invisible, supernatural causes, meaning
above or beyond the natural world—the divine, or one or more gods.
Then someone noticed that there were aspects of nature that were predictable—the
movements of the sun and stars, healing qualities of certain muds and plants—and that realization
sparked interest in visible, here-and-now, human-centric natural magic. Supernatural magic was
eventually adopted by religion, and natural magic split into two branches, the exoteric (outer,
physical world) and the esoteric (inner, mental world). The exoteric branch evolved into today’s
science. The esoteric branch is where magic has been hiding.”

Radin considers channeling a form of magic, and he quotes from a Seth book:

“There are hundreds of contemporary channelers; some of the better-known include Ruth
Montgomery, Elizabeth Clare Prophet, Kevin Ryerson, J. Z. Knight, and Jack Pursel. Two of the
more influential channelers of the twentieth century were academic psychologist Helen Schucman
(1909–1981) and author Jane Roberts (1929–1984). Their channeled books, A Course in Miracles
and Seth, respectively, have sold millions of copies. The Seth material in particular closely reflects
the esoteric and magical traditions:

“Your thoughts, studied, will let you see where you are going. They point clearly to the
nature of physical events. What exists physically exists first in thought and feeling. There is no
other rule….Matter is formed by those inner qualities that give it vitality, that structure follows
expectation, that matter at any time can be completely changed by the activation of the creative
faculties inherent in all consciousness.”(NOPR)”
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Offline leidl

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Quote from: Sena
leidl, I think what Radin meant was that magic is an essential component of religion, just as technology is an essential component of science

Okay, thank you Sena.  My first thought was something along those lines, but I decided that while technology is extremely helpful, one can form hypotheses, collect data and draw conclusions using nothing other than one's senses, thus technology is not strictly necessary to science.  Perhaps I was overthinking this.  :)

Quote from: Sena
Governments give money for scientific research because they hope that science will produce economically profitable technologies. In the same way, people will be interested in religion if it helps them in "magical" ways like the prevention and healing of illness

Yes, absolutely.  Appreciate the explication, and I specifically like your observation about people being drawn to religion for its magic. I'm going to try to get my very religious Phil of Religion students to reflect on whether this might be a part of why they are religious.  Always good to plant the seeds of self-awareness.

Not sure about Radin's distinction between natural and supernatural magic, and exo- and esoteric magic.  I feel like magic is all natural.  The fact that mainstream science doesn't acknowledge precognition doesn't mean it hasn't been proved or isn't natural.  Radin's way of defining exoteric and esoteric are new to me, and make me curious to read more about him.  Or maybe listen to one of Jeffrey Mishlove's interviews of him.  Thanks!

Online jbseth

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Hi All,

It seems to me that what Dean Radin had to say about magic is different than what Seth had to say about it. Here’s some interesting things that Seth had to say about “magic”, in WTH, Ch 2, March 10, 1984.


Dictation. In any case, magic is everywhere in the operation of your body, and in the operation of the world.

My definition of magic is this: Magic is nature unimpeded, or magic is life unimpeded. It is true that your thoughts and emotions and beliefs form the reality that you experience — but it is also true that this creative construction is, in a manner of speaking, magically formed. That is, the construction of your body and the construction of a world (pause) are produced with the greatest combination of order and spontaneity — an order and spontaneity that seems hidden rather than apparent (all intently).

You think, for example, without consciously knowing how you do so, and you speak long sentences without consciously being aware at the beginning of the sentence what the conclusion will be.

This does not mean that you must forever remain in ignorance, but it does mean that there are different kinds of knowledge, and that all of your information does not come by reasoning alone. You grew from a fetus into an adult, for instance, so obviously some part of you does know how to perform such an amazing activity as the growth and care of the physical body. The reasoning mind alone, however, cannot by itself grow even the smallest cell, or activate the life of even one molecule, yet the growth and maintenance of the body is constant.

The same hidden ability that promotes your body’s health and vitality also fulfills and preserves the world in general. All of this is done playfully, and yet emerges with the greatest display of order and design.

When you become too serious you overwork your intellect and tire your body, for then it seems that your entire life depends upon the reasoning of your intellect alone. Instead, of course, your intellectual abilities are supported and promoted by that inner mixture of spontaneity and order that so magically combine to form both your reality and the reality of the world.


-jbseth

Offline Sena

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Quote from: leidl
I'm going to try to get my very religious Phil of Religion students to reflect on whether this might be a part of why they are religious.  Always good to plant the seeds of self-awareness.
leidl, is teaching your occupation? Very interesting. Radin's statement may be true, but it is an over-simplification. Religion has other benefits - helping relaxation, giving a sense of community. I was looking for a non-religious meditation group in our area, but they are almost all associated with religion, mainly Buddhism. Many years ago I was involved with a "Gnostic" group, but had to give it up as they were becoming fanatical:

https://gnosispracticesandbooks.wordpress.com/rabolu/
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 09:24:15 AM by Sena »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: jbseth
It seems to me that what Dean Radin had to say about magic is different than what Seth had to say about it.
jbseth, yes, Seth did have some very original things to say about magic:

"The magical approach takes it for granted that the human being is a united creature, fulfilling purposes in nature even as the animals do, whether or not those purposes are understood. (Pause.) The magical approach takes it for granted that each individual has a future, a fulfilling one, even though death may be tomorrow. The magical approach takes it for granted that the means for development are within each individual, and that fulfillment will happen naturally. Overall, that approach operates in your world. If it did not, there would be no world." (from "The Magical Approach: Seth Speaks About the Art of Creative Living (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

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"The idea, then, of the novel came from past and future events, though you were to catch up with those future events very quickly. Your mind intuitively organized all of that material, and put it together in a completely new fashion. Sometimes when such events occur, the precognitive trigger is not even recognized when it is encountered physically, because it happens too far ahead of time. (To me:) You organize mental and physical events in a creative manner. In this case a novel was involved because the concept, while strongly involving images, carried a time span that would make narrative necessary. You used the magical approach." (from "The Magical Approach: Seth Speaks About the Art of Creative Living (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 01:55:16 AM by Sena »

Online jbseth

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Hi Sena, Hi All, 

Dean Radin’s book, “Real Magic” (see Amazon website below) sounds real interesting.

Have you read this book or have you been reading it?  If so, what do you think so far?


https://www.amazon.com/Real-Magic-Ancient-Science-Universe/dp/1524758825/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=real+magic&qid=1616012621&sr=8-1



-jbseth


Online jbseth

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Quote from: Sena
“Magic is to religion as technology is to science.

That is, one difference between religion and magic is that the former is essentially a faith-based theory about the nature of reality, while the latter involves testable applications of thattheory. Theories provide meaningful structures proposed to account for an otherwise chaotic andbewildering existence, while applications provide the means of controlling some of the chaos.

The religion-magic relationship is actually more complex than the science-technologyconnection because there are two major categories of magic: supernatural and natural. Initially,everything was considered to be supernatural because our earliest ancestors had no idea about howanything worked. So they naturally attributed everything to invisible, supernatural causes, meaningabove or beyond the natural world—the divine, or one or more gods.

Then someone noticed that there were aspects of nature that were predictable—themovements of the sun and stars, healing qualities of certain muds and plants—and that realizationsparked interest in visible, here-and-now, human-centric natural magic. Supernatural magic waseventually adopted by religion, and natural magic split into two branches, the exoteric (outer,physical world) and the esoteric (inner, mental world). The exoteric branch evolved into today’sscience. The esoteric branch is where magic has been hiding.”


Hi All, 

I was curious about the quote above by Dean Radin in his book, “Real Magic” and why specifically he said this.

Yesterday I found out that our local library had a copy of this book and so I put a hold on it. Today I was notified by email that the book was ready and so this afternoon, I drove over, picked it and then started reading it.

Wow, what an interesting book this is.

I knew that Dean Radin was associated with IONS (Institute of Noetic Sciences) and it has been my experience that those people seem to be a pretty open-minded group.

I’m happy to report that there is nothing in this book that changes my mind on this.

Here we have Dean Radin, the “Chief” scientist of IONS, and he’s telling us that not only does psi exist and work, but it also has been proven many times, scientifically.  What a breath of fresh air.   

I’m only up to about page 20 so far (it’s an easy and interesting read) and the book is only about 220 pages long.
I don’t think that his statement above, which can be found at the very beginning of Chapter 4, reflects very well on what he has said so far in this book.  Maybe after I read Chapter 4, I’ll have a better understanding of why he said this and what he’s actually referring to here.

I agree with leidl. I too think that magic is probably all “natural” and so far, I kind of sense from what Dean Radin’s saying, I think he does too.


-jbseth



Offline Sena

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Quote from: jbseth
I’m only up to about page 20 so far (it’s an easy and interesting read) and the book is only about 220 pages long.
I don’t think that his statement above, which can be found at the very beginning of Chapter 4, reflects very well on what he has said so far in this book.  Maybe after I read Chapter 4, I’ll have a better understanding of why he said this and what he’s actually referring to here.
jbseth, thanks for encouraging us to read more of the book!

Another quote from the book:

"To fundamentalists, the Harry Potter books were always wicked, but in their eyes the
presence of evil was highlighted after J. K. Rowling revealed that the character Albus Dumbledore,
the revered headmaster of the Hogwarts magic school, was homosexual. That revelation
prompted religious conservative Tom Barrett to write,
In her Harry Potter books [J. K. Rowling] uses material from various pagan religions
(including the Druids), witchcraft, Satanism, and dozens of spells and incantations. It should be
obvious to anyone who views the books objectively that they are designed to make the evil religion
of witchcraft acceptable to young, impressionable children
….My daughter will never read one, or
see any of the movies, because I love her
."

I am glad that our 8-year-old granddaughter is now on the third book in the Harry Potter series.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 02:03:59 AM by Sena »

Offline Deb

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"Dictation. In any case, magic is everywhere in the operation of your body, and in the operation of the world."
—WTH Chapter 2: March 10, 1984

What is magic? Or, what is considered to be magic?

I'm looking forward to what Dean Radin will say is magical, other than channeling. "Miracles are nature unimpeded" has always been one of my favorite Seth quotes, maybe even my favorite, because it's so simple and says so much. We're so used to mucking up our creations, that when things do go as they as supposed to, without our interference, we call it a miracle or "magic." I guess in a sense the miracle is that we get out of our own way at times.

I've added a few variations of the Seth quote, the concept being repeated a few times. Off topic, but what caught my interest was the use of "magic" in jbseth's Reply#4 above. I didn't remember the word used being magic, but rather miracles. Mary was comparing Rob's notes to the published books, to look for discrepancies. She did that for 27 books, I can't imagine how she did that since she had to sit in the library and go over Rob's notes word by word, no one can check out any of the collection and no photocopies or photographing allowed. This looks like one of those discrepancies, but I looked in her notes and she didn't mention it.

"Magic is nature unimpeded, or magic is life unimpeded."
—WTH Chapter 2: March 10, 1984

"Miracles are nature unimpeded, as Seth has said."
—WTH Chapter 14: August 9, 1984

"Some time ago, I said something to the effect that seeming miracles were simply caused by nature unimpeded."
—TPS4 Deleted Session November 12, 1977

"I told you some time ago that miracles were simply nature unimpeded,"
—TPS7 Deleted Session October 26, 1983

"I said something once to the effect that so-called miracles were simply the result of nature unimpeded, and certainly that is the case."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 5: Session 902, February 20, 1980

"In religious terms you begin to glimpse a promised land—a “land” of psyche and reality that represents unimpeded nature (again all intently."
—TPS6 Deleted Session December 9, 1981

Quote from: Radin
To fundamentalists, the Harry Potter books were always wicked, but in their eyes the presence of evil was highlighted after J. K. Rowling revealed that the character Albus Dumbledore, the revered headmaster of the Hogwarts magic school, was homosexual.

Looks like I'll have to get that Radin book.  ;)

I started reading Harry Potter to my son when he was 3 and I moved to this neighborhood. One of my neighbors came over one day with a manila envelope 1" thick with things she'd printed off the internet—the evils of Harry Potter and what I was doing to my son. The was the beginning of the end of our friendship. We read all the books and saw all the movies and I can't say how much I enjoyed that. Best books ever. I'm still waiting for my letter of acceptance from Hogwarts, lol. When her younger son was about 16 or so, he came cover here and watched every movie with my son. He couldn't get enough.

The ironic thing with Dumbledore being gay is that it was ever alluded to in the books, I think Rowling suggested that after the series was done. A gay fictitious book character, never revealed or hinted at in the books, makes the reaction doubly ridiculous.

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
I started reading Harry Potter to my son when he was 3 and I moved to this neighborhood. One of my neighbors came over one day with a manila envelope 1" thick with things she'd printed off the internet—the evils of Harry Potter and what I was doing to my son. The was the beginning of the end of our friendship. We read all the books and saw all the movies and I can't say how much I enjoyed that. Best books ever.

Deb, I am unfortunately too old to enjoy the Harry Potter books, but it's great that children enjoy them.

Online jbseth

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Quote from: Sena
"To fundamentalists, the Harry Potter books were always wicked, but in their eyes thepresence of evil was highlighted after J. K. Rowling revealed that the character Albus Dumbledore,the revered headmaster of the Hogwarts magic school, was homosexual. That revelationprompted religious conservative Tom Barrett to write,

In her Harry Potter books [J. K. Rowling] uses material from various pagan religions(including the Druids), witchcraft, Satanism, and dozens of spells and incantations. It should beobvious to anyone who views the books objectively that they are designed to make the evil religionof witchcraft acceptable to young, impressionable children….My daughter will never read one, orsee any of the movies, because I love her.
"


Hi Sena, Hi All, 

I agree. I think that the Harry Potter books and movies are absolutely awesome. Not only did J.K. Rowling put a lot of creative ideas into her books, which make them very fun to read, but she also included some very important society based educational topics as well.

For example, in book 3, “The Prisoner of Azkaban”, Harry learns how it can be wrong to be pre-judgemental about people, as in the case of Sirius Black. He also learns that sometimes even good people can be extremely dangerous to others, even though they don’t necessarily want to be, as in the case of Professor Lupin. Then, in addition to all of that, Harry also learns something about self-empowerment, in that it was Harry himself who actually casted the “patronus” spell that ended up saving both him and Sirius Black from the dementors.

I really liked Book 3 very much and I’m excited for your granddaughter as she discovers the fun, adventure and magic that exists in these books. 




Now, in regards to the “Real Magic” book, in the very next few sentences immediately after the quote above, Dean Radin writes the following (Note: Tom Barrett is the man who said he’d never let his daughter read a Harry Potter book).

“Barrett’s profound horror about a popular children’s tale is part of a long and important part of the story of magic. It’s the reason why magic became an esoteric (hidden) tradition instead of an exoteric (open) practice. The chilling effect of centuries of religious and scientific polemics against magic cannot be overstated.”


I think that this quote here where Dean Radin talks about both esoteric and exoteric explains, to some degree, his usage of these same words in regards to what he says about natural magic following his statement “Magic is to religion as technology is to science”.

I’ve also gone back and looked over the first 3 chapters of this book in trying to understand what Dean Radin he was saying, when he made the quote that follows the “Magic is to religion …” statement and I’ve come to believe that a lot of it has to do with how he defines “magic”. 


In the very beginning of the first page of Chapter 1, he tells us the following.

This book is about magic.
“Not the fictional magic of Harry Potter, the feigned magic of Harry Houdini, or the fraudulent magic of con artists. …

“This book is about real magic”.


 
Then he says this.

Real magic falls into three categories: mental influence of the physical world, perception of events distance in time or space and interactions with non-physical entities. The first type I’ll call force of will; it’s associated with spell casting and other techniques meant to intentionally influence events or actions.  The second is divination; it’s associated with practices such as reading Tarot cards and mirror-gazing. The third is theurgy, from the Greek meaning, “god-work”; it involves methods for evoking and communicating with spirits.”


Later on in chapter two, Dean tells us that he has been involved with investigating psychic phenomena, or “psi”, such as telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition and psychokinesis. He tells us that these topics are studied within the discipline of parapsychology.

Then a little later in this same chapter, he tells us that he felt that the aims of the Parapsychological Association were completely in accord with the highest aspirations of science and so he joined the organization and was elected its president five times.


Then, a litter further on into the book Dean seems to be talk about magic, in terms of witchcraft and shamanism. So, in addition to talking about magic in terms of psi type of experiences, he also seems to be talking about magic in terms of witchcraft and shamanism as well. This then, seems to be basically what he means by “magic”.


However, it seems to me that when magic is defined in just this way, it doesn’t appear to address many of the other possible phenomenon that could also be classified as magic.

Here I’m talking about other phenomena such as the sightings of ghosts, spontaneous human combustion, visions of other beings such as Mothman, the Jersey Devil, Sasquatch, the Abominable Snowman and the Lock Ness Monster. It also doesn’t seem to include, levitation, bi-location, UFO’s, close encounters of the third kind (such as with Barney and Betty Hill or Whitley Strieber) sightings of ball lighting, and the Marfa lights just to name a few.


So, it seems to me that when Dean Radin is talking about magic or real magic, as he calls it, he’s really just talking about psi events and the magic of witchcraft and shamanism. However, with his definition, he isn’t necessarily talking about any of the other magic related phenomena, such as those things I’ve mentioned above.

I think that understanding what Dean seems to be saying about “real magic” helps to explain what he means when he made this quote about magic, religion, science and technology in his quote where he talks about natural magic being either esoteric and exoteric.

His definition of “real magic” may not be the definition that some of us here in this forum might use for this term.


-jbseth



Online jbseth

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Quote from: Deb
I'm still waiting for my letter of acceptance from Hogwarts, lol.


Quote from: Sena
Deb, I am unfortunately too old to enjoy the Harry Potter books, but it's great that children enjoy them.


Hi Sena, Hi Deb, Hi All, 

Hi Sena,

The 7 Harry Potter books are also all out in 8 videos (the last book was made into two videos) and for the most part, I’d say that these videos followed the books fairly well. Like Deb, I too have both read all the books and watched all the videos. 

If you wanted to (and I’m not telling you what to do here, it’s your choice) you could watch the video’s and then when you talked to your granddaughter you could talk to her about these stories. You could also point some things out to her, like how Harry learned that it’s not good to pre-judge people. 


Hi Deb,

Me too. If I ever get accepted at Hogwarts, I’m out of here in a flash.

If it ever occurs that I haven’t been here in this forum for a long time talking about some Seth related thing, then it just might be because I’m a Hogwarts. Go Gryffindor.  :) 


-jbseth

Offline Deb

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Quote from: jbseth
If you wanted to (and I’m not telling you what to do here, it’s your choice) you could watch the video’s and then when you talked to your granddaughter you could talk to her about these stories. You could also point some things out to her, like how Harry learned that it’s not good to pre-judge people.

What a great idea! Sena I honestly think you may enjoy the movies, they're not totally kid movies and it was so much fun watching the actors start out so young and grow with each movie. Very well done. And the movies are not as much a commitment of time as the books, for sure. We read the books, and also had a few on CDs and would listen to them on road trips. One time we drove down to Baja Mexico with our popup camper and listened to one of the books twice, once in each direction, did not get tired of it.

Quote from: jbseth
Go Gryffindor

I'm with you! I equate Gryffindor with the Sumari family, lol.

Oh, I forgot to mention, my FIL used to come visit while my son was growing up and he always watched the Harry Potter movies with us, and he was in his 80s. He used to get a real kick out of them, lots of humor and cleverness and the filming and sets are wonderful. When my son was 9 we took him to England and rented a canal boat for a week. Then spent another week driving on a partially Harry Potter-themed self-guided tour. Now THAT was fun! Leadenhall Market in London, Kings Cross, Gloucester Cathedral, I think somewhere else I can't remember.


« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 03:09:35 PM by Deb »

Online jbseth

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Hi Deb, Hi All, 


Yeah, I think that sharing the Harry Potter stories with our younger family members is a great way to spend some quality time with them.


Oh, Wow. That trip to England sounded like fun. Speaking of that, I need to know if they really do they have a platform at nine and three quarters at Kings Cross? I need to know just in case I ever do get my Hogwarts acceptance letter.  :)


I just finished reading Chapter 4, “Origins of Magic”, of Dean Radin’s book “Real Magic”.  In this chapter he really covers a lot of the history of magic starting at a point some time before the ancient Greeks and he goes all the way up to the 21st century. 

At this point, I’m going to take back what I said earlier about what Dean Radin was referring to, when he talked about “magic”. I think I need to finish the book first before I make any more statements about what he meant by “magic”.

This book is really very interesting though. 


-jbseth


Offline Deb

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Quote from: jbseth
Oh, Wow. That trip to England sounded like fun. Speaking of that, I need to know if they really do they have a platform at nine and three quarters at Kings Cross? I need to know just in case I ever do get my Hogwarts acceptance letter. 

No I kept looking for it, and then realized I wouldn't be able to see it until I had the letter from Hogwarts. HOWEVER, they did have a sign for Platform 9-3/4 on one of the support columns. Really. I'll see if I have a picture of it. But I think you'll be good when the time comes.  ;D

BTW, I added a new topic to the Seth Research Project Board, and wanted those of you I can reach here at this topic that if you want to get notifications of new topics there, you need to click on the board and then click on Notify. Do that for any board you want to follow.

It's easy for new topics to get lost here because unless you're subscribed to every board, you need to find them in Recent Posts and a lot of times they get lost in the shuffle. I also need to look into (again) why I'm getting sporadic notifications from people posting. As admin I should get emails about everything. It's not a new issue. I keep thinking of upgrading to the newest SMF version but it's still in beta.

https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=2319.0, "The Futurians, Jane Roberts "The Witch" and a Mystery"

Online jbseth

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Hi All,

Yesterday I finished reading Chapter 4 of Dean Radin’s book, “Real Magic”.  In this 37 page chapter, Dean reviews what he refers to here as the “Origin of Magic” but what this more or less amounts to is a review of the history of the various ideas, religions and philosophies of various people, throughout time.

In this chapter he talks about how during a 600 year time period, between maybe 800 BCE and 200 BCE, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism all appeared in the world. Along with this, at this same time Zoroaster and the ancient Greek philosophers like Pythagoras, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, also showed up.
 
Then he discusses some of their ideas like Plato and his cave. Along with this then he moves on and talks about Cicero, Thermistios, Plotinus, Pliny the Elder and the Eleusinian Mystery School for example.

A little further along, he talks about the gnostics and about how the Cather’s were persecuted during the inquisition. Then, in the Renaissance period he talks about Hermeticism, the Protestant Reformation, the Kaballah, the re-emergence of Neoplatonic thought, Paracelsus, the Rosicrucians, Sir Isaac Newton, who it turns out spent a lot of time investigating alchemy, Emanuel Swedenborg, and Franz Mesmer.

He keeps rolling along like this, talking about people and their ideas all the way up into the 21 century. This includes the Fox sisters, Spiritualism, Madam Blatvatsky, Aleister Crowley, Rudolf Steiner, Gurdjieff, Jung, Edgar Cayce, Ruth Montgomery, Seth, and a “Course in Miracles”.

Along with this, he also talks about the many of the people who wrote about the power of positive thinking and then he talks about people like Esther Hicks, Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and on and on.

There are many more people and topics in this chapter that I haven’t mentioned.


I thought that at least some of you (perhaps Sena and leidl) might find what Dean Radin has to say in this chapter to be interesting, given some of the topics that we’ve discussed in the past.

In this chapter, it does appear to me that Dean seems to be talking about what’s behind his earlier comments regarding what he calls the “esoteric” branch of “natural magic”.

-jbseth
 

Offline leidl

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Quote from: Deb
"Miracles are nature unimpeded" has always been one of my favorite Seth quotes, maybe even my favorite, because it's so simple and says so much.

Hey all!  Terrific quote, jbseth and Deb. 

Quote from: Sena
In the same way, people will be interested in religion if it helps them in "magical" ways like the prevention and healing of illness.


I'm still thinking about this idea.  Probably due to my anti-religion bias, it seemed to me at first that being drawn to a worldview for its  potential "magic" is a trait of the dis-empowered religious masses.  But the Harry Potter books strike a chord in all different kinds of people. When the books were mentioned in this thread, the energy here palpably increased.  I think of myself as being someone whose primary aim is to understand the nature of reality and the self, but perhaps that is just me slapping some pretty paint on something I'm less proud of--my hunch that healing bodies and making my bank balance balloon by thinking a few focused thoughts would be awesome.  So...I've changed my perspective to one that is kinder to Christians.  We're all attracted to "magic," because a big part of what we're in this reality to explore is how to create our reality.  Religious people are maybe more likely to sublimate their attraction to magic, making it about God's healing love, but I'm in no position to throw stones at them for sublimating.  It appears I am doing the same thing by telling myself I'm interested in the ultimate nature of reality.   ::)

I haven't read Rowling, but it isn't because I'm not interested in magic.  It's because at my age I need to sleep nights.  :)  I think Philip Pullman is probably more my cup of tea; his books can be put down and reflected upon.  (Make that tea chamomile, please.)


Quote from: jbseth
In this chapter he talks about how during a 600 year time period, between maybe 800 BCE and 200 BCE, Confucianism, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism all appeared in the world.

jbseth, is does Radin see magic as being a part of all these traditions, and point out their specifically magical elements?  I may have to read that book.  I think of Confucianism, for example, as primarily an ethical system. 

Not having the book, I started googling Radin, religion and magic, and weirdly enough ended up reading a chunk of a master's thesis by a student named Erik Haynes at Liberty University (the conservative Christian college started by Falwell).  Here's a quote where Haynes is discussing a double slit experiment conducted by Radin and a few others, and he makes some comments about the experiment that complement Seth's ideas:

"This test not only provides evidence that it is the conscious observer that collapses the wave
function, but also that when a conscious observer focuses on one result rather than another, the
result that was focused on becomes more likely to actualize
. The result is even more likely to be
actualized if the observer has experience in meditation. There have been many experiments in
psychology demonstrating the power of mental force; however, this particular one ties the mental
force aspect directly to a quantum physics experiment and has profound results.

Regarding the view that consciousness is involved in the quantum measurement problem
(QMP), the authors of this article explain that this theory has been recognized by physicists
'ranging from d’Espagnat to von Neumann, from Stapp to Squires. The significance of the
proposition and the prominence of those who have proposed it have made the idea difficult to
blithely ignore, but to many it challenges a deeply held intuition that the physical world was here,
more or less in its present form, long before human consciousness evolved to observe it.'"

  The full thesis can be read at https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1414&context=masters

I have always thought that eventually religion and science would unite, but if professors at Liberty are signing off on theses like this one, that day may be closer than I thought.  Interest in magic will unify us all.  Sir Isaac Newton, a fan of Swedenborg and Mesmer?  Of course.  :)


« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 10:12:57 PM by leidl »

Online jbseth

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Quote from: leidl
jbseth, is does Radin see magic as being a part of all these traditions, and point out their specifically magical elements?  I may have to read that book.  I think of Confucianism, for example, as primarily an ethical system. 


Hi leidl, Hi All,

I think that Dean Radin views all magic as existing in either the form of supernatural magic or natural magic.

I also think that he thinks that there’s a connection between supernatural magic and religion. Here I think he means those religions where there is some sort of God or divine  beings. To me, this would include Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism for example.  However, I’m not sure what he thinks about Confucianism, Buddhism or Taoism for example.

It also seems to me that he also believes that natural magic consists of two branches, exoteric magic and esoteric magic.

Exoteric magic, consists of things like the motion of the sun and the stars and other similar phenomenon that are predictable and repeatable. These are the things that science can be used to help us to understand.

Then there’s esoteric magic. I believe that many of the ideas of the people listed in my Reply 17 above, the ideas of Plato, Plotinus, Hermeticism, Mesmer, Swedenborg, Aleister Crowley, etc. are all ideas that represent this esoteric branch of magic.


While this is his view of magic, personally, I’m not really sold on it. I think that there may be gaps here that he hasn’t addressed.  Nor do I know for certain that I’m correctly interpreting his understanding here, but this is what I get from the book so far.

However, I’m with you. I think Confucianism is primarily some sort of ethical system and not really a religion.


-jbseth



Offline Sena

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Quote from: jbseth
He keeps rolling along like this, talking about people and their ideas all the way up into the 21 century. This includes the Fox sisters, Spiritualism, Madam Blatvatsky, Aleister Crowley, Rudolf Steiner, Gurdjieff, Jung, Edgar Cayce, Ruth Montgomery, Seth, and a “Course in Miracles”.

Along with this, he also talks about the many of the people who wrote about the power of positive thinking and then he talks about people like Esther Hicks, Louise Hay, Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and on and on.

There are many more people and topics in this chapter that I haven’t mentioned.
jbseth, one criticism I can make of Radin is that he gives a list of names, but no guidance as to whose teachings are more valuable. I can take Gurrdjieff as an example. A few years ago I was a member of a Gurdjieff forum. Some of the members there seemed to be quite confused. I finally concluded that Gurdjieff's teachings were inherently confusing.

Offline Sena

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Quote from: leidl
So...I've changed my perspective to one that is kinder to Christians.  We're all attracted to "magic," because a big part of what we're in this reality to explore is how to create our reality.
leidl, I can understand why many people find the Christian faith helpful. My father was a devout Catholic. He developed a painful spinal disorder, and did not want to undergo surgery. He went to a healer in Sri Lanka who gently manipulated his spine. The next day, my father went to Mass and received Communion. By the following day, the pain was gone, and my father said that it was the Communion which healed him. The healer did not have a label, but I think he was a "psychic surgeon". In other words, what he did was magic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychic_surgery
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 10:13:31 AM by Sena »

Offline leidl

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Sena, from the sounds of it, your father's faith served him.  I'm glad!  In some ways, it might be easier to believe that God has the power to change reality, like your father did, than to believe that it is our beliefs that change reality.  The Sethian view is more empowering, but places the responsibility for reality creation solidly on our own shoulders.  I can see how some people might reject this approach.
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Online jbseth

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Hi All,

In regards to his book “Real Magic”, I’m beginning to think that in regards to magic, Dean Radin talks about it in terms of its different aspects.

As an analogy, consider a huge box that contains many small objects that were all the size of marbles. Some of these objects are in the shape of a cube, some are in the shape of a pyramid and some are in the shape of a sphere. Furthermore, some of these cubes are red, some are green and some are blue. The same also being true for both the pyramids and the spheres.

In talking about these objects, we could describe them from two completely different aspects. We could talk about them in terms of their color, or, we could also talk about them in terms of their shape.



In Chapter 1, Dean Radin talks about magic in terms of it: 1) a force of will, 2) divination and 3) theurgy. Here, he’s appears to be talking about one aspect of magic.

Then, in Chapter 4, he’s appears to be talking about magic from a different aspect of it.  This is the chapter where he starts out by talking about magic in terms its relationship to religion and science. This is where he tells us that there are two categories of magic, supernatural magic (related to religion) and natural magic. Then, following this, he tells us that natural magic consists of two branches: 1) exoteric natural magic (related to science) and 2) esoteric natural magic. Then, in the remainder of this chapter he talks about the people and their ideas that are related to esoteric natural magic.

Then in Chapter 5, “Practice of Magic”, he talks about this subject in terms of:  1) a force of will, 2) divination and 3) theurgy.



 
In this same chapter he also talks about an interesting synchronous event that happened to him. Apparently in around the year 2,000, he decided to go looking for office space for a new research lab called “Boundary Institute”, that he and colleague decided to establish.  The purpose of this lab was to continue with some psi research that he had previously started.   

After looking at four locations, they decided to go with the last one.

After moving some furniture into this new location, he noticed the one of the businesses in this same suite of offices wat called PsiQuest.  Given that there are only a few places in the world where psi research takes place, he assumed that the “Psi” in this companies name probably stood for “Personal Services Investigations” or something like that.

About a month later after he took a new route to his office, and he noticed that the office right next to his was called “PsiQuest Research Labs”. However at that time nobody was there. For the next two weeks or so he would check in on them every once in a while so that he could introduce himself to them, being their new neighbor.

Then one day, someone was there so he went in and introduced himself.  When he went in, the man behind the desk, Jon K., the president of the company, was completely stunned when Dean walked in. It turns out that not only the people of this company was also doing psi research, but Jon K. had been using a Tibetan dream yoga technique to manifest Dean Radin himself. 

Jon K. said that he didn’t have any idea where Dean lived or was located or how to contact him.

It gets even more interesting than this. Before Dean met Jon, he (Dean) had been working out and visualizing how he wanted his lab to look, layout wise. After meeting Jon, Jon asked Dean if he would like a tour of their lab and Dean said sure. As Jon was giving Dean the tour, Dean was very surprised that Jon’s lab had the exact same layout that Dean had been visualizing.

Wow. What an amazing set of synchronous events.

-jbseth


 
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Offline Sena

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Quote from: jbseth
Wow. What an amazing set of synchronous events.
jbseth, thanks for drawing our attention to that interesting episode:

"After discussing that series of synchronicities with the other members of our institute, we
agreed that this couldn’t be a case of dumb luck. It’s as though sustained intention on the part of Jon
and myself had acted as a sort of force that drew PsiQuest and the Boundary Institute together,

analogous to gravity drawing a moon and a planet together."

Sustained intention resulting in a satisfactory outcome is very Sethian.

 

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