Author Topic: The return of Christ personality  (Read 25765 times)

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Joelr
There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life
"Explanations of the true relationship of the 'brothers' of Jesus within his immediate nuclear family fall primarily into three categories. The first, called "the most natural inference" of the Gospel text by the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, is that the brothers of Jesus were the children of his parents, Joseph and Mary": See the family tree at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus#Degree_of_consanguinity_between_Jesus_and_his_brothers

It is the doctrine of the Virgin Birth which is a total lie fabricated by the Church. If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 08:16:51 AM by Sena »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Joelr
Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close.
And the doctrine of Everlasting Hell, which was not there in the Old Testament.

Offline LarryH

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Quote from: Sena
And the doctrine of Everlasting Hell, which was not there in the Old Testament.
I recently heard in a Coast-to-Coast interview a pretty logical argument against an eternal Hell: If you take the most evil person in history (say Hitler, for the sake of argument), as much suffering as he caused, it is still finite suffering. But eternal damnation is infinite, thus infinitely more suffering than this person caused.

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Sena
If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.

Heh, heh, heh, great point Sena. I guess by the same token, Eve would have to be a guy, right? But I don't suppose miracles follow the rules, that's what makes them special.

Quote from: Joelr
That book is full of speculation and has not passed peer review by the pHD history community. The actual field of biblical studies have pointed out that Mark might have already been written when Paul wrote his letters because Paul references only revelation and scripture.

There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life.

Peer review by the PhD history community? Do they really know the absolute truth?

Being the heathen that I am, I tend to take everything in the bible and attributed to Jesus with a salt lick. I also consider anything that Jesus supposedly said as hearsay, and anything written about Jesus and those times has to be speculation. You wrote "might have already been written"—"might" would be speculation, don't you think? As far as I know there is still no solid proof of anything in this area. While I'm not researching Christian history, I would think that if there was some major recent proof discovered it would be in the news.

Some interesting points are made here in this 20 year old article:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

And to be fair, there is no proof that Seth ever existed either, right? But that doesn't stop me from enjoying and benefiting from the books and messages within. No hell or brimstone either.


Offline chasman

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"Jesus was teaching lots of things. In Matthew he said he does not come for peace but with the sword for non-believers and he will cast them into an eternal lake of fire.

Jesus teaching only love is a new-age idea that isn't based in reality at all.

In Mark Jesus sens a disciple to a town and he says:
"Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you.... It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." In other words - Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah.
 Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close.

Just pick up a bible and read the new testament."

This is very upsetting.
I have not been a Catholic for many decades now.  No organized religion at all.
But for a long time  I have believed in the utter goodness and lovingness of Jesus.
And now I wonder.
Is it possible you are  wrong?
I'm only wondering.
What if Jesus really was all the good things.  But  people wrote things about him that were not true.
Even in the new testament.




Offline chasman

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I like your  post very much Deb.

Offline chasman

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"Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close."

(I'm able to type on my laptop, much better than on my phone, so here goes.)

Joel, ouch.
that's very harsh.
but if its true, than I need to forget my previous belief in the excellent loving wonderful awesome nature of Jesus. I thought he was the great teacher of love.
if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
my God, would be a loving forgiving God. always. to everyone.
what if Jesus, really was a good guy. not a hood guy. not a thug. not a dude telling people to hurt and kill each other. (utterly despicable.)
and then his ideas, were corrupted.
his loving message and teachings were hijacked.
and the rest is history.
just wondering. how reliable are your and my sources?
how do we  know what to believe?
I think that the Seth stuff is clearly on a high plane. I think that it is saying love is supreme.
to be loving........ it is the way to be.
ATI is just alright with me (sung to the tune of Jesus is Just Alright With Me, of course).

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: chasman
"Jesus taught vengence, death to non-believers, it's ok to rape a slave girl, and many many mean and violent ideas, not just love. Not even close."

(I'm able to type on my laptop, much better than on my phone, so here goes.)

Joel, ouch.
that's very harsh.
but if its true, than I need to forget my previous belief in the excellent loving wonderful awesome nature of Jesus. I thought he was the great teacher of love.
if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.
my God, would be a loving forgiving God. always. to everyone.
what if Jesus, really was a good guy. not a hood guy. not a thug. not a dude telling people to hurt and kill each other. (utterly despicable.)
and then his ideas, were corrupted.
his loving message and teachings were hijacked.
and the rest is history.
just wondering. how reliable are your and my sources?
how do we  know what to believe?
I think that the Seth stuff is clearly on a high plane. I think that it is saying love is supreme.
to be loving........ it is the way to be.
ATI is just alright with me (sung to the tune of Jesus is Just Alright With Me, of course).


Looking through the new testament it's clear a lot of the good wisdom people knew of at that time (from Hindu and other established sources)was attributed to Jesus to bring this wisdom to a more modern crowd. So a lot of good stuff is there. But there is a lot of now-outdated knowledge as well. Jesus was a big believer in hell and Satan and non-believers going to hell and suffering for eternity.

the skeptics bible has a section of cruelty in the OT and NT
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

and on intolerance:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html

The stuff about non-judgment and love and all the good stuff was also in Hindu and other pre-Christian religions as well as in Judiasim in some forms. It was also in the Gnostic Christian religions that were wiped out by the orthadox church.

It's believed the gospels are not actually historical but that is all we have as far as information on Jesus goes. If you want to imagine Jesus as some hippy, love is all you need guy then why not? What does it matter?

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: Deb
Quote from: Sena
If it was a Virgin Birth, Jesus should have been female.



Quote from: Joelr
That book is full of speculation and has not passed peer review by the pHD history community. The actual field of biblical studies have pointed out that Mark might have already been written when Paul wrote his letters because Paul references only revelation and scripture.

There is no evidence that Jesus has an Earthly brother except in ACTS which is fiction created by the church to add facts to Jesus's life.

Peer review by the PhD history community? Do they really know the absolute truth?

Being the heathen that I am, I tend to take everything in the bible and attributed to Jesus with a salt lick. I also consider anything that Jesus supposedly said as hearsay, and anything written about Jesus and those times has to be speculation. You wrote "might have already been written"—"might" would be speculation, don't you think? As far as I know there is still no solid proof of anything in this area. While I'm not researching Christian history, I would think that if there was some major recent proof discovered it would be in the news.

Some interesting points are made here in this 20 year old article:
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/did-jesus-exist/

And to be fair, there is no proof that Seth ever existed either, right? But that doesn't stop me from enjoying and benefiting from the books and messages within. No hell or brimstone either.



The thing about "peer review" in the historicity field is significant. To go from masters to pHD the entire several years are all spent learning how to verify sources to make the most accurate work possible. Then when a work is completed it must be combed over very carefully by other PHD people who check sources and so on.
Why is this important? Well I used to not care about that and I read all these books on early Christianity and I had all this information that I would discuss with people. Then I started paying attention to what actual scholars had to say and I realized all the "historical" books were largely made up nonsense designed to sell books.

So the field itself isn't perfect but they take all historical information and very carefully weigh sources and this and that and try to come to a reasonable consensis of what actually happened. And when they all agree then it's likely that that is what actually happened historically. Or at least that is our best guess. On the flip side, ANYONE can write a book and make up sources and actually completely lie and it's been done. I've seen articles explaining why one particular book (a book on Ceasar being Jesus) was completely made up and the author would just use complete denial and never even went to any school or used any source to write his book.

Another guy - Bart Ehrman wrote a book on Jesus and Richard Carrier wrote a piece on it exposing many many lies Ehrman used. So because of how many people out there will write books on subjects and claim to be "experts" it's important to have some type of standard.
So real historians are the ones who have the time to check sources and do the work. I started reading history thinking information was easy to get and everyone tells the truth but I was so wrong.
So when it comes to historical information I think it's important to see how a work fares with peer review.

Right now we know Mark was the first gospel but we don't know if Paul knew of the Mark gospel or if Paul was referencing some other scripture when he mentioned scripture.
We do know ACTS is fiction, there are several good peer reviewed books on that topic. Acts says Jesus had a brother but we are pretty sure that Acts is a fiction made up by the church mach later, to give Jesus and Paul certain features they wanted him to have (like a brother)
In the Paulean letters is where the other reference to "brother" is but many scholars believe this is a reference to "brothers in the lord" type brother.

That is the extent of the "brother" thing.

Offline chasman

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thank you for your reply Joelr.
what do you think about Hell and Satan?
do you think they exist?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2018, 07:10:41 AM by chasman »

Offline Joelr

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Quote from: chasman
thank you for your reply Joelr.
what do you think about Hell and Satan?
do you think they exist?


Well I am a mythicist meaning I believe the latest work by pHD Richard Carrier proves the Jesus story was 100% mythology.
The demonology - hell/Satan - comes from the same place the dying/rising messiah demigod comes from, originally Zorastrinisim then into several other religions then came a Jewish version which was Jesus.

If you read this blog post:
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/13890

you will see that all of Christianity is taken from pagan sources which originated from Zorastrianism. So that included Satan and hell. Judaism didn't have any afterlife or evil Satan god before the Persian invasion, then suddenly you see that stuff appearing in the OT. The Persians were the Zorastrianism people.

So I believe the idea of Satan and hell is a pagan idea (we know it is) and the only connection to reality is that it's a metaphor.
Do bad things and bad things might happen to you. Promote violence and eventually you will get violence.
That is a general rule, not 100% because peaceful people also meet violent ends as well. So nothing is 100% but it seems like a good metaphor.
Hell and Satan are one of the things I mean by "outdated", it's ancient demonology that no longer serves us because most people don't believe that stuff is literal anymore.

Offline chasman

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thank you.
fascinating. I skimmed that article.
wow. so much I have absolutely no clue about.
I'm looking forward to reading more.
thank you again.

Offline Michael Sternbach

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Hey folks,

Good to "see" you. Haven't been around for awhile.  :)

Just for the record, Christ's Ventriloquists, if anything, lends support to the statements Seth makes towards the end of Seth Speaks. For one thing (running from memory), he does say there that Paul was overly zealous in his approach to spreading the new religion and consequently messed up. And Zuesse's book (which I haven't read yet, though I am surely going to) seems to greatly illustrate and elaborate on this important point.

Seth also emphasizes that the story around the Crucifixion was primarily a psychic event, meaningful in its own right, while much of it didn't occur on the physical level. That again seems consistent with Zuesse's hypothesis, according to which the content of the Gospels was partially contrived for 'political' reasons.

But Zuesse does NOT suggest that the story of Jesus had no foundation in reality whatsoever, rather, he hints (in the introduction) at those mentions of Jesus in sources outside the Biblical Gospels. Just saying that those sources didn't have any appreciable impact on Christianity overall. Again, he seems quite in keeping with Seth's view.

Some such (Gnostic) texts are at odds with the story of the Crucifixion, much like Seth's version of the historical events. So more power to him.

However, I learned quickly that there is no safer way to upset even a moderate Christian more than by questioning the reality of the Crucifixion.  ;D Whereas personally, I always cared more for Jesus's teachings, as they have come down to us also outside the Biblical Gospels, most note-worthy in the Gospel of Thomas. Great wisdom in there, IMO! And it strikes me as weird that some devout Christians refuse to even look at this and certain other apocryphal texts.

I may have additional remarks to make once I have read Christ's Ventriloquists, and reread the relevant chapter of Seth Speaks.

For the time being, I just applaud Seth and Jane Roberts for their psychic foresight as well as courage to present what now looks like a more accurate picture of what actually happened in those days, published at a time when there was basically no critical discussion allowed yet regarding it.

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Michael Sternbach
I may have additional remarks to make once I have read Christ's Ventriloquists

Please do! At this point all I can think is that the whole Christ story was for the most part a fabrication, as well as the quotes, actions and history attributed to him. Seth does indicate that there was a Jesus person who did exist in reality, but the facts around his existence and history are for the most part legend. Which is what I personally feel and can accept.

Even such a basic tenet as the Golden Rule, attributed solely to Jesus in my upbringing, has historical roots beyond the scope Christ and Christianity.


Offline Joelr

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule#Ancient_India

I would wait and see what scholarship has to say about Eric Zuesse's work. Check out the reviews from scholars to see how accurate his work is.

Offline LarryH

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I do not recall a source for this tidbit, but I once heard or read that one of my favorite quotes attributed to Jesus, defending an accused woman about to be stoned, "He who is without sin, let him throw the first stone," was not in the earliest known version of the gospels - it was added later.

Offline Deb

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Nice one Larry! There are a lot of great adages from the bible. I've always loved adages in general because they contain eternal truths in just a few words. Another favorite of mine is the "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

People still seem to have trouble with that one.  ;)

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
Another favorite of mine is the "first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will be able to see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
Deb, not sitting in judgement on other people is a clear message from Seth.

Offline Deb

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Yes, true. And to not judge ourselves, to trust that who and what we are, as individuals, have a purpose. Charity begins at home, right?

I had the weirdest thought today that the return of the Christ personality could be Seth. I'll have to think about that some more. Judging by all the Seth Facebook groups and pages and members, his message is certainly stronger and more widely spread than ever before. World wide. Having that many Seth readers (who actually understand the materials and the messages) has to be good for humanity as a whole, don't you think? The trinity of Seth, Jane and Rob made the seed planting a possibility, and the message continues to grow far and wide. Laurel marrying Rob was no accident either, she's much younger than Jane and Rob and I think it was pre-planned in F2 that she would continue to carry the torch after Jane and Rob passed. Laurel helped Rob publish books after Jane passed, so she knows the process.

Ron put this up on FB, it caught my attention:

"Physically speaking, man's purpose is to help enrich the quality of existence in all of its dimensions. Spiritually speaking, his purpose is to understand the qualities of love and creativity, to intellectually and physically understand the sources of his being, and lovingly create other dimensions of reality of which his is presently unaware."

Dreams, Evolution I, Session 901

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
I had the weirdest thought today that the return of the Christ personality could be Seth.
That is a distinct (and exciting) possibility.
Seth would not have said so explicitly, as that would have been blowing his own trumpet.
This is a gospel quotation:

"And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear. To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others."

http://biblehub.com/matthew/11-15.htm

Offline Michael Sternbach

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Quote from: Deb
Yes, true. And to not judge ourselves, to trust that who and what we are, as individuals, have a purpose. Charity begins at home, right?

I had the weirdest thought today that the return of the Christ personality could be Seth. I'll have to think about that some more. Judging by all the Seth Facebook groups and pages and members, his message is certainly stronger and more widely spread than ever before. World wide. Having that many Seth readers (who actually understand the materials and the messages) has to be good for humanity as a whole, don't you think? The trinity of Seth, Jane and Rob made the seed planting a possibility, and the message continues to grow far and wide. Laurel marrying Rob was no accident either, she's much younger than Jane and Rob and I think it was pre-planned in F2 that she would continue to carry the torch after Jane and Rob passed. Laurel helped Rob publish books after Jane passed, so she knows the process.

Ron put this up on FB, it caught my attention:

"Physically speaking, man's purpose is to help enrich the quality of existence in all of its dimensions. Spiritually speaking, his purpose is to understand the qualities of love and creativity, to intellectually and physically understand the sources of his being, and lovingly create other dimensions of reality of which his is presently unaware."

Dreams, Evolution I, Session 901


That's an interesting view, but I don't think it to be correct in a literal sense. Seth's description of the return of the Christ entity is too detailed for that.

Personally, I imagine that this individual will have a broad understanding of all the major spiritual and esoteric bodies of knowledge, and that would include the Seth material to be sure, so foundational to many of the more modern spiritual approaches.

Rather than limiting himself to any particular system (traditional or modern), he will demonstrate how they all refer to certain common topics, although sometimes looking at them from different perspectives. Based on that, the utter folly of waging war over divergent religious views should become entirely obvious to any but the most ignorant human beings. (Okay, ideally speaking.)

I further assume that the reincarnated Christ will also show ways to reconcile the spiritual with the scientific view, along the lines suggested by the Seth books.

All this seems to me in keeping with Seth's announcement that the reincarnated Christ will provide humanity with a much needed new 'metaphysical system of thought.'

Thoughts? (No pun intended.)

Offline Deb

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Quote from: Michael Sternbach
That's an interesting view, but I don't think it to be correct in a literal sense. Seth's description of the return of the Christ entity is too detailed for that.
. . .
Thoughts? (No pun intended.)

Shhhhh. I'm still enjoying the new perspective that Seth may be the Returned One. I've been too busy with work to do much more than think about that, but I intend to go over what he said about that topic with this new perspective in mind and see if anything looks different now. Little tidbits keep coming to mind. I could certainly be chasing after a red herring, but right now it has captured my imagination and I like that. And as far as I can tell, what you said in your post does not contradict that possibility.

I should also probably read this topic again from the beginning. Ouch, by far it is the most popular topic in the history of this forum. 23,707 views, 290 replies. This will be 291.


Offline chasman

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hey Deb,
     just felt like chiming in.
this is my opinion. it is the way I see things right now.
I am not able to quote from the Bible and Scripture. I will probably make misteaks (har har de har).
but I hope the general gist will be clear, of how I see things.
I could be wrong about some things. but this is what I think anyway............

Seth was more advanced than Jesus.
Seth taught about and described love stuff.
a loving creative benevolent life energy force. all that is.
he did not talk about being God fearing.
he talked about love.
he did not talk about the threat of hell, and eternal damnation, and the devil if you did not believe in God and follow the commandments.
he talked about this Earthly existence being a school for all of us. we are here as students learning how to use energy. we are here to learn how to use energy in constructive ways. not destructive. constructive.
thats my thinking.
it would be interesting to hear a conversation between Jesus and Seth.
what would Jesus have to say about Seth's ideas regarding hell and eternal damnation?
wow, I would so love to know.
I just so prefer and love the idea of an all loving God force, compared to a mean punishing angry God.
 

Offline Sena

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Quote from: chasman
Seth was more advanced than Jesus.
Yes.
Quote
he did not talk about the threat of hell, and eternal damnation, and the devil if you did not believe in God and follow the commandments.
He corrected Jesus's mistakes.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:26:22 AM by Sena »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: Deb
but I intend to go over what he said about that topic with this new perspective in mind and see if anything looks different now. Little tidbits keep coming to mind.
"Now: the message of the Christ entity was, in religious terms “You are all children of God—the ‘sinner’ as well as the saint.” Indeed, according to the original Christ thesis, while a man could sin, no man was identified as a sinner. He was not identified with his failures or limitations, but instead with his potential.

The Christ entity knew the vitality, power, and strength of myths. That vitality allows for different readings, of course, and through man’s changing development he reads his myths differently, yet they serve as containers for intuitional knowledge.

Christ’s thesis was inserted into a Jewish tradition dealing deeply with guilt, and the new thesis was meant to temper that tradition, and to spread beyond it. Instead, while carrying the belief in man’s potential, Christianity smothered the thesis beneath a slag heap of old guilt. Guilt can be used to manipulate people, of course, and it is a fine tool in the hands of government, religion, science, or any large organization that wants to retain its power.

Christ dealt with myths, once again—potent ones that stood for inner realities. Christ clothed those realities in colorful stories geared to people’s understanding. I am using the name here, Christ, as one person for the sake of discussion, for that entity touched many lives, each leaping into a kind of super-reality as it joyfully played its part in the religious drama."

—TPS4 Deleted Session January 9, 1978

Offline Deb

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Quote from: chasman
Seth was more advanced than Jesus.
Seth taught about and described love stuff.
a loving creative benevolent life energy force. all that is.
he did not talk about being God fearing.
he talked about love.
he did not talk about the threat of hell, and eternal damnation, and the devil if you did not believe in God and follow the commandments.

Thanks for chiming in, I'm with you as far as avoiding quoting the bible. And this too is just my personal feeling, since I'm certainly no biblical scholar. Just the opposite actually.

I agree that Seth is more advanced than the character we understand to be Jesus from the New Testament, but my feeling is that everything the NT says about him has been completely fabricated to fit various religious agendas over the millennia. Words attributed to having been said by him were not even written down until decades(?) after his 'death.' Seth's teachings feel more entity-level to me, beyond the scope of one individual consciousness. Wise and benevolent with knowledge way beyond this plane of existence.

There may have been a man Jesus, I have no reason to doubt that, he had new ideas and was more loving in his teachings about ATI than what the Old-T Rabbis were maintaining, but any truth about the man has been dressed up and remade and disguised. Or as Seth said about his own teachings, the teachings of Speakers over the ages:

Rob: "I was just wondering why a body of knowledge like this couldn't have accumulated over the centuries, slowly."

Seth: "It has. But it has been taken into various doctrines and religions that have grown up about it until it is almost unrecognizable. Bits of it appear here and there, scattered, distorted and misleading. It comes naked and everyone must put clothing on it, which usually ends up as either nonsense or armored dogma."

The Early Sessions, Book 1, Session 34

An interesting twist to the Jesus story came through Facebook today. I'll add it in a spoiler because it's long and no one may be interested in reading it. But basically, it adds Jesus stories from Indian, Japanese and Muslim folklore. There's actually a "Tomb of Christ" in Japan, supposedly recognized by Israel (whatever that means).

Sorry but you are not allowed to view spoiler contents.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 08:33:15 AM by Deb »

Offline chasman

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thank you very much for your reply Sena.
thank you for all you wrote Deb.
I love reading everything you write.
here are a couple more thoughts of mine.
the Christian Jesus, God the Father stuff is riddled with hypocrisy.
God loves us, and is all forgiving.
but, he'll send you to hell forever, if you don't believe in him, and obey him.
that is sooooooooo bad.
the Seth description of the almighty higher power All That Is, is super excellent.
All That Is, is "all that".
do you get my play on words? "all that"

http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/all-that

"superior, as good as it gets"

edit:  more thoughts.
its the utter meanness that I find so awful beyond words to describe though.
what kind of a God is that mean. that unforgiving. that messed up, that he (or she or it) sends you to hell forever? I think its absolutely awful.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 03:13:34 PM by chasman »

Offline Sena

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Quote from: chasman
what kind of a God is that mean. that unforgiving. that messed up, that he (or she or it) sends you to hell forever?
It all boils down to money. The Catholic Church became powerful because it was able to attract a lot of money in donations. You could be saved from hell if you gave money to the Church. This was called an "indulgence".

" .....in the later Middle Ages growth of considerable abuses occurred. Greedy commissaries sought to extract the maximum amount of money for each indulgence. Professional "pardoners" - who were sent to collect alms for a specific project - practiced the unrestricted sale of indulgences. Many of these quaestores exceeded official Church doctrine, whether in avarice or ignorant zeal, and promised rewards like salvation from eternal damnation in return for money."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

Offline chasman

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wow. thank you very much Sena.
just amazing.

 

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