A Rebuttal

Started by s1nbad, April 04, 2022, 01:04:17 PM

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s1nbad

I just came across something in Seth Speaks that doesn't sit with me.

"Knowing your reincarnational background, but not knowing the true nature of your present self, is useless. You cannot justify or rationalize present circumstances by saying, "This is because of something I did in a past life," for within yourself now is the ability to change negative influences. You may have brought negative influences into your life for a given reason, but the reason always has to do with understanding, and understanding removes those influences. You cannot say, "The poor are poor simply because they chose poverty, and therefore there is no need for me to help them." This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next experience."
—SS Part Two: Chapter 12: Session 551, September 30, 1970

Do the poor not choose poverty? I cannot create someone else's reality for them, I can only help them help themselves. Secondly, I do not understand how not feeling the need to help poor people can 'easily draw' poverty into a next experience. My guess is that Seth is saying that my entity would feel the need to relate to the experience of being impoverished in order to understand how not-of-a-choice it can seem to be. I've already learned that lesson however through other means.


This only makes some sense in the context of helping people help themselves, by showing them that they create their realities via their beliefs -- but even then I cannot make someone understand that.. and I do not feel the need to expend the effort to do so if they are not receptive.
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inavalan

I agree with everything in the quote you posted.

  • "Knowing your reincarnational background, but not knowing the true nature of your present self, is useless. You cannot justify or rationalize present circumstances by saying, "This is because of something I did in a past life," for within yourself now is the ability to change negative influences. You may have brought negative influences into your life for a given reason, but the reason always has to do with understanding, and understanding removes those influences. You cannot say, "The poor are poor simply because they chose poverty, and therefore there is no need for me to help them." This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next experience."
    —SS Part Two: Chapter 12: Session 551, September 30, 1970

When trying to interpret Seth, it matters what is your model of reality, wider and physical, what is your model of the personality, and its relation to other gestalts of consciousness, what is your understanding of creating reality, who and how does it, and so on ...

I agree with you that you can't create another's reality. But, how do you create your physical reality? What is that "you", and how does it create your physical-reality?

Without getting into details of my understanding of other concepts, the reality that your outer-self observes (through its physical-senses) is created by your subconscious. Your outer-self's focus, thoughts, emotions, beliefs, expectations shape that reality.

So, in the example discussed in this quote, if your attitude is of not paying attention to the importance of money, and to the need to alleviate the lack of money (even if it is in relation to another), it is likely to give your subconscious the input that for you money isn't important, and might shape your physical-reality, meaning creating such situations in which you won't have money.

Regarding the "reincarnational background", it is generally understood as being imposed on you, which Seth says isn't so. He says that past incarnations might create a psychological predisposition for some situations to be experienced, but to actually experience them depends on your focus, thoughts, emotions, beliefs, expectations, now in this current life, because this is actually what shapes your current physical-reality. If you believe that your predicament in this life is caused (justified) by something you did in a previous life, this will just add to your current predicament, and will make it more difficult to overcome it, than if you constientize that your reality is shaped only by your current focus, thoughts, emotions, beliefs, expectations.

I hope I expressed it coherently enough.

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Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

s1nbad

Quote from: inavalan on April 04, 2022, 03:20:57 PMRegarding the "reincarnational background", it is generally understood as being imposed on you, which Seth says isn't so. He says that past incarnations might create a psychological predisposition for some situations to be experienced, but to actually experience them depends on your focus, thoughts, emotions, beliefs, expectations, now in this current life, because this is actually what shapes your current physical-reality. If you believe that your predicament in this life is caused (justified) by something you did in a previous life, this will just add to your current predicament, and will make it more difficult to overcome it, than if you constientize that your reality is shaped only by your current focus, thoughts, emotions, beliefs, expectations.

I agree with you here. To clarify, my problem is with the part in bold, I included the entire paragraph so it didn't look like I just pasted something out of context. You've cleared this up for me: such an attitude might create the psychological predisposition for that situation in another experience. I also notice that Seth uses the word CHOSE, past tense. The attitude of 'this person chose before incarnating to be poor, therefore there is no need for me to help them' being problematic makes more sense.
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inavalan

#3
I don't think that any "oversoul" chooses to suffer in the next incarnation, but that when it decides when in the physical-time, where in the 3d-physical-space, and in what probability, to enter the physical-reality hyperspace, it has an idea of the challenges involved, and of what it can accomplish; surely, it better be realistic about its capabilities (a first grader who decides to enroll in a calculus class will do very poorly no matter what, excepting being a genius).

Suffering results from making poor choices at outer-self level.

So, no oversoul chooses to be poor (to suffer for being poor), but function of how it faces the challenges, if it makes poor choices, it might experience poverty and suffering.

Suffering isn't required for evolving toward value fulfilment, but it may happen if your performance is poor.
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Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

Deb

I also see it as a matter of character development and our learning while "here"... are we good to others, are we compassionate, are we willing to help others if they ask for it? It's kind of like when Seth said we can't really kill one another, there is no death per se, but thinking we can kill and the desire to do it is a problem. When we do harm to others we harm ourselves. When we help others, we also help ourselves. We are here to learn. 
 
Quote from: s1nbad on April 04, 2022, 01:04:17 PMDo the poor not choose poverty? I cannot create someone else's reality for them, I can only help them help themselves.

"When you learn to create a positive reality for yourself then you will be able to help someone else create one."
—ECS2 ESP Class Session, July 21, 1970

I can only hope. :)
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Bora137

Take a guy who has masses of money but has never felt inclined to help anyone less fortunate. However across the years he senses an increasing void of utter poverty within himself, a deep sense pointlessness, but still he cannot relate to the plight of the poor. This soul is stuck. Basically it needs to suffer in order to grow, it needs to experience poverty.

So the suffering this soul embarks on in an incarnation of poverty is not an easy choice but it is necessary for them to progress.

When I see people in poverty or suffering (apart from the obvious that could be me) I think wow you got some guts or you chose the tough road man, power to you and I might give them some money if that's what they are asking for. At the same time that impoverished person is serving me, is giving me an opportunity for advancement and growth. This is how perfectly the universe works.

Pain is there so we can find out how to overcome it, in doing so we expand our consciousness. Just because some have chosen pain we can't really say they 'chose' this, we can't really say they created their own reality. They had little choice if they wanted to progress and help keep the universe going. So the real life and death behind the illusionary one of the earth incarnation is that of the universe itself. That's how much depends on this.

Of course you can also have a soul in utter poverty who is ecstatic with enlightenment.






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Mark M

I just take it for granted that there are seeming contradictions like this.

Like the seeming contradiction that one can violate another even tho the violated has created that reality for h/herself.

inavalan

Quote from: Mark M on April 13, 2022, 07:06:21 PMI just take it for granted that there are seeming contradictions like this.

Like the seeming contradiction that one can violate another even tho the violated has created that reality for h/herself.

Maybe there is no contradiction there. One (X) violates another (Y) in X's reality, not in Y's reality. So, that matters only fot that X. As well, Y can create a violation of themselves in their own reality, by a willing or by an unaware X. So, that matters only for Y.
Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

Mark M

inavalan wrote:

"One (X) violates another (Y) in X's reality, not in Y's reality."

Yeah, I don't know.

"There are laws of a sort that govern these matters. But you can mark my words: In one way or another, all debts are paid. These so-called debts are actually challenges to the particular personalities involved. The word debt implies guilt, and such a connotation is not my intention.

"The sense of original sin, however, which unfortunately has been made so much of, is undoubtedly in part an inner recognition of debts of this sort, hanging over the personality at birth. But again there is no guilt in the terms usually applied to that word."

—Seth, TES1, Session 21 February 3, 1964

inavalan

Quote from: Mark M on April 14, 2022, 08:43:00 PMinavalan wrote:

"One (X) violates another (Y) in X's reality, not in Y's reality."

Yeah, I don't know.

"There are laws of a sort that govern these matters. But you can mark my words: In one way or another, all debts are paid. These so-called debts are actually challenges to the particular personalities involved. The word debt implies guilt, and such a connotation is not my intention.

"The sense of original sin, however, which unfortunately has been made so much of, is undoubtedly in part an inner recognition of debts of this sort, hanging over the personality at birth. But again there is no guilt in the terms usually applied to that word."

—Seth, TES1, Session 21 February 3, 1964

You replied like my late mother when she disagreed with me but didn't have arguments :)
Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

Mark M

inavalan wrote:

"You replied like my late mother when she disagreed with me but didn't have arguments"

She'd quote Seth?
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inavalan

Quote from: Mark M on April 14, 2022, 09:06:09 PMinavalan wrote:

"You replied like my late mother when she disagreed with me but didn't have arguments"

She'd quote Seth?
Quote from: Mark MYeah, I don't know.
Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

Mark M

"...but didn't have arguments..."

inavalan

Although I don't always write it explicitly, it should be inferred that everything I post is "my belief", "my opinion" on that subject, at that moment.

Sena

#14
Quote from: s1nbad on April 04, 2022, 01:04:17 PMYou cannot say, "The poor are poor simply because they chose poverty, and therefore there is no need for me to help them." This attitude can easily draw poverty to you in the next experience."
—SS Part Two: Chapter 12: Session 551, September 30, 1970

Do the poor not choose poverty? I cannot create someone else's reality for them, I can only help them help themselves.

s1nbad, Seth is NOT saying that the poor have not chosen poverty. Seth is criticizing the selfish  attitide of people who think, "So-and-so has chosen to be poor, so I don't need to help that person even if I have the means to help them."

QuoteThis only makes some sense in the context of helping people help themselves, by showing them that they create their realities via their beliefs -- but even then I cannot make someone understand that.. and I do not feel the need to expend the effort to do so if they are not receptive.

In some instances we can help poor people by simply giving them money. I don't think Seth advised "preaching" to a poor person to enable them to understand why they are poor.
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Doro

Quote from: inavalan on April 04, 2022, 05:21:30 PMI don't think that any "oversoul" chooses to suffer in the next incarnation, but that when it decides when in the physical-time, where in the 3d-physical-space, and in what probability, to enter the physical-reality hyperspace, it has an idea of the challenges involved, and of what it can accomplish; surely, it better be realistic about its capabilities (a first grader who decides to enroll in a calculus class will do very poorly no matter what, excepting being a genius).

Suffering results from making poor choices at outer-self level.

So, no oversoul chooses to be poor (to suffer for being poor), but function of how it faces the challenges, if it makes poor choices, it might experience poverty and suffering.

Suffering isn't required for evolving toward value fulfilment, but it may happen if your performance is poor.

Quote from: Mark M on April 13, 2022, 07:06:21 PMI just take it for granted that there are seeming contradictions like this.

Like the seeming contradiction that one can violate another even tho the violated has created that reality for h/herself.

So if I get it right :
If I make poor choices there will be repercussions in my next (or parallel) reincarnation.
That would imply that all the children who are/were abused made poor choices before or/and they ofc created this him/herself.
And the ones who did it? Are they who just now are making the poor choices?
I mean speaking about theoretical poverty is one thing. There are terrible people doing terrible things to other people, especially children. Every day. It's pretty hard to discuss this in such a manner. But if this is the answer I have to accept it.
I just am not able to tell my daughters that they have chosen to be abused from their own father in early childhood and that they are doing great until now and one day they will discover why they did that bc hopefully one day everything will make sense, you just made some really bad choices...
Well it doesn't for me. I'm still working on it. But hey, children! And what about all the 3rd world issues. Well, maybe I have just difficulties understanding why one would choose to be abused as a little child.or as an adult likewise.
 "Suffering isn't required for evolving toward value fulfilment, but it may happen..."
So we just made some bad choices. Hard to swallow

strangerthings

@Doro

Repercussions? No.

None of your other lives hold any power over you. You don't owe a debt to other lives. And if you do make a "poor choice", you can learn from that and make new ones. When you make these new choices it ripples through all of your life. And I wouldn't necessarily call it a poor choice I myself would say you got some feedback. Do we make mistakes? We make choices according to the resources that we have at any given moment. If you did not know certain things and you made a choice based on all of that why would it be a poor choice?

I am walking in familiar territory here when you talk about your children. I have found that the best way through it is to understand that it is over. When you focus on these things you relive it every time you think about it. And every time you think about it and this is going to sound very harsh but it is very true every time you think about it you redo the situation. If you see a child that has been abused and you think of that child as being abused every day you think about this more than just once or twice... That child gets abused every time you think about that child being abused.

It's over and that is so very important to connect.

And no of course not that is not what you tell your children that they chose this that would do way more harm. Do you love them? Of course you do and that will be an emphasis that they are loved that they are safe and that it's over.

There is a lot more than I could say about this but it is a very fine line of territory and it's a very tricky conversation to have.

If they have an outlet if it is something that stresses them out I encourage for your children to have an outlet. For me it was sports and dancing growing up. And looking back I'm very thankful that I had those because it redirected my attention.

Bringing more love and joy into their life will help tremendously.

You have a great opportunity here for bonding, for being creative in how to direct their attention away from it because it is over, and you have a great opportunity here for some great healing.

Another thing that really helped me and it wasn't until I was older much older that I had this opportunity but I cannot stress how important it was for me to have this and how much it helped.... find some wonderful men in the world that you could use as a role model for them to associate with instead of their father.

For example: I had a hard time finding a man that I could use as an example and then I thought of Tom Bosley from happy days. The happy days father so whenever I thought about my father I would instantly think of Tom Bosley it would counter any stress that I might perchance focus on when I thought of my father. It helped me to know that there were other men in the world that were wonderful besides my father. And of course this list has grown by leaps and bounds since then because once I saw Tom Bosley I could then see other men that were just as wonderful.

I think it's very important to have that association.

And this is from personal experiences and discussions with others and really really looking into how I can best move forward gently with love.

I used to think that there was something wrong with me that I was a loser that I was a failure etc. etc. etc. I used to think I was unloved by my father and that he never wanted me and I now know that isn't so. I have learned that that is not the case. I also learned more about his life and how he grew up and the resources that he had.

I did an exercise around my father and his family that I went back in time and saw his parents family have all the joy and love and safety in their lives that they passed on to my father's parents and my father's parents raised my father in a more joyous and kind world and he now has the resources to raise his children with joy and respect and safety and love.

So when I said that this is a tricky conversation to have I hope you have a little bit of more information as to why I said that. There's a lot more going on here than what is meeting the eye.

Blessings, Friend
Much love
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LarryH

 :) What happened to the Love and Like, etc. icons? I guess for now, I just have to do a  :) for that last post.
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Bora137

I've got those icons Larry
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Doro

#19
Quote from: strangerthings on April 17, 2022, 11:43:06 AM@Doro

Repercussions? No.

None of your other lives hold any power over you. You don't owe a debt to other lives. And if you do make a "poor choice", you can learn from that and make new ones. When you make these new choices it ripples through all of your life. And I wouldn't necessarily call it a poor choice I myself would say you got some feedback. Do we make mistakes? We make choices according to the resources that we have at any given moment. If you did not know certain things and you made a choice based on all of that why would it be a poor choice?

 _____Well I thought if this is happening
 to me / us, I should have to
 learn/transform something I didn't
 get by now. 🤔

I am walking in familiar territory here when you talk about your children. I have found that the best way through it is to understand that it is over. When you focus on these things you relive it every time you think about it. And every time you think about it and this is going to sound very harsh but it is very true every time you think about it you redo the situation. If you see a child that has been abused and you think of that child as being abused every day you think about this more than just once or twice... That child gets abused every time you think about that child being abused.

 _______This is true. I was in exactly that
 situation. And my daughters told me
 I should go to therapy because they
 knew I was thinking about it and 
 they were always reminded. And this
 I did. But it took me a long time
 to look at them without thinking
 about what happened. Because I felt
 guilty too.


It's over and that is so very important to connect.

 __________Yes absolutely. Just today my
 daughter said to me hey we
 survived. Let's do something we
 love and what makes us happy (this
 was after a difficult episode of
 depressing thoughts and feelings).
 We're working on it with good
 results 😊

And no of course not that is not what you tell your children that they chose this that would do way more harm. Do you love them? Of course you do and that will be an emphasis that they are loved that they are safe and that it's over.

 _________Yes I know. I would never tell them
 that. But look, how can one say
 that one choose to be in such a
  situation? This question is
 haunting me... This is why I got so
 caught up in this

There is a lot more than I could say about this but it is a very fine line of territory and it's a very tricky conversation to have.

If they have an outlet if it is something that stresses them out I encourage for your children to have an outlet. For me it was sports and dancing growing up. And looking back I'm very thankful that I had those because it redirected my attention.

 ___________ They are doing what they can bc
 they are aware of the effects, like
 running, rollerskater and yoga.
 They do love yoga. There are times
 when it does not work but they try
 to do a routine bc it makes them
 feel better.

Bringing more love and joy into their life will help tremendously.

 ______Yes!

You have a great opportunity here for bonding, for being creative in how to direct their attention away from it because it is over, and you have a great opportunity here for some great healing.

 _________That is true. It took us a few
 years to connect very strongly. And
 we indeed feel a great love between
 us.

Another thing that really helped me and it wasn't until I was older much older that I had this opportunity but I cannot stress how important it was for me to have this and how much it helped.... find some wonderful men in the world that you could use as a role model for them to associate with instead of their father.

For example: I had a hard time finding a man that I could use as an example and then I thought of Tom Bosley from happy days. The happy days father so whenever I thought about my father I would instantly think of Tom Bosley it would counter any stress that I might perchance focus on when I thought of my father. It helped me to know that there were other men in the world that were wonderful besides my father. And of course this list has grown by leaps and bounds since then because once I saw Tom Bosley I could then see other men that were just as wonderful.

I think it's very important to have that association.

 ___________This happened to us too. I didn't
 get how important it is until you
 mentioned it now. I did meet
 another man and I live with him
 now. He is a very gentel man. And
 after knowing him for 2 years my
 daughters told me that now they can
 start to believe that there are men
 who are very kind and caring. They
 were able to build a relationship
 to him and they look at him like a
 step-dad. This is really good.


And this is from personal experiences and discussions with others and really really looking into how I can best move forward gently with love.

I used to think that there was something wrong with me that I was a loser that I was a failure etc. etc. etc. I used to think I was unloved by my father and that he never wanted me and I now know that isn't so. I have learned that that is not the case. I also learned more about his life and how he grew up and the resources that he had.

I did an exercise around my father and his family that I went back in time and saw his parents family have all the joy and love and safety in their lives that they passed on to my father's parents and my father's parents raised my father in a more joyous and kind world and he now has the resources to raise his children with joy and respect and safety and love.

 ___________I guess this is a few steps too far
 away from us. At the moment we're
 still waiting for the trial to take
 place. We need him to go to jail
 right now. This too will make us
 feel save. I know that this too
 will heal some time from now. When
 this takes place I don't know
 though.

So when I said that this is a tricky conversation to have I hope you have a little bit of more information as to why I said that. There's a lot more going on here than what is meeting the eye.

Blessings, Friend
Much love


Thank you very much!

Sena

#20
Quote from: Doro on April 17, 2022, 09:22:12 AMIf I make poor choices there will be repercussions in my next (or parallel) reincarnation.

Doro, our Inner Self is always there guiding us to make good choices. Learning to listen to one's Inner Self is the key. There is no need to worry about repercussions in another reincarnation. Seth disagreed with the Buddhist view of karma.

"The basic idea of karma is not punishment. Karma presents the opportunity for development; to make use of opportunities that were not taken advantage of, to fill in gaps of ignorance, to enlarge understanding through experience, to do what should be done."
—TES8 Session 388 December 20, 1967
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Doro

Quote from: Sena on April 18, 2022, 03:06:27 AM
Quote from: Doro on April 17, 2022, 09:22:12 AMIf I make poor choices there will be repercussions in my next (or parallel) reincarnation.

Doro, our Inner Self is always there guiding us to make good choices. Learning to listen to one's Inner Self is the key. There is no need to worry about repercussions in another reincarnation. Seth disagreed with the Buddhist view of karma.

"The basic idea of karma is not punishment. Karma presents the opportunity for development; to make use of opportunities that were not taken advantage of, to fill in gaps of ignorance, to enlarge understanding through experience, to do what should be done."
—TES8 Session 388 December 20, 1967

Thank you Sena for - again - making me aware of my inner self guiding me. I need to listen!! Also I find it very important what you wrote that I have to opportunity to FILL IN GAPS OF IGNORANCE [...].
This is a very important message for me and I feel more ok right now. Thank you!!!!
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