Author Topic: The return of Christ personality  (Read 23546 times)

Offline Joelr

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Interesting connection,

Seth said:

"Christ, the historical Christ, was not crucified. - You will have to give me time here. (Pause.)

He had no intention of dying in that manner; but others felt that to fulfill the prophecies in all ways, a crucifixion was a necessity. Christ did not take part in it (Pause.) There was a conspiracy in which Judas: played a role an attempt to make a martyr out of Christ.  The man chosen was drugged-hence the necessity of helping him carry the cross (see Luke:23) and he was told that he was the Christ. He believed that he was. He was one of deluded, but he also himself believed that he, not the historical Christ, was to fulfill the prophecies. "


I recently found this in one of the Nag Hamaddi scrolls:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Treatise_of_the_Great_Seth

Second Treatise of the Great Seth is an apocryphal Gnostic writing discovered in the Codex VII of the Nag Hammadi codices and dates to around the third century. The author is unknown, and the Seth referenced in the title appears nowhere in the text. Instead Seth is thought to reference the third son of Adam and Eve to whom gnosis was first revealed, according to some gnostics. The author appears to belong to a group of gnostics who maintain that Jesus Christ was not crucified on the cross. Instead the text says that Simon of Cyrene was mistaken for Jesus and crucified in his place. Jesus is described as standing by and "laughing at their ignorance."

Those who believe Jesus to have died on the cross are said to believe in "a doctrine of a dead man." All those without gnosis - including those who had what would become orthodox beliefs, as well as the figures of Adam, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Solomon, the prophets, and Moses - are all referred to as a "laughingstock." The text shows the derision which the gnostics felt towards those who did not realize their supposed "truth"; that the biblical text was false (in at least certain important respects) and that the God of the Jews was not the true God. Only the gnostics have access to the "truth".

The Treatise of the Great Seth is written from the first-person perspective of "Jesus".

Some Gnostics believed Jesus was not a man but a docetistic spirit, and therefore could not die. From the translation by Roger A. Bullard and Joseph A. Gibbons:" (end quote)


One of the Nag Hamaddi was given to Jung in 1961 but that was codex 1. I know Jane was into Jung. This text was from codex VII which according to Wiki was not translated until 1977, after Jane wrote that Seth stuff (I think?) So I don't think Jane would have seen this codex.

Obviously Seth does not claim to be related to Gnostic text (as far as I know?) but it is an interesting coincidence as they both are saying the same thing about the crufixion being someone other than Jesus. I admit it's just one point so it could just be a coincidence and "Seth" isn't that uncommon of a name (Adam and Eve's 3rd son was Seth) but still.....


Wait, did I just find a Seth connection that no one has ever known before? Or am I getting ahead of myself?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 05:21:55 PM by Joelr »

Offline Sena

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Joel, I think Joseph Atwill is more plausible than the Great Seth story:

"American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October 2013 to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. ....

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Sena
Joel, I think Joseph Atwill is more plausible than the Great Seth story:

"American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October 2013 to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. ....

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm


Ugg Atwill, beware of crank theories. Read Richard Carriers review post before taking Atwill serious.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4664

"Joseph Atwill is one of those crank mythers I often get conflated with. Mythicists like him make the job of serious scholars like me so much harder, because people see, hear, or read them and think their nonsense is what mythicism is. They make mythicism look ridiculous. So I have to waste time (oh by the gods, so much time) explaining how I am not arguing anything like their theories or using anything like their terrible methods, and unlike them I actually know what I am talking about, and have an actual Ph.D. in a relevant subject from a real university......"


Offline Sena

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Quote from: Joelr
Quote from: Sena
Joel, I think Joseph Atwill is more plausible than the Great Seth story:

"American Biblical scholar Joseph Atwill will be appearing before the British public for the first time in London on the 19th of October 2013 to present a controversial new discovery: ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ. ....

Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm


Ugg Atwill, beware of crank theories. Read Richard Carriers review post before taking Atwill serious.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/4664

"Joseph Atwill is one of those crank mythers I often get conflated with. Mythicists like him make the job of serious scholars like me so much harder, because people see, hear, or read them and think their nonsense is what mythicism is. They make mythicism look ridiculous. So I have to waste time (oh by the gods, so much time) explaining how I am not arguing anything like their theories or using anything like their terrible methods, and unlike them I actually know what I am talking about, and have an actual Ph.D. in a relevant subject from a real university......"



"Jesus Did Not Exist: A Debate Among Atheists, was published November 12, 2015, with foreword and afterword by Richard Carrier."
"Per any evidence outside of the New Testament, for Jesus’s existence, Carrier writes;

There is no independent evidence of Jesus’s existence outside the New Testament. All external evidence for his existence, even if it were fully authentic (though much of it isn’t), cannot be shown to be independent of the Gospels, or Christian informants relying on the Gospels. None of it can be shown to independently corroborate the Gospels as to the historicity of Jesus. Not one single item of evidence. Regardless of why no independent evidence survives (it does not matter the reason), no such evidence survives."

"Carrier asserts that originally "Jesus was the name of a celestial being, subordinate to God, with whom some people hallucinated conversations"[87] and "The Gospel began as a mythic allegory about the celestial Jesus, set on earth, as most myths then were"[87] (see Jesus in comparative mythology). Stories were created that placed Jesus on Earth, in context with historical figures and places. Eventually people began to believe that these allegorical stories were real.[87][89]

A celestial being, subordinate to God:
Carrier notes, "Jesus was originally a god just like any other god (properly speaking, a demigod in pagan terms; an archangel in Jewish terms; in either sense, a deity), who was later historicized."[4] (I would be inclined to agree with this)
Hallucinated conversations:
Carrier gives as example Joseph Smith—the founder of Mormonism—who declared that he had conversations with the Angel Moroni."

"Reviewing On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt, Christina Petterson of the University of Newcastle, Australia, in the academic journal Relegere, says Carrier's methodology is "tenuous", that she was "shocked" by the way he uses mathematics,and that Carrier uses statistics in a way that seems designed "to intentionally confuse and obfuscate". Petterson says that statements in the book "reveal Carrier's ignorance of the field of New Testament studies and early Christianity"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier#Jesus_ahistoricity_theory

Slanging matches appear to be the rule in Jesus studies.

Joel, you and Carrier may well be right about Atwill. I am personally not inclined to take Jesus seriously.
The gods of Candomblé are probably as credible as Jesus.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 06:06:59 AM by Sena »

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Sena

"Reviewing On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt, Christina Petterson of the University of Newcastle, Australia, in the academic journal Relegere, says Carrier's methodology is "tenuous", that she was "shocked" by the way he uses mathematics,and that Carrier uses statistics in a way that seems designed "to intentionally confuse and obfuscate". Petterson says that statements in the book "reveal Carrier's ignorance of the field of New Testament studies and early Christianity"."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Carrier#Jesus_ahistoricity_theory

Slanging matches appear to be the rule in Jesus studies.

Joel, you and Carrier may well be right about Atwill. I am personally not inclined to take Jesus seriously.
The gods of Candomblé are probably as credible as Jesus.



Carrier wrote a piece about that review where he pointed out she admitted to not understanding the math and had no actual criticisms of his book. In his archives there is a page that lists all the reviews for each of his books and he writes about them sometimes showing the criticism is just apologetics and absurd and sometimes stuff needs further explaining, anyway.....for the life of me I cannot find that page. I have links to individual review discussions they are under "archives" but I can't find any parent archive page and searches don't work under "review responses".
.

So the hell with it, if Carrier doesn't want to organize his blog so people can actually find stuff then I can't go any further with that. It's a page with every review of every book and a link to a response and it's just IMPOSSIBLE to locate?? Lame?

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Sena


"Reviewing On the Historicity of Jesus: Why We Might Have Reason for Doubt, Christina Petterson of the University of Newcastle, Australia, in the academic journal Relegere, says Carrier's methodology is "tenuous", that she was "shocked" by the way he uses mathematics,and that Carrier uses statistics in a way that seems designed "to intentionally confuse and obfuscate". Petterson says that statements in the book "reveal Carrier's ignorance of the field of New Testament studies and early Christianity"."




Ok here it is:
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/12038

this is a response by Carrier to Christina Petterson's review, he really chopped her up pretty good.

Carrier tends to really bring out anger in people as do all of the atheist/mythicist theory people do.
It's really neither here nor there if you're not a Christian anyways, it doesn't really matter what the exact history was. It's like Hercules and Zeus, who cares how the myth started. But since I was raised christian the historicity stuff is interesting to me.

But the more interesting questions are the metaphysical questions, like what is reality. It's cool that Seth put his model forward. It's a much much more realistic model than religion offers anyways.

Offline strangerthings

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@Joelr

There is some wonderful information in the Nag Hammadi. Yes I have seen this before.

I also list toward the concept that the Jesus referred to here is also not just one person but a part of each person. To me Jesus is the divine feminine portion of self. The imagination, from which....all life springs. The Sacred Feminine. The power of god on earth. Seth shares  that we are both male and female.

Even during these “days” was the concept of you being divine, a god, in training, using your reproductive power to create reality was a hush hush topic. One, we dont just open mouth and talk about the learnings to people who will not listen with the ear or see with the eyes, we dont fish out the millions of small fish and ignore the huge fish so-to-speak, and two.....we would get our heads lopped off or worse. People spoke .....in parables, code, metaphors that are trickier than most. IMHO

We now to this day, dont go around to everyone pushing this onto everyone. Those are for the blue blooded folks (church dogma).

We are the gods, and I can see and understand how laughable it would be, for example, if someone were pretending to be me, and place their life at the hands of a sacrificial ritual ......willingly. While the unbelievers all proclaim, faux me is dying for THEIR sins? Get the f outta here! Lolol

As in what do I have to do with your freedom? What do I have to do with your choices you have made voluntarily. Why do I die for your laziness? And this person, dying in my name, actually believes this is A) not meddling, B) applicable and beneficial C) what I am and what I represent

Guess what? The people fell for it! The blue bloods pushed this concept and murdered in its name.

If that took place in my name, I would be astounded! I would laugh too!

Like those prayer dolls.....given to people in Egypt when the old ways were being demolished and mediators were thus set in place. Mediators between god and people.

Someone can ask me to pray for them, and I can then do this by imagining they have what they have desired. If I am one who believes in the Great I Am, as me, their prayer more than likely will be a success. They began charging for this. Through these obnoxious prayer doll concepts.

This is what the pope is to people, same with preachers, priests etc. The blue blooded mediators.

It is almost like we are seeing the blood rites of the blue bloods in the crucifixion story.

It is laughable!

Also, from MY perspective, the writings are addessed to our imagination, Jesus. Telling our imagination, this behaviour is laughable! Therefor the ego sees this is not something only I/you have and I am not and you arent the be all end all.

We are each divine. We are all gods.

Perhaps the clever tale is trickier than we thought?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 05:17:42 PM by strangerthings »
“I form the light, and I create darkness; I make the weal, and I create the woe. I am the Lord who do all these things.” ~ Your I AMness

Offline strangerthings

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@Sena

IMO:

They piggy backed an already held concept of the people of, The Way.

Spirit crushers indeed.

But it wasnt a government project called Christianity though the crushing/wars/witch hunts/crusades may have been a project indeed.

Christ believers, Horus believers, Hunahapu believers, are into the same concepts, for their own culture. Even Sumer. Words are different, concepts altered, but who we are, what will happen, and our individuated prophecy, had not changed. Its ..... our second birth. That wont change as foundation in this earth school.

Of course the foolery will try and take over and blend it in with dogma and tyrannical systems. The, hide a lie in plain sight kind of thing. The bible isnt discussing real actual people they are everyone at some point in their life.

You know as well as I do that you dont do what someone tells you less you want to. We are jealous in this way.

Their I AM is not your I AM ....so a jealous god indeed!

Your I AM is not going to like worshipping anothers I AM.

Jacob is all of us wrestling with our angel. Our creative power and states of mind.

ISREAL is not a place here on earth we can all go and visit physically. Nor is Jerusalem.  The city of David. David the Christ child, Horus, Hunahpu. Your second birth. To be REborn from within (above).

Golgotha is your skull! No one will ever find its actual place located on earth unless they see that it is buried inside. Eternity ....infinity....buried in the mind of man.





« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 05:50:23 PM by strangerthings »
“I form the light, and I create darkness; I make the weal, and I create the woe. I am the Lord who do all these things.” ~ Your I AMness

Offline strangerthings

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Quote from: Joelr


n the Last Supper when Christ said, "This is my body, and this is my blood," He meant to show that the spirit was within all matter, interconnected, and yet apart--that His own spirit was independent of His body, and also in His own way to hint that He should no longer be identified with His body. "

Last suppers are standard mythological themes and are in Christianity because it's part of an important parable, not because it happened?!




The last suppers do not take place in the physical world.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 05:57:26 PM by strangerthings »
“I form the light, and I create darkness; I make the weal, and I create the woe. I am the Lord who do all these things.” ~ Your I AMness

Offline Sena

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Quote from: strangerthings
Christ believers, Horus believers, Hunahapu believers, are into the same concepts, for their own culture.
ST, welcome back to the forum. Horus is Egyptian, Hunahapu is Native American. There was a post recently about "That Art Thou" (Tat Twam Asi).

Offline Deb

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I thought I'd toss this into the mix, it's an unpublished session from one of Rob's typed transcript, courtesy of Ron Card on Facebook who has original transcripts with some unpublished sessions. I'll be adding this to the related "Seth On" topic when I get the time.

Seth: “The exploits of the historical Christ were composed of the activities of several men, wound into myth and fantasy – woven into a tale so spectacular, however, that it changed the course of civilization. Christianity is so important precisely because it is not based upon that realm of activity that you call fact.

Christianity gained its vitality because its roots superseded the world of fact, and formed the legend of a man called Christ, who within himself contained the most divine attributes that man could imagine, and gave birth in an historical context to an understandable picture of man’s greater reality. Men believed what they wanted to believe, and so from the lives of several men they formed a legend – each believing the legend to be true. One of the men, Paul, was a charlatan. Yet he was a miracle-worker, for he inflamed men’s imaginations and in his deception proved the validity of a vision in which he himself did not believe.

Now, the story of Paul comes down to you, and the story of his miraculous conversion — yet there were numberless unknown others as “legitimately” struck by God — awakened into truth, who followed other Gods, other pathways that were not accepted in your historic line of continuity. None of this contradicts the existence of the Christ spirit — which always existed despite, or separate from, the individual or individuals involved.

There were miracle-workers all over Jerusalem. Rome was dead already, and no fire was burning. That fire became Christianity, but it burned messiahs in its wake. Early Christianity was filled with fire, and only its oriental connections gave it touches of mercy.

The texts were rewritten time and time again. In some ways Paul destroyed more than he saved. It took centuries for the theories to jell.”

- Seth’s unpublished session 748 for June 2, 1975.

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.

Offline Joelr

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That is interesting. But what the history is looking like is that the Jesus story had already been done and was moving through Asia  - Romulus, Zalmoxus, Innanna, and four other pre-Christian gods that we know for sure were before Christ.
They all contained elements of a personal savior demi-god who battled satan/death, died and was ressurected and baptisim into the cult gave a follower forgiveness of sins and entry into an eternal realm. 12 apostles, virgin birth, carpenter demi-god, all that stuff was created with this new model.

The Jewish version was the last version. It's believed that writers of early scripture were looking for a way to re-vitalize Judaisim because the Jesus story is also a re-working of Moses and Isaih but for a new generation, which also included the new updated demi-god myth that was popular. People were tired of going to temple daily so Jesus replaced that need as well. Also the temple was destroyed.

Because of the Persian invasion and other wars the cultures were being mixed. The Seth version seems to give a lot of emphasis on Christ being a sort of original movement - "Christ entity" seems a bit intense being that it's really just mythology.
So is there a "Hercules entity" or a Thor entity or whatnot? If there is a Christ entity then why not an "entity" for every single myth? What about Santa Clause?
Seth's material on Christ seems to be influenced by Jane is what I'm getting at.

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Seth
The texts were rewritten time and time again. In some ways Paul destroyed more than he saved. It took centuries for the theories to jell.

Blame it all on Paul. Just sayin'.

"CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS is a work of investigative history. It documents and describes Christianity’s creation-event, which occurred in the year 49 or 50, in Antioch (present-day Antakya, Turkey), 20 years after Jesus had been crucified in Jerusalem for sedition against Roman rule. At this event, Paul broke away from the Jewish sect that Jesus had begun, and he took with him the majority of this new Jewish sect’s members; he convinced these people that Jesus had been a god, and that the way to win eternal salvation in heaven is to worship him as such."

[. . .]

"This book also explains and documents the tortuous 14-year-long conflict Paul had had with this sect’s leader, Jesus’s brother James, a conflict which caused Paul, in about the year 50, to perpetrate his coup d’état against James, and to start his own new religion: Christianity. 

"Then, this historical probe documents that the four canonical Gospel accounts of the words and actions of “Jesus” were written decades after Jesus, by followers of Paul, not by followers of Jesus; and that these writings placed into the mouth of “Jesus” the agenda of Paul. Paul thus became, via his followers, Christ’s ventriloquist."

https://www.amazon.com/CHRISTS-VENTRILOQUISTS-Event-Created-Christianity-ebook/dp/B007Q1H4EG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Offline chasman

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hey Deb,
      you remind me of a term I read years ago...... Pauline Christianity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity

Offline Sena

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Quote from: chasman
hey Deb,
      you remind me of a term I read years ago...... Pauline Christianity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_Christianity
chasman, Paul was a nice guy.

"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." (Paul to the Thessalonians)

http://biblehub.com/esv/2_thessalonians/1.htm

Offline chasman

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wow. brutal.
Jesus was teaching love.
that quote from Paul does not paint a loving picture.

imagine instead a loving, unconditionally loving God and Lord.
non-judgmental. nurturing. all forgiving. all caring.
those would be the God and Lord for me.

« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 06:12:06 AM by chasman »

Offline Deb

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Quote from: chasman
imagine instead a loving, unconditionally loving God and Lord.
non-judgmental. nurturing. all forgiving. all caring.

And that sounds like ATI to me. The Safe Universe.

I don't know, could be due to my lack of religious education (despite the efforts of family and more recently, neighbors), but Paul is starting to sound like a bit if a fanatic to me.


Offline chasman

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right on Deb.
very good.
thank you.

I have no religion. have not for decades.
born and raised Catholic.
but that was long ago now.
that said, I've said it before, but perhaps its worth repeating.
as for religion, I like what the Dalai Lama said:
my religion is simple. my religion is kindness.

as for God, ATI, I think of the source of all good kind things. the source of love power.
joy energy.
I wonder if Jesus (who taught love), would have been a-pauled (appalled), at what Paul said. lol
when I think of God, I think of wisdom.
and to me, to be kind is to be wise.
 

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Deb
Quote from: Seth
The texts were rewritten time and time again. In some ways Paul destroyed more than he saved. It took centuries for the theories to jell.

Blame it all on Paul. Just sayin'.

"CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS is a work of investigative history. It documents and describes Christianity’s creation-event, which occurred in the year 49 or 50, in Antioch (present-day Antakya, Turkey), 20 years after Jesus had been crucified in Jerusalem for sedition against Roman rule. At this event, Paul broke away from the Jewish sect that Jesus had begun, and he took with him the majority of this new Jewish sect’s members; he convinced these people that Jesus had been a god, and that the way to win eternal salvation in heaven is to worship him as such."

[. . .]

"This book also explains and documents the tortuous 14-year-long conflict Paul had had with this sect’s leader, Jesus’s brother James, a conflict which caused Paul, in about the year 50, to perpetrate his coup d’état against James, and to start his own new religion: Christianity.

"Then, this historical probe documents that the four canonical Gospel accounts of the words and actions of “Jesus” were written decades after Jesus, by followers of Paul, not by followers of Jesus; and that these writings placed into the mouth of “Jesus” the agenda of Paul. Paul thus became, via his followers, Christ’s ventriloquist."

https://www.amazon.com/CHRISTS-VENTRILOQUISTS-Event-Created-Christianity-ebook/dp/B007Q1H4EG/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8


That book is full of speculation and has not passed peer review by the pHD history community. The actual field of biblical studies have pointed out that Mark might have already been written when Paul wrote his letters because Paul references only revelation and scripture.

There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life.

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: chasman
wow. brutal.
Jesus was teaching love.
that quote from Paul does not paint a loving picture.

imagine instead a loving, unconditionally loving God and Lord.
non-judgmental. nurturing. all forgiving. all caring.
those would be the God and Lord for me.



Jesus was teaching lots of things. In Matthew he said he does not come for peace but with the sword for non-believers and he will cast them into an eternal lake of fire.

Jesus teaching only love is a new-age idea that isn't based in reality at all.

In Mark Jesus sens a disciple to a town and he says:
"Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you.... It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." In other words - Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.
 Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close.

Just pick up a bible and read the new testament.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 06:05:00 AM by Joelr »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Joelr
There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life
"Explanations of the true relationship of the 'brothers' of Jesus within his immediate nuclear family fall primarily into three categories. The first, called "the most natural inference" of the Gospel text by the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, is that the brothers of Jesus were the children of his parents, Joseph and Mary": See the family tree at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus#Degree_of_consanguinity_between_Jesus_and_his_brothers

It is the doctrine of the Virgin Birth which is a total lie fabricated by the Church. If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:16:51 AM by Sena »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Joelr
Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close.
And the doctrine of Everlasting Hell, which was not there in the Old Testament.

Offline LarryH

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Quote from: Sena
And the doctrine of Everlasting Hell, which was not there in the Old Testament.
I recently heard in a Coast-to-Coast interview a pretty logical argument against an eternal Hell: If you take the most evil person in history (say Hitler, for the sake of argument), as much suffering as he caused, it is still finite suffering. But eternal damnation is infinite, thus infinitely more suffering than this person caused.

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Sena
If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.

Heh, heh, heh, great point Sena. I guess by the same token, Eve would have to be a guy, right? But I don't suppose miracles follow the rules, that's what makes them special.

Quote from: Joelr
That book is full of speculation and has not passed peer review by the pHD history community. The actual field of biblical studies have pointed out that Mark might have already been written when Paul wrote his letters because Paul references only revelation and scripture.

There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life.

Peer review by the PhD history community? Do they really know the absolute truth?

Being the heathen that I am, I tend to take everything in the bible and attributed to Jesus with a salt lick. I also consider anything that Jesus supposedly said as hearsay, and anything written about Jesus and those times has to be speculation. You wrote "might have already been written"—"might" would be speculation, don't you think? As far as I know there is still no solid proof of anything in this area. While I'm not researching Christian history, I would think that if there was some major recent proof discovered it would be in the news.

Some interesting points are made here in this 20 year old article:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

And to be fair, there is no proof that Seth ever existed either, right? But that doesn't stop me from enjoying and benefiting from the books and messages within. No hell or brimstone either.


Offline chasman

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"Jesus was teaching lots of things. In Matthew he said he does not come for peace but with the sword for non-believers and he will cast them into an eternal lake of fire.

Jesus teaching only love is a new-age idea that isn't based in reality at all.

In Mark Jesus sens a disciple to a town and he says:
"Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you.... It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." In other words - Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.
 Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close.

Just pick up a bible and read the new testament."

This is very upsetting.
I have not been a Catholic for many decades now.  No organized religion at all.
But for a long time  I have believed in the utter goodness and lovingness of Jesus.
And now I wonder.
Is it possible you are  wrong?
I'm only wondering.
What if Jesus really was all the good things.  But  people wrote things about him that were not true.
Even in the new testament.




Offline chasman

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I like your  post very much Deb.

Offline chasman

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"Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close."

(I'm able to type on my laptop, much better than on my phone, so here goes.)

Joel, ouch.
that's very harsh.
but if its true, than I need to forget my previous belief in the excellent loving wonderful awesome nature of Jesus. I thought he was the great teacher of love.
if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
my God, would be a loving forgiving God. always. to everyone.
what if Jesus, really was a good guy. not a hood guy. not a thug. not a dude telling people to hurt and kill each other. (utterly despicable.)
and then his ideas, were corrupted.
his loving message and teachings were hijacked.
and the rest is history.
just wondering. how reliable are your and my sources?
how do we  know what to believe?
I think that the Seth stuff is clearly on a high plane. I think that it is saying love is supreme.
to be loving........ it is the way to be.
ATI is just alright with me (sung to the tune of Jesus is Just Alright With Me, of course).

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: chasman
"Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close."

(I'm able to type on my laptop, much better than on my phone, so here goes.)

Joel, ouch.
that's very harsh.
but if its true, than I need to forget my previous belief in the excellent loving wonderful awesome nature of Jesus. I thought he was the great teacher of love.
if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
my God, would be a loving forgiving God. always. to everyone.
what if Jesus, really was a good guy. not a hood guy. not a thug. not a dude telling people to hurt and kill each other. (utterly despicable.)
and then his ideas, were corrupted.
his loving message and teachings were hijacked.
and the rest is history.
just wondering. how reliable are your and my sources?
how do we  know what to believe?
I think that the Seth stuff is clearly on a high plane. I think that it is saying love is supreme.
to be loving........ it is the way to be.
ATI is just alright with me (sung to the tune of Jesus is Just Alright With Me, of course).


Looking through the new testament it's clear a lot of the good wisdom people knew of at that time (from Hindu and other established sources)was attributed to Jesus to bring this wisdom to a more modern crowd. So a lot of good stuff is there. But there is a lot of now-outdated knowledge as well. Jesus was a big believer in hell and Satan and non-believers going to hell and suffering for eternity.

the skeptics bible has a section of cruelty in the OT and NT
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

and on intolerance:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

The stuff about non-judgment and love and all the good stuff was also in Hindu and other pre-Christian religions as well as in Judiasim in some forms. It was also in the Gnostic Christian religions that were wiped out by the orthadox church.

It's believed the gospels are not actually historical but that is all we have as far as information on Jesus goes. If you want to imagine Jesus as some hippy, love is all you need guy then why not? What does it matter?

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Deb
Quote from: Sena
If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.



Quote from: Joelr
That book is full of speculation and has not passed peer review by the pHD history community. The actual field of biblical studies have pointed out that Mark might have already been written when Paul wrote his letters because Paul references only revelation and scripture.

There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life.

Peer review by the PhD history community? Do they really know the absolute truth?

Being the heathen that I am, I tend to take everything in the bible and attributed to Jesus with a salt lick. I also consider anything that Jesus supposedly said as hearsay, and anything written about Jesus and those times has to be speculation. You wrote "might have already been written"—"might" would be speculation, don't you think? As far as I know there is still no solid proof of anything in this area. While I'm not researching Christian history, I would think that if there was some major recent proof discovered it would be in the news.

Some interesting points are made here in this 20 year old article:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

And to be fair, there is no proof that Seth ever existed either, right? But that doesn't stop me from enjoying and benefiting from the books and messages within. No hell or brimstone either.



The thing about "peer review" in the historicity field is significant. To go from masters to pHD the entire several years are all spent learning how to verify sources to make the most accurate work possible. Then when a work is completed it must be combed over very carefully by other PHD people who check sources and so on.
Why is this important? Well I used to not care about that and I read all these books on early Christianity and I had all this information that I would discuss with people. Then I started paying attention to what actual scholars had to say and I realized all the "historical" books were largely made up nonsense designed to sell books.

So the field itself isn't perfect but they take all historical information and very carefully weigh sources and this and that and try to come to a reasonable consensis of what actually happened. And when they all agree then it's likely that that is what actually happened historically. Or at least that is our best guess. On the flip side, ANYONE can write a book and make up sources and actually completely lie and it's been done. I've seen articles explaining why one particular book (a book on Ceasar being Jesus) was completely made up and the author would just use complete denial and never even went to any school or used any source to write his book.

Another guy - Bart Ehrman wrote a book on Jesus and Richard Carrier wrote a piece on it exposing many many lies Ehrman used. So because of how many people out there will write books on subjects and claim to be "experts" it's important to have some type of standard.
So real historians are the ones who have the time to check sources and do the work. I started reading history thinking information was easy to get and everyone tells the truth but I was so wrong.
So when it comes to historical information I think it's important to see how a work fares with peer review.

Right now we know Mark was the first gospel but we don't know if Paul knew of the Mark gospel or if Paul was referencing some other scripture when he mentioned scripture.
We do know ACTS is fiction, there are several good peer reviewed books on that topic. Acts says Jesus had a brother but we are pretty sure that Acts is a fiction made up by the church mach later, to give Jesus and Paul certain features they wanted him to have (like a brother)
In the Paulean letters is where the other reference to "brother" is but many scholars believe this is a reference to "brothers in the lord" type brother.

That is the extent of the "brother" thing.

Offline chasman

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thank you for your reply Joelr.
what do you think about Hell and Satan?
do you think they exist?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 07:10:41 AM by chasman »

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: chasman
thank you for your reply Joelr.
what do you think about Hell and Satan?
do you think they exist?


Well I am a mythicist meaning I believe the latest work by pHD Richard Carrier proves the Jesus story was 100% mythology.
The demonology - hell/Satan - comes from the same place the dying/rising messiah demigod comes from, originally Zorastrinisim then into several other religions then came a Jewish version which was Jesus.

If you read this blog post:
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890

you will see that all of Christianity is taken from pagan sources which originated from Zorastrianism. So that included Satan and hell. Judaism didn't have any afterlife or evil Satan god before the Persian invasion, then suddenly you see that stuff appearing in the OT. The Persians were the Zorastrianism people.

So I believe the idea of Satan and hell is a pagan idea (we know it is) and the only connection to reality is that it's a metaphor.
Do bad things and bad things might happen to you. Promote violence and eventually you will get violence.
That is a general rule, not 100% because peaceful people also meet violent ends as well. So nothing is 100% but it seems like a good metaphor.
Hell and Satan are one of the things I mean by "outdated", it's ancient demonology that no longer serves us because most people don't believe that stuff is literal anymore.

Offline chasman

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thank you.
fascinating. I skimmed that article.
wow. so much I have absolutely no clue about.
I'm looking forward to reading more.
thank you again.

 

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