Astrology as scientific confirmation of Seth's ideas about the physical universe

[Sena]

Seth's ideas about the physical universe are totally contradicted by conventional modern science. Similarly, astrology is also rejected by modern science. If it can be shown that there is scientific evidence for astrology, that would also support Seth's ideas.

This quote from "The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events" is an example of Seth's ideas about the physical universe:

"The physical universe is the result of
idea construction, as Ruburt perceived in the experience mentioned in the
last session (at 11:10).
That perception was not the sort of official sense data recognized by
your sciences. Ruburt did not come to his recognition of the world's
mental source through reasoning. Neither could any ordinary physical
perception have given him that information. His consciousness left his
body — an event not even considered possible by many educated people.
Ruburt's consciousness merged, while still retaining its own individuality,
with the consciousness of the leaves outside his window, and with the
nail in the windowsill, and traveled outward and inward at the same time,
so that like a mental wind his consciousness traveled through other
psychological neighborhoods.
The origin of your universe is nonphysical, and each event, however
grand or minute, has its birth in the Framework 2 environment. Your
physical universe arose from that inner framework, then, and continues to
do so.
The power that fuels your thoughts has the same source. In a manner
of speaking the universe as you understand it, with all the events that it
includes, functions "automatically" in its important processes, as your
own body does."

I shall be looking into possible scientific evidence for astrology (not dogmatic mainstream science), and if I find anything relevant I shall post it on this thread.

What is astrology in a basic sense? It is the prediction of events in the life of human beings based on the observation of planets in relation to the stars. It does NOT mean that the events are caused by the movements of the planets. It is a correlation, not a causal relationship. If, as Seth says above, "each event, however grand or minute, has its birth in the Framework 2 environment", it is easy to imagine that the human event is produced to coincide with a certain position of the planets. Modern science cannot accept this because it assumes that everything in the universe happens according to mindless mechanical laws.

[jbseth]

Seth's ideas about the physical universe are totally contradicted by conventional modern science. Similarly, astrology is also rejected by modern science. If it can be shown that there is scientific evidence for astrology, that would also support Seth's ideas.

Hi Sena,

I have several problems with what you've written here.

I agree that Seth's ideas about the physical universe are totally contradicted by conventional modern science.  I also agree that astrology is also rejected by modern science.  However, I have an issue with your statement that, "If it can be shown that there is scientific evidence for astrology, that would also support Seth's ideas."


To me, this is kind of like saying:

"Seth's ideas about the physical universe are totally contradicted by conventional modern science. Similarly, the concept of "Santa Claus" is also rejected by modern science. If it can be shown that there is scientific evidence for "Santa Claus", that would also support Seth's ideas."



First of all, it doesn't appear to me that Seth actually supported a belief in astrology.

Secondly, I don't think that there is any scientific evidence for astrology. 

Thirdly, even if this was some scientific evidence for astrology, (which I don't think there is) I'm very doubtful that this would in any way support Seth's ideas about the physical universe. These are very different topics.



Were you perhaps trying to say something different?


-jbseth

[Sena]

Thirdly, even if this was some scientific evidence for astrology, (which I don't think there is) I'm very doubtful that this would in any way support Seth's ideas about the physical universe. These are very different topics.

jbseth, thanks for your comments. Could you give me some idea of how much knowledge of astrology you have. I agree that Seth made very few statements about astrology, but it seems to me that his reference to astrology which I quoted on another thread is a highly significant one:

"Now. Astrology, as it is thought of, and as it is taught, you see, represents but a vague shadow of something far different. Consciousness generally can be divided into certain characteristics, hardly the number, the small number, presently given to it, for example, in charts, the twelve houses. Now, that sort of thing is a dim shadow, in three-dimensional terms, dealing with one planet, of a much more vast system. And in that vast system there are this particular group of people, who are united by certain traits and similarities. ("Are there other such groups?") There are indeed. ("All right," Rob pursued, "say some speakers are Sumari, but might another group of speakers be of another family?") The speakers generally do not fall into any particular group. Do you follow me? There will be groups of speakers, within these large guilds. Now, I am using that term purposely." (from "The Personal Sessions: Book One of the Deleted Seth Material: Personal Seth Sessions 11/15/65 - 12/6/71" by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

https://amzn.eu/egMhTQD

"Astrology, as it is thought of, and as it is taught, you see, represents but a vague shadow of something far different." This statement is a clear indication that what Seth taught Jane and Rob was only a tiny proportion of his total knowledge. In all of Seth's teachings I feel that this is one of his most significant statements. He has not told us anything of what "something far different" is, but it seems to me that astrology is the the only clue we have to "something far different". How I interpret Seth is that he wanted us to work things out for ourselves, not slavishly memorize what is in the books.

There are two more references to astrology in the Personal Sessions you might be interested in:

"Now, there are some things that I will have to explain to you slowly. And the true answer to your question will take time. One Sumari is all Sumari. There are gradations, in those terms, within the Sumari alliances; therefore, everyone is not at the same level, if you follow me: it is an organization of affection, loyalty, and abilities; and there will be varying grades within their alliance. Now, everyone who was here last night was Sumari, and many who come to class, even for one time, are Sumari. ("But it's not only Sumari who come to class," Rob put in.) It is not indeed. I want to go into, and I will at a later date, the connections between this kind of reality and the astrology that is now popular." (from "The Personal Sessions: Book One of the Deleted Seth Material: Personal Seth Sessions 11/15/65 - 12/6/71" by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

https://amzn.eu/6FMo2MH

The following is one of Rob's notes in the book:

"(Break at 10:30. Jane came out of trance and told us that she knew Seth had said something about astrology because she had had a conceptual experience, which she simply couldn't put into words, involving the positions of the planets and the vastness behind their symbolism." (from "The Personal Sessions: Book One of the Deleted Seth Material: Personal Seth Sessions 11/15/65 - 12/6/71" by Jane Roberts, Robert Butts)

https://amzn.eu/fGgM32q

If you have any of the Personal Sessions books two to seven, I would be grateful if you would look them up for references to astrology.

[jbseth]

"Astrology, as it is thought of, and as it is taught, you see, represents but a vague shadow of something far different." This statement is a clear indication that what Seth taught Jane and Rob was only a tiny proportion of his total knowledge. In all of Seth's teachings I feel that this is one of his most significant statements. He has not told us anything of what "something far different" is, but it seems to me that astrology is the the only clue we have to "something far different". How I interpret Seth is that he wanted us to work things out for ourselves, not slavishly memorize what is in the books.

Hi Sena,

The sentence that you quote above about astrology representing a vague shadow of something far different, comes from TPS1:S598.

In TPS1, Session 598, prior to making this statement, Seth talks about the "families of consciousness". He talks about these groupings of consciousness where personalities come together for certain purposes. Then, after this, he starts talking about Sumari. Next, after talking about Sumari, Seth says the following:

Now. Astrology, as it is thought of, and as it is taught, you see, represents but a vague shadow of something far different. Consciousness generally can be divided into certain characteristics, hardly the number, the small number, presently given to it, for example, in charts, the twelve houses. Now, that sort of thing is a dim shadow, in three-dimensional terms, dealing with one planet, of a much more vast system. And in that vast system there are this particular group of people, who are united by certain traits and similarities.


It is my interpretation that what Seth is saying here is this.  Astrology, represents but a vague shadow of something far different. It represents a dim shadow of a much more vast system. This concept that's "far different", that's a much more "vast system" is this concept of the "families of consciousness".



Now, in addition to this, in UR2, Section 6, S729, Seth also says the following about astrology: (here I used blue Bold font, in place of Red Bold Font for highlighting Seth's comments)

Give us a moment ... Using conventional astrology, you will find certain correlations, because of particular events occurring, that are indeed interrelated. Yet many individuals will not discover semblances of themselves in the charts of astrology simply because their chosen probabilities are, qualitatively speaking, so different from the "norm."

When astrology works, it works because the astrologer is using his or her creative and psychic abilities, and then projecting that knowledge into a pattern that is of itself too small to contain it.

[...]

The stars and planets simply are in more than one place at one time. I admit that your perception of them makes them appear to be relatively stable, and you are biologically tuned in to that perception. Your experience of time and motion, as you know, is relative, and in comparison with your own relatively brief lives the planets seem to endure for almost endless periods. This is your viewpoint as you look out from your ledge.

[...]

I am, however, trying to show you that you are not ruled by the stars — and that when you behave as if you are, then you are showing as little comprehension of your true position as our ant did


The comments that Seth made above in Session 729, is the reason why I said that I didn't believe Seth actually supported a belief in astrology.


Unfortunately, the only copy of any of the TPS books that I own is TPS1.  However, using the Seth Search Engine, I did discover that Seth didn't say very much about astrology. According to the Seth Search engine, they only recorded the following 10 results.


https://findingseth.com/q/session:598+astrology/


-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

Oops.

Here's the Seth Search Engine link that contains the 10 items on "Astrology".

https://findingseth.com/q/astrology/


By the way, in the following spoiler, Seth uses an analogy of an "ant" (blue font) to explain his thoughts about astrology. This "ant" example, is also part of the reason why I don't believe that Seth fully supports a belief in astrology

Sorry but you must log in to view spoiler contents.

-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

I just reread UR2, Section 6, Session 729 and I think that this is probably Seth's very best session on the topic of astrology.

In this session, he doesn't just make a comment or two about astrology and then move on to some other topic. Here he really delves into it. I'd say that about 80% of this session is related either directly or indirectly to the topic of astrology and Seth's take on it.

In addition to talking about astrology, Seth also makes some pretty interesting comments, in themselves, such as this one here.


(10:17.) Now give us a moment ... As the cells operate with the knowledge of probable actions and still maintain the physical body in your chosen system, so the psyche, operating in the same way, "seeds" itself in many different probabilities. In this case specifically, I am speaking of other physical probabilities — alternates, in other words, of the world as you know it. Those alive with you, your contemporaries, do not all belong to the same probable system. You are at a meeting ground in that respect, where individuals from many probable realities mix and merge, agreeing momentarily to accept certain portions of the same space-time environment.

Because you focus upon the similarities in experience, and play down the variances, then the oftentimes greater dissimilarities4 in so-called experience escape you completely. You take it for granted that memory is faulty if you do not agree with another person on the events that happened at a certain place and time — say those in a recently experienced historical past. You take it for granted that interpretations of events change, but that certain definite events occurred that are beyond alteration. Instead, the events themselves are not nearly that concrete. You accept one probable event. Someone else may experience instead a version of that event, which then becomes that individual's felt reality.


This,  I think could also be a great topic for discussion here in this forum.



Sena, let me know if you don't have access to UR2. I can post some of Seth's comments about astrology from this session here. 

I also think that what he says in this session may answer your questions in regards to his comment that Astrology, represents but a vague shadow of something far different.

-jbseth
 

[Sena]

I just reread UR2, Section 6, Session 729 and I think that this is probably Seth's very best session on the topic of astrology.

In this session, he doesn't just make a comment or two about astrology and then move on to some other topic. Here he really delves into it. I'd say that about 80% of this session is related either directly or indirectly to the topic of astrology and Seth's take on it.

jbseth, that's a great find.

I think it is worth quoting a large part of that session:

"The emergence of consciousness into those physical conditions automatically alters them — a fact not recognized by astrologers. Each child born alters the entire universe, and changes the world of its time and birth by bringing into it action not there earlier, in your terms, and by impressing the universe with the stamp — the indelible stamp — of its reality. Each child chooses its own probable version of any given birthdate. Such dates are obviously not just points in time, pinpointed in space. In the first place, since all time is simultaneous, you are always dying and being born, and your later experience affects the time of your birth."

"Give us a moment ... Using conventional astrology, you will find certain correlations, because of particular events occurring, that are indeed interrelated. Yet many individuals will not discover semblances of themselves in the charts of astrology simply because their chosen probabilities are, qualitatively speaking, so different from the "norm." When astrology works, it works because the astrologer is using his or her creative and psychic abilities, and then projecting that knowledge into a pattern that is of itself too small to contain it. The chart then simply becomes an aid. I understand that some of this will be difficult to follow. The only other recourse, however, is to repeat myths and tales that you have outgrown. The stars and planets simply are in more than one place at one time. I admit that your perception of them makes them appear to be relatively stable, and you are biologically tuned in to that perception. Your experience of time and motion, as you know, is relative, and in comparison with your own relatively brief lives the planets seem to endure for almost endless periods. This is your viewpoint as you look out from your ledge. (11:40.) Give us a moment ... Other minute creatures might well mark portions of their lives with your coming and going, and imagine that your position at their birth regulated their activity. Imagine them making up charts correlating their lives with your own. Are you in the habit of pacing the floor? In another scale of time, how many ages might it seem to take for your shadow to cross from one side of the room to another? The analogy is not as farfetched as it may seem, for certainly your shadow will affect the temperature of the room minutely, and alter other conditions there in ways you would never comprehend, often causing gigantic variations to a consciousness on another scale."

"An imaginary ant, a philosophical one, might sit and in its own way contemplate how often you walked the floor in a period that might seem like a year to it. It might try to calculate your next passage ahead of time, so that — prudent ant! — it could run "out of the way" in time to avoid your footsteps. Your rumbling tread might shake its tiny home beneath certain floorboards, or in the crevices between. I admit that I am stretching our ant tale here, but imagine further that our little fellow becomes familiar with everyone in, say, an apartment house, learning to recognize all of the footsteps that go up and down the stairs. Our philosopher keeps in touch with the other ants, until with time and work and patience, a chart is made and calculations drawn. An ant born at three o'clock in the afternoon, when Miss X comes home with her boyfriend, is apt to have a hard time of it — for the couple runs about exuberantly, shaking all of the establishment, and tumbling the dust in the inner crevices. I am not comparing astrologers with ants. I am, however, trying to show you that you are not ruled by the stars — and that when you behave as if you are, then you are showing as little comprehension of your true position as our ant did. You are small in relationship to the stars, also, but when you seek to place your fate in their hands, figuratively speaking, then it does seem as if you have little control over your own destiny."

"Jane and I appear to be two of those individuals "who follow a different order of probabilities" as far as astrology is concerned. Beyond some general reading we've done on the subject — both pro and con — we know little about it. However, horoscopes that readers have cast for us, after we've given the requested information about our births, seldom show much correlation with the Jane and Rob we think we know — nor will one person's charts for us agree with those prepared by others. We've ended up feeling that astrology, as it's presently practiced, is too limited in conception. Seth has briefly referred to astrology a few times over the years. As an example, Appendix 21 contains the remarks he made in ESP class last November 26, 1974, concerning the "hidden variables" that can be associated with a recognized birthdate. For the moment, then, Jane and I think that Seth's material on astrology in this 729th session (and, it soon developed, in the 730th) can serve as his answer to those who have asked for his opinion about it." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/iQxh1Vy

I entirely agree with Seth that we are not ruled by the stars. I see astrological coincidences as simply instances of synchronicity.

[Sena]

Astrology can help us understand what is happening in the world this year. This does NOT mean that we are forced to accept a certain situation. We still have freedom of choice.

A significant astrological event which occurred on January 12, 2020 was the conjunction of the planets Saturn and Pluto:

"Saturn and Pluto have spent 2019 at the end of their cycle that began in 1982/83, and as they have moved direct and retrograde within range of a conjunction, they have dredged up old personal patterns and cultural material that we need to address, integrate, contemplate, or clear out. When they form their first exact conjunction at 23 degrees of Capricorn on January 12, 2020, they will initiate a new cycle, shifting the emphasis into forging new forms and structures that support the purpose we have cultivated. There is nothing easy about dealing with experiences related to Saturn and Pluto, but the cathartic intensity they force us to endure aids in developing inner focus, determination, and courage. At times, we must resiliently persist in the face of opposition; at other times we must learn to surrender to elements of life out of our control and nurture feelings of grief caused by loss. If we sustain effort through the challenges, by the end of 2020, we will have made significant progress toward major life goals—and put new, supportive structures in place that will endure for a long time."

https://www.astrology.com/article/2020-saturn-pluto-conjunction-astrology

To understand previous historical instances of Saturn/Pluto conjunction, it is interesting to read the book "Cosmos and Psyche" by Richard Tarnas:

"The psychological orientation associated with the Saturn-Pluto complex often constellates a
compulsion for an Ahab-like obsessive pursuit of an evil that must be rooted out at any cost.
Remarkably, Herman Melville, who explored this complex with such memorable profundity, was
born during the first Saturn-Pluto conjunction of the nineteenth century (1819), and wrote Moby
Dick precisely one cycle later during the immediately following Saturn-Pluto conjunction (1850–
51)."

In our present time the "obsessive pursuit of an evil that must be rooted out at any cost" brings to mind the coronavirus. It must be noted that Tarnas published his book in 2006.

https://cosmosandpsyche.com/

I have not read "Moby Dick". Anyone who has read that book may wish to comment on the above.

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

For me personally, I've never felt that astrology was stupid or completely erroneous.  I've always felt that astrology may be entirely plausible. However, along with this, I've also always had some doubts about it and some of these doubts come from my scientific background and understanding of both astronomy and the force of gravity.


Some of the questions that I've had about astrology have to do with 2 main issues.

1. Are a person's personality traits and is a person's life experience, really predictable, based upon the placement / movements of the planets?

2. Are the specific traits that are assigned to the planets or planetary effects, really correct?




I've always felt that a person's personality traits were at least partly shaped by life experience and not necessarily entirely set at birth.


Another issue for me has been my awareness that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were discovered in relatively recent times (1781, 1846, and 1930).  If these planets (and maybe Pluto isn't a planet) have always been there in the past, then their effects weren't accounted for, for example, in any astrological predictions made during the middle ages. Wouldn't these planets have had some kind of effect on those predictions?

Along with this, I think that its plausible that we may have the very same issue, today. That is, sometime in the future, it is possible that some astronomer will discover a new planet that exists in our solar system. If so, wouldn't that planet have had some sort of astrological effect on any astrological predictions that are made today?

So, along with thinking astrology is plausible, I also have some questions and doubts about it.  However, I also have no issues with anyone who believes in it.



That being said, here's some other points that Seth made about this topic in Session 729.  Here some of his main points seem to be these:

1) A reminder that we are conscious beings, before we are born.

2) The existence of probable realities and their effects upon us.

3) Before we are born, we create a blueprint for our next life, this blueprint is flexible however, there is no predestination.

4) Before we are born, we establish certain trigger events that are to occur in our lives. We may or may not opt to activate or react to these trigger events during our life, again there is no predestination. 

Sorry but you must log in to view spoiler contents.

-jbseth
 

[Sena]

Another issue for me has been my awareness that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto were discovered in relatively recent times (1781, 1846, and 1930).  If these planets (and maybe Pluto isn't a planet) have always been there in the past, then their effects weren't accounted for, for example, in any astrological predictions made during the middle ages. Wouldn't these planets have had some kind of effect on those predictions?

jbseth, that is a good question. It did occur to me that Pluto was discovered only recently. The statements about Melville and Moby Dick are being made retrospectively. There is no evidence that any contemporaries of Melville stated that he was under the influence of Saturn/Plute. I assume that modern astronomers/astrologers are able to calculate the positions of Saturn and Pluto in the early 19th century. I am not certain of this, so I'll try to look into it further.

Pluto was discovered in 1930. It is no longer considered to be a planet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto

"Since the invention of the telescope, Western astrology has incorporated Uranus, Neptune, Ceres, Pluto, and other bodies into its methodology. The Indian and Chinese astrologies have tended to retain the ancient seven-planet system."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planets_in_astrology

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

One of the doubts that I have about Astrology, actually comes from Astronomy.


My birthdate is somewhat interesting because I was born on October 23. For some books on astrology, this is a cusp date.  In some, this makes me a Libra, in others this makes me a Scorpio. In some of these astrology books, Scorpico is said to range from Oct 23 to Nov 22.

Along with this, some other astrologers actually use a slightly different system, it is said that a Libra ranges from Oct 16 to Nov 16. This then, would make me a Libra.


However, from an Astromony standpoint, on Oct 23, the sun is in the constellation Virgo (see wikipedia website below). The sun is in constellation Virgo from Sept 16 to Oct 30. Then it moves into Libra, and stays there from Oct 31 to Nov, 22. Then, on Nov 23, it moves into Scorpio and stays there until Nov 29.

As a result of this, during the astrological timeframe that is given for Scorpio, in some astrology books (Oct 23 – Nov 22) at no time during this time period is the sun actually in the constellation of Scorpio. This seems rather odd to me.

Here is another issue I have with astrology. Given that the sun is actually in Virgo on Oct 23, shouldn't I actually be a Virgo and not either a Libra or a Scorpio?

Shouldn't my astrological reading be based upon the actual location of the sun and planets on the day I was born?



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac


-jbseth
 

[Sena]

My birthdate is somewhat interesting because I was born on October 23. For some books on astrology, this is a cusp date.  In some, this makes me a Libra, in others this makes me a Scorpio. In some of these astrology books, Scorpico is said to range from Oct 23 to Nov 22.

jbseth, my understanding is that the time of birth (accurate to within about one hour) is needed to do a horoscope reading. If you don't have your time of birth, you can try to work out your star sign by comparing your personality traits to those typical of Libra or Scorpio.

The question of birth time is of course complicated by drug-induced labour or Caesarean Section.

[jbseth]

Hi Sena, Hi All,

Actually, I do know the time of my birth. My Mom told me that I was born very close to 6 am, in the morning.

I'm not sure how much that helps, if the sun was actually in Virgo that day and one astrologer says that I'm a Libra and another says I'm a Scorpio.


Oh, in regards to your comments where you said, "I assume that modern astronomers/astrologers are able to calculate the positions of Saturn and Pluto in the early 19th century. I am not certain of this, so I'll try to look into it further."

If they have the correct equipment they can. About 10 years ago, I found a Planetarium program on a CD (compact disk; the cost was about $10.00) for my laptop. It's fantastic. It shows the sky, the stars and planets day or night for any given day, at any given time, for almost anywhere on earth, from about the year 1,000 BCE to about the year 3,000 CE.

I've played around with it a little bit to see if there were any planetary conjunctions that may have occured in the sky over the Middle East, from about 10 BCE to about 10 CE. My thought being that maybe their was a conjunction of, for example Venus (the Goddess of Love) and Jupiter (the King of the Gods) (these are two of the brightest objects in the night sky) that may have been the source of the "Star of Bethlehem" story in the Gospel of Matthew. As it turns out there were some conjunctions in that general timeframe.

So yes, with todays technology, I'd say that if a person has a laptop and also has a fairly inexpensive Planetarium program like mine, they should be able to determine what Pluto and Saturn were doing at some point in time in the 1800's.

I don't know whether any astrologers would use this type of info. because, as in my birthdate situation,  the sun isn't necessarily in Scorpio, during the astrological timeframe of Scorpio.

-jbseth

[Sena]

Actually, I do know the time of my birth. My Mom told me that I was born very close to 6 am, in the morning.

jbseth, I see you are having a late night! I am afraid I don't have the knowledge to work out your star sign. You will need to look up an internet site or consult an astrologer.

What I now realize is that I am not much interested in forecasting the future using astrology. I am more interested in understanding the past and the present. It is likely that astrological knowledge is not advanced enough to forecast the future, or perhaps the existence of free will makes it impossible to do that.

[Sena]

The following article looks like a good summary of the current scientific evidence for astrology:

https://www.near-death.com/paranormal/astrology/scientific-evidence-suggestive-of-astrology.html

I was particularly interested in this section:

"Psychiatrist Dr. Mitchell E. Gibson, M.D., did a study of more than 400 astrological birth charts and through the use of scientific statistical research models, discovered a new technique for predicting mental illness. He discovered that the average person's birth chart contains about three marker aspects of depression. The birth chart of someone with major depression contains an average of ten such markers. Even with no previous astrological experience, a person can spot the indicators for mental illness through the declinations and multiple planet aspects that form the basis of this pioneering work. All of the patients were diagnosed according to the DSM-IV, the gold standard of psychiatric diagnostic criteria. The diagnostic groups represented include major depression, anxiety, addictive disorder, schizophrenia, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. His study is documented in his book Signs Of Mental Illness: An Astrological and Psychiatric Breakthrough by Mitchell E. Gibson."

[jbseth]

"The psychological orientation associated with the Saturn-Pluto complex often constellates a
compulsion for an Ahab-like obsessive pursuit of an evil that must be rooted out at any cost.
Remarkably, Herman Melville, who explored this complex with such memorable profundity, was
born during the first Saturn-Pluto conjunction of the nineteenth century (1819), and wrote Moby
Dick precisely one cycle later during the immediately following Saturn-Pluto conjunction (1850–
51)."

In our present time the "obsessive pursuit of an evil that must be rooted out at any cost" brings to mind the coronavirus. It must be noted that Tarnas published his book in 2006.

https://cosmosandpsyche.com/

I have not read "Moby Dick". Anyone who has read that book may wish to comment on the above.

Hi Sena, Hi All,

I never read the book "Moby Dick", but I recalling seeing the movie that was made in the 1956, when I was little.  I don't know how much you know about this story. It's the story of a sea captain, the captain of a whaling ship, Captain Ahab, who's basically fanatical about killing a white sperm whale, Moby Dick, who previously had destroyed other whaling ships.

In the movie, Gregory Peck, played the part of Captain Ahab.

Here's an eight minute video of basically the ending of the movie, I found on you tube.





Depending on the point of view, I think that you could also say that Moby Dick was also rooting out an evil, (Captain Ahab and the whalers who were trying to kill him), as well. 

As I understand it Herman Melville, wrote this story, Moby Dick, based upon a story that he had heard. This story that he heard, has been recently retold in a book and a movie called, "In the Heart of the Sea".


- jbseth

[Sena]

Depending on the point of view, I think that you could also say that Moby Dick was also rooting out an evil, (Captain Ahab and the whalers who were trying to kill him), as well.

jbseth, you are correct. From the whale's point of view, it is the hunters who are evil. Here is a longer extract from "Cosmos and Psyche" by Richard Tarnas:

"One of the most remarkable sequences of synchronicities I have ever observed was a
dramatic convergence of events involving Melville, Moby Dick, and the two planetary cycles we
have been examining in this book. As we have seen, Melville was born in 1819 when Saturn and
Pluto were in conjunction, and also when the Uranus-Pluto square was occurring, which
corresponds to that powerful combination of conflicting complexes and impulses that we observed
in Marx, who was born during the same alignments, and in several especially critical historical
periods such as the mid-1960s and mid-1790s. In Melville and Moby Dick, we can recognize the
potent interaction between these two archetypal complexes: on the one hand, the Uranus-Pluto
themes of the awakening and eruption of nature's forces in the whale, the unleashing of the
instinctual id in Ahab his act of titanic defiance and the titanic power and creative intensity of the
book Moby Dick itself; and on the other hand, the Saturn-Pluto themes of punitive retribution
against nature and relentless obsession with projected evil, the cauldron of the instincts within Ahab
driving his compulsion for vengeance with inexorable force.
Eleven days after Melville was born, in August 1919, the whaleship Essex departed from
Nantucket for the southern Pacific Ocean, where it was attacked by an eighty-foot whale and sunk.
According to the account later published by the Essex's first mate, Owen Chase, the whale rammed
the ship deliberately and repeatedly with "fury and vengeance" until it had destroyed and sunk the
ship. The twenty surviving whalers were forced to spend the next ninety-three days unprotected and
starving in rowboats in the open ocean, where most of them eventually died. This fateful voyage,
from its departure through the ramming and sinking of the ship by the whale fifteen months later,
took place during the same Saturn-Pluto conjunction and Uranus-Pluto square of Melville's birth.
The titanic forces of nature embodied in the whale, a vivid expression of the Plutonic principle of
nature's elemental power, mass, and instinct, can here be seen as suddenly awakened and erupting
in a most unexpected manner, as is characteristic of the Uranus-Pluto complex. Yet the whale that
turned upon and destroyed the Essex has also become, like both Moby Dick and Ahab, the
Saturnian agent of judgment, punishment, retribution, and death—precisely reflective of the Saturn-
Pluto complex.

Growing up unaware of this dramatic event that occurred so near his birth, Melville in his
early twenties signed on to a three-year whaling voyage, which took him to the same area of the
South Pacific as the scene of the Essex's sinking. While on that voyage, he happened to meet the
son of Owen Chase, the Essex's first mate, who loaned him a copy of the father's original narrative.
Melville was deeply affected by reading "the wondrous story upon the landless sea," as he later
wrote, "and so close to the very latitude of the shipwreck."
Exactly one full Saturn-Pluto cycle after Melville's birth and the sinking of the Essex,
during the very next conjunction of those two planets in 1850–51, Melville wrote and published
Moby Dick. Amazingly, just as Melville was completing his book, in August 1851, with the Saturn-
Pluto conjunction within 4° of exact alignment, the whaleship Ann Alexander was rammed and sunk
by an enraged sperm whale it had been pursuing in the same waters in which the same fate had
befallen the Essex over thirty years earlier—to this day the only two well-documented cases of such
an event. Melville was stunned when he learned of the great coincidence."

[jbseth]

Hi Sena,

Thanks for sharing that, I knew about the Essex connection but didn't know about the second ship Ann Alexander being sunk by a whale years later in the same general area. Interesting.

In the last few years or so, I've heard that there are some people (I'm referring to scientists not New Age / Seth type people) have started to think that maybe some whales live much longer than was previously thought (see attached website). Given this, I wonder if it might have been the same whale that attacked both ships.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2019/12/12/lifespan-clock-reveals-bowhead-whales-live-268the-oldest-mammals/


Given the stories that I've heard about aggressive roosters and raging bull elephants, for example, I can imagine that an enraged, say 80 foot male sperm whale could post quiet a problem to whalers, who were trying to kill whales in wooden boats and wooden ships.

- jbseth

[Sena]

More on the Saturn-Pluto complex from the Richard Tarnas book:

"It is typical of artists born during Saturn-Pluto alignments to express many different facets
of that archetypal complex in work after work, as if compelled to explore new possible inflections
not yet fully enacted and embodied. Alfred Hitchcock, for example, who was born in 1899 during
the Saturn-Pluto opposition, brought forth an extraordinary succession of meticulously wrought
films—The 39 Steps, Sabotage, Suspicion, Spellbound, Notorious, I Confess, Dial M for Murder,
Rear Window, Vertigo, North by Northwest, Psycho, The Birds—that addressed a specific spectrum
of motifs all associated with the Saturn-Pluto complex: mortal danger, extreme fear, murder, guilt,
the hidden dark depths of human existence, sinister plots, helpless entrapment, horror and terror.

The same year, 1899, and the same Saturn-Pluto opposition that coincided with the birth of
Hitchcock also coincided with the birth of Ernest Hemingway, whose many novels and stories were
equally emblematic of this complex, though they took a somewhat different range of inflections.
Hemingway's lifelong concern with (and attraction to) war, death, killing, the grim brutality of life,
and unflinching realism in the face of death and life's harshness are all suggestive of the Saturn-
Pluto archetypal gestalt. Yet another side of the same complex is vividly expressed in Hemingway's
late novel, The Old Man and the Sea, by the old fisherman's brave, unbending determination
despite extreme hardship in a long battle with sharks, nature's elements, and death."

[Michael Sternbach]

Sena and jbseth

This is a very interesting thread to me, as I have been first an ardent student of the Seth material and a few years later turned to astrology in search of further insights into myself and the people I was dealing with professionally at the time. Now, some 27 years later, I continue practising and writing about astrology on many occasions - a science and art whose significance and accuracy never ceases to impress me.

You guys touched on various topics already, and there is much that could be said regarding each of them...

Well, first off, regarding the often-heard accusation that (most) astrologers are using a zodiac that is out of sync with the actual constellations, it is important to understand that the signs have never been fully congruent with the constellations in the first place! Rather, the zodiac is an abstraction, an invisible band as it were, covering a certain area right above and below the annual course of the Sun, or the ecliptic. As such, it can serve as a frame of reference against which ever changing positions of the Sun, the Moon, and the planets can accurately be measured.

To that end, this circular band has been divided into twelve sections of exactly 30 degrees each - known as the signs - whose beginnings (in four cases) coincide with significant positions occupied by the Sun during his apparent annual course around the Earth - namely at the two equinoxes and the two solstices, which mark the beginnings of the seasons.

Now at the time the zodiac we use today came into existence, the signs were indeed roughly congruent with the constellations, even though some of the latter are significantly longer or shorter than 30 degrees. At any rate, the match was good enough in order for the constellations to serve as markers for the signs, which accordingly were called by the names of the former.

Therefore it is simply of no consequence for (most) modern astrologers that the constellations have since moved on by the length of about one sign, because what matters in regards to the zodiac is that it defines the relation between the Earth and the Sun that is then extrapolated to the whole solar system according to a logic that I can elaborate on upon request. The thing to remember, though, is that the signs as defined by traditional astrology - unlike the constellations - are fixed in space and never change. 

[Sena]

This is a very interesting thread to me, as I have been first an ardent student of the Seth material and a few years later turned to astrology in search of further insights into myself and the people I was dealing with professionally at the time. Now, some 27 years later, I continue practising and writing about astrology on many occasions - a science and art whose significance and accuracy never ceases to impress me.

Michael, have you read Jung on astrology? My main interest in astrology is that I see it as an instance of synchronicity, meaning that certain events in human lives seem to occur synchronously with certain planetary events.

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2018/03/16/jung-on-synchronicity-and-the-mechanism-for-astrology/

"Astrology as synchronicity
Consistent acausal parallelism or correspondence.
General orderedness that runs through reality.
Synchronicity on a grand scale.
Transcendental psychophysical background.
Psyche and cosmos interconnected, not separate.
An underlying principle of order
Arises out of and subsumed some of the previous theories."

"Psyche and cosmos interconnected, not separate." is very Sethian,

[Michael Sternbach]

This is a very interesting thread to me, as I have been first an ardent student of the Seth material and a few years later turned to astrology in search of further insights into myself and the people I was dealing with professionally at the time. Now, some 27 years later, I continue practising and writing about astrology on many occasions - a science and art whose significance and accuracy never ceases to impress me.

Michael, have you read Jung on astrology? My main interest in astrology is that I see it as an instance of synchronicity, meaning that certain events in human lives seem to occur synchronously with certain planetary events.

https://theastrologypodcast.com/2018/03/16/jung-on-synchronicity-and-the-mechanism-for-astrology/

"Astrology as synchronicity
Consistent acausal parallelism or correspondence.
General orderedness that runs through reality.
Synchronicity on a grand scale.
Transcendental psychophysical background.
Psyche and cosmos interconnected, not separate.
An underlying principle of order
Arises out of and subsumed some of the previous theories."

"Psyche and cosmos interconnected, not separate." is very Sethian,

Yes, I am familiar with much of Jung's work, including what he shared on astrology. Especially what he presented in Aion and Mysterium Conjunctionis. - Those books provided profound inspirations to me at one stage.

I agree with Jung's view of astrology as based on synchronicity, overall. However, I feel there is still room left for exploring the true nature of that acausal relation that we call synchronicity today. An exploration that will tie in with our (hopefully) growing understanding of multi-dimensional physics eventually.

The image I am getting is one of the Sun, Moon, and planets being so many hands in a cosmic clock whose face is the zodiac. The use of that clock is not so much to measure time in the quantitative sense, even though it may very well have served that purpose in time immemorial. More importantly, it is indicating the quality of any given moment in time, however. That is, it can provide us with information as to what is coming into (or going out of) existence at any given time and place, encoded in symbolic language comprised of archetypical images.

I think this view is pretty much in line with what Seth shared in Unknown Reality, vol. 2, essentially.

Also, in this context, it might be interesting to consider that, according to a statement Seth made in Seth Speaks, our understanding of the nature of time is limited, as its perceived flow has to do with a multi-dimensional process that is currently beyond our comprehension.

So yes, I agree with you that an understanding of the mechanism that underlies astrology and of things shared by Seth regarding the nature of reality could and should enhance each other.

[Sena]

I think this view is pretty much in line with what Seth shared in Unknown Reality, vol. 2, essentially

Michael, I have Unknown Reality, Vol.2 on my Kindle, but I have read only parts of it. Are the following passages the kind of thing you had in mind?:

"All That Is creates its reality as it goes along. Each world has its own impetus, yet all are ultimately connected. The true dimensions of a divine creativity would be unendurable for any one consciousness of whatever import, and so that splendor is infinitely dimensionalized (most intensely throughout), worlds spiraling outward with each 'moment' of a cosmic breath; with the separation of worlds a necessity, and with individual and mass comprehension always growing at such a rate that All That Is multiplies itself at microseconds, building both pasts and futures and other time scales you do not recognize. Each is a reality in itself, with its own potentials, and with no individual consciousness, however minute, ever lost." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

"God knows itself through the flesh. God may know itself through a million or a thousand million other worlds, as so may I — but because this world is, and because I am alive in it, it is more than appearance, more than a shackle to be thrown aside. It is a privilege to be here, to look out with this unique focus, with these individual eyes; not to be blinded by cosmic vision, but to see this corner of reality which I form through the miraculous connections of soul and flesh." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/0qSuXXG

[jbseth]

Hi All,

Regarding astrology, I can definitely see what Seth is saying in his four comments below, all taken from UR2, Section 6, Session 729.



1.
Using conventional astrology, you will find certain correlations, because of particular events occurring, that are indeed interrelated.

2.
Yet many individuals will not discover semblances of themselves in the charts of astrology simply because their chosen probabilities are, qualitatively speaking, so different from the "norm."

3,
When astrology works, it works because the astrologer is using his or her creative and psychic abilities, and then projecting that knowledge into a pattern that is of itself too small to contain it. The chart then simply becomes an aid.

4.
I am, however, trying to show you that you are not ruled by the stars — and that when you behave as if you are, then you are showing as little comprehension of your true position as our ant did. You are small in relationship to the stars, also, but when you seek to place your fate in their hands, figuratively speaking, then it does seem as if you have little control over your own destiny.



For the most part, what Seth says here is how I view astrology.

-jbseth

[jbseth]

Hi All,

Regarding astrology, actually given what Seth has to say about: 1) beliefs, 2) probable realities, 3) the imagination and 4) Framework 2, I suspect that our beliefs about astrology, probably have more to do with how we view astrology than the actual reality of astrology itself. Whatever that is.


For a person who doesn't believe in astrology, he'll point out the many times an astrological forecast was completely off the mark. On the other hand, for those times, when the forecast was on the mark, he'll view these as just being purely random and coincidental. Thus, in his mind, his beliefs about astrology, will seem to be correct.

For a person who believes in astrology, he'll point out the many times that an astrological forecast was right on the mark, or close to it. On the other hand, for those times when the forecast was off the mark, he'll acknowledge that astrology isn't always 100% perfect. Thus, in his mind, his beliefs about astrology, will seem to be correct.


Who's views about astrology are actually correct? Who really knows for sure. However, in one way they both are, because our beliefs create our reality.


-jbseth

[Michael Sternbach]

I think this view is pretty much in line with what Seth shared in Unknown Reality, vol. 2, essentially

Michael, I have Unknown Reality, Vol.2 on my Kindle, but I have read only parts of it. Are the following passages the kind of thing you had in mind?:

...

No, Seth presents his views on astrology in sessions 729 and 730, contained in that book.

Specifically, I was thinking of the following statement:

"All things are related, but they do not act in a certain way because the planets were such-and-such at your birth. There is a relationship, but it is not causal.
   It is quite as true to say that the planets behave in a certain way because you are what you are, as it is to turn the statement around, as is generally done."

By introducing some kind of relationship that connects celestial bodies to humans, although in a non-causal fashion, Seth clearly alludes to what Jung used to refer to as synchronicity.

There are also other instances in which Seth challenges our ideas of cause and effect, calling this "a subordinate law" (if memory serves) in one place.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi All,

Regarding astrology, I can definitely see what Seth is saying in his four comments below, all taken from UR2, Section 6, Session 729.



1.
Using conventional astrology, you will find certain correlations, because of particular events occurring, that are indeed interrelated.

Agreed.

2.
Yet many individuals will not discover semblances of themselves in the charts of astrology simply because their chosen probabilities are, qualitatively speaking, so different from the "norm."

Here Seth seems to suggest that it is possible for an individual to choose probabilities that are not indicated in their chart.

This reminds me of how I once tried to discuss the question of how the unlimited possibilities of the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics might fit in with the relative determinism of the astrological framework with an academically inclined fellow astrologer, but TBH, we didn't get very far.

I say relative determinism because astrology in fact describes not so much individuals and events per se, but rather their underlying blueprint in terms of a symbolic language that refers to archetypal forces. This leaves us with so much leeway not only in regards to the interpretation of a chart, but also to the form the expression of those forces will actually take in concrete manifestation.

It is just like what Jung said about the nature of an archetype: it has no tangible form by itself, however, it can show itself in many different (but subtly related) forms. He likened this to the geometric structure underlying a certain type of crystal which is some kind of an abstraction, as it can manifest itself in so many different specimens, not two of which are exactly the same.

3,
When astrology works, it works because the astrologer is using his or her creative and psychic abilities, and then projecting that knowledge into a pattern that is of itself too small to contain it. The chart then simply becomes an aid.

Some truth to that! Because there is that variability I mentioned, it is not uncommon that astrologers go astray in the interpretation of a chart, and I suspect that the best amongst us are at times resorting to their intuition when it comes to working out the details of a reading. In fact, being a graduate of the Silva Mind Control method that teaches psychic analysis of a person's condition, I sometimes deliberately use that kind of combined approach when delineating a client's chart. Some of my most accurate and comprehensive readings were produced that way!

4.
I am, however, trying to show you that you are not ruled by the stars — and that when you behave as if you are, then you are showing as little comprehension of your true position as our ant did. You are small in relationship to the stars, also, but when you seek to place your fate in their hands, figuratively speaking, then it does seem as if you have little control over your own destiny.
[/color]

Again, the question is: Do you think of the celestial bodies as external forces that would determine your fate without you having much of a say in this yourself? It is true that some of the older astrological doctrines - as well as some of the more fatalistic practitioners today - could make you think and feel that way.

Or do you consider astrology to be about the internal forces of your psyche - the colours, as it were, that you as a conscious creator can apply to paint your desired reality with?

And what do you think... Why is it that in the old days, the magicians let astrology play such a prominent role in the practice of their art? 

For the most part, what Seth says here is how I view astrology.

-jbseth

[Sena]

Specifically, I was thinking of the following statement:

"All things are related, but they do not act in a certain way because the planets were such-and-such at your birth. There is a relationship, but it is not causal.
   It is quite as true to say that the planets behave in a certain way because you are what you are, as it is to turn the statement around, as is generally done."

By introducing some kind of relationship that connects celestial bodies to humans, although in a non-causal fashion, Seth clearly alludes to what Jung used to refer to as synchronicity.

There are also other instances in which Seth challenges our ideas of cause and effect, calling this "a subordinate law" (if memory serves) in one place

Michael, thanks for drawing our attention to that passage. I think these are the full quotes:

"You are so taken with the idea of labels that many follow astrology blindly. You are born at a certain time, at a certain place, under certain conditions — but consciousness always forms the conditions. If it is to some extent affected by those conditions, then, it is because the effects follow in the same way that a painter is affected by the landscape that he has himself created. So you decide to be born, say, in a certain month when the planets are thus-and-so. Ahead of time, you choose the seasons of your birth. In the most simple of terms, you are deciding upon the environment. A violet springs to life in the backyard, but the violet must stay there. Its whole growth is dependent upon the weather conditions in that particular area, even though those conditions themselves result from overall planetary activity. You walk out of the place and time of your birth, however, as the flower cannot." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)
"All things are related, but they do not act in a certain way because the planets were such-and-such at your birth. There is a relationship, but it is not causal. It is quite as true to say that the planets behave in a certain way because you are what you are, as it is to turn the statement around, as is generally done. The very positions of the planets and the stars are effects of the senses — perceptions that would have no meaning were it not for your own kind of consciousness." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/cFAu1Qs

This is a great illustration of Seth's unique point of view. I come from a Buddhist country, Sri Lanka, where people believe in karma and deterministic astrology. So if I was born in unfavorable circumstances, I would say that was because of bad karma and the bad position of the planets at the time of my birth. Seth turns this idea on its head. I chose to be born when the planets are arranged in that way.

Seth's view is as antagonistic to Christian doctrine as it is to Buddhism. According to Christian doctrine "God" decides in what circumstances an individual is born.

Another point is that if I decide to be born at a certain time, then it is NOT synchronicity. Synchronicity means pure coincidence.

[Michael Sternbach]

Specifically, I was thinking of the following statement:

"All things are related, but they do not act in a certain way because the planets were such-and-such at your birth. There is a relationship, but it is not causal.
   It is quite as true to say that the planets behave in a certain way because you are what you are, as it is to turn the statement around, as is generally done."

By introducing some kind of relationship that connects celestial bodies to humans, although in a non-causal fashion, Seth clearly alludes to what Jung used to refer to as synchronicity.

There are also other instances in which Seth challenges our ideas of cause and effect, calling this "a subordinate law" (if memory serves) in one place

Michael, thanks for drawing our attention to that passage. I think these are the full quotes:

"You are so taken with the idea of labels that many follow astrology blindly. You are born at a certain time, at a certain place, under certain conditions — but consciousness always forms the conditions. If it is to some extent affected by those conditions, then, it is because the effects follow in the same way that a painter is affected by the landscape that he has himself created. So you decide to be born, say, in a certain month when the planets are thus-and-so. Ahead of time, you choose the seasons of your birth. In the most simple of terms, you are deciding upon the environment. A violet springs to life in the backyard, but the violet must stay there. Its whole growth is dependent upon the weather conditions in that particular area, even though those conditions themselves result from overall planetary activity. You walk out of the place and time of your birth, however, as the flower cannot." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)
"All things are related, but they do not act in a certain way because the planets were such-and-such at your birth. There is a relationship, but it is not causal. It is quite as true to say that the planets behave in a certain way because you are what you are, as it is to turn the statement around, as is generally done. The very positions of the planets and the stars are effects of the senses — perceptions that would have no meaning were it not for your own kind of consciousness." (from "The "Unknown" Reality, Volume Two (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts)

From the Kindle edition: https://amzn.eu/cFAu1Qs

This is a great illustration of Seth's unique point of view. I come from a Buddhist country, Sri Lanka, where people believe in karma and deterministic astrology. So if I was born in unfavorable circumstances, I would say that was because of bad karma and the bad position of the planets at the time of my birth. Seth turns this idea on its head. I chose to be born when the planets are arranged in that way.

Seth's view is as antagonistic to Christian doctrine as it is to Buddhism. According to Christian doctrine "God" decides in what circumstances an individual is born.

Whereas Seth maintains that we choose those circumstances ourselves according to the needs of our greater identity - and that includes our cosmic environment.

The kind of astrology I practise is non-deterministic. Its aim is to explore things like:

• An individual's inclinations and talents.
• Problematic areas that call for introspection and internal work.
• Times that are particularly supportive of certain events.
• Etc.

Many find that kind of astrology to be a great help in gaining insight into their own dynamics. I have therefore often applied it in a therapeutic context.

Another point is that if I decide to be born at a certain time, then it is NOT synchronicity. Synchronicity means pure coincidence.

Synchronicity means meaningful coincidence. It could be that your inner self's intention attracts the fitting circumstances in a non-causal manner.

Magic in general could be said to be the art of intentionally bringing on meaningful coincidences. According to Seth, much of the creation of our reality happens that way, although not necessarily by a deliberate act.

That being said, we know little about the exact mechanisms involved. Seth's framework 2 concept may be a step in the right direction. I feel it ties in with Jung's collective unconscious.

[Sena]

The kind of astrology I practise is non-deterministic. Its aim is to explore things like:
An individual's inclinations and talents.
Problematic areas that call for introspection and internal work.
Times that are particularly supportive of certain events.
Etc.
Many find that kind of astrology to be a great help in gaining insight into their own dynamics. I have therefore often applied it in a therapeutic context.

Michael, that makes very good sense. Are you a psychotherapist?

[Michael Sternbach]

The kind of astrology I practise is non-deterministic. Its aim is to explore things like:
An individual's inclinations and talents.
Problematic areas that call for introspection and internal work.
Times that are particularly supportive of certain events.
Etc.
Many find that kind of astrology to be a great help in gaining insight into their own dynamics. I have therefore often applied it in a therapeutic context.

Michael, that makes very good sense. Are you a psychotherapist?

Well, I  started my career as a certified Bach Flower therapist in the 90's. I was mostly treating the patients of a psychotherapeutic and psychiatric practice back then. Over time, I included Tarot cards, astrology, visualization exercises and other methods in my repertoire.

[jbseth]

The kind of astrology I practise is non-deterministic.

Well, I  started my career as a certified Bach Flower therapist in the 90's. I was mostly treating the patients of a psychotherapeutic and psychiatric practice back then. Over time, I included Tarot cards, astrology, visualization exercises and other methods in my repertoire.

Hi Michael,

I'm curious. In your astrology practice, how do you avoid the deterministic nature of the movement of the stars and planets?

Several years I came across a wonderful planetarium CD program that I loaded onto my laptop and I can view the night sky, from virtually any place on earth, at any time, into the distance past or future.

I've gone back, for example to the timeframe of around the year, 4 BCE, and poked around the night sky in the Middle East, just to see if there were any noteworthy astronomical events that occurred at the estimated time of Jesus's birth. I don't consider myself a Christian. This was just an exercise to try out the capabilities of this program and to see if there were any interesting astronomical events (conjunctions, Halley's comet) in the night sky, at that time, in regards to the Gospel of Matthews claim (which I think from biblical scholarship – was questionable) that a star moved rather oddly across the sky at the supposed time that Jesus was born.


While I personally have some doubts about astrology due partly to this deterministic nature of the stars and planets, I do believe in the ability of psychics to use pendulums, tarot cards, etc, to pick up on many psychic phenomenon.

-jbseth

[Michael Sternbach]

The kind of astrology I practise is non-deterministic.

Well, I  started my career as a certified Bach Flower therapist in the 90's. I was mostly treating the patients of a psychotherapeutic and psychiatric practice back then. Over time, I included Tarot cards, astrology, visualization exercises and other methods in my repertoire.

Hi Michael,

I'm curious. In your astrology practice, how do you avoid the deterministic nature of the movement of the stars and planets?

Several years I came across a wonderful planetarium CD program that I loaded onto my laptop and I can view the night sky, from virtually any place on earth, at any time, into the distance past or future.

I've gone back, for example to the timeframe of around the year, 4 BCE, and poked around the night sky in the Middle East, just to see if there were any noteworthy astronomical events that occurred at the estimated time of Jesus's birth. I don't consider myself a Christian. This was just an exercise to try out the capabilities of this program and to see if there were any interesting astronomical events (conjunctions, Halley's comet) in the night sky, at that time, in regards to the Gospel of Matthews claim (which I think from biblical scholarship – was questionable) that a star moved rather oddly across the sky at the supposed time that Jesus was born.


While I personally have some doubts about astrology due partly to this deterministic nature of the stars and planets, I do believe in the ability of psychics to use pendulums, tarot cards, etc, to pick up on many psychic phenomenon.

-jbseth

jbseth,

I am not sure what you mean by 'deterministic'. The stars and planets are not determining anything for humans. Except that each human individual is a microcosmos that reflects the macrocosmos in some ways.

Seth says in NoPR that various aspects of the self come to the fore at different times. It is the patterns, cycles and rhythms of these internal forces that astrology studies.

They are projected outward and reflected in the individual's experience. Thus we create our own reality. This happens by way of resonance - like attracts like. There is no coincidence in the usual understanding - but just look at what's actually in that word: co-incidence! Even if we speak of synchronicity, there is always resonance underlying it.

Does this clarify my view for you?

[jbseth]

I am not sure what you mean by 'deterministic'.

Hi Michael,

Please don't take this wrong, in no way do I mean this as any sort of personal attack upon either you or astrology. Sometimes its hard to interpret a persons intent in a written message. I don't know a lot about "astrology" and so what I'm doing here is running this by you to see if my assumptions here about astrology are correct. I'm not sure they are.


I'm assuming that the following 2 concepts are part of astrology:

1. Astrology is based upon the location of the various stars and planets at a specific date and time of a person's conception and / or birth?

2 Astrology also tell us what's likely to happen to a person based upon the location of the various stars and planets at some future time in their lives, such as today?



Assuming these are in fact true, then right now, using my planetarium program, I can determine the location of the various stars and planets for June 4, 2049 PST at 6:00 am.

I can also determine the location of the various stars and planets for August 6, 2087 PST at 3:00 pm.


Using this information, it would seem that, right now, for people who will either be conceived or born in, let's say, Los Angeles on June 4, 2049 PST at 6:00 am, an astrologer would be able to tell us what's likely to happen in one of these persons lives on August 6, 2087 PST at 3:00 pm.



While this person isn't even born yet, I'm assuming that an astrologer would be able to say something about what's going to happen to them on August 6, 2087.  Furthermore, since the locations of the various stars and planet's can already be more or less be predicted for every moment of this persons life, right now, and since astrology is based upon the locations of the various stars and planet's at any point in time, then the events of this persons entire life can already be predicted using astrology.

Thus, astrology would predict everything that is to occur in this persons life and thus limit or completely eliminate any capability that a person has, in creating their reality.

That's what I mean by deterministic.

- jbseth

[Michael Sternbach]

I am not sure what you mean by 'deterministic'.

Hi Michael,

Please don't take this wrong, in no way do I mean this as any sort of personal attack upon either you or astrology. Sometimes its hard to interpret a persons intent in a written message. I don't know a lot about "astrology" and so what I'm doing here is running this by you to see if my assumptions here about astrology are correct. I'm not sure they are.

jbseth,

I don't feel offended at all. Forum boards are not least for discussing controversial topics! And your attitude surely seems fair and open-minded enough.

I'm assuming that the following 2 concepts are part of astrology:

1. Astrology is based upon the location of the various stars and planets at a specific date and time of a person's conception and / or birth?

Yes, that is correct as far as the astrology of the individual is concerned. And we generally use the time of birth, as the moment of conception is rarely known with the required degree of precision anyway.

And it may be worth mentioning that we actually rarely get to interpret the charts of people we have no prior knowledge about at all. Our objective is generally not to prove that astrology works, but to gain additional insight into an individual or situation (for we already know it works ). However, a "blind reading" may occasionally be done for practising purposes. Examples for that can be seen here:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=92512#92512

2 Astrology also tell us what's likely to happen to a person based upon the location of the various stars and planets at some future time in their lives, such as today?

It can show what kind of general topic will come up at some future time in their life. Only provided we have some background info on their life's previous development may it be possible to make more concrete assumptions.

Assuming these are in fact true, then right now, using my planetarium program, I can determine the location of the various stars and planets for June 4, 2049 PST at 6:00 am.

I can also determine the location of the various stars and planets for August 6, 2087 PST at 3:00 pm.

Sure, lest some cosmic catastrophe would alter the planet's course in the meantime - not very likely to happen.

I would suggest using a special astrology software instead of a planetarium program, though (some terrific ones are freely available online) - much more convenient!

Using this information, it would seem that, right now, for people who will either be conceived or born in, let's say, Los Angeles on June 4, 2049 PST at 6:00 am, an astrologer would be able to tell us what's likely to happen in one of these persons lives on August 6, 2087 PST at 3:00 pm.

While this person isn't even born yet, I'm assuming that an astrologer would be able to say something about what's going to happen to them on August 6, 2087.  Furthermore, since the locations of the various stars and planet's can already be more or less be predicted for every moment of this persons life, right now, and since astrology is based upon the locations of the various stars and planet's at any point in time, then the events of this persons entire life can already be predicted using astrology.

Thus, astrology would predict everything that is to occur in this persons life and thus limit or completely eliminate any capability that a person has, in creating their reality.

Not so.

Let me give you a hypothetical example. Let's assume a person is born with Mars in an exact square (90 degrees angle) to Saturn. While no such angular relationship (generally called aspect) is seen as either entirely malevolent or benevolent, most astrologers would agree that this is likely going to be more of a challenging configuration for the native in their life. Let's further assume that both planets happen to be located in their own "domiciles" (i.e., Mars in Aries and Saturn in Capricorn), so they will roughly be of equal strength.

Now Mars in Aries suggests that this individual will have a talent for taking strong, decisive action. Taken by itself, it indicates that this is someone who really knows how to get things done. Also, they are probably not someone to mess with, as they may be prone to anger and impatience.

On the other hand, Saturn in Capricorn indicates a side of their character where they are exceptionally scrupulous and careful. That's the part of them that is meticulous and thinks twice before taking any step. It has written conscience and responsibility on its banner!

So we have a fierce warrior as well as a conscientious accountant in one and the same person - each acting from quite a different set of beliefs, as Seth would say.

Now if this individual is lacking insight and makes no attempt at a reconciliation, the continuing inner conflict will surely have some unfortunate consequences. They may be trying hard to control their savage impulses, repress and bottle them up, until one day a violent outbreak is the result. Without doubt, that kind of occurrence would be followed by feelings of severe guilt and a resolution to yet tighten the grip on themselves. At the same time, there would be a continuing sense of frustration that they are not able to move forward faster and more efficiently, as part of themselves keeps holding them back.

Let's now imagine what happens when at a certain - indeed calculable date - either Mars or Saturn (as they keep moving in the sky) forms a dynamic aspect to the Mars/Saturn square in this person's native chart and thus activates and accentuates it. Perhaps the unresolved conflict will be externalized and this unfortunate individual will hit a brick wall with their red sports car while driving at high speed. Or perhaps all those years of permanent struggle against their inner obstacles will eventually result now in a burnout now.

Was this predetermined and inevitable? By no means.

Let's assume now that this same individual gained some insight into their internal dynamics at an earlier time of their life. Maybe they happened to come across a copy of The Nature of Personal Reality and started examining their inner conflict. Let's assume that they managed to reconcile the respective positions of the warrior and the accountant in them sufficiently in order to make the two work together rather than against each other. Such an individual will still be able of powerful action, but will engage in it in a controlled and constructive manner.

Now as their natal chart's Mars/Saturn square is one day being activated by a transiting planet, they may find themselves in a position to demonstrate that  ability they have acquired to act in a decisive yet level headed manner. Perhaps, at a moment of crisis, they will save the day and find themselves in a leadership position.

And this will be the result of the choices they once deliberately made.

That's what I mean by deterministic.

- jbseth

Seth did not suggest that we create our own reality in an arbitrary fashion based on random decisions. Rather, he emphasized that, in order to become conscious creators, we need to become aware of the forces active in our psyche and resolve our inner conflicts.

What I shared is just one of the many ways astrology can - far from forcing us into the limiting mold of an allegedly predetermined fate - help us become more empowered to create our world in harmony with the true nature of our inner being.

[jbseth]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your reply and excellent example. 

I think the issue here, for me, goes to "belief".  Not "knowing", but rather "belief".


The Chinese have a zodiac system and in this system there are 12 animal symbols (Rat, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog and Pig) where each animal symbol represents a specific year, in a revolving 12 year cycle.

https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/chinese-zodiac/

In this system, each animal symbol represents some grouping of what I'll refer to as human personality characteristics.

It is believed that all people born within the year of, for example, the Rat, which is the animal symbol that represents the majority of the year 2020, all have the personality characteristics identified as those that are represented by the Rat symbol.

There's actually more involved in this but that is the "basic" idea that's behind this.

To me this belief system is kind of fun to think about, but I don't take it seriously. That is, to me, it doesn't seem "believable" that human personality characteristics have that much to do with a specific year of birth.

In a like manner, I have the same basic problem with astrology. To me, it doesn't seem "believable" that human personality characteristics and the like have that much to do with the specific locations of the stars and planets at the moment of a person's birth.

On the other hand, to me it does seem believable, that a psychic, using tarot cards, and their psychic gift, may be able to give a reasonable good prediction, of what is going to happen to a person tomorrow, based upon their psychic intuition and what tarot cards show up when they turn them over.


-jbseth

[Sena]

The Chinese have a zodiac system and in this system there are 12 animal symbols (Rat, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog and Pig) where each animal symbol represents a specific year, in a revolving 12 year cycle.

jbseth, I have only a very limited knowledge of the Chinese system, but it seems to me that there is some truth in it. It says that in marital relationships one animal is compatible with a certain other animal. My wife's animal matches my animal, and we have been married for 45 years, with a few ups and downs.
We did NOT consult any astrologer before our marriage. We only came across the Chinese horoscope several years later.

[LarryH]

Way back in the '70's, I came across a hilarious tongue-in-cheek astrological guide. I didn't remember exactly what it said, but I thought I may have remembered one line out of the list: "All tauruses are murderers". So I googled that line. I didn't get the tongue-in-cheek guide, but I did get this: "Study claims most serial killers are taurus": https://www.complex.com/life/2020/02/study-claims-most-serial-killers-taurus#:~:text=It%20looks%20like%20there's%20a,Taurus%2C%20according%20to%20The%20Mirror.

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your reply and excellent example. 

I think the issue here, for me, goes to "belief".  Not "knowing", but rather "belief".


The Chinese have a zodiac system and in this system there are 12 animal symbols (Rat, Ox, Tiger, Rabbit, Dragon, Snake, Horse, Goat, Monkey, Rooster, Dog and Pig) where each animal symbol represents a specific year, in a revolving 12 year cycle.

https://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/chinese-zodiac/

In this system, each animal symbol represents some grouping of what I'll refer to as human personality characteristics.

It is believed that all people born within the year of, for example, the Rat, which is the animal symbol that represents the majority of the year 2020, all have the personality characteristics identified as those that are represented by the Rat symbol.

There's actually more involved in this but that is the "basic" idea that's behind this.

To me this belief system is kind of fun to think about, but I don't take it seriously. That is, to me, it doesn't seem "believable" that human personality characteristics have that much to do with a specific year of birth.

In a like manner, I have the same basic problem with astrology. To me, it doesn't seem "believable" that human personality characteristics and the like have that much to do with the specific locations of the stars and planets at the moment of a person's birth.

On the other hand, to me it does seem believable, that a psychic, using tarot cards, and their psychic gift, may be able to give a reasonable good prediction, of what is going to happen to a person tomorrow, based upon their psychic intuition and what tarot cards show up when they turn them over.


-jbseth

jbseth,

The 12 animal symbols of the Chinese system as representatives of the people born in particular years are just a very crude system of classification. The Chinese have an intricate form of astrology called bazi that makes much more accurate statements about an individual.

There are other systems that attempt to deduce an individual's characteristics from the time they were born. For instance, there is a traditional Meso-American type of "astrology" based on the Mayan calendar. I didn't give it too much credit when I first looked into it, but was quickly blown away with the stunning insights it provided.

There is also a simple way to translate someone's date of birth into one or a few Tarot cards. I have done this more often than I could count, and I have yet to meet a person who could not immediately identify with their personal cards when I introduced the latter to them.

While hard to "prove", all these methods are based on well thought out cosmological systems that stood the test of time in their respective cultural context and serve as frameworks for a plenitude of psychospiritual and medical applications etc - they are not to be mistaken for the result of some arbitrary, superstitious assumptions.

Whether they are employing the movements of various celestial bodies or a numerological system tied to a certain calendar, the idea is to fathom the quality of any given moment in time. For in the ancient view, the flow of time is not only subject to measurement in terms of quantity, but also comes with constant change in terms of quality (chronos as opposed to kairos to the Greek).

While Seth did not talk about such connections too often, he did make some interesting statements in that regard, for example here:

These  serve  as  points  of  unity,  wherein  all  the  various  simultaneous selves  meet;  and  certain  seasonal  rhythms  are  involved  here  in  physical terms. (10:20.)  Do  you  want  a  break  now? ("No,  I  guess  not.  "  I  wasn't  too  sharp  this  evening,  though.) As  your  spaceships  to  the  moon  must  wait  for  the  most  effective  overall  conditions  before  taking  off,  so  in  other  terms  are  there  rhythms  having  to  do  with  energy.  Practically  speaking,  this  means  that  certain  times are  more  effective  than  others  for  these  communications  in  the  dream state.  Privately,  they  often  involve  illuminations  and  sudden  advantageous  decisions.  En  masse  they  imply  great  historical  changes. Take  your  break.
(10:24  to  10:35.) These  interchanges  represent  periods  in  which  the  soul  and  flesh meet  under  the  most  optimum  conditions.  There  are  individual  variations and  yet  mass  patterns.  The  energy  of  the  personal  self  constantly  comes from  the  entity.  There  is  not  just  one  intersection  of  soul  with  the  flesh, therefore,  but  at  the  least  a  constant  series  as  you  would  think  of  it. Because  of  the  characteristics  of  energy  as  it  impinges  upon  the  threedimensional  system,  there  are  fluctuations  —  always  involving  your present. These  cycles  merge  at  several  points,  so  that  you  do  have  major changes  in  all  areas  in  any  span  of  two  thousand  years.  For  other  reasons and  in  a  smaller  context,  the  month  of  August  is  highly  significant  in  a twenty-five  year  sequence.  Within  this,  a  seven-year  period  is  important individually.  These  are  simply  rhythms  depicting  the  greatest  impact  of spirit  as  it  intersects  with  flesh  and  time. In  physical  terms  the  tides  and  geographical  aspects  are  involved, but  these  are  "effects"  having  to  do  with  curves  of  energy  of  which  consciousness  is  composed.  These  rhythms  are  minutely  but  perfectly  reflected  in  other  ways.  The  seventh  dream  of  any  given  night  is  the  most important  —  not  (louder,  smiling)  that  anyone  is  counting,  and  say  I  said it  humorously.

NoPR, chapter 19, session 668

[jbseth]

Hi Michael,

Oh Excellent! 

Yes, I've always loved his comments about the 2,000 year cycle and the comments about August.

For some reason, some intuitive part of me has always sensed that August is a "power" month for me.
I began to recognize this several years before I discovered Seth, (I discovered Seth in the late 1970's).

In the book,  "The Magical Approach" Seth talks about "Assembly Line Time verses Natural Creative Time" and I love what he has to say about time in regards to natures cycles (the tides and what not). I sense the truth to what he says hear about time and cycles and whose to say, perhaps there are also natural cycles in regards to the movements of the stars and planets.


I'm glad that you participate here in this forum. I really enjoy your insights. 

-jbseth

[Sena]

The  energy  of  the  personal  self  constantly  comes from  the  entity.

Michael, thanks for drawing our attention to Seth Session 668. This is the continuation of that session:

"Apexes are therefore formed within each self. These apexes serve as attractions, now opened, through which the magnified potency of the entity can flow. This may appear as erratic energy, however, an analogy being sunspots. Psychologically, great ferment occurs, and often the individual personalities involved organize themselves along new lines. Privately this is when human beings find themselves aware of greater illumination, when they make sudden decisions and experience new strengths. Now such a time is in the offing socially. This may be reflected in periods of seeming unrest in which, however, new creativity is looming. There will then be great planetary changes in terms of your organizations, but these will reflect private interior illuminations that become physically materialized. (More powerfully:) You do not trust your inner selves enough, or realize the creative ferment brewing. If you did you could save yourselves much trouble." (from "The Nature of Personal Reality: Specific, Practical Techniques for Solving Everyday Problems and Enriching the Life You Know (A Seth Book)" by Jane Roberts)

[Michael Sternbach]

Hi Michael,

Oh Excellent! 

Yes, I've always loved his comments about the 2,000 year cycle and the comments about August.

Seth's 2000-year cycle may well refer to the astrological World Ages, each of which lasts roughly that long. Astrologers assume that the Pisces Age started more or less at the time of Jesus Christ, whose religion bears characteristics typical of that star sign. And that now we stand at the threshold of the Aquarius Age, whose properties can already be felt and seen in so many ways.

For some reason, some intuitive part of me has always sensed that August is a "power" month for me.
I began to recognize this several years before I discovered Seth, (I discovered Seth in the late 1970's).

In the book,  "The Magical Approach" Seth talks about "Assembly Line Time verses Natural Creative Time" and I love what he has to say about time in regards to natures cycles (the tides and what not). I sense the truth to what he says hear about time and cycles and whose to say, perhaps there are also natural cycles in regards to the movements of the stars and planets.

It is no exaggeration to say that their movements are all about cycles. The zodiac itself is essentially nothing but the Sun's apparent annual course around the Earth, subdivided on the basis of the former's positions at the beginning of the seasons and his interactions with the Moon. For the Moon generally forms twelve conjunctions and oppositions respectively with the Sun (i.e., New Moons and Full Moons respectively) in the course of a year, and this was likely the foundation for dividing the zodiac into twelve sectors (aka signs), and the year into twelve months respectively.

Furthermore, there exist some peculiar numerical relationships between the cycles of the two luminaries and those of the planets of our solar system as well as between the latter themselves. These cycles are intensely studied by astrologers, as they are linked to both individual and mass events.

One's native chart can then be said to be a snapshot of the sky at the time of one's birth, as though the patterns of the ever changing macrocosmos had become fixated in the form of a human microcosmos. However, it is considered that the macrocosmic celestial bodies' cyclical movements continue on the microscopic level, so to speak, and can be calculated based on certain ratios assumed to exist between the two. Some of astrology's predictive methods are based on that.

But we also consider the continuous movements of the celestial bodies per se and relate them to the native chart in the way of an ongoing relationship between macrocosmos and microcosmos.

There you have astrology's underlying theory in a nutshell. 

I'm glad that you participate here in this forum. I really enjoy your insights. 

-jbseth

Thanks! I really enjoy being here and talking with you guys.

[inavalan]

I don't use astrology, but I am familiar with many aspects of it.

I think there are two different aspects about astrology:

• why should stars' configuration at birth determine, influence aspects of one's personality, and of their life experience
• how should astrological signs be interpreted (horoscopes, ...)

https://nowdictation.com/q/astrology/