The Early Days of Seth/The Seth Material

[usmaak]

I made a project out of reading all of the Seth books and I finished that a couple of years ago.  I haven't read any since and decided recently that I am going to start from the beginning and read it all over again.  I started with The Seth Material, even though it's technically not part of the series.

I just finished the seance chapter (chapter 3) and found parts of it to be a bit strange.  I read it a couple of times and the "personality" that came out as Seth and caused all of the changes in Jane's body was just off.  There was nothing at all about it that was Seth like.  It seemed, to me at least, to be a little bit aggressive and boastful when the Seth we all know from the books is nothing like that at all.  Jane says, "When Seth took over, his confidence knocked all other ideas or doubts from my mind." yet I didn't see this as confidence.  It was just... strange.  That and Seth repeatedly calls Jane by her actual name and not Rubert.

I realize that Seth was able to come through because of arrangements between Seth and Jane but this felt forced and almost like possession.  If I was Jane and this happened to me, I'd have run in the opposite direction and never looked back.  There just didn't seem to be any real reason for it and it was out of character with the rest of the material.

[Sena]

I just finished the seance chapter (chapter 3) and found parts of it to be a bit strange.  I read it a couple of times and the "personality" that came out as Seth and caused all of the changes in Jane's body was just off.  There was nothing at all about it that was Seth like.  It seemed, to me at least, to be a little bit aggressive and boastful when the Seth we all know from the books is nothing like that at all.

usmaak, thanks for your interesting post. The fact is that Seth used Jane's brain to communicate with our world. The first few times this happened must have been shocking for Jane and Rob. There is no way  it could not have been shocking.

The big ethical question is whether Jane exercised her free will to fully consent to Seth using her brain in this way. If she did NOT consent that would be very ominous, and brings to mind "demonic possession" in Christian terminology. The following quote from the book indicates that Jane gave her full consent, and therefore it was NOT a case of possession:

"Far from looking for Seth in every corner, I guarded my mental integrity with all the determination of my nature. Then I felt silly, because Seth made absolutely no attempt to "invade" my normal working day. Worse, I felt that he was amused but understanding, and felt that my efforts, if basically unnecessary, were still important for my peace of mind. Still, I was never aware of new developments until they actually occurred spontaneously, and to my own surprise. If we thought that Seth "came through" as himself in the last sessions, we had a lot to learn in the next one, when Seth's own, more powerful voice suddenly emerged." (from "The Seth Material" by Jane Roberts)

https://amzn.eu/a9spitD

[usmaak]

I just finished the seance chapter (chapter 3) and found parts of it to be a bit strange.  I read it a couple of times and the "personality" that came out as Seth and caused all of the changes in Jane's body was just off.  There was nothing at all about it that was Seth like.  It seemed, to me at least, to be a little bit aggressive and boastful when the Seth we all know from the books is nothing like that at all.

usmaak, thanks for your interesting post. The fact is that Seth used Jane's brain to communicate with our world. The first few times this happened must have been shocking for Jane and Rob. There is no way  it could not have been shocking.

The big ethical question is whether Jane exercised her free will to fully consent to Seth using her brain in this way. If she did NOT consent that would be very ominous, and brings to mind "demonic possession" in Christian terminology. The following quote from the book indicates that Jane gave her full consent, and therefore it was NOT a case of possession:

"Far from looking for Seth in every corner, I guarded my mental integrity with all the determination of my nature. Then I felt silly, because Seth made absolutely no attempt to "invade" my normal working day. Worse, I felt that he was amused but understanding, and felt that my efforts, if basically unnecessary, were still important for my peace of mind. Still, I was never aware of new developments until they actually occurred spontaneously, and to my own surprise. If we thought that Seth "came through" as himself in the last sessions, we had a lot to learn in the next one, when Seth's own, more powerful voice suddenly emerged." (from "The Seth Material" by Jane Roberts)

https://amzn.eu/a9spitD

I did see that.  My comment was more about how different this interaction was from every other interaction that they had with Seth. This, to me, didn't feel at all like Seth.  It was something different.  And while Jane did agree to working with Seth, this felt abrupt and forced.  I suppose that the fact that they didn't run in the opposite direction indicated that they were ok with how it went down.

[jbseth]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

Have you read any of "The Early Sessions" books, TES1 to TES9?

The reason that I'm asking is that I've found, that the information in these Early Sessions books really added a lot to my understanding of the entire Jane, Rob and Seth story.  In addition to this, there was a lot of information in these books that wasn't explained very well or wasn't even explained at all in "The Seth Material".

As I recall, the information that you are talking about was given in TES1.

-jbseth

[usmaak]

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

Have you read any of "The Early Sessions" books, TES1 to TES9?

The reason that I'm asking is that I've found, that the information in these Early Sessions books really added a lot to my understanding of the entire Jane, Rob and Seth story.  In addition to this, there was a lot of information in these books that wasn't explained very well or wasn't even explained at all in "The Seth Material".

As I recall, the information that you are talking about was given in TES1.

-jbseth

I have not read them.  Interesting though.  I'll have to take a look.

[Deb]

I just finished the seance chapter (chapter 3) and found parts of it to be a bit strange.

I remember reading that years ago and thinking if it was me I would have said, that's it, I'm out of here. Jane did at times look to psychologists to tell her if she was dealing with a full deck, and they seemed to think she was fine. Jane mentioned in the Village Voice interview that Estabrooks had said she was as sane as [unintelligible]... I need to go back and find that, see if it sounds like "anyone" or "me."

I agree the body-changing stuff did not feel right, Seth was not into parlor tricks and the fact that happened so early on is weird. Jane supposedly did agree to work with Seth in her lifetime pre-birth, so maybe her constitution was stronger than mine would be. There may have also been some key information left out. I also was surprised to recently find Jane was no stranger to unusual phenomena. https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=2319

The big ethical question is whether Jane exercised her free will to fully consent to Seth using her brain in this way.

I was just reading Paul Cunningham's "original" paper on The Origin of Seth, and there is a Seth quote (leaving out some parts) from Seth Materials, Chapter 16:

"I make no attempt to dominate Ruburt's life, nor indeed would I expect him to allow it... These sessions are scheduled, and therefore operate under certain controlled conditions. Ruburt's own personality is in no way threatened by them, and his ego has been carefully coddled and protected... Ruburt allows me to use the nervous system under highly controlled conditions. I am not given blanket permission to take over when I please, nor would I desire such an arrangement. I do depend on Ruburt's willingness to dissociate.... It is a phenomena in which he gives consent, and he could, at any time and in a split second, return his conscious attention upon his physical environment."

There were also times when Jane admitted to blocking Seth from coming through, so it seems she was in as much control as she wanted to be.

BTW I agree, The Early Sessions, and even the Early Class Sessions and Personal Sessions have a lot of interesting stuff in them. Sometimes you can find used copies of them on eBay or Amazon. And at the end of the year Rick Stack puts everything on sale, which is how I've been filling out my collection.

[jbseth]

It seemed, to me at least, to be a little bit aggressive and boastful when the Seth we all know from the books is nothing like that at all. Jane says, "When Seth took over, his confidence knocked all other ideas or doubts from my mind." yet I didn't see this as confidence.  It was just... strange.  That and Seth repeatedly calls Jane by her actual name and not Rubert.

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

Yes, I agree with you, this really doesn't sound a lot like the Seth that we have come to know. However there are some circumstances here that may account for this.

Out of curiosity, I went back and took a look at both, "The Seth Material" (SM) Chapter 3, and TES1 Sessions 1 to Session 12 and here's what I've discovered. The information in SM, Ch 3, primarily comes from TES1, Session 11.

This was only their 11th session, it was pretty early. In fact this wasn't really even a Seth session in terms of where Rob and Jane communicated with Seth and Rob took down the session notes. This wasn't even intended as a Seth session. Instead Jane, Rob and Bill Mcdonnell sat and held a séance. I believe that this was for Jane's ESP book. During this séance, Seth came through. The notes that are written for this séance / session were written by Rob at various times as memory served.

As noted by usmaak, during this 11th session, Seth didn't appear to call Rob, Joseph, or Jane, Ruburt, and this seems rather odd to me. However, after looking back through Sessions 1 to 12, it doesn't appear that Seth really had set up this practice with any consistency before Session 11. In Session 9, where Seth talks about the "York Beach couple", when he mentions Jane, he uses "Jane" and not "Ruburt" on at least four different occasions, and Ruburt didn't appear to be mentioned at all. Interestingly enough, he does refer to Rob as Joseph on one occasion in this session.

During Session 11, there were several comments that were made by Seth that seem to be rather uncharacteristic of him.


"You have no idea of how difficult this is for me, to reach out to your plane from mine, to perform these little tricks for you. If you want a demonstration you shall have it, silly as it is..."

"You didn't think I could do it, did you my lovelies?"


("For a first attempt I'm doing beautifully", Seth said. "What do you think of that? Take a good look..."

[...] "Frank Watts had a hand like that," *Seth said. "Just like that. Frank Watts was a fathead," he said with obvious satisfaction, even though Frank Watts was a personality fragment of Seth's own entity.

Rob even made a note of this, even though he does seem to believe that it was Seth.

[...] The dialogue, while unmistakably Seth, had the added fillips of an almost macabre wit and a biting sarcasm. Often Seth remarked upon our rather childish desire for demonstrations; yet when I asked him if he would rather we refrained from such requests in the future, he said he understood the desire, that it was natural, and that if he felt like it he would comply.




From the comments that he made, it does appear that Seth was rather annoyed with this whole thing.

"to perform these little tricks for you. If you want a demonstration you shall have it, silly as it is..."

"Often Seth remarked upon our rather childish desire for demonstrations;..."


I don't recall any other examples of this specific type of situation (where Seth felt he had to do tricks for Rob and Jane). There are however, several examples where Seth didn't hesitate to express his displeasure about something. Here are two examples.






TES1, Session 8:

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TES1, Session 26:

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It seems to me that many of the issues that occurred between Jane, Rob and Seth, in regards to their relationship with each other (for example the issues just mentioned in Sessions 8, 11 and 26) generally both occurred and were worked out sometime during the early part of their relationship. That is for the most part, these issues both occurred and were addressed during the first 510 sessions or so.  These are the sessions covered in the TES books 1- 9.  Some of these issues can be found in these books.

As a result of this, by the time that they began writing the "Seth" books ("Seth Speaks", NOPR, etc.) there weren't any major issues between the three of them and their relationship seemed rather harmonious.


-jbseth

[usmaak]

Thanks for putting the effort into this response.

Honestly that all seems kind of petty.  Because my focus has always been on the books starting with Seth Speaks, I didn't get to see any of that.  I think that this might actually be my first time through The Seth Material.

I expected an evolved being from another plane to behave less like that. He seems kind of like a spoiled bully in a way. 

[Sena]

I expected an evolved being from another plane to behave less like that. He seems kind of like a spoiled bully in a way

You may be interested in this quote from "The God of Jane":

"This state of perception has nothing to do with classical
pathological dissociation; and its products—Seth's five books—
display a highly developed intellect at work and give evidence of a
special kind of creativity. In those trance hours I "turn into some­
one else." At least I am not myself to myself; I become Seth, or a
part of what Seth is. I don't feel "possessed" or "invaded" during
sessions. I don't feel that some superspirit has "taken over" my
body. Instead it's as if I'm practicing some precise psychological art,
one that is ancient and poorly understood in our culture; or as if
I'm learning a psychological science that helps me map the con­
tours of consciousness itself. Not that I'm doing as well as I could at
this endeavor, but after all this time I'm finally examining the trance
view of reality and comparing it to the official views of science and
religion. To say the least, those views don't agree."

[jbseth]

Thanks for putting the effort into this response.

Honestly that all seems kind of petty. Because my focus has always been on the books starting with Seth Speaks, I didn't get to see any of that.  I think that this might actually be my first time through The Seth Material.

I expected an evolved being from another plane to behave less like that. He seems kind of like a spoiled bully in a way.

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

I read most of the "Seth" books and many of Jane's books before I ever read any of the TES books. Prior to reading these TES books, my understanding of Seth was that he was an amazing philosopher who had some fantastic ideas about all kinds of interesting topics.  Then many years later, I read the TES books, TES1 to TES9.  After reading these books, I came to an understanding that there was a lot more to Seth than I had previously understood.

Yes. I agree with you, some of the things that Seth said do seem to be petty. However, these types of situations were actually quite rare. The other thing that I learned about Seth from reading these TES books is this. He seemed to be very involved with trying to help Rob, Jane and their friends whenever he could. There were many times, when Seth showed up for them and did what he could to both help and counsel them in the best way that he knew how. What I learned from this was that Seth was not only a great philosopher, but he also seemed to be a really good friend, psychologist and counselor as well. This does show up in some of the "Seth" books but it seems to show up much more in the TES books.

Some of the other things that I learned from the TES books were these. In most of the "Seth" books, with the exception of Rob's notes, most of the information in the book was about Seth's ideas and philosophies. This was not true necessarily true for the TES books.

The individual sessions in the TES books seem to be an interesting mishmash of all kinds of various topics. Some of these had to do with Rob and Jane, their issues with their work, their parents, Rob's siblings, their friends, their need to take a vacation, their ESP experiments and a host of other things as well. There was also, a fair amount of "Seth" concepts and ideas that were presented here as well.  Furthermore, while some of this "Seth" information was also discussed in some of the other books, there was also some that never appeared to make it into any other book (I suppose, because it was already discussed here in these books).

I didn't want to leave you with the impression that Seth was sometimes just a bully, because for the most part, this type of thing rarely ever occurred. On the other hand there were in fact very many occasions where he showed up, big time, as a friend and tried to help Rob, Jane and their friends.


-jbseth

[usmaak]

I read most of the "Seth" books and many of Jane's books before I ever read any of the TES books. Prior to reading these TES books, my understanding of Seth was that he was an amazing philosopher who had some fantastic ideas about all kinds of interesting topics.  Then many years later, I read the TES books, TES1 to TES9.  After reading these books, I came to an understanding that there was a lot more to Seth than I had previously understood.

That's curious.  It sounds like the early sessions books, in a way, redefine Seth.  I wonder why they'd change it so much be not including material like that.

[LarryH]

It sounds like the early sessions books, in a way, redefine Seth.  I wonder why they'd change it so much be not including material like that.

Remember that the early sessions were not intended by Seth as "book dictation". The fact that they ever got in books was a decision made by Rob. So they are not organized or themed in a manner typical of the Seth-dictated books. But by and large, the topics in the early sessions and the personal sessions were probably repeated in the Seth-dictated books unless the topics simply did not fit the themes of those books. Also, the early sessions were likely more prone to distortion, as Seth worked out the kinks in channeling through Jane.