Probable Selves and Counterparts

[Kyle]

In June of 1969 we were really startled when Seth told us that Rob might be visited by one of his "probable selves." At the time of the session, we didn't know what probable selves were, though Seth had used the term once or twice in the past. What is a probable self? According to Seth, each of us has counterparts in other systems of reality; not identical selves or twins, but other selves who are part of our entity, developing abilities in a different way than we are here.

These probable personalities are further removed from us than our reincarnational selves, more like distant relations who bear a family resemblance. According to the information we have so far, some of them have methods of perception different from ours.

Hi guys,

The above excerpt is from the first page of Ch. 15 of The Seth Material, hiding in broad daylight, since I never realized until now that it addresses two of my big questions: How are counterparts related to reincarnations, or to probable selves? Seth clarifies it all in that single paragraph, at least for me. A counterpart is another term for a probable self. Probable selves are "more like distant relations" than reincarnational selves.

I already was convinced that counterparts are closely related to "kindred births," my term for astrological counterparts. I was not at all sure where reincarnations fit into this, but now I have some findings that have further clarified this for me. I've recently started studying documented reincarnations, with mixed astrological results. It's possible that kindred births are distantly related to reincarnations, as are counterparts in Seth's terms. And (as I posted a while back) Seth stated elsewhere that a link exists between reincarnation and astrology. So, I don't really have this figured out, but I had to start somewhere.

I didn't find any other statements like this elsewhere in the Seth books, which makes me wonder what I've overlooked. Maybe the later books assume that the reader knows this book. All I had to do was start re-reading it before I came upon it. I feel like I learned something.

[usmaak]

I think that I remember some of that material from the first early sessions book.  If I recall correctly, Rob was never visited by one of his probable selves.

[Deb]

Well, here's my two cents. A few years ago I started a sort of glossary of terms of the various "selves" we can be. I should probably take a look at the links before I post the topic to make sure they make sense, but what the heck, I like to live on the edge.  https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?msg=10451. I forgot about it until now. That was long before the Seth Search Engine was created, so I could probably really flesh it out now.

My understanding of counterparts was that they are other incarnations of ours, but they exist in our current time frame, meaning two incarnations within the same time period so we could actually meet each other. The kindred births idea fits. But that quote from the Seth Material kind of trashes my interpretation, since he said they are from other systems. On second thought, I don't recall Seth ever saying we are limited to reincarnating into this system only.

Last summer I listened to a Michael Newton book, where one of his hypnosis subjects was able to psychically connect with a counterpart of his living in Canada (the subject was in the US), but only when he was under hypnosis. There was a person on this forum from Russia who swears we are counterparts, but I have no feelings about that one way or the other. But I'm pretty dense when it comes to psychic stuff.

Probable selves are the selves existing in other probable realities, a sort of branching off of ourselves, where we follow our path in life by making certain decisions, and the decisions we did not choose contain another version of ourselves following different paths. They are following their own paths, but are splinters of us the way we are splinters of our Entity. Once we are finished reincarnating and exist again in the nonphysical, we are supposed to have access to all of the memories and experiences of our other probable selves and incarnations, and finally experience a feeling of wholeness. A lot of people who have had NDEs say they experienced that feeling of being complete and whole when on the other side.

Seth did say that we are psychically connected with our incarnations and probable selves, and often interact in dreams.

[LarryH]

My understanding of counterparts was that they are other incarnations of ours, but they exist in our current time frame, meaning two incarnations within the same time period so we could actually meet each other.

Deb, that was also my understanding, though it appears Seth has said otherwise (or been inconsistent). In the first quote from KylePierce above, Rob seems to suggest that probable selves and counterparts are the same thing, at least potentially so. However, whether or not we call them counterparts, in Sethian terms, there is nothing to prevent us from having two incarnations at the same time. And it makes sense that probable selves would be the aspect of a self that chose a different probability, sort of like the Rob that died in a plane crash and the Rob that died as a child. It's hard to imagine how that kind of probable self could physically meet Rob, so it seems as if Seth may have been talking about a counterpart as a simultaneous incarnation potentially meeting Rob.

[Kyle]

I think that I remember some of that material from the first early sessions book.  If I recall correctly, Rob was never visited by one of his probable selves.

Right, Seth wanted Rob to try picking up on his probable self but nothing came of it, seemingly.

[Deb]

Deb, that was also my understanding, though it appears Seth has said otherwise (or been inconsistent).

Seth's use of "probable" in the quote Kyle provided is a little confusing, but my sense is that he didn't mean probable personalities in the same way as I think of probable selves/realities.

This is from the link I provided above to my "glossary."

"In Volume 2 of "Unknown" Reality Seth began developing his theory of counterparts — that the larger psychological self, or entity, of each of us manifests not just one physical life in any given century, say, but several, so as to gain that much more experience in a variety of roles involving different ages, nationalities and languages, sexual orientations, family roles, and so forth. As I understand the counterparts thesis, the individual may or may not meet at least some of his or her counterparts, scattered as they can be among earth's different countries and cultures. Jane and I have encountered a few of our respective counterparts, however, principally through her now-defunct ESP class."
—NoME Chapter 5: Session 834, February 5, 1979

"The counterpart notion is Seth's timeless version of his concept of consecutive incarnations."
—DEaVF2 Chapter 12: Session 941, February 8, 1982

I decided to search on counterpart ( https://findingseth.com/q/counterpart/ ) and there were 99 results, quite a bit of information.  Just a few more interesting quotes:

"Psychically, you are made up of counterparts, as physically you come from various races. There are far more counterpart groupings than there are races, but then your definition of races is arbitrary. [...] Counterparts can be better related to physical families, for you might well have four or five counterparts alive in one century, as you might have four or five family members spanning the same amount of time. Basically, however, counterparts deal with fulfillments and developments that transcend races or countries."
—UR2 Section 5: Session 724 December 4, 1974

"(2. Once when Jane woke up she had the idea of "counterparts and four-fronted selves" in mind. As she wrote today: "There might be four counterparts alive in one general time period — a century — for example. [...] Each person is distinct, yet each is an added dimension of the others, so that on different levels the four [in this case] create an alliance and become a four-fronted counterpart self; covering a given century ... This is a 'working alliance' that exists in potential form always. But the four-fronted counterpart self's own sense of continuity is not broken up; it persists outside of space and time, while its parts — the individual selves, or counterparts — live in *space and time...."*6"
—UR2 Section 5: Session 724 December 4, 1974

"(...Seth's naming a good number of class members as counterparts came as no great surprise to Jane and me — but it did make us more than a little suspicious at first. We've been thinking about counterpart ideas since Seth introduced the concept two months ago; see the opening notes for the 721st session. Then, in the 726th session, Seth named Jane and me as counterparts of each other. Although we keep the power of suggestion in mind, on one level we found Seth's associations quite pleasant for the most part, and, once given, somewhat as we might have expected them to be. Yet I felt no strong surge of emotion, for instance, to learn that Norma Pryor [whom I've met but a few times], Peter Smith, and Jack Pierce are counterparts of mine — nor did they when I read Seth's material to them during ESP class six nights later. Jane's feelings were pretty similar to mine, when Seth named three students as her counterparts: Sue Watkins, Zelda, and "the young man from Maryland....""
—UR2 Appendix 25: (For Session 732)

Now I wonder who my counterparts are, what they are doing, and if any of the people I'm associated with in my current life are counterparts. AND I wonder if family members could be counterparts, such as a parent and child. 

[Kyle]

Deb, thanks for looking into this confusing term, "counterpart." Here's yet another twist, in the last paragraphs of Ch. 14 in The Seth Material (in bold):

"The electric reality of a dream is decoded, so that its effects are experienced not only by the brain, but in the furthest reaches of the body. Dream experiences, long forgotten consciously, are forever contained as electrically coded data within the cells of the physical organism. ... They exist within the cells [along with all an individual's experience] ... The cells form about them. These electrically coded signals form counterparts of complete experience, and the pattern is then independent of physical reality."

In other words, our dreams attain a certain immortality of their own, along with our personalities. Seth makes this clear: "Each individual from birth forms his own counterpart from built-up, individual, continuous electrical signals that include his dreams, thoughts, desires, and experiences. At physical death his personality then exists detached from its physical form."

I can see from all this that Seth has used the term "counterpart" in various ways as his thinking developed over time. So maybe The Seth Material represents only one stage of that. It could also be that Seth has intended this term in a more general way than I've been thinking of it. But this latest quote suggests a thought that might tie all of these meanings together. If we each create our own (electromagnetic) counterpart based on our lifetime of experience, then what?

So, whether we are talking about incarnations from other places, times, systems, or whatever, "personality then exists detached from its physical form." This says to me that in all of these cases there is an electromagnetic "counterpart" that exists in a timeless relation to certain others, in a special kind of kinship. I don't know how else to make sense of the various usages of this term.

[LarryH]

This discussion brings to mind events from the '70's that I always wondered about. I was friends with a psychic who allegedly channeled a personality in trance. When not in trance, this psychic made some remarkably accurate predictions about my life. When in trance, this 'personality' would talk about the past lives of the session attendees. In one of those sessions, I was told that I had been an American Indian who had been mauled by a bear, after which I was no longer able to hunt and was instead limited to "women's work" such as making pottery. Now, over the course of months, some people in the group surrounding this psychic were telling me that I had to meet some guy that they knew, and that I would really like him. Eventually, I did meet him, but could not figure out why people thought I would really like him. In fact, I didn't like him, though I couldn't put my finger on why. At one point, I overheard him sharing with someone else that the psychic had told him that in a past life, he had been an American Indian who had been mauled by a bear (etc., same story). At the time, and even now, I felt that this was proof that the psychic, at least the trance personality, was fake. But I do allow for the possibility that the guy that everyone wanted me to meet was a counterpart, and we simply shared the same past life.

[Kyle]

This discussion brings to mind events from the '70's that I always wondered about. I was friends with a psychic who allegedly channeled a personality in trance. When not in trance, this psychic made some remarkably accurate predictions about my life. When in trance, this 'personality' would talk about the past lives of the session attendees. In one of those sessions, I was told that I had been an American Indian who had been mauled by a bear, after which I was no longer able to hunt and was instead limited to "women's work" such as making pottery. Now, over the course of months, some people in the group surrounding this psychic were telling me that I had to meet some guy that they knew, and that I would really like him. Eventually, I did meet him, but could not figure out why people thought I would really like him. In fact, I didn't like him, though I couldn't put my finger on why. At one point, I overheard him sharing with someone else that the psychic had told him that in a past life, he had been an American Indian who had been mauled by a bear (etc., same story). At the time, and even now, I felt that this was proof that the psychic, at least the trance personality, was fake. But I do allow for the possibility that the guy that everyone wanted me to meet was a counterpart, and we simply shared the same past life.

I was told by a psychic who is well-regarded locally, that she saw a past life where I was "a funeral director in ancient Egypt." This struck me as comical because it's such a caricature. What's the perfect place for a funeral director with big ambitions? The land of the pyramids, perhaps? So there's that, but anyway, I do allow for the possibility that she was speaking the truth.

[Kyle]

At the time, and even now, I felt that this was proof that the psychic, at least the trance personality, was fake.

I guess we do have to allow for hucksters among trance personalities, but I would much prefer it to be the psychic.

[Deb]

I can see from all this that Seth has used the term "counterpart" in various ways as his thinking developed over time. So maybe The Seth Material represents only one stage of that. It could also be that Seth has intended this term in a more general way than I've been thinking of it. But this latest quote suggests a thought that might tie all of these meanings together. If we each create our own (electromagnetic) counterpart based on our lifetime of experience, then what?

So, whether we are talking about incarnations from other places, times, systems, or whatever, "personality then exists detached from its physical form." This says to me that in all of these cases there is an electromagnetic "counterpart" that exists in a timeless relation to certain others, in a special kind of kinship. I don't know how else to make sense of the various usages of this term.

Oh boy, this is getting complicated.

I have to agree that Seth used the term counterpart in more than one way. Oxford dictionary defines counterpart as a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place. I can see the term covering a variety of situations. There have been times in the past where I'd wished Seth had used another term for what he was explaining. Maybe it's the limitations of our language. I looked up synonyms, and nothing else seemed to fit as well as counterpart for any of his explanations.

At the time, and even now, I felt that this was proof that the psychic, at least the trance personality, was fake. But I do allow for the possibility that the guy that everyone wanted me to meet was a counterpart, and we simply shared the same past life.

Great story. I've had problems with the idea of trance channelers, while I've had a couple of mind boggling experiences with psychics. But no consistency there. So many videos I've seen of channelers don't convince me at all. While I've stopped questioning Jane, I really wish I had experienced the ESP classes in person. The main question I wish I could ask the class students is if they'd ever questioned Jane's validity. Having been as close as the 3rd row center at an Esther Hicks assembly, I was very attentive when she was "transitioning" to Abraham. Shoes coming off, planting of feet, deep breaths and head nodding are all very easy to contrive. But having had eye contact with her and seeing the color of her eyes change... that takes some serious talent. I feel if Esther is truly able to trance channel at times, it's peppered with her faking it. I've never had that feeling from Jane, from the books or CDs.

[Kyle]

have to agree that Seth used the term counterpart in more than one way. Oxford dictionary defines counterpart as a person or thing holding a position or performing a function that corresponds to that of another person or thing in another place. I can see the term covering a variety of situations. There have been times in the past where I'd wished Seth had used another term for what he was explaining. Maybe it's the limitations of our language. I looked up synonyms, and nothing else seemed to fit as well as counterpart for any of his explanations.

I agree, what other word could he use but counterpart? Except for the idea of electrically coded counterparts, which I had never seen in the Seth corpus before. He says "electrically coded signals form counterparts of complete experience," which sounds almost like a personal Akashic record. That would be a big topic all by itself. I couldn't resist speculating about how it all fits together, but of course it's just that, my speculations. I wonder, is there anywhere else Seth talks about that? I need to do some more homework.

[Deb]

He says "electrically coded signals form counterparts of complete experience," which sounds almost like a personal Akashic record.

I guess it would have to be electrically coded, since what's stored in the brain/body would end with the demise of the physical form. And while I think Seth said there were no Akashic records the way we think about them, the coded signals would have to exist somewhere... maybe as an impression in our entity? Let us know if you figure this out. The Seth Search Engine should be of some help.