Perception of the people's age - beliefs vs mind vs body.

[Vladimir]

I just saw a discussion here about mind power over the aging.
I want to clarify one apparently widespread confusion regarding the role of mind...
Consider Mind is that kind of "apparatus" responsible for the ongoing process of thinking related to our daily life. If you change your thought flow to thinking: "I am not old" or " I am 20 years younger" etc... and even spending some time in affirmations - nothing will change in you.
There might be some visible effect from regular daily affirmation, but most probably you will get tired from that activity before you start noticing any change in you...

All these talks confuse mind activity (on-going thinking) for subconscious beliefs which are not "on the surface" so to speak. Many of those beliefs are so deep in subconscious that you actually don't even realize their presence or what they are... Even your affirmations can barely scratch the surface of beliefs if ever... People don;t realize for ex. that even your perception of the air temperature is nothing else but your deep seated subconscious idea about what feeling should correspond to what temperature!

Those are the most fundamental beliefs which Carl Jung called "Archie-types" - these beliefs form  human bodies,  races, sexes, perception of climate, etc...
It is these deep subconscious beliefs imprinted into cells DNA and form our aging processes as a function of time. Changing these beliefs take much more than THINKING. In other words mind is not a tool capable to change anything here...

I did experiments to verify some methods described in Yoga literature regarding stopping or even reversing the process and discovered many surprises...

At the physical level body can be changed to the feel and performance of being decades younger just as Yoga says. It takes tremendous focus, dedication and withdrawal from "normal" daily life. The outcome can be jaw dropping for having no better way to describe this..............
but........
even enjoying a newly re-discovered young body for couple of month you find yourself slowly but steadily returning to the same "old you"... your old habits (same as before the experiment) coming back, your old stiffness coming back and most importantly, old limiting negative thoughts ! After 2 months enjoying "new young you" , you are back again to the same "old you"...
Why?
Though it is possible to change physical body , it is much harder to change subconscious beliefs about your age... this belief was not gone and it is "returning to balance" so to speak...
Does it mean it is not possible? No, but it means that changing subconscious beliefs is much higher goal to achieve compared even to making your body 20 years younger!
in the end -

changing the subconscious "me" is harder, yet even more rewarding and more important than changing the body.........

[TheresaRomero]

With respect for the writer, I do see some limiting beliefs in what you have written, which it appears that you belief are not beliefs, but facts.  "All of the powers of your inner self are set into activation as a result of your conscious beliefs. You have lost a sense of responsibility for your conscious thoughts because you have been taught that it is not what forms your life. You have been taught that regardless of your beliefs you are terrorized by unconscious conditioning. And as long as you hold that conscious belief you will experience it as reality."

[Vladimir]

I didn't quite understand Theresa which of my beliefs you talked about... may be you can clarify by showing example of a limiting belief in my experiment I wrote about or in it's aftermath ? The immediate result of experiment is obviously an observed "fact" which I draw conclusion from, same with a long term result ... but starting the experiment I did rely on my belief in Yoga that I can change my body and I did...
so which is my "limiting" belief ?

[Deb]

I keep bringing up Joe Dispenza, but to me he's a current 'speaker,' if you will, who is teaching people how to attain what Seth teaches in his books. He doesn't name Seth specifically, but instead cites medical/scientific research because he feels science is the most widely accepted authority these days. He wants to reach the broadest audience possible.

A lot of sick and injured people gravitate to his workshops and some of them overcome their illnesses by changing their beliefs. Sometimes instantly. Others do not, and there's also a percentage of the success stories that backslide after a while (as Vladimir mentioned). Joe documents and reports all of this. But... there are those people that can virtually 'flick a switch' on their beliefs and instantly change their lives or health. His focus is not only on improving physical conditions, that is only a small part of the broad spectrum of changes people want in their lives. Finances, success, employment, family, romantic partner... and no doubt physical aging. Endless possibilities.

I read a book last year called Quantum Change. It was a collection of stories from people that had an epiphany that changed their lives—in a instant. A variety of circumstances were catalysts for the epiphanies, yet in some cases there was no explanation at all, it just happened, came out of no where. A revelation came to them and they changed, NO turning back.

So, as far as changing the subconscious self being harder... that would depend on the person and their beliefs. If I believe something is going to be hard to do, it will be. So  our beliefs about our beliefs should also be examined. "Whether you believe you can do a thing or not, you are right." Henry Ford 

It is 100% about beliefs. No question about the rewards, however.

[Vladimir]

This is a very important pointer Deb:

as far as changing the subconscious self being harder... that would depend on the person and their beliefs.

yet it is still not complete... add to it more dependency variables: how deep the subconscious belief is and how dramatic the change is that person is ready for ...
Example: to switch from meat eater which I was accustomed to since childhood to a complete vegetarian took me surprisingly short time I did not even expect to happen ( I thought at that time it is impossible)! Yet to stay in a new body which I already acquired after the experiment and enjoyed for some time - did not last...
Why one "unexpected" change stayed forever (30 years now) yet another did not last?
Another question: what exactly do we mean by "conscious belief" ?
I could hardly belief I could become vegetarian, yet I became! Can I call it "conscious belief" if I actually only hoped but no more than that? And what is about my belief in simply keeping the body I already had and been surprised when I lost it - which one was "conscious belief"? The first or the second?

The reason for confusion is this: we only know about our belief which we are aware of. Those we call "conscious belief" because we know about them... Yet, like in my experiment, the returning to the "old me" was driven also by a belief but this one was subconscious - that's why I did not expect it to happen....

The confusion comes from this: When Seth speaks about "conscious beliefs" he speaks about beliefs which we HAVE TO MAKE CONSCIOUS - this is a work to do. If the heaviness of the subconscious belief overcome the conscious ones (the known ones) - we get unexpected results...
Remedy?  - examine your mind and make all your beliefs which drive your life conscious. Only when they become conscious, then we can change them. Until then they are source of surprises .

[gitam2]

I feel that people vary in their ability to change aspects of their lives, such as the age we feel. Some things are easy or easier for some people to change some things may be difficult to change. That is my experience. In terms of aging, this one is relatively easy for me. I feel pretty much in control of my health and body and believe that I don't have to age in the way our culture promotes. I have a healthy diet, do yoga, and other good things for my body as well.
Some things are much more difficult for me to change the way I would like them. I believe that we chose many or all of our life circumstances before we are born and actually designed and "built" our physical bodies (as Seth has said, I'm paraphrasing here). So I believe that the things that are or may be very difficult to change could be related to the particular challenges or lessons we chose to learn in this incarnation. So for some of us the body and aging can be our most challenging issue and for others, not.

I know in discussions such as these that language and word choice can be tricky. I am careful with using the word "subconscious" because to me this has connotations of older psychology models that I don't fully believe in. I choose to believe what Seth said about this subject, again I paraphrase, that ultimately nothing in our psyche is hidden from us. To me this in an empowering perspective that gives me hope and frees me from the fear of deeply buried subconscious motives or impulses that are probably not possible to change. And I realize that choosing to believe what Seth said about this is a choice and a belief I chose to accept. I do feel that I have a strong intuitive sense in the validity of the Seth material. I also find all of the readings I have done of the Seth material has an internal consistency, i.e. I can't remember any seeing any conflicting information. So generally, I choose to believe what Seth said. 

In the areas where I'm still looking for change its true that I have given years of positive affirmations, have made some change, but I still have some of the same basic challenges. So there must be some hidden beliefs in there (my psyche) conflicting with the positive affirmations, which are still influencing the outcome in my life. I continue to learn what a belief really is. I like the definition that Abraham (Hicks) gives, "A belief is just a thought you keep thinking". And I agree with Vladimir that I must still have some hidden (though I just don't label them as subconscious) beliefs that are conflicting with my conscious ones, in certain areas. 

[Vladimir]

Gitam, your affirmative attitude is encouraging... not only for you but for others too...  I love it but  I myself see "only" 90%  consistency in Seth
May be you can help me:
how do you reconcile your obvious experience of "hidden beliefs"  with Seth' words:
"that ultimately nothing in your psyche is hidden from you" (It is from "the Nature of Personal Reality") ?
Another topic is adjacent to above: he said "you can change most of your personality within a reasonable limits" (highlight is mine) which simply means - not everything is possible...
How do I know those limits? Who defined them if not me (my ultimate Self)? If it is me, why can;t I change them? For ex.  I have certain creative goals in my life for which I might need a productive life until 120 - is it over those limits or still within? (Notice - I am not about "longer life" here , I don;t care about that, I am about "Value Fulfillment" which I care very much and if I fail in my project, I'd consider my life a waste...)

... my other main book gives me 100% consistency but it is somewhat different view of Life.

[Vladimir]

BTW, using the word "subconscious" simply means "hidden" from your awareness ("below conscious")... which is everybody's experience as you know. It is easy to drop Sigmund Freud's theory built around it making it into the modern psychology's dogma, and the word could be recycled to it's original meaning 
Carl Jung was also using this word for it's original meaning (in his "The Undiscovered Self") but he did not share Freud's value given to it.

[Deb]

The confusion comes from this: When Seth speaks about "conscious beliefs" he speaks about beliefs which we HAVE TO MAKE CONSCIOUS - this is a work to do.

Agreed, there's no question there is work to do. All the Seth exercises... meditation... not only digging deep but WIDE as well. The thing with conscious beliefs (or, I prefer to call them "obvious" beliefs) is they may not be all the beliefs involved with a certain situation. There are often peripheral/less obvious beliefs that we "don't see" because we're focused on the obvious one(s). My analogy: in darkness we have better peripheral vision than looking at something directly.

I think this is probably why some things are easier to change than others: the smaller things we want to change in our lives may have less beliefs attached to them. For example, someone is suffering from a chronic illness and they want it to go away.  A person is told they are sick, doctors say there is no cure for what they have, only treatment to make it more bearable. Basic, obvious questions: Do I believe I am sick? Do I believe I have a specific illness? Do I believe the doctors (truth, faith in science, current society beliefs)? Do I accept/believe there is no cure?

Someone working to change these beliefs, based on Seth's teachings that we make ALL of our reality, including illness, so therefore can change ALL of it, will hopefully recover. But, self-questions also include:  Do I believe in my body's ability to heal itself? Do I believe my beliefs make my reality? Do I believe I made myself sick, therefore can make myself recover? Less obvious: Why did I bring this illness on myself/ How do I feel about myself/Am I punishing myself for something? Do I identify with this illness as a part of myself, my personality? Could I believe I am I getting any benefits from having this illness (feeling special, extra attention, playing a role, validating a "why me" attitude)? That last question, unexplored, can throw a monkey wrench into complete recovery. And yes, it could be a pre-existence choice, maybe for training in belief work and personal creation. More questions are possible. I think AbrahamHicks had a tool for this, I'll look for it.

The thing with age is that we are not only dealing with our beliefs/society's beliefs, we are also dealing with natural laws of our current existence. I know I've quoted this before. Our bodies do age/change (as certainly as they grow from zygote to adulthood) and eventually die, it's up to us how that happens:

• (9:53.) Again, in our material on suffering (see the 895th session, for instance), I mentioned that illness serves purposes—that it has a face-saving quality in your society—so here I am speaking of the body's own abilities. In that light, the senses do not fade. Age alone never brought about any loss of physical agility, or of mental ability, or of desire. Death must come to every living person, yet the time and the means are basically up to each individual.

• In your society age has almost been considered a dishonorable state. Beliefs about the dishonor of age often cause people to make the decision—sometimes quite consciously—to bring their own lives to an end before the so-called threshold is reached. Whenever, however, the species needs the accumulated experience of its own older members, that situation is almost instantly reversed and people live longer.

—DEaVF1 Chapter 5: Session 902, February 20, 1980

Another topic is adjacent to above: he said "you can change most of your personality within a reasonable limits" (highlight is mine) which simply means - not everything is possible...

Any chance you can locate that quote? If not, I'll continue to look for it. Was Seth referring to personality, or maybe something related to the 'terms and conditions' of our current construct?

This is a great tool (link below). You can limit () your search results by typing key words into the box and then clicking on the current book in the list (in this case NoPR).

http://search.sethtalks.com

[Vladimir]

I'd need to look for the quote, I quoted from my head... but it was mentioned few times - Seth actually repeats it but never elaborates when/how the limits get established...
The quote definitely was in "The Magical Approach" (probably few times) and in "The Nature of Personal Reality"
...
I think, some time ago I got the answer to the above but, as I was in meditative state, I am still working out to understand by my "usual" mind and to put to practice.

BTW: in those two books I put a lot of tabs and markers to easily find all I need ....
the result? I cannot find any quote now because almost every page is tabbed and marked 

[Deb]

I cannot find any quote now because almost every page is tabbed and marked       

I have the same problem, lol.

I forgot to mention I got a book from the library, The Telomere Effect, A Revolutionary Approach to Living Younger, Healthier, Longer (2017) by Elizabeth Blackburn PhD and Elissa Epel PhD. The latest scientific research on the reasons some people age better than others. It's very quick and easy reading, nicely written. Part II Your Cells are Listening to Your Thoughts... includes things like how we react to stress, mindfulness, benefits of meditation, yoga, how our personality influences our stress responses, interesting stuff. Not all of it fits with Seth, but I was pleasantly surprised at how the authors stress that our thinking (perception) affects our bodies.

[Batfan007]

I cannot find any quote now because almost every page is tabbed and marked       

I have the same problem, lol.

I forgot to mention I got a book from the library, The Telomere Effect, A Revolutionary Approach to Living Younger, Healthier, Longer (2017) by Elizabeth Blackburn PhD and Elissa Epel PhD. The latest scientific research on the reasons some people age better than others. It's very quick and easy reading, nicely written. Part II Your Cells are Listening to Your Thoughts... includes things like how we react to stress, mindfulness, benefits of meditation, yoga, how our personality influences our stress responses, interesting stuff. Not all of it fits with Seth, but I was pleasantly surprised at how the authors stress that our thinking (perception) affects our bodies.

Might give that one a read just for fun.
Even though I just browsed the contents and its saying what I already know - keep stress low, exercise enough but not too much, don't prematurely age from having you know lots and lots of high stress levels and bad habits and of course, ATTITUDE! / Outlook on life.

[gitam2]

how do you reconcile your obvious experience of "hidden beliefs"  with Seth' words:
"that ultimately nothing in your psyche is hidden from you" (It is from "the Nature of Personal Reality") ?
Another topic is adjacent to above: he said "you can change most of your personality within a reasonable limits" (highlight is mine) which simply means - not everything is possible...
How do I know those limits? Who defined them if not me (my ultimate Self)? If it is me, why can;t I change them?

[gitam2]

I'm answering Vladimir's question, still getting used to posting here!
Re "hidden beliefs", I'm surely no expert in seeing all of my hidden beliefs and resolving conflicting beliefs. I feel this may be a lifetime process of learning. I like what Seth said about bridge beliefs, I think this is in NOPR book. Seth often has said (says? since there is no time  ) that consciousness has no limits and all boundaries to consciousness are arbitrary. If our consciousness is unlimited then we could be able to see all of our hidden beliefs. To me this is more food for thought about the challenges of life that we have chosen. I feel that we must have challenge in our lives to really push ourselves forward, and to grow in value fulfillment, which I agree is very important. I like Seth's concept of value fulfillment as a purpose in our human lives. We designed our challenges to continually push us forward to value fulfillment. If we were given everything, what challenge would there be? If we had no contrast in our lives, how would we see anything? If there are no lows, how can we appreciate the highs, or even know what high is? (rhetorical questions)

I'm just saying here that I am learning as much as anyone else in this incarnation. I like the idea of setting a strong intention for my learning to be easeful and even fun, this can take some of the sting out of life. And I can still grow in value fulfillment, and again, I am constantly learning how to do this.   

[Vladimir]

to encourage @gitam2 and also many others on this path I want to recommend all of you to get and watch the classic episode from immortal "Twilight Zone" series by Rod Serling
It is called " A Nice Place to Visit" Episode 28, Apr.15, 1960
If any of you are as lucky as I am to have a whole collection DVD, this episode in disk #1.
It explains many of Seth teachings even though in a form of a good entertainment! Acting is superb, seems as the main actor well understands the philosophy of life!

If you do, those of you who never watched it will thank me for this pointer 

[Deb]

If we had no contrast in our lives, how would we see anything? If there are no lows, how can we appreciate the highs, or even know what high is? (rhetorical questions)

Rhetorical to you, but great points to me. And yes, I too believe this is lifetime process of learning. That's why most of us are here.

Vladimir's Twilight Zone was a fun example, I loved that show. Of course TZ always added that twist/life lesson/moral at the very end. I found the episode on the Internet—nice quality video and the title makes perfect sense. Pip would make a good Seth, white suit and all.

PS to gitam2 or anyone else: if you have questions about how to do things on the forum, feel free to PM or email me. I'd be glad to answer any questions.

[Vladimir]

For those who watched it -
did you FEEL that - how terrified Pip was when he realized that from now on he will always know everything in advance ?  no surprises, no unknown...  This was indeed "ANOTHER PLACE"!
For such individuals like me (who wants to know EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW) - this should be watched on a regular basis....
And I do...

[gitam2]

Thanks for the Twilight Zone episode! I watched most of it and I really appreciate the wisdom of the episode, its very deep. We do need contrast in our world or else life would not have much meaning. This episode reminds me of a time in my life where I thought I had mostly everything and it turned into a kind of "hell" or a golden cage, I called it. I've heard it said that if and as we get so good at manifesting things then we may manifest too much and be burdened by our manifestations. This can and does happen to people. So this episode puts things into perspective for me and reminds me to understand (appreciate?) the challenges of my life because they are helping me grow and to see new vistas.

Also, I saw the Twilight Zone as a kid. Its good for me to see this episode as an adult and reflect back on my childhood days. Days which according to Seth, still exist. As I watched this episode, courtesy of our internet accessibility, I felt a comfort that there were some wise people around those days as I was growing up. So in a sense watching this episode helped me change my past into a more benign past. I can just feel myself as a child learning from episodes like this (there was also some great wisdom in Star Trek episodes) and feeling a bit more comforted, a bit stronger. This is happening in the present, so its changing my present self as well, and my future self. Selves which are really strongly related, if not the same.

[Vladimir]

@gitam2  What do you mean "I watched most of it" ? If you did not watch ALL of it to the last word, you haven't seen it...

[Deb]

"If you desperately try to remain young, it is usually to hide your own beliefs about age, and to negate all of those emotions connected with it. (Pause.) Whenever you refuse to accept the reality of your creaturehood, you also reject aspects of your spirit. The body exists in the world of space and time. The experiences you may encounter in your sixties are as necessary as those in your twenties. Your changing image is supposed to tell you something. When you pretend alterations do not occur you block both biological and spiritual messages.

"To refute your reality in time, therefore, results in your being stuck in time and obsessed by it. Accepting your integrity in time allows the body to function until its natural end, in good condition, free from those distorted, invisible concepts about age. If you believe that youth is the ideal and struggle for it while simultaneously believing that old age must involve infirmities, then you cause an unnecessary dilemma, and hasten aging according to the negative aspects of your mind."

—NoPR Chapter 11: Session 644, February 28, 1973

"The body is equipped, ideally again now, to rid itself of any diseases, and to maintain its stability into what you would call advanced old age, with only a gradual overall change. At its best, however, the change would bring about spiritual alterations. When you leave for a vacation, for example, you close down your house. In these ideal terms, death would involve a closing down of your [physical] house; it would not be crumbling about you."

UR2, Session 708 Sept. 30, 1974

I added the italics, because I just love that analogy. Seth is the best.