Is the physical system an illusion according to Seth?

[Sena]

There seem to somewhat contradictory statements by Seth on this topic.

"The physical system is an illusion, but you must accept it and from your viewpoint try to understand the realities that exist beyond it."(The Seth Material)

From <https://engineering.purdue.edu/~andy/seth.html>

It seems to me that The Seth Material is less reliable than some of the other books, because it gives us Jane's interpretation of Seth rather than Seth's verbatim statements. The session numbers are not clearly stated in The Seth Material.

Compare the above quote with these statements from two other Seth Books:

"It is not that physical reality is false. It is that the physical picture is simply one of
an infinite number of ways of perceiving the various guises through which
consciousness expresses itself. The physical senses force you to translate experience into physical perceptions. The inner senses open your range of perception, allow you to interpret experience in a far freer manner and to create new forms and new channels through which you, or any consciousness, can know itself." (Seth Speaks)

From <https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-56rRUG-ov0xn05ih/Jane%20Roberts%20-%20Seth%20Speaks_djvu.txt>

"The physical reality into which you are born is not nearly as solid or predetermined or definite as it appears to be.  Instead there is a field of rich interaction.  Your consciousness must be focused at one particular range of frequencies before it can even perceive matter, much less solidity.  In sleep your consciousness fluctuates between ranges of intensities, literally flowing into and out of the physical-matter grouping, and forming from more plastic pre-matter stages, the final shape that matter will take in your world." (NOPR, 20;413)

From <http://www.execonn.com/matt/Docs/SETH99.htm>

"Now at times I will be using the term "camouflage," referring to the physical world to which the outer ego relates, for physical form is one of the camouflages that reality adopts. The camouflage is real, and yet there is a much greater reality within it - the vitality that gave it form. Your physical senses then allow you to perceive this camouflage, for they are attuned to it in a highly specialized manner. But to sense the reality within the form requires a different sort of attention, and more delicate manipulations than the physical senses provide." (Seth Speaks)

From <https://archive.org/stream/pdfy-56rRUG-ov0xn05ih/Jane%20Roberts%20-%20Seth%20Speaks_djvu.txt>

To summarize, my understanding of Seth is that he is NOT saying that the physical system is an illusion. The physical system is "camouflage", but camouflage is not an illusion. The dictionary definitions of camouflage are "concealment by means of disguise" or "behavior or artifice designed to deceive or hide".

[sethspeaks]

Have you heard of a lucid dream? If yes, have you remembered a physical reality in your dream? If yes, did you understand what is dream in a dream? Did you ever dream of someone and someone dreamed the same dream about you?
Different realities are connected by consciousness. What is the physical reality then? It is not separated from other realities.
I do not know if you are exploring your dreams, but this can not be learned by heart. It must be experienced ..

[Deb]

My take is that everything is composed of energy or CUs or what-have-you. Matter is energy molded into objects by us. We are each creating our own personal version of reality which camouflages the "real" reality ("the physical picture is simply one of an infinite number of ways of perceiving the various guises through which consciousness expresses itself"), which we observe using our outer senses. There are also some constants we agree to on a mass level.

To summarize, my understanding of Seth is that he is NOT saying that the physical system is an illusion.

I did think about the definition of illusion when we were talking about illusion earlier. Maybe it's just a matter of word interpretation. Illusion is defined as "a deceptive appearance or impression" or "a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses." So in that respect I don't see the words illusion and camouflage as necessarily contradictory.

This quote has been stuck in my mind. For me it demonstrates the level of illusion we're dealing with:

"The murderer kills no one, yet if his intent is to do so then he must face the consequences of his intent. Crime after death is not punished. There is no crime to be punished..."—TES8 Session 397 March 6, 1968

Have you heard of a lucid dream?

I had an "aha" recently regarding creating reality in dreams and creating reality while awake. I'd had several lucid dreams in the past and for a while was exploring the dream reality (taste tests, smell tests, looking in mirrors, manipulating reality). I've constantly been blown away by the level of detail in my dreams. I look at objects (books, magazines, fabrics, buildings, my surroundings) and constantly ask myself, this is a dream, how am I creating all of this in such detail?

Then it dawned on me that if I am creating everything around me while "awake," then doing it while I'm dreaming is not a big deal. I've been doing it in both realms all my life.

"Dreams are no more hallucinatory than your physical life is. Your waking physical self is the dreamer, as far as your dreaming self is concerned: You are the dreamer it sends on its way. Your daily experiences are the dreams that it dreams, so when you look at your dreaming self or consider it, you do so with a highly prejudiced eye, taking it for granted that your "reality" is real, and its reality is illusion."
—SS Chapter 10: Session 538, June 29, 1970

[sethspeaks]

I will try to explain it differently.
When I go buy an picture from a painter. Am I interested in the price of the colors that painter used or the quality of the canvas? Or am I interested in the inside information of picture? This inner information may come from dreams, hallucinations, or visions. This information comes from nonphysical reality, however it is the most important in physical realization - when we are physically buying the picture.
This is my preview but Seth has often used an example with painters.

[Batfan007]

My take is that everything is composed of energy or CUs or what-have-you. Matter is energy molded into objects by us. We are each creating our own personal version of reality which camouflages the "real" reality ("the physical picture is simply one of an infinite number of ways of perceiving the various guises through which consciousness expresses itself"), which we observe using our outer senses. There are also some constants we agree to on a mass level.

To summarize, my understanding of Seth is that he is NOT saying that the physical system is an illusion.

I did think about the definition of illusion when we were talking about illusion earlier. Maybe it's just a matter of word interpretation. Illusion is defined as "a deceptive appearance or impression" or "a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses." So in that respect I don't see the words illusion and camouflage as necessarily contradictory.

This quote has been stuck in my mind. For me it demonstrates the level of illusion we're dealing with:

"The murderer kills no one, yet if his intent is to do so then he must face the consequences of his intent. Crime after death is not punished. There is no crime to be punished..."—TES8 Session 397 March 6, 1968

Have you heard of a lucid dream?

I had an "aha" recently regarding creating reality in dreams and creating reality while awake. I'd had several lucid dreams in the past and for a while was exploring the dream reality (taste tests, smell tests, looking in mirrors, manipulating reality). I've constantly been blown away by the level of detail in my dreams. I look at objects (books, magazines, fabrics, buildings, my surroundings) and constantly ask myself, this is a dream, how am I creating all of this in such detail?

Then it dawned on me that if I am creating everything around me while "awake," then doing it while I'm dreaming is not a big deal. I've been doing it in both realms all my life.

"Dreams are no more hallucinatory than your physical life is. Your waking physical self is the dreamer, as far as your dreaming self is concerned: You are the dreamer it sends on its way. Your daily experiences are the dreams that it dreams, so when you look at your dreaming self or consider it, you do so with a highly prejudiced eye, taking it for granted that your "reality" is real, and its reality is illusion."
—SS Chapter 10: Session 538, June 29, 1970

Your first paragraph sums it up pretty well.

Consciousness creates the physical reality individually and en mass.

The physical reality is the stage upon which we act.

And I do so enjoy a good show. 🎬

[Sena]

Coordinate points are real. They are NOT illusion or camouflage.
We already have a thread on coordinate points:

https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=701.0

[Batfan007]

An addendum that Seth mentions at various times: (NOT a quote, just a topic) whatever experiences we have in life real or unreal, we perceive through / tinted by the camouflage

If I look through a stain glass window, at a person on the other side, they appear to look rainbow colored. But they are not. So is the glass "real" is the appearance of them as some rainbow-colored being "real"? Is what our eyes are telling us "real". Of course it is, but our intelligence tells us that if we look on the other side of the stained glass, we will see that person without that filter. But then we still seem them through the filter of our beliefs, their beliefs and our camouflage reality.
But the same essence is behind all appearances.

To me it's a bit of a pointless question to ask.
If I go to the cinema and watch a movie, my focus is on the movie not asking "is this Reality". and this life is a bit like a movie, big mental projection. We can enjoy and learn from it, while also knowing that each layer of reality is "real" at it's own level, but wrapped up inside many other layers of reality. Holons within holons.

These are only examples and can not accurately describe "Reality" which in my experience is personal, ever-changing, fluid and dynamic and never static.

[Sena]

We can enjoy and learn from it, while also knowing that each layer of reality is "real" at it's own level, but wrapped up inside many other layers of reality.

Batfan, I agree that is better way of putting it than to think "everything is an illusion". When we think that everything is an illusion we are telling ourselves that physical reality has no significance. Physical reality is actually very useful to us because it enables us to learn how thoughts and emotions create it.

"The human race is a stage through which various forms of consciousness travel... Yours is a training system for emerging consciousness. Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open, you must first learn to handle energy and see through physical materialization, the concrete result of thought and emotion."

http://sethquotes.paradisenow.net/seth_excerpts_part_iii.html

"You are meant to judge physical reality. You are meant to realize that it is a materialization of your thoughts and feelings and images, that the inner self forms that world. In your terms, you cannot be allowed to go into other dimensions until you have learned the great power of your thoughts and subjective feelings." (The Unknown Reality, Session 742, Notes 1)

http://www.sethlearningcenter.org/q_create_reality.html

"Many people, therefore, tell themselves that they are very impatient to discover the nature and extent of the psyche, and cannot understand why they meet with so little success. [...] If you cannot honestly encounter the dimensions of your creaturehood, you surely cannot explore the greater dimensions of the psyche."
—The Nature of the Psyche Chapter 3: Session 764, January 26, 1976

[LenKop]

When we think that everything is an illusion we are telling ourselves that physical reality has no significance.

I agree. And furthermore, we are also telling ourselves that WE have no significance.

Len

[Deb]

Seth never says that the everything is an illusion.

Not everything, everywhere in reality, but here on this physical plane:

"The physical system is an illusion, but you must accept it and from your viewpoint try to understand the realities that exist beyond it. The illusions are real because they exist."
Future Seth, The Seth Material, chapter 17 (pg. 230 of New Awareness printing)

It may be session 419, as a couple of pages prior to the quote Jane says, "some of our questions were answered in the next session, our 419th on June 8, 1968." Maybe I can track that down.

So is my interpretation off base?

"Illusion: a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses."

To me, it means that the true nature (underpinnings) of reality is camouflaged, disguised, in this plane of existence. Take for instance an optical illusion: it's something that "tricks the eyes by appearing to be other than it is." It's not that something does not exist, it is that we are not seeing things for what they are. Illusion doesn't have a negative connotation to me any more than camouflage does. It does not mean to me that our 3D reality has no purpose, meaning or significance (and therefore neither do we). We are here for a purpose, we chose to be here, this is a place of learning and expansion. We are learning and practicing skills of creation. My reality feels real to me. I can't walk through a wall or make my desk disappear. On my deepest level, I don't believe I can. I live my days, watch the sun rise and set, travel, pretty much take advantage of every opportunity I can in this reality. I don't want to miss a thing. Well, except for bungie jumping.

What I've learned from Seth and other teachers is that I gratefully signed up for the opportunity to be here, in this earth reality. In doing so, I accepted the terms and conditions of the amnesia, thinking my reality is concrete, dealing with my sometimes fumbling of creations, hard lessons learned, mistakes sometimes repeated. I do the same on a lesser and more temporary level when I get completely sucked into a good movie, to borrow John's analogy. My all-time favorite movie is Love Actually. I've watched it many times, and still it makes me laugh, cry, feel real affection for the characters. For 2+ hours I suspend my belief and the events and characters become real for a little while.

The older I get, the stronger my desire to get a handle on conscious creation. I recognize the evidence of my creations all the time, but I'm still learning. Yet I'm making progress, now that I'm learning what this is about.

By the way, I'm attaching Andy Hughes's (one of the original students) paper on Seth's concepts to this old topic. It has some great information on Seth, his purpose, purpose in general, in one neat package.

[Michael Sternbach]

When we think that everything is an illusion we are telling ourselves that physical reality has no significance.

I agree. And furthermore, we are also telling ourselves that WE have no significance.

Len

Yes. I am encountering this attitude all the time on another forum with a lot of Buddhists.

I think we must be careful not to read Seth's respective statements as depreciative of physical reality, which he certainly wasn't. He just wanted us to expand our perception of what is there.

And despite aforementioned experiences with some nihilistic Buddhists, when I was in Japan visiting Zen temples with their stunningly beautiful gardens, I felt they were among the most lively and affirmative places I had ever been to.

[Sena]

Seth had some interesting things to say about "the flesh", which is obviously a part of physical reality:

"God knows itself through the flesh. God may know itself through a million or a thousand million other worlds, as so may I — but because this world is, and because I am alive in it, it is more than appearance, more than a shackle to be thrown aside. It is a privilege to be here, to look out with this unique focus, with these individual eyes; not to be blinded by cosmic vision, but to see this corner of reality which I form through the miraculous connections of soul and flesh."
—The Unknown Reality 2 Appendix 15: (For Session 710)

"All portions of the body's reality are versions in flesh of the soul's reality, even as all segments of the exterior universe mirror an internal one."
—NoPR Chapter 7: Session 631, December 18, 1972

"The flesh that seemed so solid turns out to be composed of swiftly moving particles — often orbiting each other — in which great exchanges of energy continually occur."
—NoPR Chapter 2: Session 614, September 13, 1972

• "You may follow one of the schools of Buddhism in which great stress is laid upon the denial of the body, discipline of the flesh, and the avoidance of desire."

• "Philosophies that teach denial of the flesh must ultimately end up preaching a denial of the self and building a contempt for it, because even though the soul is couched in muscle and bone it is meant to experience that reality, not to refute it."

—NoPR Chapter 12: Session 647, March 12, 1973

[Deb]

"You may follow one of the schools of Buddhism in which great stress is laid upon the denial of the body, discipline of the flesh, and the avoidance of desire."

• "Philosophies that teach denial of the flesh must ultimately end up preaching a denial of the self and building a contempt for it, because even though the soul is couched in muscle and bone it is meant to experience that reality, not to refute it."

—NoPR Chapter 12: Session 647, March 12, 1973

Wow, this really ties in well with what Michael said about Buddhists in another forum. Seth has always stressed the value and validity of our physical existence in this reality.

From the Andy Hughes document, also a nice revelation as to "why Seth" :

("The Seth Material" chapter 17, paragraph 83) 
I come here, as an (humorously) "endearing" personality, with characteristics to which I hope you can relate. These characteristics are mine, and I am who I say I am, and yet the Seth you know is but a small part of my reality, the one that has been physical, and can relate to your problems.

And he is very endearing.

[sethspeaks]

These characteristics are mine, and I am who I say I am,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am