Seth and the veil

Started by Bora137, September 08, 2021, 04:01:53 PM

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Bora137

September 08, 2021, 04:01:53 PM Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 04:14:15 PM by Bora137
I've been looking for anything Seth says about the veil of forgetting. I can't seem to find anything or maybe I'm using the wrong search term.

Ra: The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex.

So Ra says the veil is necessary for free will to work unhindered. Free will is needed to help the individual polarise - choose the good or the selfish path basically.

This is such a massive part of our existence here - the fact we remember nothing of our previous incarnations (though some people are lucky enough to get glimpses) I'm thinking Seth must comment on it somewhere. Thanks.

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Deb

I feel that Seth covered this forgetting as a voluntary thing we've taken upon ourselves. So once again, no victims. We are so focused here as our ego selves and so reliant on our senses to tell us what's real, that we ignore and are blind to anything outside of this limited scope of perception. We have to, as you mentioned, for things like free will to work. Otherwise we'd never learn. It would be like taking a test after having been given all the answers. We communicate with our incarnations and probable selves at a different level of consciousness, but for the most part, we are unaware of that.

Here are a few short quotes I think are pretty good in conveying that idea. A LOT came up when I searched on "ignorant" and "unaware" on findingseth.com. :)

"Consciousness is a way of perceiving the various dimensions of reality. Consciousness as you know it is highly specialized. The physical senses allow you to perceive the three-dimensional world, and yet by their very nature they can inhibit the perception of other equally valid dimensions. Most of you identify with your daily physically oriented self. You would not think of identifying with one portion of your body and ignoring all other parts, and yet you are doing the same thing (smile) when you imagine that the egotistical self carries the burden of your identity."
—SS Chapter 1: Session 512, January 27, 1970

"The personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more."
—SS Chapter 1: Session 512, January 27, 1970

"Ignorance implies a refusal to see, or rather an inability to see at a given time, for various reasons."
—TPS1 Session 377 (Deleted) November 6, 1967

"You forget that in the spacious present you already are not only what you will be, but what you have been. Therefore, such personalities that you would project are already projected, and only the veil of unawareness divides you, as only the veil of unawareness ever separates one field or plane from another."
—TES3 Session 97 October 14, 1964
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Sena

September 09, 2021, 01:17:22 AM #2 Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 01:26:37 AM by Sena
Quote from: Bora137
I've been looking for anything Seth says about the veil of forgetting.
Bora, thanks for the interesting question. The idea of "the veil of forgetting" is something that Ra may have borrowed from the Bible or from the Latter Day Saints:

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/veil?lang=eng

QuoteVeil
A word used in the scriptures to mean (1) a divider separating areas of the tabernacle or temple, (2) a symbol for a separation between God and man, (3) a thin cloth worn by people to cover their face or head, or (4) a God-given forgetfulness that blocks people's memories of the premortal existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_of_salvation_in_Mormonism

QuoteLatter-day Saint beliefs include the belief in a spirit world between death and the resurrection. They believe that the "veil of forgetfulness" will be removed before they are judged thereafter, and that the spirits of all of mankind continue to prepare for judgment day and their eventual resurrection where they will receive a reward according to their faith and works.

The equivalent of "veil" in Vedanta and Buddhism is probably "maya".
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Tob

'Now. I exist simultaneously with the both of you. This should be obvious, or I would not be speaking with you; obviously therefore I also exist, speaking in your terms, as I am now and as I was. In my terms you see I simply exist in the now. There is communication between these various aspects of inner identity that are obviously cooperative. As a rule I make no attempt to take over the mechanism that Ruburt operates in any general manner. He allows me to make some adjustments in it however, and we shall discuss these in detail before too long. Now. One of the egos that was mine, you see, is a part of Ruburt's whole personality, and we use this as a bridgework. I can use it momentarily. Again, this does not mean that I am a secondary personality.

Reincarnation does mean that we are all multiple personalities with an underlying prime identity. I am myself, Ruburt is himself. Or if you prefer, Jane is herself. You forget, you see, that you have also been, and are, part of this identity, Joseph. In your particular cases now you have branched out to form prime identities of your own, though we were originally part of the same. Now. I am the prime identity that you were part of. And I was myself at one time, so to speak, a part of another prime identity. This development does not always occur, for many reasons. Some fragments of an identity simply do not wish to so develop. In the spacious present you see we are one, yet entirely individual. Now we may possibly develop into a newer gestalt, for I cannot see all portions-of the spacious present. There are still veils before my eyes. This is a part of the present I do not perceive. If so, it will be one in which identities are completely retained, and there is no question of a dominancy, but of a smooth-working organization. In the time framework within which you now exist I can help you, but you cannot help me except by allowing me to help you, you see. In the gestalt which could develop we would be in a position of helping each other more equally. Now through you I affect physical reality, and this is indeed one of my purposes. I affect reality, physical reality, because men's minds are changed according to their ideas, and we shall change these ideas for the better. The ideas, working through men, will affect physical reality for the better. I am here more often than you think. Never, however, in a prying manner.' (session 256)
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Sena

Quote from: Tob
Some fragments of an identity simply do not wish to so develop. In the spacious present you see we are one, yet entirely individual. Now we may possibly develop into a newer gestalt, for I cannot see all portions-of the spacious present. There are still veils before my eyes. This is a part of the present I do not perceive. If so, it will be one in which identities are completely retained, and there is no question of a dominancy, but of a smooth-working organization
Tob, another great find!

Bora137

September 10, 2021, 04:40:42 PM #5 Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 04:45:27 PM by Bora137
I had to get the laptop out for this one, so it is a bit long sorry
Thanks Deb, it is interesting how Seth uses the term unawareness rather than forgetting – in most cases at least. It is as if we are missing a sense or indeed simply have not properly utilised those inner senses of ours that could shed light on our other selves, which of course is what Seth continually encourages us to do. I love this one -
QuoteThe personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more
'Pretend' I love it

Sena your sources are always diverse and give great context, thanks

You continue to shed light Tob on what I have found the most difficult area to understand – that of identity and of individuality within the whole but independent of it.

I throw this in from Ra 'Firstly, you must understand that the distinction between yourself and others is not visible to us.' Brilliant – could this be more confusing for an incarnate individual haha

The fragment concept is utterly fascinating. In the https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=665.0  thread which contained a lot about Frank I said I did not like the idea of Frank being thrown together by the entity to make up for a deficit of learning in some area – in this case to experience failure and thereby learn humility. I still don't like it but this is no criticism of Seth in any way. Seth did no make reality he's just explaining it and I'm just uncomfortable with this element of reality. Frank (sorry kind of looped back round to him again) did not have a say in his incarnation. Frank is/was the entity, the entity directly experiences Frank's life and was Frank – I get all this, but Frank will go on with all the challenges imbued in him. That Frank will have help moving forward and developing I think is certain, he will know real love and real success and become something quite different, even a prime identity. I would love to know if anyone has channelled a different (sub?) 'Frank' personality.

Though uncomfortable with Frank's beginnings I also find it incredibly interesting. How many fragment personalities do I know or come across among the people I meet every day? Will they be happy to remain as they are or will they seek and become more? At the same time, what very developed souls do I know with maybe hundreds of personalities and fragments? This vast range of consciousnesses inhabit our planet – super beings to fragments all taking up the human vehicle to learn. I try to see the soul and not the shell so this adds even more interest to this practice.

I asked this question because I never believe that one teacher is 'better' than another – as long as you avoid all the false prophets. I like to try and understand their own belief systems. Ra and Seth are high up the pyramid of existence and as you get higher you get less distortion; the truth is nearer. I find no contradictions between Ra and Seth. Often I find striking similarities in their core message. Seth says you will never get a chance to help those around you in quite the same way as you are able to now (sorry I can't find the quote). Ra of course emphasises helping others. Another concept of Ra – Teach/learn and learn/teach – in teaching or helping others we learn from them. Seth is alluding to the same concept here, Tob's quote –
QuoteIn the time framework within which you now exist I can help you, but you cannot help me except by allowing me to help you, you see
I see this as you stand on my shoulders which let's me stand on your shoulders - in this was we both get higher.

I asked about the veil because I was looking for some common ideas about it between Ra and Seth. Ra clearly says it is needed for free will to operate unhindered, this is necessary so that we can be our true self, we need to be our true self so we can clearly judge  (judge like you might do a painting you were painting not judge in the sense of right and wrong – though perhaps sometimes we will feel me let ourselves down) ourselves in our life review and so plan our next incarnation and what we need to work on. Seth is not so clear on the veil's purpose – I think he sees it as a side effect of the physical senses and outward looking condition we find ourselves in. But I also think he is avoiding the 'why' question. Why do we forget? So we progress. Why do we need to progress? Ah... He doesn't want to get into this question because it will unavoidably bring in morality – the curse of all major religions because it invites judgment (to progress you must do this or that – this is right, this is wrong) which can in turn be used to subjugate. I think Seth wisely and consistently avoids this, I'm not sure any other teachers do??
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Sena

Quote from: Bora137
The personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more
Bora, thanks for finding this important Seth statement. I have not read your entire post yet, but I shall give the Kindle link to your quote here:

"I am saying, of course, that there is no such thing as dead matter. There is no object that was not formed by consciousness, and each consciousness, regardless of its degree, rejoices in sensation and creativity. You cannot understand what you are unless you understand such matters. For convenience's sake, you close out the multitudinous inner communications that leap between the tiniest parts of your flesh, yet even as physical creatures, you are to some extent a portion of other consciousnesses. There are no limitations to the self. There are no limitations to its potentials. (Pause.) You can adopt artificial limitations through your own ignorance, however. You can identify, for example, with your outer ego alone, and cut yourself off from abilities that are a part of you. You can deny, but you cannot change, the facts. The personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more. (Humorously): In this book I hope to pull some heads out of the sand." (from "Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts)

https://amzn.eu/hjasIL4


Sena

Quote from: Bora137
Ra of course emphasises helping others. Another concept of Ra – Teach/learn and learn/teach – in teaching or helping others we learn from them. Seth is alluding to the same concept here, Tob's quote –
Quote
In the time framework within which you now exist I can help you, but you cannot help me except by allowing me to help you, you see
Bora, your finding of "Teach/learn and learn/teach" in the Ra teachings is brilliant. I had missed out on that in my somewhat cursory reading:

https://www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=learn+teach

In connection with this is the Ra idea of 51% Service to Others (STO). By posting on a forum such as Speakingofseth, we are practising "Teach/learn and learn/teach" AND Service to Others.
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Tob

September 11, 2021, 01:47:55 AM #8 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 01:52:43 AM by Tob
To me, Bashar's idea of the prime radiant which is creating everything helped a lot. According to Bashar there is only one single particle travelling at infinite speed – the prime radiant. As it is 'travelling' at infinite speed it can be everywhere 'at the same time'. It is not subject to 'time'. 'Time' is subject to it. Thus, there is only 'Here and Now', because everything is made of this single 'Here and Now'- particle. In Seth's vernacular it would be this particle which is then forming CUs, EEs, and finally subatomic particles up to the level of molecules which construct what we perceive as physical reality. But everything is conscious to a certain degree, even rocks, as they are made of this single particle which is pure consciousness. Seth does not mention a single particle, but undivided consciousness, or 'All-that-is'.

According to Bashar we constantly recreate the universe at the rate of Planck time. Thus we are constantly in a newly created universe, looking through the eyes of the 'body' which is 'already there'. Like a three-dimensional film strip. According to Tom Campbell, physical reality is not real. It is virtual. It is pixelated at the level of Planck length. And 'reality' is constantly reproduced at that level at a renewal rate of Planck time. According to Seth the universe is 'blinking' and it does 'exist as often as it doesn't exist', which maybe a circumscription of Planck time, lacking the technical vernacular in Jane Robert's brain (= not having access to that technical word in Jane's brain during the transmission).

According to Bashar we get the universe which fits the vibration of our respective belief systems. According to Seth we get the universe/reality which fits the vibration of our respective belief systems. According to Seth probabilities are tested in dream time and appropriate ones materialised in '3d'. According to Seth the selection is made by the synapses as they know much more than the brain (NoPR). According to Bashar, Seth, and Tom Campbell you are creating your own universe. You are the only one in your universe. Others are in their universe, together forming a 'common bubble reality' (Bashar) in between where we all 'meet',  similar to avatars in a three-dimensional, interactive computer game (Tom Campbell). Others construct a version of you with a visible forehead. You yourself never construct a version of yourself with a visible forehead. You construct versions of others with visible foreheads. That makes more sense for the common functioning of what we perceive as 3d reality. Gravity, speed of light, etc., are all equally common denominators. Jane's cat Willy did construct a universe different from that of Jane, in that the bug on the wall was fatter and lived longer. The bug created a universe where the cat Willy consisted basically of a huge mouth with teeth and a few hairs. The bug constructed by Robert Butts was different in colour from the bug created by Jane in their apartment. Of course there were four apartments as well (created by Jane, Robert, Willy and the bug). (Seth)

The creation of reality takes place AT the synapses (Seth) and – most likely – BY the synapses. It is a selection of probable reality frames. Selection implies decision. Decision implies exclusion. Thus, the veil must come in automatically. The veil is supportive of the purpose of our learning existence, the purpose of our life – to be here 'physically' and slowly rediscover who we actually are, but from a new perspective, thus contributing a new aspect to creation (Bashar). The limitations help us to see and experience the 'progress'.
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Bora137

QuoteThe personality is multidimensional, even though many people hide their heads, figuratively speaking, in the sand of three-dimensional existence and pretend there is nothing more
Bora, thanks for finding this important Seth statement.
@Sena that's Deb's quote from above 😂....I think I'm doing quoting wrong..
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Sena

September 11, 2021, 05:01:03 AM #10 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 05:07:50 AM by Sena
Quote from: Tob
According to Bashar, Seth, and Tom Campbell you are creating your own universe. You are the only one in your universe. Others are in their universe, together forming a 'common bubble reality' (Bashar) in between where we all 'meet',  similar to avatars in a three-dimensional, interactive computer game (Tom Campbell). Others construct a version of you with a visible forehead. You yourself never construct a version of yourself with a visible forehead.
Tob, the idea of a "common bubble reality' (Bashar)" is quite interesting and is compatible with the Seth teachings:

https://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/

QuoteOur perceived "external reality" is actually an illusion (a holographic illusion) that is reflelcting (like a mirror) back to us our Beliefs, Thoughts, & Feelings.
And, like a mirror, when you change your internal Beliefs, Thoughts, & Feelings, the external reflection changes accordingly.
(A mirror does not have a mind of its own. It can only reflect back whatever is in front of it - whatever are your Beliefs, Thoughts, & Feeling.)

HOW is all this occurring?    It is your Higher Mind that is functioning as a holographic mirror, to create a holographic bubble around you, that is your "perceived external reality".

Also compatible with Neville Goddard's idea of "the feeling of your wish fulfilled":

https://youtu.be/ruYLzByrCeg

Tob

September 11, 2021, 05:48:06 AM #11 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 07:09:23 AM by Tob
Quote from: Tob
Quote from: Sena
Quote from: Tob
According to Bashar, Seth, and Tom Campbell you are creating your own universe. You are the only one in your universe. Others are in their universe, together forming a 'common bubble reality' (Bashar) in between where we all 'meet',  similar to avatars in a three-dimensional, interactive computer game (Tom Campbell). Others construct a version of you with a visible forehead. You yourself never construct a version of yourself with a visible forehead.
Tob, the idea of a "common bubble reality' (Bashar)" is quite interesting and is compatible with the Seth teachings:

https://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/



Unfortunately, the term 'bubble reality' was neither used nor defined by Seth. It is a Bashar term. And it has not yet been properly clarified by Bashar either (and people don't ask precisely enough). According to Seth there is a common overlap of the different perspectives (angles) in one final point/particle, something our mathematicians know, but don't understand (Seth). According to Bashar you are 'feeding' the reality with your own energy. Others (the energy of others behind your construction of your versions of them in your own universe) may or may not be involved to a certain degree (eg. 10, 40, or 70 per cent). Whatever percentage you allow. You are learning from the interaction with them what you need to learn as they learn from you what is appropriate to them. There is a common consensus on a higher level.

Thus, whatever 'happens to you' in 3d is - first of all - your own creation. Regarding the interface between you and your innumerable parallel selves, Bashar's cosmology is still not clear. Which is remarkable after 36 years of transmissions, given the usually outstanding quality of his answers on nearly everything else. But meanwhile he could at least clarify that your individual 'I' identity, the 'I' you know yourself to be in the NOW, is never going to be destroyed. It will never be diluted, nor annihilated by integration. You are the individualized 'You'-aspect of All-that-is. And will ever be.

By the way, the one final particle (Seth) is also the portal through which Seth had access to our reality and communicated with Jane Roberts (Seth).

(The 'one final particle/point' of Seth is rather seen from a functional perspective. It is the point where the universes of Jane, Robert, the cat Willie and the bug ultimately overlap. There may be an infinite number of 'one final particle's or just one. Not clear. But there is only one single particle creating each and everything, according to Bashar: the 'prime radiant')
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