Linear time on the astral

[Bora137]

Hi all

Seth here is talking about the steps that take place immediately after death. In this section about the strength of emotions experienced during the self-examination/life review he says it is really helpful to have a friend on hand for support -

"Then there is a period of self-examination, a rendering of accounts, so to speak, in which they are able to view their entire performance, their abilities and weak points and to decide whether or not they will return to physical existence.

(10:55.) Any given individual may experience any of these stages, you see; except for the self-examination, many may be sidestepped entirely. Since the emotions are so important, it is of great benefit if friends are waiting for you. In many instances, however, these friends have progressed to other stages of activity, and often a guide will take the guise of a friend for a while, so that you will feel more confident."

—SS Chapter 9: Session 536, June 22, 1970

What I think is interesting here is the absence of many friends because they have progressed to other stages of activity. I think this is important because we know afterlife takes place in time/space not our hallucinatory space/time. In time/space all points in time are supposed to be accessible, everything happens in one great 'now' and all events are accessible. So how is it possible that friends are otherwise disposed? Can't they just access the required time to support their friend going through life review when they are not so busy? It seems not. You have to conclude then there is some form of linear time/progression happening on the astral plane.

[Sena]

"Then there is a period of self-examination, a rendering of accounts, so to speak, in which they are able to view their entire performance, their abilities and weak points and to decide whether or not they will return to physical existence.

(10:55.) Any given individual may experience any of these stages, you see; except for the self-examination, many may be sidestepped entirely.

Bora, thanks for another interesting topic. I was hoping that I could sidestep the self-examination, but that does not seem to be possible!. It is significant that it is a self-examination, and not someone else judging you.

[Bora137]

Yes, doesn't look like we get a choice which in itself is interesting. We go through life generally believing it is somewhat dog eat dog and to an extent we might justify our behaviour based on this assumption. There is no good or bad but when asked to watch our life back in an environment of complete love and acceptance we might feel we could of done better I know I will.

But what really interested me was the stages which evidence some sort of temporal framework, suggesting time might have a role to play still after death ☠️

[s1nbad]

I was wondering the exact same after reading that chapter this morning. It is a paradox, from our viewpoint at least, to have true simultaneity and any kind of progression. This is probably one of those things that is difficult for personalities focused in the physical to grasp. Channelings from LLResearch might illuminate here, Ra and other entities have spoken in detail about time/space and space/time, and it may be in time/space in which progression occurs, simultaneously! I do vaguely recall some mention of higher planes having their own 'pseudo-time', but I'll have to go through the transcripts again to confirm.

EDIT:
Just came across a relevant quote in The Seth Material, Chapter 22 Session 589
"In the terms of which I am speaking for your benefit, their present might, for example, include the life and death of your planet in a moment of their 'time'." - Seth

[Sena]

EDIT:
Just came across a relevant quote in The Seth Material, Chapter 22 Session 589
"In the terms of which I am speaking for your benefit, their present might, for example, include the life and death of your planet in a moment of their 'time'." - Seth

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Thanks for finding this interesting quote, which is in fact from Seth Speaks:

"All of existence and consciousness is interwoven. Only when you think of the soul as something different, separate, and therefore closed, are you led to consider a separate god — a personality that seems to be apart from creation. All That Is is a part of creation, but more than what creation is. There are pyramid gestalts of being impossible to describe, whose awareness includes knowledge and experience of what would seem to be to you a vast number of other realities. In the terms of which I am speaking for your benefit, their present might, for example, include the life and death of your planet in a moment of their "time." Seth Two's existence is at the outside fringes of one such galaxy of consciousness" (from "Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts)

Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/3Dp9g6y

[s1nbad]

Greetings Sena, thank you for the correction.

Some more on this, from The Early Sessions, Book 2, Session 44:


Now nevertheless the dream world, the mind and the reality universe do
exist. They exist in a climate that we will call the value climate of psychological
reality. This is the medium. This takes the place of what you call space. This
value climate of psychological reality is a quality which makes all existences and
consciousness possible. It is one of the most powerful principles behind or within
the vitality that itself composes from itself all other phenomena.

One of the main attributes of this value climate is spontaneity, that shows
itself in the existence of the only sort of time that has any real meaning, that of
the spacious present.

The spacious present does not contradict the existence of durability, but
durability does not imply the existence of a future as you conceive it. Now this
may appear contradictory, but later I hope that you will understand this more
clearly. The spacious present, while existing spontaneously, while happening
simultaneously, still contains within it qualities of duration.

An idea is not itself aware of past, present and future for example, and yet
having no experience with present, past and future, it still endures. Nor does the
duration involved in the spacious present in any way involve a suspension in
terms of, for example, growth forbidden to achieve maturity.

Now the so-called laws of your camouflage universe do not apply to the
inner universe. They do not even apply to other camouflage planes. However,
the laws of the inner universe apply to all camouflage universes, and all consciousness
on any plane must follow the basic laws of the inner universe. Some of these basic laws
have counterparts known and accepted on various camouflage planes. There are various
manifestations of these laws and various names given to them.

The second law of the inner universe is energy transformation. This
occurs constantly. Energy transformation and value fulfillment, all existing within the
spacious present, add up to a durability that is at the same time spontaneous.
Energy transformation and value fulfillment add up to a durability that is simultaneous.

You may see what we are getting into here. Our third law is spontaneity,
and despite all appearances of beginning and end, despite all appearances of
death and decay, all consciousness exists in the spacious present, in a spontaneous manner,
in simultaneous harmony, and yet within the spacious present there is also durability.

I want to make one note here, that again experience in the use of psychological time will
bring you close to an understanding of the value climate of psychological reality, for obvious reasons. Psychological time indeed is a part of this climate as it appears in fairly uncamouflaged form in your own universe. You can get the feel of it.
- Seth

So it appears that there *is* duration even when you are not focused in physical reality, and even in the face of true simultaneity. But the existence of duration alone does not imply the existence of a future. Very interesting.

[Tob]

Seth on the various types of telepathy and their roles in the formation of matter:


Session 121:

"On its simplest level, and this is hardly simple, but on its most basic level, what you call telepathy operates in the following manner. Telepathy on this level is the intangible, nonmaterial communication of inner energy, or inside energy, to the physical materialization of itself within the physical field. This elementary telepathy is not the communication of thought as such, but is the communication of intent, desire and purpose. It is therefore the communication of inner energy to various still-forming aspects of itself, a blazing, so to speak, of invisible paths or bridges. And at the same time the laying down of these intangible paths serve as the inner framework over which or upon which future physical lines or structures will be laid.

No physical communication systems, such as nerves and so forth, are accomplished before these invisible inner energy telepathic structures are first set forth, for these impress within the unformed physical structures the habits and ways which the physical structures will then follow; and these inside telepathic lines continue to exist within the physical structures after they are completed, and for a while after the physical structures have been broken down.
 
I have until this point said very little about the so-called astral body. For one thing I dislike the term. For another, I did not want to discuss such points until I had first prepared you for not only their existence, but their purpose and logic. (Many sessions ago Seth stated he did not like the term, astral body, but said nothing else about it. See the 40th session, [in Volume 1].) You can perhaps now see where this so-called astral body has its origin and purpose. It is actually the intangible but actual framework formed by inner energy, about whose lines or, actually, reference points, the physical framework is constructed.
 
Now. This sort of elementary telepathy has existed as a necessity since the first formation of inner energy into matter. Some of our past sessions, particularly those explaining the initial appearance of matter, will set you clear, and you will see that the explanations I gave you then would have to involve such elementary telepathic communication between cells. As inner energy forms more complicated gestalts through the processes that I have earlier explained, then inner energy continues its communication with the physical matter that it creates about it. When inner energy desires to construct a more complicated gestalt, then it must telepathically communicate this intent and purpose through the matter which it collects about itself, forming a more complicated inner telepathic pattern first, that can then be filled in with physical matter.

The manners in which telepathy operates are difficult to explain because of the divergence of definition held by the ego and by the inner self of any given individual. To the human being it must appear that telepathy is a mental or psychic communication occurring between two or more entirely separate selves. The ego, you see, has one definition for the self, and its own idea of the limitations of itself. The ego considers itself the self, and considers anything outside of its self as being either nonself or another such separate identity, and so the individual man is led to believe that telepathy is basically a communication between two or more basically alone, separate and aloof selves.

Telepathy does not operate at the level of the ego, although its actions may protrude into the domain of the ego. Telepathy operates within the inner self, within various levels, different levels of the subconscious, where the ideas of separation and limitations of self are not nearly so limiting. The type of telepathy which is most commonly thought of as telepathy is of course not the elemental type of which I spoke earlier, but a different variety. This particular, more advanced telepathy could not and did not occur in its most complicated form until the development within your plane of psychically developed personalities. This development involved separations and concentrations of energy into self-conscious identities. This development was an advancement, yet this advancement led also to a separation and objectifying of consciousness, into dual segments of subject and object."

[Tob]

Seth on how our experiences and our personal individualities are preserved after the transition:

Session 126:

"In a most ingenious manner, then, all of these systems, while individual, are portions of one unified reality. The outer senses cannot perceive the unity. The outer senses can only perceive the apparent diversity within the physical system alone, for the outer senses do not perceive directly any other system but the physical one. The inner senses can be thought of as transformers, where various kinds of data is sent to proper channels within the personality, channels which bypass ordinary physical channels. They then can exist side by side.

There are various reasons, which I have not yet given you, that allow for the traveling of the self through physical space and time. These reasons have to do with the electric actuality of the inner self, and with that counterpart of the physical body which exists within the electric field.

Personal identity, the basic "I", is a product of the subconscious, and as such it exists as an actuality within the electric field; because of this it is basically independent of the physical field, held to it mainly by the ego. The ego directs the identity toward physical orientation. This is an important point. The ego does not exist within the electrical field. The ego is a product of the physical field, formed from physical birth on.

The inner identity and individuality, as you know, has its origins long before this. The inner self adopts an ego in order to allow manipulation within the physical universe, and yet part of the ego is composed of portions from the inner self, while the bulk of the ego is allowed to develop through physical heredity and environment. The breath of life, so to speak, is breathed into the ego by the inner self, but from that point on the ego is independent. (Jane now took a very long pause, rocking quietly with her eyes closed.)(...)
 
On the whole the systems operate together most efficiently. Even the electric reality of a dream is decoded, so that its effects are experienced not only by the brain, but in the furthest reaches of the most minute cells in the human body. Dream experiences long forgotten are forever contained as electrically coded within the cells of the physical body. If an effect is felt in any one portion of human experience, then you can be sure that such an effect is felt in all other possible ways, whether or not such an effect is immediately obvious. This is also an extremely important point to remember. (...)

Every effect of any kind, experienced by the human being, exists as a series of electrical signals and codes, that in themselves form a pattern that is an electrical pattern. They exist within the cells, or I should more properly say that the cells form about them. These electric coded signals then form electric counterparts of complete experience, as it has been felt by any given individual. It is, the pattern is, then independent of the physical system, while residing within it. In other words, each individual from birth on forms his own counterpart from built up, individual, continuous electric signals. At physical death his personality then exists in its complete form, and of course escapes the sort of ending that it would suffer if it were an integral part of the physical system. This electrical pattern is the personality, with all the experiences of its earthly time. It then can join or partake of the inner self.

In other words, though the ego was adopted originally by the inner self, and was a product of physical heredity and environment, it does not die; but its existence is changed from physical reality into electrical reality. It is still individual. No individuality is lost, but it becomes a part of the inner self, and its experiences are added to the total experience of the many personalities that have composed the inner self."

[Tob]

Seth on how our experiences and our personal individualities are preserved after the transition:

Session 126:

"In a most ingenious manner, then, all of these systems, while individual, are portions of one unified reality. The outer senses cannot perceive the unity. The outer senses can only perceive the apparent diversity within the physical system alone, for the outer senses do not perceive directly any other system but the physical one. The inner senses can be thought of as transformers, where various kinds of data is sent to proper channels within the personality, channels which bypass ordinary physical channels. They then can exist side by side.

There are various reasons, which I have not yet given you, that allow for the traveling of the self through physical space and time. These reasons have to do with the electric actuality of the inner self, and with that counterpart of the physical body which exists within the electric field.

Personal identity, the basic "I", is a product of the subconscious, and as such it exists as an actuality within the electric field; because of this it is basically independent of the physical field, held to it mainly by the ego. The ego directs the identity toward physical orientation. This is an important point. The ego does not exist within the electrical field. The ego is a product of the physical field, formed from physical birth on.

The inner identity and individuality, as you know, has its origins long before this. The inner self adopts an ego in order to allow manipulation within the physical universe, and yet part of the ego is composed of portions from the inner self, while the bulk of the ego is allowed to develop through physical heredity and environment. The breath of life, so to speak, is breathed into the ego by the inner self, but from that point on the ego is independent. (Jane now took a very long pause, rocking quietly with her eyes closed.)(...)
 
On the whole the systems operate together most efficiently. Even the electric reality of a dream is decoded, so that its effects are experienced not only by the brain, but in the furthest reaches of the most minute cells in the human body. Dream experiences long forgotten are forever contained as electrically coded within the cells of the physical body. If an effect is felt in any one portion of human experience, then you can be sure that such an effect is felt in all other possible ways, whether or not such an effect is immediately obvious. This is also an extremely important point to remember. (...)

Every effect of any kind, experienced by the human being, exists as a series of electrical signals and codes, that in themselves form a pattern that is an electrical pattern. They exist within the cells, or I should more properly say that the cells form about them. These electric coded signals then form electric counterparts of complete experience, as it has been felt by any given individual. It is, the pattern is, then independent of the physical system, while residing within it. In other words, each individual from birth on forms his own counterpart from built up, individual, continuous electric signals. At physical death his personality then exists in its complete form, and of course escapes the sort of ending that it would suffer if it were an integral part of the physical system. This electrical pattern is the personality, with all the experiences of its earthly time. It then can join or partake of the inner self.

In other words, though the ego was adopted originally by the inner self, and was a product of physical heredity and environment, it does not die; but its existence is changed from physical reality into electrical reality. It is still individual. No individuality is lost, but it becomes a part of the inner self, and its experiences are added to the total experience of the many personalities that have composed the inner self."

Session 128:

"Thoughts have shape in terms of intensity mass, though you cannot see their shape; your outer senses do not perceive it. You see within yourself the various shapes of dreams to a certain extent. You do not see the dream itself, for even here, after giving a dream reality, electrical existence, you must break it down into simpler terms so that you can perceive what you have indeed created. But thoughts have shapes, as do dreams. I use the word shape for simplicity's sake, but the electrical universe is composed of dimensions which are perceived by the inner self, for the inner self also has existence within the electrical universe. If all of this sounds farfetched, then remember that the shapes that you perceive meaningful, many other species within your own field cannot perceive at all. (...)

It follows that the whole self has an actual reality and existence within many fields beside the physical field. The brain, because of its purpose and its close connection to camouflage manipulation, does not have a primary existence within the electrical universe, although it has a secondary existence within it because of its connection to the purely electrical mind. The physical body is formed about its electrical counterpart, yet they are both intertwined in completely different dimensions. All the knowledge gained by the present ego is retained in electrical form, as is all experience so retained. The camouflage material will be discarded as a physical gestalt, as far as the individual is concerned. The matter of the physical body will simply be used in other gestalts, in the manner that I have explained in earlier sessions.

The idea image of the physical body is of course retained by the individual. The idea shape may be used or not used, according to when and in which manners the personality wishes to extend itself. It is no longer necessary for locomotion, and its senses, electrically coded now, are no longer necessary, since they were adopted to meet the demands of a particular field in which the personality no longer has any prime interest. In codified form these outer senses still exist, and with codified memory any sensuous or sensual data that has been experienced may be experienced again. And with some, though very few personalities, such experiences are indeed constantly played back, though of course not indefinitely. (Seth had something to say about psychic remembrance of earthly phenomenon as long ago as the 9th session, December 18,1963. See Volume 1, page 46.) (...)

Each and every thought and dream and experience that any human being has had exists as an individual, distinct electrical impulse of particular, unduplicated intensity. It exists not only isolated for example, or detached, but it exists as a part of the electrical pattern of that personality who originally created it. It is still a part of his electrical pattern, but it does also exist independently of him."
---------------------------------------

From the above I understand that every 'now-moment I-am-ness' is part of a larger and more comprehensive 'now-moment I-am-ness', but it does also exist forever 'in its own right'. Thus, no experience is ever lost and it is possible to plug in again and re-experience the quality of a specific 'now-moment I-am-ness' again and again. It is also possible to plug in to the 'now-moment I-am-ness' of timelines which are lived by personalities who do not belong to your entity. This is why 50 000 persons can claim to have been Cleopatra, while they were not.

I understand that after death the experiences of other life times are accessible and going to be processed like a book in a library. Once you read the book carefully you are certainly another person. Your knowledge has been enhanced considerably and your 'life' may have changed to a certain extent. But you will never become the author of that book, i.e. the one who wrote it in the first place. That is another incarnation. Another 'You' which is an independent part of the larger 'You' that you are.

You live one specific life, which is a chain of a huge, but finite number of single, static 'now-moments'. You create - and materialize - every single now-moment individually at the rate of Planck time. At the point of transition you call the accumulated amount of 'now-moments' your life. But the single moments continue to exist. I assume they may be used at any 'time' by other energies to continue 'sideways', starting energetically at one of these specific former 'now-moments'. In a way, this is also why Seth could claim that Jane Roberts 'is the Seth he was at an earlier time' (energetically). This is how 'infinity' in terms of probabilities may come in. The three or four variants of Robert Butts have nothing to do with an 'infinite number' of probable lives, even if their specific 'now moments' may have been chosen from a gigantic - and possibly infinite - database of available future 'now-moments', which were then materialized and turned into present 'now moments'. Three or four parallel lives don't constitute an infinite number, and never will.

[Sena]

The brain, because of its purpose and its close connection to camouflage manipulation, does not have a primary existence within the electrical universe, although it has a secondary existence within it because of its connection to the purely electrical mind.

Tob, thanks for highlighting these facts about the brain and the purely electrical mind.

"The physical body, in other words, exists as an electrical body that is not material, that has a peculiar mass but no weight, whose characteristics are apparent in terms of not varying shapes, but varying intensities and concentrations of electric force. In some respects there are differences. The mind, which is not physically represented in the material body, does exist electrically. The brain, which exists physically, is a part of the mind in the electric structure. The organs exist electrically. The skin does not exist within this electric counterpart, although the physical skin does contain electric force. Now. If you could see the body as it exists within the electric field, you would certainly not recognize it, for its shape would bear no resemblance to the physical shape as you know it. The electric counterpart to the physical body exists, then, as an identity formed by various electrical systems operating more or less as one. It is an electric reality in which most certainly even thoughts exist as actualities, ever-moving spheres of more or less independent electric systems." (from "The Early Sessions: Book 3 of The Seth Material", Session 122 by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

https://amzn.eu/6dFZZAs

[Tob]

The brain, because of its purpose and its close connection to camouflage manipulation, does not have a primary existence within the electrical universe, although it has a secondary existence within it because of its connection to the purely electrical mind.

Tob, thanks for highlighting these facts about the brain and the purely electrical mind.

"The physical body, in other words, exists as an electrical body that is not material, that has a peculiar mass but no weight, whose characteristics are apparent in terms of not varying shapes, but varying intensities and concentrations of electric force. In some respects there are differences. The mind, which is not physically represented in the material body, does exist electrically. The brain, which exists physically, is a part of the mind in the electric structure. The organs exist electrically. The skin does not exist within this electric counterpart, although the physical skin does contain electric force. Now. If you could see the body as it exists within the electric field, you would certainly not recognize it, for its shape would bear no resemblance to the physical shape as you know it. The electric counterpart to the physical body exists, then, as an identity formed by various electrical systems operating more or less as one. It is an electric reality in which most certainly even thoughts exist as actualities, ever-moving spheres of more or less independent electric systems." (from "The Early Sessions: Book 3 of The Seth Material", Session 122 by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

https://amzn.eu/6dFZZAs

Yes, a bit like the relationship between a video game on a computer screen and the underlying machine language. The 'real' thing is of course the machine language. The picture is a projection in 2d. Our projection is in 3d. And we are the projectors as well (and the scriptors, the directors, the actors, the designers of the stage and the background, and ... finally, the evaluators).

There is no need for any '-ism'. Systems theory is the best approach. There are units as small as 'pixels', and there are units that are more complex, such as an entire universe (Seth). Units and systems interact and create. They are conscious and eternal.

[Tob]

Seth on the issue of identity. A chair IS an identity, in that it is unique. The chair does not HAVE an identity. And we are all unique as well and so is every thought. It can never be duplicated. Nor can we.

Session 137:

"We will further consider this evening the nature of identities. In our earlier discussions concerning the nature of matter, we made it plain that each individual created any given material object, through use of the inner senses, and following certain rules which were mentioned. Since any materialization is in effect a mediation between what we may call an ideal which is, by nature, of itself not materialized, and a practical working perceivable symbol of the ideal, each materialization must be composed of some camouflage elements.

Within the physical field these perceivable symbols are composed of matter, which is a conglomeration of atoms and molecules. Each individual, creating, say, his version of any given chair, uses entirely different atoms and molecules in his subconscious construction of it. He sees or perceives only his own construction. A rereading of sessions dealing with the nature of matter will help you here. The chair created then by any given individual, and perceived by him, is an identity in that it exists at any given time, without any exact duplication. Basically, for any duplication to appear, the exact atoms and molecules would have to be used, and this is obviously impossible.

The chair is an identity, and yet at no given moment is it the same chair, for already the atoms and molecules that compose it have changed, and been replaced by others. This process is explained thoroughly also in the mentioned previous sessions. (Among others, see the 60th-65th sessions.)"

[strangerthings]

Why wait for self examination at the end?

We are unlimited no boundaries.

Revision. There are exercises to learn and invent for your own self, that examines what occured and how another perhaps really felt, and even to go to anyone at any point in time of your life, and revise it.

How would you do it differently?

It is your personal world you redeem as well. If its me self examining me, then I am lord of my world and judge because I make my own health wealth and woe.

This is one place Neville material helps me. Revision. The Seth material in combination is quite a source!

What you do in your spacious present, your point of power, your moment point, overwrites any past or future currently in play.

You bend.

I have a probable self I can share with who had made the other choice.

I can change my view point.

I can see previous great grand parents receiving resources and love that helps the later generations that would include me.

Its your imagination!
What do you want?



"A change of attitude, a new association, any of innumerable other actions, will automatically set up new electromagnetic connections, and break others. Now part of this we shall explain later, for these changes obviously affect both the future and the past. But the past, again, is continually changed by you, and by every individual. For basically you see, it is not something done and finished with, as is supposed."
—TES5 Session 224 January 17, 1966

[Sena]

"A change of attitude, a new association, any of innumerable other actions, will automatically set up new electromagnetic connections, and break others. Now part of this we shall explain later, for these changes obviously affect both the future and the past. But the past, again, is continually changed by you, and by every individual. For basically you see, it is not something done and finished with, as is supposed."
—TES5 Session 224 January 17, 1966

St, thanks for finding this quote. It seems relevant to me at this point in my life.

[strangerthings]

@Sena many blessings to you !
In whatever way they could be beneficial!

I have a 9 or better "rule". If what I am working on is 9 or better its a keeper. The way I feel about it.

A 9 on a scale of 1-10, 10 being the best.

Even if I am working on forming a new affirmation. Not doing it, but forming one out has to give me a 9 or better. For example: self hypnosis lol Ive gotta connect with it. With a mutual integrity especially with the past. Mutually beneficial.

Lol Ive had moments I dumbfounded myself with a new point of view that was already there of course, but my mud at the time just could not grasp whatever it was. Ahh those are fun lol