On the subject of evil

Started by tickle, September 11, 2021, 08:12:14 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

tickle

Hi guys,

I have been going over some of the post concerning the Seth and the concept of evil, and I have some opinions on it.  There are a couple of recent post talking about Seth's view on evil (mainly the  two titled: ´does Seth give a sanitized version of reality´and´does Seth fail to take evil seriously´.) This topic is particularly interesting to me because the possibility of having good without evil is one of (if not the most) attractive concepts in the Seth material. Seth's teachings are the only one (from the religious or philosophical views that I know) that mention the posibility of having the concept of good without a necesary negative counterpart.

The way in which I think this works is that if something we consider evil manifests in our reality is because we still have a belief in it. So theoretically, if we did not have a belief in the existence of evil, we just wouldn't experience anything evil. But literally no believe on evil, not the belief that there shouldn't  be evil, but the genuine knowledge that there is no evil.

It is not that there is an external objective reality containing both good and evil and that we choose to only look at the good things, but rather there is  no objective external realities but an agglomeration of personal realities which may or may not have things in common and if you believe in evil you will not only experience it in your reality but ´tune in´ into the reality of others who also believe in it and therefor also experience it.
There was a short post from usmaak asking about different reality, and voidypaul  gives a great answer that summarizes this concept.
Quote from: voidypaul
Yes you have got it right.
Each person has their own space continuum and their own self perspective in which they create all so called physical objects.
Telepathy as Seth says is the glue that holds the mass reality together. The first person to perceive and create an object then transmits this telepathic message to any other people who may be present and then they create their own object according to the information received.
We all live in entirely different worlds .
Yet the telepathy is so precise that no one really questions or even normally doubts that the object they perceive is not the same one, but it isn't.
It's freakin' amazing. No one ever sees the same object but we all agree that it is.
This is all in the early sessions, 1 I think .
Peace, Paul


So just as we create physical objects we also create physical events and if a person believes in something and manifests it in their reality, but another person does not, that ´something´ exits for the first person but does not exist for the second person (think of children and parents with imaginary friends. We can receive information on evil things that happened in the past or now but that's just that information on the personal experience of others and unless you are personally involved, (in which case is because you believe in it and hence manifested it) then it's just not happening to you, and it is not a part of your reality unless you believe it to be so.

The catch here is that we are indoctrinated with the belief in a common external reality and the fact that it contains evil, that even if we start to change our beliefs, the momentum of that believe will still run strong. So I think that while Seth recognizes that we still have the belief in evil and that it takes part in our reality, he doesn't focus on and it´s consequences too much because it would just reinforce our belief in it.

As far as the consequences go, you don't commit evil acts if you don't believe in evil (or have a distorted concept of good) so doing evil will just lead to you experiencing further evil in your reality. However, it is not that you receive evil experiences as a result of your evil actions in this or other lives, but it is  rather  that the doing of evil acts and the receiving evil acts  are both consequences of a belief in evil.

Sena

September 11, 2021, 11:16:13 AM #1 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 11:19:18 AM by Sena
Quote from: tickle
As far as the consequences go, you don't commit evil acts if you don't believe in evil (or have a distorted concept of good) so doing evil will just lead to you experiencing further evil in your reality. However, it is not that you receive evil experiences as a result of your evil actions in this or other lives, but it is  rather  that the doing of evil acts and the receiving evil acts  are both consequences of a belief in evil.
tickle, would such an argument have provided a defense for Adolf Eichmann at his trial in Jerusalem (or for the perpetrators of 9/11)?:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/adolf-eichmann-final-message-architects-holocaust-evil

QuoteSince his trial in Jerusalem in 1961, Eichmann has become the subject of continued controversy – much of it not so much about the man himself, but often more about the very nature of evil. Yesterday's release of a hand-written letter from Eichmann to the then Israeli president, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, requesting clemency, will only continue the debate. "There is a need to draw a line between the leaders responsible and the people like me forced to serve as mere instruments in the hands of the leaders," Eichmann's letter pleaded. "I was not a responsible leader, and as such do not feel myself guilty."

Tob

September 11, 2021, 12:21:48 PM #2 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 12:24:14 PM by Tob
Quote from: Sena
Quote from: tickle
As far as the consequences go, you don't commit evil acts if you don't believe in evil (or have a distorted concept of good) so doing evil will just lead to you experiencing further evil in your reality. However, it is not that you receive evil experiences as a result of your evil actions in this or other lives, but it is  rather  that the doing of evil acts and the receiving evil acts  are both consequences of a belief in evil.
tickle, would such an argument have provided a defense for Adolf Eichmann at his trial in Jerusalem (or for the perpetrators of 9/11)?:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/adolf-eichmann-final-message-architects-holocaust-evil

QuoteSince his trial in Jerusalem in 1961, Eichmann has become the subject of continued controversy – much of it not so much about the man himself, but often more about the very nature of evil. Yesterday's release of a hand-written letter from Eichmann to the then Israeli president, Yitzhak Ben-Zvi, requesting clemency, will only continue the debate. "There is a need to draw a line between the leaders responsible and the people like me forced to serve as mere instruments in the hands of the leaders," Eichmann's letter pleaded. "I was not a responsible leader, and as such do not feel myself guilty."

As the topic was brought up....

'This particular house exists. Yet you may open the door on any given day to a probable world from your immediate standpoint, and never know the difference. This happens all the time, and I mean at any time. You move through probabilities without knowing it. The transitions are literally invisible to you, though they may appear as trace elements in your dreams. As a diamond has many facets, so does your reality in that regard. Since your birth a probability has occurred that you could have followed, in which your wars did not happen. There is another probability in which the Second World War ended in nuclear destruction, and you did not enter that one either. You chose "this" probable reality in order to ask certain questions about the nature of man - seeing him where he wavered equally between creativity and destruction, knowledge and ignorance; but a point that contained potentials for the most auspicious kinds of development, in your eyes. The same applies to Ruburt.' (Session 797)

'The problems that a country must work out merely represent the problems set by the personality inhabitants for themselves, and the country is merely the framework of such activities. There is a close bond between reincarnational cycles and earthly historical periods that we will discuss later. Sometimes though not always personalities who need a certain experience will be born into a particular country or race. I have been somewhat avoiding this whole issue since delicate balances are interconnected, and the question of the Jews is one that must bother all men.

The same personalities are not always reborn for example in the same race. It is true that your history shows a continuity of Jewish persecutions, that is persecutions of Jews. The fact is that many personalities who have been famous in many eras have also been proud, brilliant and cruel, and have belittled and persecuted those they considered beneath them. These personalities, often talented in many directions and often with past experiences of wealth and power, choose to be born as Jews of their own volition, and this is a karmic compensation, not in any sense punishment but a needed adjustment on the part of the personalities involved.

The horrible misdeeds committed upon the Jews by the Germans were certainly not asked for specifically. However large numbers of those Jews were Huns of a very cruel variety in a past existence. The Germans of that particular generation were not revenging past misdeeds. Revenge has no place in this discussion. In one sense there is no excuse for what occurred. The Jewish people have always displayed great financial abilities, these being natural remnants of knowledge of wealth, as in previous lives many of them had positions of power which they misused.

Your generation as a whole had to learn the importance of thought and responsibility. You had to learn that basically to hate is to kill. The lesson was a practical one. The Germans and the Jews made it plain. Had the hatred not existed in the Germans, it could not have been channeled as it was against the Jews. Free will operated here as always.' (Session 32)


Sena

Quote from: Tob
Had the hatred not existed in the Germans, it could not have been channeled as it was against the Jews. Free will operated here as always.' (Session 32)
Tob, yes, the hatred was clearly a result of false beliefs:
(1) The Jews killed Jesus, as taught by the Christian Church.
(2) Jews practise ritual murder of children.
(3) Jews poison wells etc.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2617031/jewish/10-Anti-Semitic-Myths.htm

tickle

Quote from: Sena
tickle, would such an argument have provided a defense for Adolf Eichmann at his trial in Jerusalem (or for the perpetrators of 9/11)?:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/adolf-eichmann-final-message-architects-holocaust-evil


I think the point is that this event shows up in both of our realities because we still have a believe in evil. I am not saying evil doesnt happen just that it only happens to those who believe in it ( which honestly i think is most people encarnated on earth at any given time) and that if we actually managed to get rid of the belief it would no longer be manifested in our realities.

Deb

September 11, 2021, 06:23:13 PM #5 Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 06:32:40 PM by Deb
My take on Seth saying there's really no evil applies to evil as a force... such as since we believe there is a good force (god, ATI, many other names), we automatically believe there has to be an opposite. And of course, Seth would say it's all an illusion, although for us living in the physical plane it seems real enough, and for a good (learning) reason. People can do really ugly and harmful things to others, SO bad that we consider them and their deeds to be evil. As far as evil deeds only being a consequence of a belief in evil... that's not so simple. While we create our own reality as individuals, we also create it on a mass level and so a person behaving in a way that would seem acceptable to themselves, but is harmful to many others, wouldn't fly on the mass creation level, while also going against one of the lessons we are here to learn.

This is a pretty simple explanation:

"You make your own reality. Man's "evil" exists because of his misunderstanding of his own ideals, because of the gap that seems to exist between the ideal and its actualization. Evil actions, in other words, are the result of ignorance and misunderstanding. Evil is not a force in itself."
—DEaVF2 Chapter 9: Session 921, October 8, 1980

A much longer, more detailed quote is from a Session from May 25, 1971:

Quote from: TECS4 May 25, 1971

https://findingseth.com/q/session:'ESP+Class+Session+May+25+1971'+good+evil/

"As I have tried to explain to you, the rigorous concepts of good and evil are themselves highly distorted, and when you find such a dilemma where goodness is one thing and evil another, and both contrary and separate, then you automatically separate them in your minds and in your feelings and in your fantasies. You do not seem at this point able to realize that what you call evil works for what you call good, or that both are a part of energy, and that you are using energy to form your reality, both now and after this life. This is because you deal with effects physically, as you see them. And until you divest yourself of such psychological behavior, it will always seem to you that good and evil are opposites, and you will treat them as such in your feelings and in your concepts and in your myths.

"No! There are no forces outside of yourselves that in your terms cause you to do evil. Unfortunately, what you think of as good and evil reside within yourselves, and you cannot blame an evil force for the destruction that runs rampant across the earth. Again, in your terms, these are your problems, and no god or devil put them upon you, and there is no one to blame but yourselves. On the other hand, for the seasons and the idiot flower (looks at Joel H.), you have yourselves to thank. You are learning how to use the creative energy of which you are a part, and you are indeed quite isolated, so you cannot do much harm, in your terms. And so that the evil that you think you do is an illusion. And so that for the millions that you think you slay, you slay not one. And so that despite you and your concepts of value, creativity always emerges triumphant, and those that are killed in one war come back to fight against war the next time, and hopefully, you teach yourselves some lessons. And if you destroy your planet, you will have others to work with, and those that were destroyed are not destroyed. You are in a training system. The mistakes in the long run, and in your terms, will not count, but they are very real to you at this time.

"However, there is something that you should know. Because you are physically oriented, you early got it into your heads that goodness must have a place in the physical universe and evil must have a place within it. And so you set up for yourselves the division of Heaven and Hell. In one story or another, it has existed far back into the annals of your time. Now give us a moment."

—TECS4 ESP Class Session, May 25, 1971

https://findingseth.com/q/good+evil/

I always get caught up in words, definitions, language limitations. While I would call Hitler and Eichmann et al evil people, and did things I consider evil, my use of the word evil means abhorrent behavior and crimes against humanity, rather than they were possessed by a force from the dark side. I've said this many times, but I consider people that harm others for any reason other than defense of self or others as mentally defective, such as being a psycho or sociopath. Seth said self defense was no excuse.  ???

Seth also talked about idealists and fanatics and hate being a distorted form of love (see NoPR Session 673), which made me, for the first time in my life, consider there is actually a different perspective for what I consider the evils that occur in our reality. It doesn't make the horrors any less horrific for me, but it was a surprise to consider them from the (distorted) angle of the perpetrators. Seth would say "misguided." That's an understatement to me, but then again his perspective was light years away from my current one. To me perspective, like timing and beliefs, are everything.

Quote from: tickle
Quote from: Sena
tickle, would such an argument have provided a defense for Adolf Eichmann at his trial in Jerusalem (or for the perpetrators of 9/11)?:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/28/adolf-eichmann-final-message-architects-holocaust-evil

I think the point is that this event shows up in both of our realities because we still have a believe in evil. I am not saying evil doesnt happen just that it only happens to those who believe in it ( which honestly i think is most people encarnated on earth at any given time) and that if we actually managed to get rid of the belief it would no longer be manifested in our realities.

Wow, that pretty deep, I'll have to sort that out for a bit. We are all here for the ride, and we do have mass beliefs. I think if we on a mass level were able to get rid of the belief of evil, evil deeds and harm to others, we may just all graduate ourselves out of physical reality. Or be doomed to return for a multitude of incarnations until we get our heads on straight. But... I still need to think on that.

Like Like x 1 View List

tickle

Quote from: Tob
The horrible misdeeds committed upon the Jews by the Germans were certainly not asked for specifically. However large numbers of those Jews were Huns of a very cruel variety in a past existence.

This reminds me of a story on the buddhist sutras that talk about how the Gautama family took all the fish from a lake and killed all the ones they didn´t eat. Then those fish reincarnated in a savage tribe that later atacked and killed the gautama family exept Sidharta because he didnt´t of the fish. I think Seth also mentions that the atacked, the killed, the victim are in another probable reality the atacker, the killer, the assailant.

tickle

Quote from: Deb
I think if we on a mass level were able to get rid of the belief of evil, evil deeds and harm to others, we may just all graduate ourselves out of physical reality.

Yeah I think this is the experiment that seth refers to when he says

https://findingseth.com/q/session:546+good+without+evil/

"Quite simply, a belief in the good without a belief in the evil, may seem highly unrealistic to you. This belief, however, is the best kind of insurance that you can have, both during physical life and afterward."
...
"Believing in evils, you will of course perceive them. Your world has not tried the experiment as yet which would release you."
...
"The experiment that would transform your world would operate upon the basic idea that you create your own reality according to the nature of your beliefs, and that all existence was blessed, and that evil did not exist in it. If these ideas were followed individually and collectively, then the evidence of your physical senses would find no contradiction. They would perceive the world and existence as good."
—SS Chapter 11: Session 546, August 19, 1970

And that is a picture that I find highly atractive, the posibility of existance that is entirely blessed or entirely good without a negative counterpart. I have to admit that I dont know how it would work since I dont know how we could tell that something was good if there wasnt anything evil to compare it to, but it is a very atractive idea.
Like Like x 1 View List

Tob

September 11, 2021, 11:14:29 PM #8 Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 08:06:48 AM by Tob
Quote from: tickle
Quote from: Tob
The horrible misdeeds committed upon the Jews by the Germans were certainly not asked for specifically. However large numbers of those Jews were Huns of a very cruel variety in a past existence.

This reminds me of a story on the buddhist sutras that talk about how the Gautama family took all the fish from a lake and killed all the ones they didn´t eat. Then those fish reincarnated in a savage tribe that later atacked and killed the gautama family exept Sidharta because he didnt´t of the fish. I think Seth also mentions that the atacked, the killed, the victim are in another probable reality the atacker, the killer, the assailant.

According to Bashar one should acknowledge negativity as equally valid, as all choices that can be made are part of 'All-that-is', but you (are free to) decide not to choose it. According to him 'All-that-is' consists of nearly 50 percent negativity, represented by the black side of the Yin-Yang symbol. 50 per cent are positive, and there is a balance 'point' in between from which you can choose and exercise your free will (the line between black and white in the symbol). And there are the black and white dots which indicate that there is always an option to choose the opposite. The choice is yours.

'Negativity' in his vernacular means 'limiting', not so much 'evil'. But you can use limitations which are undoubtedly imposed on us for positive reasons as well. The 'abundance' issue is key in his cosmology. Actually, the idea that there is a lack of abundance, that people have to suffer and even starve is deeply rooted in our history and certainly the background of most of the conflicts and wars. Thus, you cannot get 'rid of the evil' as negativity is an equally valid part of 'All-that-is', but you can decide not to choose it, as you have free will. It will then more and more vanish from your direct environment.

Jane and Robert could have 'decided' in favour of their extinction (nuclear ending of WWII), a definitely better version of Earth, i.e: one without wars, one with a conventional ending of the war but the death of Robert Butts as a pilot, one where he died as a child, one where Jane ended up in a monastery, etc. (Seth). Jane and Robert could have also 'decided' to match the frequency of the two personality fragments at New York Beach. Hadn't they taken the decision to go dancing at that very moment they could have ended up as highly frustrated and negatively oriented persons in their life. (Seth)

In a way, if a cat is playing with a wounded mouse you could call it 'evil'. I assume it would nevertheless not be the proper term to describe the character of the cat's innate behaviour appropriately. From our point of view, torturing the victim for fun purposes is clearly evil. According to Bashar our animals are predators 'as we are'. In the future we may be living on a version of Earth where the relationship among animals is symbiotic. Then they don't prey anymore on each other. Which brings us back to food, nourishment, security and (perceived lack of) abundance, the main factors behind military conflicts.

Thus, you don't 'fight' evil. You accept negativity as an equally valid reality in existence and part of 'All-that-is', and then you ignore it as one of your options and choose something else which is constructive, integrating, and not separating. I think this is basically the message of Seth as well.

tickle

Quote from: Tob
'Negativity' in his vernacular means 'limiting', not so much 'evil'. But you can use limitations which are undoubtedly imposed on us for positive reasons as well.

This definition fits very well with Seth's insistence to work on our limiting beliefs and to set ourselves free from limitation, and those limiting beliefs are responsible for the manifestations that we consider undesirable. Also, by this definition the ´evil´acts we see committed around us are not the evidence for an objective  external force that makes people do harmful actions but rather they are evidence of the self limiting beliefs we still hold as a species and are as such less worthy of punishment as they are of analysis and understanding that could lead to action that helps overcome said limiting beliefs.

Yes, I like this definition a lot, thanks for bringing it up.

Bora137

September 12, 2021, 03:36:22 PM #10 Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 06:09:31 PM by Bora137
Quote
Quote from: Tob
'Negativity' in his vernacular means 'limiting', not so much 'evil'. But you can use limitations which are undoubtedly imposed on us for positive reasons as well.

This definition fits very well with Seth's insistence to work on our limiting beliefs and to set ourselves free from limitation, and those limiting beliefs are responsible for the manifestations that we consider undesirable.

I would say the ultimate limiting belief is that we exist and then cease to exist. This belief shapes much of our current experience (unless we transcend it), 'you only live once', 'you'll regret the things you haven't done more than those you have done' and so on. This is a very fear inducing belief. Why not steal, con, cheat and walk over others to get what you want - you will not find yourself in contradiction of this monolithic belief if you do. But most will hear their inner voice suggesting to them they are on the wrong path. There is however very little in current conveniental beliefs to support the inner voice. It really is an interesting battle right now. Seth and other teachers come at these dark times to attempt to redress the balance I think.

Like Like x 2 View List

Sena

Quote from: Bora137
It really is an interesting battle right now. Seth and other teachers come at these dark times to attempt to redress the balance I think.
Bora, it is significant that you use the word "battle". A battle between good and evil? In the Law of One, Ra talked about people who are "negatively polarized", who practise 95% Service to Self (STS). According to Ra, these people will eventually reincarnate in a separate planet where ALL the inhabitants are negatively polarized.
Like Like x 1 View List

Bora137

Quote from: Sena
Bora, it is significant that you use the word "battle". A battle between good and evil?
No a battle of truth versus false beliefs I mean. We are in the illusion of earth but as Seth says we are also within the trance of our beliefs - beliefs such as you live then you die. So Seth and others are sent to try and help clarify things a bit.

I think the Ra view is valid, but again even in that view there is no evil, just extreme self love in the case of the service to self polarity. Also it is a finite path, it cannot progress to the Godhead because the STS individuals will not combine consciousnesses so their spiritual development cannot move forward, so it's a dead end, a false belief, an illusion they eventually see through and polarise positive.


Like Like x 1 View List

Sena

Quote from: Bora137
Also it is a finite path, it cannot progress to the Godhead because the STS individuals will not combine consciousnesses so their spiritual development cannot move forward, so it's a dead end, a false belief, an illusion they eventually see through and polarise positive.
Yes. I think Ra said that Hitler is now going through some learning experiences.