Did Seth teach pantheism?

[Sena]

Sena, I don't know how you can agree with Caleb in your last post while disagreeing with my quote in the previous post.

Larry, I did not disagree with you. It looks as if you imagined that I disagreed with you.

[LarryH]

Now THAT is interesting to me. I know you have a knack for finding typos. Where did you see that Larry? I couldn't find it. I'm dying to check Mary's Rob transcripts/published book comparisons.

This is weird because I looked for the quote above and could not find it. I could swear that someone was quoting Seth including the phrase, "the pin of the needle" and thought to myself that it sounded redundant. But all I could find was Tob's statement below (NOT a Seth quote):

One should not start the next generation of the 'how many angels fit the tip of a needle'- discussion.

There is nothing redundant about "the tip of a needle", it's just not the common reference to the opposite end of the needle (how many angels can fit on the HEAD of a needle). But I specifically remember reading "the pin of a needle." Clearly a glitch in the matrix, proving that we are in an artificial reality created by aliens.

[barrie]

I am not questioning the fact that you have read the entire section with great care. It is our interpretation which is different.

Sena Had Written: "Perhaps you are at a disadvantage in not having the Kindle edition of the book. Dividing up Seth's paragraphs into sentences does not really help. The following is the relevant section in a single paragraph;"

Barrie Comments: That is what seemed to me to be your questioning if I read the full paragraph...which was not even one paragraph, by the way, but many paragraphs. If you believe that I read the whole thing, then what "disadvantage" was I at?

[Tob]

You are the creator of your own reality. And it is a camouflage reality reflecting your beliefs, thoughts and emotions.

I found this compilation of Seth statements on the internet. It is about the creation of matter (in F1).

SETH Creation of Matter By Seth/Jane Roberts http://educate-yourself.org/mbc/sethcreationofmatter.shtml http://www.geocities.com/sethtalk/idea_cm.htm

Seth says that this is something we all do. "You form the camouflage world or appearances with the same part of you that breathes." Session 23, p.167 , The Early Sessions, Book 1 "The physical world that you recognize is made up of invisible patterns. These patterns are "plastic," in that while they exist, their final form is a matter of probabilities directed by consciousness. Your senses perceive these patterns in their own ways." Session 803, p.29 , The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events "Emotions, instead of propelling a physical rocket, for example, send thoughts from this interior reality through the barrier between nonphysical and physical into the "objective" world -- no small feat, and one that is constantly repeated." Session 625, p.95 , The Nature of Personal Reality "The intensity of a feeling or thought or mental image is, therefore, the important element in determining its subsequent physical materialization." Session 525, p.66, Seth Speaks "The inner senses were always paramount in evolutionary development, being the impetus behind the physical formations; and themselves, through the use of mental enzymes, imprinting the data contained in the mental genes onto the physical camouflage material." Session 26, p.198 , The Early Sessions, Book 1 "Suggestion is no more and no less than an inner willingness and consent to allow a particular action to occur; and this consent is the trigger which sets off the subconscious mechanisms that allow you to construct inner data into physical reality." Session 68, p.215, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "A primary construction is a psychic gestalt, formed into matter by a consciousness of itself. Such a primary construction is an attempt to create, in the world of matter, a replica of the inner psychic construction of the whole self." Session 71, p.239, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Secondary physical constructions are those created by a consciousness of its conception of other consciousnesses, from data received through telepathy and other means." Session 71, p.240, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "In all cases consciousness is first, and it forms its physical constructions according to its abilities, first of all forming its own primary construction, and then brancing outward, constucting secondary images of other ocnsciousnesses with whom it comes in contact." Session 71, p.241, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "These simple remarks will themselves be the basis for further rather involved discussions, as the mechanisms that are set into motion in such mental or psychic manipulation of matter have never really been explained. Remember however that such psychic manipulation of matter is the normal occurrence. It is however usually operating at subconscious levels, and without either knowledge or intent as far as the conscious mind is concerned. To be able to bring these natural but subconscious forces at all under any domination by the conscious mind is a terrific task. Such domination will never be habitual, but conscious awareness of subconscious manipulation of matter may become habitual, and may often of its own accord follow the desires of the conscious mind, if certain conditions are met. First of all, the conscious desires must be in league with, and unopposed by, subconscious expectations. Two, sufficient emotional impetus must be discharged, and this will be on or from subconscious levels. And three, communication between the conscious and subconscious, or the inner and so-called outer parts of the whole self, must be excellent." Session 81, p.305, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Prayer has been extremely successful in enabling individuals to manipulate matter through use of their psychic abilities." Session 81, p.307, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "There are certain points in time and space, therefore, (again in your terms), that are more conducive than others, where both ideas and matter will more be highly charged. Practically speaking, this means that buildings will last longer, in your context, that ideas wedded to form will be relatively eternal. The pyramids, for example, are a case in point." Session 524, p.64, Seth Speaks "To make this clearer, look at any table in the room before you. It is physical, solid, and you perceive it easily. Now for an analogy, imagine if you can that behind the table is another just like it, but not quite as physical, and behind that one another, and another behind that -- each one more difficult to perceive, fading into invisibility. And in front of the table is a table just like it, only a bit less physical appearing than the "real" table -- it also having a succession of even less physical tables extending outward. And tghe same for each side of the table. Now anything that appears in physical terms also exists in other terms that you do not perceive. You only perceive realities when they achieve a certain "pitch", when they seem to coalesce into matter. But they actually exist, and quite validly at other levels." Session 530, p.87, Seth Speaks "Emotions then, in their own realm unperceived by the outer senses, have their own solidity, shape, and it is from these that your expectations are formed. The emotions indeed do form the expectations, and it is not the other way around. As physical objects can be manipulated, so can the emotions be manipulated, so can they be combined into various shapes and psychic constructions, A man"s expectations are the result of his emotional heritage, and his own ability to understand and manipulate that heritage." Session 76, p. 275, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Again, expectations are not only vital in the formation of physical constructions, but they also determine what inner data of all available, will be received by the individual; and then the individual interprets the data in terms of the same expectations. The core of individuality, then, is the individual"s expectations, for he will truly get what he wants, individually and collectively. If a man wants to change his fate, desire is not enough, but expectation is. Desire may grow into expectation, but alone it is not enough. Expectation is actually the main trigger that switches inner data into the realm of physical construction. Without it, no physical construction results." Session 76, p.276, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Expectation is the force, then, that triggers psychic realities into physical construction." Session 76, p.276, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Expectations are formed by the emotions then, it is obviously the basic emotions themselves that must be manipulated, since the expectations are the frameworks formed by the emotions. This is the starting point" Session 76, p.277, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "Emotional power behind your expectations powers your expectations into physical reality." Session 76, p.278, The Early Sessions, Book 2 "What you call suggestion is indeed expectation." Session 160, p.70, The Early Sessions, Book 4 "...you construct your physical universe and your private environment in line with your inner expectations, for they mirror perfectly the deepest areas of your own inner reality." Session 253, p.114, The Early Sessions, Book 6 "So your soul, that which you are, constructs your physical daily reality for you from the nature of your thoughts and expectations. You can readily see, therefore how important your subjective feelings really are." Session 527, p.79, Seth Speaks "We have spoken of expectations. These, you see, are electrical realities which may explain their importance; for you not only sometimes predict so called future events, but you create their actuality within the electrical field, and therefore insure their existence one way or another within the physical field." Session 127, p.240, The Early Sessions, Book 3 "If you direct your inner self with confidence to steer you through your physical existence, it will do so. If you concentrate upon difficulties you will not allow it to do so." Session 220, p.189, The Early Sessions, Book

[Sena]

If you believe that I read the whole thing, then what "disadvantage" was I at?

Hi Barrie, the only disadvantage is that it is laborious to copy out text manually from a print book, whereas it is possible to send large chunks of text to email from Kindle.

The main point is that you have not responded to my last post addressed to you on what I think is an important issue.

It is a pity that you seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you. That is absolutely not my intention. There would not be much point in a forum if everyone is expected to agree with everyone else all the time.

[barrie]

The main point is that you have not responded to my last post addressed to you on what I think is an important issue.

It is a pity that you seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you. That is absolutely not my intention. There would not be much point in a forum if everyone is expected to agree with everyone else all the time.

Sena, I did not see any post. I would have and will gladly respond if I can find it in this growing number of posts.

Also, I do not and did not take your comment as a personal attack in ANY way whatsoever. I was only curious...as I stated...I couldn't understand your point. So, I asked for clarification. Not understanding something and wanting to understand it--is not taking something as a personal attack.

Also, I WELCOME disagreement as much as agreement. One important way to learn, grow and evolve IS thru disagreement. For me, it gives me the chance to evaluate and/or reevaluate what I believe and why, explore it from various angles that I may never have come up with on my own--and BETTER understand myself and the Seth material.

[Sena]

Sena, I did not see any post. I would have and will gladly respond if I can find it in this growing number of posts.

Barrie, thanks for your reply. This is my post I am referring to:

https://speakingofseth.com/index.php/topic,2505.msg21114.html#msg21114

Seth Continues: This then is the dilemma of any primary pyramid gestalt. He creates reality, period. Now. He also recognized within each consciousness massive potential that existed. The means then came to him. He must release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream.

Barrie Comments: Again THIS is the COSMIC DILEMMA: To PHYSICALIZE or NOT PHYSICALIZE and remain NONPHYSICAL. The answer: PHYSICALIZE – "He MUST release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream."

This is where we differ. The dilemma of All That Is was whether or not to "release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream". How i understand this is that All That Is had to decide whether or not to allow independent existence to these creatures. Once they have independent existence, each creature can decide whether of not to choose physical exitence.

My understanding of the Seth teaching is that we all existed in the "spirit world" (? Framework 2) before we decided to opt for physical exitence. Some personalities may never decide to opt for physical existence. Did Seth Two ever have physical existence?

Also, I do not and did not take your comment as a personal attack in ANY way whatsoever.

I am glad that has been cleared up.

[barrie]

Seth Continues: This then is the dilemma of any primary pyramid gestalt. He creates reality, period. Now. He also recognized within each consciousness massive potential that existed. The means then came to him. He must release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream.

Barrie Comments: Again THIS is the COSMIC DILEMMA: To PHYSICALIZE or NOT PHYSICALIZE and remain NONPHYSICAL. The answer: PHYSICALIZE – "He MUST release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream."

This is where we differ. The dilemma of All That Is was whether or not to "release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream". How i understand this is that All That Is had to decide whether or not to allow independent existence to these creatures. Once they have independent existence, each creature can decide whether of not to choose physical exitence.

My understanding of the Seth teaching is that we all existed in the "spirit world" (? Framework 2) before we decided to opt for physical exitence. Some personalities may never decide to opt for physical existence. Did Seth Two ever have physical existence?

Sena Writes: This is where we differ. The dilemma of All That Is was whether or not to "release the creatures and the probabilities from his dream". How i understand this is that All That Is had to decide whether or not to allow independent existence to these creatures. Once they have independent existence, each creature can decide whether of not to choose physical existence.

Barrie Responds: I believe I have, in part, inadvertently addressed SOME of this...one day before your post. So FIRST let's look at what I had written on 11-24-21:
-----------------
Barrie Wrote (11-24-21) "For those who like it short and sweet...my thoughts at this moment:

I believe that the Cosmic Dilemma concerned creating F1.

F2, F3 and whatever nonphysical realities already existed...but there was no F1...or did they. BUT there definitely was no F1.

All creatures and probabilities existed in God's dream. Was this F2 or F3 or F10 are all of them. In any case, there was no F1. I believe that F1 was needed in order to actualize, release and free what was in God's dream.

So, the agony and the Cosmic Dilemma involved the creation of F1...that did not yet exist. And of course, FROM F1 we still go into and blink in and out of F2, etc--which we never actually left.

So, the question is...did actuality create F1, F2, F3, F4 etc etc... or just F1 with the others already in existence?

God's dream existed--and this was a framework within which were the creatures and probabilities that needed more.
-----------------

Barrie NOW Responds: So, let's bring this back to your 11-25-21 post and I'll answer you as we go along:

The question is: Did the creatures in God's dream have an independent existence to think and create etc—while IN God's dream state—but had no F1 in order to further expand and create? I say yes.

Seth said that the probable realities where multiplying etc—and the dream state couldn't contain it all—so God wanted to give them actuality. I believe the growing probable realities and other things Seth said show that the creatures DID have an independence in the dream state. If you would like to discuss this more, then I will find the excerpts.

Anyway, given what I have just stipulated, the questions now are:

1. Did God MAKE his dream creatures physical in the newly-created F1--freeing them from the dream state?

2. OR as you, Sena, say: After they were freed...did they still remain in F2 or their own dream state—altho they NOW had the choice to physicalize themselves in the new F1 or not.

I believe I have summed up both of our positions. If not, please clarify.

Sena Continues: My understanding of the Seth teaching is that we all existed in the "spirit world" (? Framework 2) before we decided to opt for physical existence. Some personalities may never decide to opt for physical existence.

Barrie Responds: Given what you say here, I agree with. We all exist in the timeless F2--and from there we send forth our focal personalities into the various linear time periods in F1.

From THIS perspective, I will explore my original comments.

So, IF the Cosmic Dilemma was to create F1, or create the physical dimension...
--then IF the people in God's dream chose NOT to physicalize—"where" would they be?
--Still in God's dream?
--In an F2 OUTSIDE of God's dream?
--Would this be a newly-created F2?
--Did God just make them all physical while still having their natural connection to F2—and now they had to deal with it all while now being physical?

I'm not sure about these answers yet. But they are very interesting to ponder. I will continue to explore.

Sena Continues: Did Seth Two ever have physical existence?

Barrie Comments: Seth2 is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. In a totally different ball park.

According to Seth, Seth2 gave us the blue-prints about how to create F1 in the first place. Taught us HOW to create our own reality within F1.

IF, Seth2 gave us the blueprints to create F1, then how does that fit in with God's Dilemma? Who created F1? Which now gets us back to—what does "actuality" mean as Seth uses the term? What was the agony? Why would God go insane if he didn't "free" those in his dream?

The question may be: Did Seth PRECEDE God? Did God create Seth2 OR did Seth2 create God?

Look at what Seth2 said in class:

Seth2 (ESP Class, 7-19-71): "Our perception allows us to tune into the particular fantasies that you perceive as one indivisible reality. We can perceive it, but WE CANNOT PARTICIPATE ONLY OBSERVE that which, in your terms – eons ago we helped create as you are now continuing in what you might call dreams our fantasies now do create..."

Seth2 (ESP Class, 4-20-71): "We move through systems such as yours faster than the speed of light, and so what I am saying is already a translation and, in your terms, a message left in the past of your time..."

Barrie Comments: Jane could only go so far to "reach" S2...and could not directly reach Seth2. Besides that, Seth2 had no language or thoughts we could recognize. Seth2 is so removed and "distant" from Seth and humans and our dimension...that Seth was needed meet Seth2 halfway and to translate for Jane—what Seth 2 was saying.

For example, here is just one more example of Seth2:

Seth2 (ESP Class, 5-28-68): "To me, your universe is perhaps as a star might appear to you...I transmit information to Seth, who then interprets it for Ruburt. The information that I have would not be understandable to you in my terms, and therefore must be interpreted and translated.

"I have not been [a] personality acquainted with your own reality or with your system or with your dimension. Seth, however, has. He is therefore in a position to translate the information which I then impart...

"What you experience as emotion I experience in a sort of mathematical intensity, and translate..."

Barrie Comments: So...how about them apples thrown into the mix!

Here is a partial list of just some of Seth2 claims:

1.    We gave you mental images and upon these images you learned to form the world that you know.

2.    We gave you the pattern by which your physical selves are formed.

3.    We gave you the pattern by which you learned to form your physical reality.

4.    We gave you the patterns intricate, involved and blessed from which you form the reality of each physical thing you know.

5.    The most minute cell within your brain has been made from the patterns of consciousness which we have given you.

6.    We gave you the pattern upon which you formed your entire physical universe and the comprehension that exists within each cell, the knowledge that each cell has, the desire for organization was given by us.

7.    We are involved in forming creations, realities, consciousness -- worlds beyond your comprehension.

8.    We form the realities, we give birth to universes.

9.    We have always watched, we are the watchers and the protectors, and you have never been alone.

10.    You are being allowed freedom within limits.

11.    We are highly interested in such experiments as Seth is conducting.

12.    We move through systems such as yours faster than the speed of light.

13.    Since we seeded the universe in which you have your present existence then do we observe, and do we watch, and do we have concern.

14. We seeded your god.

Barrie Comments: So, where does all this leave us with exploring the Cosmic Dilemma?

Does the concept of Seth2 not being physical--relate to the dilemma of giving humans the choice to be physical or not?

According to all, they needed to be taught how to create the physical dimension. Was THIS the actuality?

So the questions remain:

Does Seth2 "precede" God?
How does Seth2 fit in or not fit in with the Cosmic Dilemma?

PS: This just took me more than 2 hours to write.

[Caleb Murdock]

I'm not encouraged that the discussion in this thread is now on who said what when, and whose interpretation of the Material is the most accurate.  Seth was vastly more clear and specific than, say, Edgar Cayce was, but when Seth talks in broad terms, like he does of the creation event, it doesn't make sense to argue the specifics.

I have to say this, though:  The impression that I was left with from reading the books is that physicality is more the exception than the norm in the universe, meaning the greater Whole that contains the multiple universes within it.  But we can't be sure because Seth didn't give us percentages.

Of course, for us to be arguing about whether the Universe is a mostly physical or nonphysical place is kind of silly given that we are physical creatures and don't remember what it feels like to be in a spiritual form.

[barrie]

Of course, for us to be arguing about whether the Universe is a mostly physical or nonphysical place is kind of silly given that we are physical creatures and don't remember what it feels like to be in a spiritual form.

Caleb, No one is arguing anything at all. We are DISCUSSING the Cosmic Dilemma and what it may or may not entail. It is nothing about who said what when. Any dates mentioned are for clarification. Nothing more.

Profound questions have been raised that go to the heart of reality creation, God and Seth2.

This a Seth board whose purpose is to discuss the Seth material.

[Tob]

Profound questions have been raised that go to the heart of reality creation, God and Seth2.

This a Seth board whose purpose is to discuss the Seth material.

"When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It may exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when It could not express Itself.

"It is conceivable, then, that It has evolved, in your terms, so long ago that It has forgotten Its origin, that It has developed from still another Primary which has—again, in your terms—long since gone Its way. So there are answers that I cannot give you, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence. We do know that within this system of our All That Is, creation continues and developments are never still. We can deduce that on still other layers of which we are unaware, the same is true." Seth, in: 'The Seth Material', chapter 18: 'The Concept of God',

Thanks for bringing this topic up.

There seems to be an issue with Seth 2 having been 'there' before 'God'. Please find below a link to Robert Butts' drawing in 'Dialogues' (p. 32). The shapes have been proposed by Seth as 'suboptimal, however acceptable'. They are meant to illustrate the 'pyramid gestalts of consciousness'.

https://abload.de/image.php?img=slantf7k7d.png

It may be of interest to notice that the formulation in the above quote is 'our' All That is.

(it would be nice if it was possible to upload such pictures directly. There is no copyright infringement involved as long as they fall under the research exemption/fair use doctrin)

[Sena]

Does Seth2 "precede" God?
How does Seth2 fit in or not fit in with the Cosmic Dilemma?

Barrie, thanks for all the effort you put into this post. It is fairly clear to me that Seth2 does not precede All That Is. The word "precede" implies the passage of time, and nowhere does Seth state that All That Is is subject to the passage of time.

My understanding is that Seth Two is one of the individual consciousnesses brought into being by All That Is (again with no passage of time), and therefore Seth Two did not have to face the Cosmic Dilemma. It is only All That Is, not the individual consciousnesses, which faced the Cosmic Dilemma.

[Sena]

"When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It may exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when It could not express Itself.

"It is conceivable, then, that It has evolved, in your terms, so long ago that It has forgotten Its origin, that It has developed from still another Primary which has—again, in your terms—long since gone Its way. So there are answers that I cannot give you, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence. We do know that within this system of our All That Is, creation continues and developments are never still. We can deduce that on still other layers of which we are unaware, the same is true." Seth, in: 'The Seth Material', chapter 18: 'The Concept of God',

Tob, thanks for highlighting these important paragraphs. What it is saying is that All That Is is not literally All That Is. There may be other psychic gestalts like It!!

[Tob]

"When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It may exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when It could not express Itself.

"It is conceivable, then, that It has evolved, in your terms, so long ago that It has forgotten Its origin, that It has developed from still another Primary which has—again, in your terms—long since gone Its way. So there are answers that I cannot give you, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence. We do know that within this system of our All That Is, creation continues and developments are never still. We can deduce that on still other layers of which we are unaware, the same is true." Seth, in: 'The Seth Material', chapter 18: 'The Concept of God',

Tob, thanks for highlighting these important paragraphs. What it is saying is that All That Is is not literally All That Is. There may be other psychic gestalts like It!!

Yes, it is a strange statement. I just wanted to add it here as it may be instrumental in the context given. Again, I have no opinion on that. Still trying to understand. When reading TES1 I already stumbled over the term 'Pyramid Gestalts of Consciousness, which are allegedly too large and immense for full materialization in F1 (Seth). Followed by Seth's remark that he has gone too early into this complicated subject matter. (Too early for Jane's consciousness at that time). As he was also referring to some earlier statements regarding such pyramid gestalts, I tried to look them up, but there was nothing in TES1. I thought maybe these passages do exist but were deleted to keep the books more legible. It can defy logic (and deter the audience) when aspects of infinity are involved. Not so easy to visualize or understand.

[Bora137]

Tob, I love this section. ATI found itself aware in the void. And not space/time void that is our experience but void of utter and complete nothingness. Truly terrifying. If there is nothing what comprised its consciousness? Some sort of energy must have been involved. But all energy we experience comes from source. So where then did source's energy come from. Especially as it was unaware before it became aware, so it could not make its own energy through consciousness? In a level close to the Godhead, know by Ra as 7th density there is threshold that is crossed. This point of crossing is experienced as a moment of utter profundity. I believe this is a critical point of revelation. Seth/Ra/Christ/Buddha etc do not know everything - no teachers do, what they basically know is how to expand consciousness to get to the next level. I believe that on our level of consciousness and even on the non physical we experience after death it is simply not possible to grasp the deepest mysteries of existence. No knowledge has ever been communicated from beyond this threshold (apart from 'it's incredible'). For me this contains the answers to the deepest mysteries of the universe. We don't know, and with our small little underdeveloped consciousnesses at this point in our becoming it is impossible for us to grasp this truth.

[Caleb Murdock]

Bora, I've always believed that something had to precede ATI.  I think it must have been either CUs or EEUs that formed ATI.  Seth says that something might have preceded our God, possibly another God, but our God doesn't know.  In my imagination, I see another Primary Energy Gestalt separating a small amount of energy from itself, and that is what creates a new PEG.  There may in fact be a race of Gods, each one knowing only itself.

In my old age, I've come to see the Universe -- meaning the greater environment in which our God and others exist or may exist -- as being a magical place.  The magic is that anything exists at all.  Seth said that ATI doesn't know from what it arose.  Because of this, and because logically there is no reason for anything to exist, existence is its own meaning.  I remember Seth saying that every action in the Universe is an assertion of life against the nothingness that might have been.  That's why I want a better understanding of CUs and EEUs, because they hold the secret of existence.

Actually, these are the issues that I came to this forum to explore.  I thought others might have a better memory of what Seth said than I do.

[Tob]

Tob, I love this section. ATI found itself aware in the void. And not space/time void that is our experience but void of utter and complete nothingness. Truly terrifying. If there is nothing what comprised its consciousness? Some sort of energy must have been involved. But all energy we experience comes from source. So where then did source's energy come from. Especially as it was unaware before it became aware, so it could not make its own energy through consciousness? In a level close to the Godhead, know by Ra as 7th density there is threshold that is crossed. This point of crossing is experienced as a moment of utter profundity. I believe this is a critical point of revelation. Seth/Ra/Christ/Buddha etc do not know everything - no teachers do, what they basically know is how to expand consciousness to get to the next level. I believe that on our level of consciousness and even on the non physical we experience after death it is simply not possible to grasp the deepest mysteries of existence. No knowledge has ever been communicated from beyond this threshold (apart from 'it's incredible'). For me this contains the answers to the deepest mysteries of the universe. We don't know, and with our small little underdeveloped consciousnesses at this point in our becoming it is impossible for us to grasp this truth.

Hi Bora, thanks for the post, I am afraid I cannot provide a meaningful reply as I am myself still in the process of bringing relevant bits and pieces together. Over years my main focus was the 'shifting, shifting shifting' - mantra and the physics which would or could underpin that. Tom Campbell's 'Virtual Reality Theory' seems to provide a solution which allows in addition to deal with dreams, various paranormal states and 'glitches in the matrix' etc.

When reading NoPR (towards the end), I was astonished to find statements according to which we will have instant access to all the information we need in the future (similar to Bashar: 'We know what we need to know when we need to know it'), channelling will be the standard form of communication (according to Seth we will know for sure whether distortions did occur or not), and we will be in constant communication with our parallel selves (i.e. all the other 'ordinary Joes') when humankind has proceeded in its physiological development, which has not yet come to an end (Seth). (In the same way as we successfully advanced from the evolutionary stages at which we were physically and biologically in need of an appendix). We will then be using more than the current 10 percent of our brain and we will be able to travel from one point in space to another without passing the distance (Seth in TES 2) by making use of the constant reproduction of the universe. Thus, Seth does know considerably more than we do but it is clear that he has his limits as well.

According to Bashar we are all individual facets of creation, 'I'-versions of 'All-that-is' which deliberately agreed to forget who we are in order to discover who we are from a new perspective, thereby contributing our unique experiences as 'added value' towards creation. We will all be able to experience ourselves one day as our 'I'- version of 'All-that-is' - at the level of 'All-that-is'. Our current life is just the beginning, the starting point. According to Seth we proceed once we understand that it is us who is producing the surrounding 'reality' (F1). Otherwise it would be too dangerous for us. We would not be able to understand what is going on.

Without overemphasizing it - this is a Seth-Forum - I think it is useful to approach Seth, Bashar, and Tom Campbell together.

One of the most encouraging statements is the last sentence of Seth in NoPR: 'Centuries before the beginning of what seems to have begun'. It requires pioneers to take his work forward (Seth), such as Jane Roberts and Robert Butts, but there is no hurry. It takes time to internalize and operationalize his teachings properly. 7000 pages (Seth) are a lot, but fortunately there is no deadline. As students we would have all agreed that centuries are a reasonable timeframe.

[barrie]

My understanding is that Seth Two is one of the individual consciousnesses brought into being by All That Is (again with no passage of time), and therefore Seth Two did not have to face the Cosmic Dilemma. It is only All That Is, not the individual consciousnesses, which faced the Cosmic Dilemma.

Sena, Seth2 may be in the category of "more to know." I don't know but IF you look at this list again, it says (14) "We seeded your god."

It also says, "We gave you mental images and upon these images you learned to form the world that you know. We gave you the pattern by which your physical selves are formed. We gave you the pattern by which you learned to form your physical reality. We gave you the patterns intricate, involved and blessed from which you form the reality of each physical thing you know. The most minute cell within your brain has been made from the patterns of consciousness which we have given you. .    We gave you the pattern upon which you formed your entire physical universe and the comprehension that exists within each cell, the knowledge that each cell has, the desire for organization was given by us. We are involved in forming creations, realities, consciousness -- worlds beyond your comprehension."

Barrie Comments: So, it surely does not seem that Seth2 is simply "one of the individual consciousnesses brought into being by All That Is.

Look again at this list:

1.    We gave you mental images and upon these images you learned to form the world that you know.

2.    We gave you the pattern by which your physical selves are formed.

3.    We gave you the pattern by which you learned to form your physical reality.

4.    We gave you the patterns intricate, involved and blessed from which you form the reality of each physical thing you know.

5.    The most minute cell within your brain has been made from the patterns of consciousness which we have given you.

6.    We gave you the pattern upon which you formed your entire physical universe and the comprehension that exists within each cell, the knowledge that each cell has, the desire for organization was given by us.

7.    We are involved in forming creations, realities, consciousness -- worlds beyond your comprehension.

8.    We form the realities, we give birth to universes.

9.    We have always watched, we are the watchers and the protectors, and you have never been alone.

10.    You are being allowed freedom within limits.

11.    We are highly interested in such experiments as Seth is conducting.

12.    We move through systems such as yours faster than the speed of light.

13.    Since we seeded the universe in which you have your present existence then do we observe, and do we watch, and do we have concern.

14. We seeded your god.

Barrie Comments: I do know about simultaneous time. I think the actuality also created linear time. There must have been some kind of time, maybe linear, in the ever growing probabilities.

But anyway, we use such words as beginning, later etc, because we are also discussing linear time and/or using linear time's terms. In Seth's comments about the Cosmic Dilemma--Seth uses the term "beginning" and "later" and he also knows about simultaneous time:

Seth (Session 427): "Potential individuals in your terms therefore had consciousness before the beginning, or any beginning, as you know it. They clamored to be released into actuality, and All That Is, in unspeakable sympathy, sought within himself for the means.

Barrie Comments: So sometimes these terms are just used when talking about human reality. Our whole language is steep in linear time--before, after, during, next, later, soon, first, last, etc etc. We do need a vocabulary to discuss F1.

By the way, this next quote, has Seth using linear terms, and implies the independent nature of these creatures within God's dream--as the probable realities kept growing.

Seth (Session 427): "...At first, in your terms, all of probable reality existed as nebulous dreams within consciousness of All That Is. Later the unspecified nature of these "dreams," in quotes, grew more particular and vivid. The dreams became recognizable one from the other, until they drew the conscious notice of All That Is. And with curiosity and yearning, All That Is paid more and more attention to his own dreams."

[Bora137]

I'm no Seth expert Caleb and I have learnt a lot from Sena, Tob, Deb and others. I tend to read teachers and then try and find commonalities. Seth and Ra I love in equal measure.

Caleb:

"In my old age, I've come to see the Universe -- meaning the greater environment in which our God and others exist or may exist -- as being a magical place.  The magic is that anything exists at all.  Seth said that ATI doesn't know from what it arose.  Because of this, and because logically there is no reason for anything to exist, existence is its own meaning"

So I would say nothingness is impossible because it demands an observer in order to 'be'. As an observer you simply cannot know nothingness - because ofc you exist within it therefore you nullify it - haha.  In a sense this relates to quantum mechanics (albeit this theory relates to our space/time plane) in that the observed changes by the fact of being observed.

Once you have an observer of nothingness you no longer have nothingness, so in a sense you could argue that nothingness negates itself - basically 'nothingness' is impossible.  Or, in seeking validation of being nothing it creates something. I guess then though nothing requires some sort of consciousness so it is not nothing in the first place.

CUs and EEUs -  l'm thinking do we need 'things' be they matter or meta-matter? This is where intuition finds its primacy over intellect.  Only the intuition can truely 'know' I feel (intu). The above is what I might say if asked, I stand by none of it because basically I have no capacity to 'know' these things. This is a guesstimation from deep distortion. Someone said up-thread that do we live inside God or does she live inside us. Here we have a problem in that our meaning for the word 'inside' is draw from our 3d space/time illusion. We don't really know what the word inside means. Just like we don't know 'love' we just know a distortion of it. A lot like looking at the land from underwater. Is the land really like that all wavy and moving? No, but from our perspective it is and we go ahead and base all our theories and experiments on that foundation.

I do like the god of god idea but then you get the old chicken and egg thing which gets us nowhere in trying to establish the start of something.

Ra says this vibration is not the vibration of knowing and I agree with him. I know I know nothing about the nature of creation and I am very happy with that.

I completely agree with you though, magic is really the only word we can use. The magician starts everything as the tarot tells us.

[Tob]

Tob, I love this section. ATI found itself aware in the void. And not space/time void that is our experience but void of utter and complete nothingness. Truly terrifying. If there is nothing what comprised its consciousness? Some sort of energy must have been involved. But all energy we experience comes from source. So where then did source's energy come from. Especially as it was unaware before it became aware, so it could not make its own energy through consciousness? In a level close to the Godhead, know by Ra as 7th density there is threshold that is crossed. This point of crossing is experienced as a moment of utter profundity. I believe this is a critical point of revelation. Seth/Ra/Christ/Buddha etc do not know everything - no teachers do, what they basically know is how to expand consciousness to get to the next level. I believe that on our level of consciousness and even on the non physical we experience after death it is simply not possible to grasp the deepest mysteries of existence. No knowledge has ever been communicated from beyond this threshold (apart from 'it's incredible'). For me this contains the answers to the deepest mysteries of the universe. We don't know, and with our small little underdeveloped consciousnesses at this point in our becoming it is impossible for us to grasp this truth.

I cannot provide a meaningful answer from the point of view of Seth. But using the concepts of Bashar, everything is created by the 'Prime Radiant', i.e. pure consciousness, which can be described as a 'particle', travelling at infinite speed, constantly criss-crossing itself. It is not subject to time and space. Time and space are subject to it. Where it is criss-crossing itself it is forming matter, the more often, the denser the matter at these points. CUs are parts of subatomic particles, in the end 'produced' (from the bottom up) by the 'Prime Radiant'. There is only this single 'particle'. Nothing else. And as everything is constructed by this single 'particle', which is everywhere at the same 'time', everything is 'here and now', including all our other lives, reincarnations, parallel realities, etc. Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once. You are an indestructable part of 'All-that-is' with an 'I'-identity which will never be annihilated, not even by integration. And as you exist, there must be a reason for you to exist. Otherwise you would not exist, as existence does not make mistakes. The quality of existence is just: to exist. Non-existence does not exist. Otherwise it would be part of existence (Bashar). According to him, every single word that Seth is saying is correct, but terminology is used differently. What is 'sub' (conscious) in Seth's cosmology is 'up' in his, for example.

[barrie]

In my old age, I've come to see the Universe -- meaning the greater environment in which our God and others exist or may exist -- as being a magical place.  The magic is that anything exists at all.  Seth said that ATI doesn't know from what it arose.  Because of this, and because logically there is no reason for anything to exist, existence is its own meaning.

Please note: This is a DISCUSSION and not an argument:

According to the Seth material, there IS a reason for everything to exist. We created F1 so we can learn and evolve via many, many lifetimes--that we both create our own reality via our thoughts, beliefs, emotions and expectations--and in so doing we are to include helping and not harming others. When we learn this, we leave the reincarnation cycle behind and move on to other realities that are more instant and intense.

Here Seth talks about the purpose of existence:

SETH (actually a Seth II quote from Session 446): "You are being allowed freedom within limits. The human race is a state through which various forms of consciousness travel. The ideals keep the race pointed in beneficial directions. Thoughts and emotions form the basic. You learn by seeing these turn into physical reality. You may be killed by what you have created. If so, the lesson is doubly learned. Before you can be allowed into systems of reality that are more extensive and open,  you must first learn to handle energy, and see, through physical materializations, the CONCRETE RESULT  of thought and emotion. As a child forms mud pies from dirt, so you form your civilization out of thoughts and emotions, and then see what you have created, and you must deal with it ON ITS TERMS...In other systems, energy is more directly felt, more extensive. Consciousness has much more freedom in its utilization.

"The lessons must be properly learned before such responsibility... When you leave the physical system after reincarnation, you have learned the lessons, and you are literally no longer a member of the human race in those terms, for you elect to leave it...In more advanced systems, thoughts and emotions are automatically and immediately translated into action, into whatever approximation of matter there exists. Therefore, the lessons must be taught and learned well."

Barrie Comments: When it comes to our purpose of being physical, Seth often includes these comments about helping others or not hurting others--as a key component of YCROR.

Seth (Session 452:) "Man was not allowed to play with the more dangerous toys until certain evidence was given that he had gained some control. This does not mean that he could not destroy the world that he knew. It simply meant that such destruction was not inevitable. You do not give a child a loaded gun if you are certain he is going to shoot himself or his neighbor. Now the weapons and the destruction are the obvious things that you see. The counterparts are not so evident, and yet it is the counterparts that are important. The self-discipline learned, the control, the compassion that finally is aroused, and the final and last lesson learned, the positive desire for creativity and love over destruction and hatred. When this is learned the reincarnational cycle is finished."

Barrie Comments: Below Seth speaks again of the vulnerability which exists in F1 (physical reality) and ITS purpose--and how it ties into OUR purpose:

Seth (Session 498): "Your ego is now focused within this reality...it is from this system that the greatest potentials emerge; for having dealt with it, consciousness undergoes one of the severest tests in learning to handle its own energy.

"The horror and the results of mismanagement, and the VULNERABILITY; are the teaching methods that each consciousness has accepted before entering your system. There is no way out but to learn or to ruin the entire system. In no other field of reality are the terms so drastic. For this reason the inner self withholds much of its knowledge. There must be no leaning upon the very basic fact that behind and within the system there is relief. You must believe in the physical reality and accept the VULNERABILITY.
 
"Now, from your system spring some of the most advanced of all identities. They go on and learn from other realities, granted, but yours is the hardest to manage, and those who accept it go off into a certain line of development where the potentials are beyond anything of which you can presently conceive... (499)...while in your reality you are VULNERABLE, agony is real, still it is not the whole reality, and success and failure have no meaning in those (underlined) terms."

Barrie Comments: Please note: This is a DISCUSSION and not an argument:

[Deb]

Sorry, I'm going to bounce around a bit here. I've been dealing with computer issues for the past couple of days, and am behind here.

"When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It may exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when It could not express Itself..."

I remember reading that in the book and I didn't really react to it at the time, just accepted it, but in a way it's really mind-blowing. Over the years I've come to envision ATI to be literally all that is. Seth didn't profess to know it all, and apparently ATI doesn't either. In a reality that has no beginning and no end, and no limit of probabilities... I'm sure there's a lot more than we can fathom.

Sena, Seth2 may be in the category of "more to know." I don't know but IF you look at this list again, it says (14) "We seeded your god."

It's hard to not think in terms of hierarchy when I think about the information coming from Seth, and then the collective Seth II. Seth III was so far out there, Jane couldn't even get anything from it other than sensing it's existence. I imagine there could be Seth IV, V, etc.

From a Rochester Group recording via Rich Kendall's collection:

(Seth II:) We are Seth and we speak to those portions of your being who have not known physical lives, or rather, we speak for those portions who have not known physical lives. For each of you have counterparts who are aliens to physical reality and those counterparts watch. Those counterparts helped form your system and seeded your entities which have grown apart from ours, though still belonging. We have different reality yet we keep track of you. Translations are difficult. Your emotions grow like flowers from your being... alien to us. We marvel and water on your flesh(?). [Must have been a transcription problem here.]

(Jane then felt an effect she called Seth III, although she said it was impossible for her to verbalize it.) [She actually said a bit more about the event, in her impromptu graphic way. I can share more if anyone is interested.]

(Seth:) Now we will let our friend down gently as always and return him to you.

I have to say this, though:  The impression that I was left with from reading the books is that physicality is more the exception than the norm in the universe, meaning the greater Whole that contains the multiple universes within it.  But we can't be sure because Seth didn't give us percentages.

That's been my impression too. I feel like I need to re-read all of the books I've read, seeing as how when I first read them I was new to the concepts and not everything stuck in my mind. I do remember Seth explaining that our physical universe is only one of a great variety of systems, some physical, some not, and probably even more that we can't even conceptualize since our Earthly POV is limited to physical or not.

CUs and EEUs -  l'm thinking do we need 'things' be they matter or meta-matter? This is where intuition finds its primacy over intellect.

I'd still like to explore CUs and EEUs a bit more. Just as a heads up, Caleb did start a new topic about this about a week ago and I think it got buried due to this current topic being in such focus. We can continue discussion of them here, or move the CU/EE stuff over there, or I can merge those few posts over to here... I'm easy. Caleb, any preference? This forum has always had a stream of consciousness flow to it which I enjoy. I'm just glad the Search function works fairly well.

As he was also referring to some earlier statements regarding such pyramid gestalts, I tried to look them up, but there was nothing in TES1. I thought maybe these passages do exist but were deleted to keep the books more legible.

That's where the Seth search engine comes in handy. It did come up with a little more, but not all of the books are in the search engine... such as Jane's and Sue's books. I do have access to a bunch of unpublished material, will check that tomorrow to see if there's anything more to add.

https://findingseth.com/q/exact:'pyramid+gestalt'/

[Sena]

ATI found itself aware in the void. And not space/time void that is our experience but void of utter and complete nothingness. Truly terrifying. If there is nothing what comprised its consciousness?

Bora, thanks for pointing out that ATI may have been "terrified". It stands to reason that ATI experiences all the emotions that we ourselves experience. Unlike the goody-goody Christian God who probably has never experienced fear.

[Sena]

Sena, Seth2 may be in the category of "more to know." I don't know but IF you look at this list again, it says (14) "We seeded your god."

Barrie, it is significant that your quote refers to "god", not the big "God". My understanding of Seth is that we are all have the potential of becoming gods.

"There is no personal god-individual in Christian terms and yet you do have access to a portion of All That Is, that is highly attuned to you only above all others.

In this respect, you see, there is a personal god, if those are the words you use. There is a portion of All That Is, that is directed and focused upon every individual consciousness. A portion of All That Is resides within and is a part of every consciousness. Every consciousness is therefore cherished and protected individually. There are automatic electromagnetic connections that exist here."

—TES7 Session 311 January 11,1967

"Now. He has been given a highly important symbol which stands in his psyche for the meaning of truth. But each of you are, in your way, to become as gods and accept that awesome responsibility. Now you notice I said to become as gods—and note the plural. There is a unity that unites all plurals."
—TECS2 ESP Class Session, April 21, 1970

[Caleb Murdock]

There is a lot to respond to here.  First of all, I am not accustomed to doing this much reading.  Reading is actually work for me; and although it opens up worlds of ideas to me, I'm still surviving on the ideas I read years ago (in the Material).

I also realize about myself that I have a tendency to read the Material and then neatly package it in my mind, but you have all made me realize that it cannot be packaged quite so neatly.  I have developed a tidy set of explanations for reality (which I imagine I would use to convert other people to the Material); but my tidy explanations don't always hold up when I read the Material (but for the most part, they are surviving re-examination).

Bora, the ideas that you shared are the kind that I have a tendency to reject -- e.g., the idea that nothingness cannot exist unless it has an observer; and that the presence of the observer means that nothingness doesn't actually exist.  Seth, if I recall correctly, said (or implied) that "zero" is a concept that doesn't actually exist.  There is existence only (or theoretical nonexistence); and much of existence exists as probabilities that haven't come to fruition.

Barrie, for once I appreciate all of your quotes from the Material.  They reminded me of how incredibly lucid Seth was.  He NEVER spoke in circles.  That's why I view the Material as the only reliable source of truth in this camouflage world.  However, I'd find your posts easier to digest if you would stop saying "Barrie Comments:" and instead say "My thoughts:".

Oh, one thing I want to add is that over the years, I got the impression that our material plane of existence is not very advanced nor important, but Barrie's quotes from the Material has changed my thinking.  The work we are doing here is more important than I realized.  In this plane, in which our immortality and true spiritual natures are disguised, the adventures we get up to have more importance than I realized (according to Seth).  At times physical reality seems chaotic -- what with all the violence and greed, and with so many people now denying reality and truth -- but it seems there is an important purpose to the chaos.  Thanks, Barrie (and thanks, Seth).

Deb, I started the other thread in order to have some of the discussions that I am now having in this thread (which, not long ago, seemed to have degenerated into bickering, although I don't want to be judgemental).  I'd still like to pursue that other thread, but I am looking for information in the books now about CUs and EEUs -- and that means that I have started to re-read the books.  But I can't devote all my days to it.  I am probably living the last ten years of my life now, and I want to enjoy some of it, and not just feel that I am back in Seth School.  Although I regard myself as an intellectual, and I often imagined reading all of the Seth books and writing a book of my own about the Material, I don't have the kind of intense focus required to do that much reading/writing.  I am a poet, and prefer to channel my creativity into poetry as much as I can.

[barrie]

I'd find your posts easier to digest if you would stop saying "Barrie Comments:" and instead say "My thoughts:".

Hi Caleb, I'm glad we are now on the same page, so to speak, regarding my posts and Seth quotes.

Allow me to clarify just one thing. I don't write "my thoughts" or "me" or "my comments" or "I say" -- for one reason and one reason. It is solely because when things get cut and paste in ongoing back-and-forth discussions--it very soon gets lost and confused about who is the "me" of me; the "I" of I, and/or the "my" of "my comments." So, for the sake of clarification, I have long ago learned to clarify who said what quote--including me.

Example: IF I wrote, "my comment" and then someone cut and paste what I wrote in order to respond to...then THAT person would inadvertantly be writing "my comment" when he was referring to me, Barrie, Barrie's comment. So, IF he just cut and paste "my comment" -- then who actually is being referred to by "my" -- does get easily lost and confused.

So, that is why I write: Barrie Comments; Caleb Comments or whoever it is I am responding to...for only THEN can people--be clear about who has said what.

Again, I am very glad we are now in an understanding and agreement in regard to my posts.

Be well,
Barrie

[Caleb Murdock]

The forum software takes care of all that.  You'll note that when you quoted me directly above, it says:  "Quote from: Caleb Murdock on November 28, 2021, 10:13:54 PM".

[Tob]

That's where the Seth search engine comes in handy. It did come up with a little more, but not all of the books are in the search engine... such as Jane's and Sue's books. I do have access to a bunch of unpublished material, will check that tomorrow to see if there's anything more to add.

https://findingseth.com/q/exact:'pyramid+gestalt'/

Yes, that is my impression as well from reading TES1 and TES2. A lot of material seems to be missing. There were sessions where Seth was hardly able to transmit 5 or 6 sentences and then suddenly he was transmitting pages and pages of material. It would be extremely useful to have access to the session where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts of consciousness for the first time. It should become clear from that very first introduction of this concept what the relationship is between those gestalts, the CUs, ATI (or ATIs), and the concept of God. These passages are missing. The search engine does not really help. The same applies to the core mechanism of reality production. Suddenly the word 'quandrants' appears without any further explanation. As the quandrants seem to be of utmost importance for understanding the individualized production of F1 universes - moment for moment for moment - it is obvious that crucial text is missing.

Seth's main message is that a) there is a neutral reality production mechanism (making use of mental genes, mental enzymes, quandrants, CU's - which function as black and white holes - EE units, pre-physical and post-physical production of realities, antimatter universes, etc.). The smooth introduction into these concepts seems to be missing. Quandrants are a key concept. 'Cubes' play a role. And b) we can benefit from the knowledge of this neutral reality production mechanism by changing the vibrations of our belief systems. We are then able to produce the reality we prefer to be in. The description how has been provided in NoPR. Some may or may not be calling this then 'shifting'.

I read somewhere that there is a Seth statement according to which the whole material will have been published one day. I assume he knew more in that regard and that's why he came forward with such a generous timeframe: 'centuries before the beginning of what seems to have begun'.

[barrie]

The forum software takes care of all that.  You'll note that when you quoted me directly above, it says:  "Quote from: Caleb Murdock on November 28, 2021, 10:13:54 PM".

Yes, Caleb, but not in the text of other parts of ongoing back-and-forth posts. Look at this shortened sample and of a back-and-forth with Sena:
------------------
Sena Writes: This is where we differ. 

Barrie Responds: I believe I had already partially inadvertantly addressed this...before your post. So FIRST let's look at what I had written on 11-24-21. You posted your comments to me on 11-25-21.
-----------------
Barrie Had Written (11-24-21) "For those who like it short and sweet...my thoughts at this moment: I believe that the Cosmic Dilemma concerned creating F1.

-----------------

Barrie Now Responds: So, let's bring this back to your 11-25-21 post and I'll answer you as we go along: I believe I have summed up both of our positions. If not, please clarify.

Sena Continues: My understanding of the Seth teaching is that we all existed in the "spirit world" (? Framework 2) before we decided to opt for physical existence. Some personalities may never decide to opt for physical existence.

Barrie Responds: Given what you say here, I agree with. We all exist in the timeless F2--and from there we send forth our focal personalities into the various linear time periods in F1. I'm not sure about these answers yet. But they are very interesting to ponder. 

Sena Continues: Did Seth Two ever have physical existence?

Barrie Comments: Seth2 is TOTALLY DIFFERENT. In a totally different ball park.

According to Seth, Seth2 gave us the blue-prints about how to create F1 in the first place. Taught us HOW to create our own reality within F1. Look at what Seth2 said in class:

Seth2 (ESP Class, 7-19-71): "Our perception allows us to tune into the particular fantasies that you perceive as one indivisible reality. 

Barrie Comments: Jane could only go so far to "reach" S2...and could not directly reach Seth2. Besides that, Seth2 had no language or thoughts we could recognize.

----------------------

Barrie NOW Comments: This back-and-forth above is not covered in this forum's software. Also, other forums don't have any software that covers it. This is an excellent way to keep track in an on-going back-and-forth concerning who said what to whom. I've tried many ways over the decades and this is the most clear way in ongoing back-and-forths. Otherwise, as I said it gets lost who is referred say when you say "my comment" or "I said.'

[barrie]

. It would be extremely useful to have access to the session where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts of consciousness for the first time. It should become clear from that very first introduction of this concept what the relationship is between those gestalts, the CUs, ATI (or ATIs), and the concept of God. These passages are missing

These passages are not missing:

These are Seth's first five mentions of "gestalt" in regard to personalities merging. It's getting too late for me to continue now. I've been doing this for more than two hours and its 5 am. So, take a look, enjoy and do further research if you can.

Seth (Session 27, 2-19-64): "As I have said, the human being is more than the sum of its parts, and you two together are more than just the two of you, and you together provide the needed power for these communications to take place. But I do not want to go further into this right now. The procedure will remain the same for quite a while.  Changes will not occur until you are ready and prepared for them, and the material itself will prepare you. I cannot go further into this now because I have not given you the principles involved as yet. What we will have when this happens is a gestalt, with no lessening of your individualities at all, but a merging that will bring greater abilities.

Seth (Session 29, 2-26-64): "Needless to say I wanted you to know that there is much more than even this, complexities that are truly astounding, intelligences that operate in what I suppose you would call a gestalt fashion, building blocks of vitalities of truly unbelievable maturity, awareness and comprehension.  These are the near ultimate... The small mention I made of the astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence is also very important.

Seth (Session 33, 3-6-64):
Rob Asks: "I was thinking that you have control of the trance state then, with Ruburt's permission. "

Seth Responds: Always with Ruburt's permission, and for that matter indirectly with your permission, for if Ruburt sensed you were against such a circumstance he would not give permission. There is here a gestalt and a delicate balance among us.

Seth (Session 42, 4-8-64): "These sessions represent quite an accomplishment on both of your parts, and you do use your inner senses to some important degree. Otherwise the material would not come through with any dependability. We have here what amounts to a gestalt of a kind. It is natural that your energies rise and ebb, and this is to be expected. To some degree I am able to reinforce your energies, and I do as you may have suspected."

Seth (Session 45, 4-20-64): "Without your confidence and intuitive affirmation, much of this material would be blocked on Ruburt's part, Joseph, and Ruburt depends strongly upon inner strengths that you possess, and of which you are mainly ignorant. We will go into the mechanisms involved in our gestalt at a later time, and we will make the whole matter plain.

Barrie Comments: Here, Seth first mentions "pyramids" in regard to "intelligent energy":

Seth (SESSION 59, 6-3-64)" You have seen that the ego is a building block. It never becomes less than a unit, and may become mote. The fragments that may develop from it do not make it less. At one time I mentioned massive units or blocks of intelligent energy, pyramids of psychic comprehensions, of which I cannot tell you too much at this time; but perhaps you can begin to perceive now how such comprehensions could be formed.

Barrie Comments: Seth's first mention of "gestalt personalities"

-------------------- 

Seth (Session 81, 8-26-64): "The God myth enabled him, man, to give his higher so called instincts an objectivity, and the God concept represented and still represents a link with the inner self.
Now. As far as hard facts are concerned, there is no God as mankind has envisioned him, and yet God once existed as mankind now envisions him.

(Jane smiled.)

What he is now is not what the religious think he is. Yet once he was only what they think he is now. For in fact he did evolve, and was not complete, but represented a supreme will to be from the beginning.
He is not human in your terms, though he passed through human stages; and here the Buddhist's myth comes closest to approximating reality. He is not one individual, in your terms, but is a psychic gestalt, an energy gestalt.

If you will remember what I have said about the way in which the universe expands, that has nothing to do with space, then you may perhaps perceive, though dimly, the existence of a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever-expanding consciousness that creates simultaneously and instantaneously universes and individuals that are given, through the gifts of personal perspectives, duration, intelligence, psychic comprehension, and eternal validity.

It is this that your God concept hints at.

Now.  This absolute, ever expanding, instantaneous psychic gestalt, which you may call God, if you prefer, is so secure in its existence now that it can constantly break itself down and rebuild itself. Its energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes and all planes and all fields, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.
----------------------

Seth (Session 108, 11-18-64): "I have told you that energy always regenerates itself, but the implications here psychically are astounding, as the inward energy forms gestalt after gestalt; and each gestalt itself then continues to go on, itself regenerating, forming new personalities which are never destroyed.
The entities, like master memory cells, store knowledge of its, or their, gestalt personalities; and even these entities are often split in many pieces, and each segment retains the complete data that belonged to the original entity.

Seth (Session 128, 2-3-65): "These personality intensities are themselves formed within ranges that would appear minute, but contain within them, truly, eons of experience. In our further discussions concerning the nature of electrical reality, we will also come closer to an understanding of those pyramid gestalts of which I have spoken.  (See the 81st session for some material on psychic pyramid gestalts.)

[barrie]

Is Seth talking about Seth2 here and/or his "peers"

Seth (Session 81, 8-26-64): "The God myth enabled him, man, to give his higher so called instincts an objectivity, and the God concept represented and still represents a link with the inner self.

"Now. As far as hard facts are concerned, there is no God as mankind has envisioned him, and yet God once existed as mankind now envisions him.

"(Jane smiled.)

"What he is now is not what the religious think he is. Yet once he was only what they think he is now. For in fact he did evolve, and was not complete, but represented a supreme will to be from the beginning.

He is not human in your terms, though he passed through human stages; and here the Buddhist's myth comes closest to approximating reality. He is not one individual, in your terms, but is a psychic gestalt, an energy gestalt.

"If you will remember what I have said about the way in which the universe expands, that has nothing to do with space, then you may perhaps perceive, though dimly, the existence of a psychic pyramid of interrelated, ever-expanding consciousness that creates simultaneously and instantaneously universes and individuals that are given, through the gifts of personal perspectives, duration, intelligence, psychic comprehension, and eternal validity.

"It is this that your God concept hints at.

"Now.  This absolute, ever expanding, instantaneous psychic gestalt, which you may call God, if you prefer, is so secure in its existence now that it can constantly break itself down and rebuild itself.

"Its energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes and all planes and all fields, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls."

[Tob]

. It would be extremely useful to have access to the session where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts of consciousness for the first time. It should become clear from that very first introduction of this concept what the relationship is between those gestalts, the CUs, ATI (or ATIs), and the concept of God. These passages are missing

These passages are not missing:

These are Seth's first five mentions of "gestalt" in regard to personalities merging. It's getting too late for me to continue now. I've been doing this for more than two hours and its 5 am. So, take a look, enjoy and do further research if you can.

Seth (Session 27, 2-19-64): "As I have said, the human being is more than the sum of its parts, and you two together are more than just the two of you, and you together provide the needed power for these communications to take place. But I do not want to go further into this right now. The procedure will remain the same for quite a while.  Changes will not occur until you are ready and prepared for them, and the material itself will prepare you. I cannot go further into this now because I have not given you the principles involved as yet. What we will have when this happens is a gestalt, with no lessening of your individualities at all, but a merging that will bring greater abilities.

Seth (Session 29, 2-26-64): "Needless to say I wanted you to know that there is much more than even this, complexities that are truly astounding, intelligences that operate in what I suppose you would call a gestalt fashion, building blocks of vitalities of truly unbelievable maturity, awareness and comprehension.  These are the near ultimate... The small mention I made of the astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence is also very important.

This is exactly the point. If these are the first two paragraphs (above) where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts, something seems to be missing. He is referring to 'a small mention of astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence'. Obviously not the functional 'gestalt of interactions' developing between him, Jane Roberts and Robert Butts, mentioned in the first paragraph.

After reading in another post that there is still a considerable amount of material which has not yet been published, I was hoping that there was more that could help clarify the issue. But thanks a lot for your efforts.

[Deb]

After reading in another post that there is still a considerable amount of material which has not yet been published, I was hoping that there was more that could help clarify the issue.

I did search the unpublished material (about 300 pages) and if I can trust the search engine there is nothing in there about pyramid gestalt. There are also several years of unpublished early class sessions, nothing in there either.

But in the process, I did find several references in some unexpected places and will put them together, along with the quotes already provided here, in my old "Seth On" non-public board. In date or session order, of course.

I'll get it together as soon as I can, and post the link here.

[Tob]

After reading in another post that there is still a considerable amount of material which has not yet been published, I was hoping that there was more that could help clarify the issue.

I did search the unpublished material (about 300 pages) and if I can trust the search engine there is nothing in there about pyramid gestalt. There are also several years of unpublished early class sessions, nothing in there either.

But in the process, I did find several references in some unexpected places and will put them together, along with the quotes already provided here, in my old "Seth On" non-public board. In date or session order, of course.

I'll get it together as soon as I can, and post the link here.

Thank you. Not really so urgent. I will continue working on the interface between F2 and F1. I am not so keen on '-isms' anyway. The 'quandrants' seem to be important.

[Bora137]

Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once.

Tob, thanks for this and the rest of the section about there existing only one partical. This must be in a very high level abstract sense that bears no relation to our actual experience though?

[LarryH]

Tob, thanks for this and the rest of the section about there existing only one partical. This must be in a very high level abstract sense that bears no relation to our actual experience though?

This idea of there being only one particle, unlimited by time or space, popped into my head some months ago, long before I read it here. The idea, if true, supports the idea of the holographic universe because that one particle would clearly know everything there is to know in the universe - it would be the universe. And yes, Bora, my sense is that while it is fun and interesting to think about, it has no impact on practical day-to-day matters.

[Tob]

Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once.

Tob, thanks for this and the rest of the section about there existing only one partical. This must be in a very high level abstract sense that bears no relation to our actual experience though?

Yes, in a sense I think this is a proper formulation (still with the general caveat that theoretically any of such teachings could be nonsense in a very cleverly arranged form). In the Seth material you find a formulation according to which reincarnation 'does and doesn't exist' (UR). It has more to do with a constant cross-fertilization of various lifetimes (which in the end all occur at the same 'time', as time doesn't exist). Reincarnational lives are then lived by other versions of you that are part of the greater 'You' that you are. Similar to parallel selves (Robert Butts who died as a child, Robert Butts who died as a pilot in WWII, etc.) The Robert Butts we know of has nothing to do with the Robert Butts who died as a child. Thus, the conundrum of what happens with your former 'I'-identity at the the moment of the beginning of the 'next' incarnation is solved. It is another version of 'You', i.e.: another part of your entity/oversoul.

[Bora137]

Ok thanks Tob. I'm still struggling but sort of grasp I think

[Tob]

Ok thanks Tob. I'm still struggling but sort of grasp I think

The single particle would be forming CUs, EEs, subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, cellular structures, your brain and your mind. It is synonymous with creation, which is formed by pure consciousness. On a personal level it does not matter whether there is such a single 'particle' or or any other agent or driving force. (If you bring in '-ism's', problems arise and things can become unfriendly or even deadly). The single 'particle' would be an extremely elegant solution. In physics scientists KNOW that their research is correct when their formulas are getting simpler and simpler. 

In a way it is similar to the teachings of Seth, where the CU's (consciousness units) are forming energy units, which are then the basis for the creation of matter. The holographic principle applies here as well. It is a re-assurance against the inadvertent destruction of parts of creation (Seth).

"If you remember that beneath all, each unit of consciousness is aware of the position of each other unit, and that these units form all physical matter, then perhaps you can intuitively follow what I mean, for whatever knowledge man attains, whatever experience any one person accumulates, whatever arts or sciences you produce, all such information is instantly perceived at other levels of activity by each of the other units of consciousness that compose physical reality—whether those units form the shape of a rock, a raindrop, an apple, a cat, a frog or a shoe. Manufactured products are also composed of atoms and molecules that ride upon units of consciousness transformed into EE units, and hence into physical elements."
—DEaVF1 Chapter 3: Session 890, December 19, 1979

[barrie]

Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once.

Barrie Responds: According to the Seth material, we don't only live once. We live forever. The personality never end, dies or gets swallowed up by anything--and the infinite numbers of probable realities of that personality also continue.

There is no end.

"You" are one of many focal personalities sent forth in agreement with all others and the Oversoul. You continue and you are a part of and tied to ALL the other focal personalities and Oversoul and all of EVERYONE'S INFINITE probable and dream realities.

You DO have one life, in this fashion, tied to everything else and all the probable and dream realities--in the historical time period you are born into. You never can go back to that exact historical time frame again.

[barrie]

This is exactly the point. If these are the first two paragraphs (above) where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts, something seems to be missing. He is referring to 'a small mention of astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence'. Obviously not the functional 'gestalt of interactions' developing between him, Jane Roberts and Robert Butts, mentioned in the first paragraph.

Barrie Comments: In Session 29, Seth refers to the small mention of gestalts EARLIER in the same Session 29:

BELOW is the whole section of Session 29 in question--carrying the TWO references. Note that one brief comment comes first, followed by the other at the end of the excerpt. In this longer version below, I put the TWO mentions in bold and I left in the page number:

Seth (Session 29): "Q u a n d r a n t s, will not concern you for quite some time.  Needless to say I wanted you to know that there is much more than even this, complexities that are truly astounding, intelligences that operate in what I suppose you would call a gestalt fashion, building blocks of vitalities of truly unbelievable maturity, awareness and comprehension.  These are the near ultimate.

"I suggest a break. The material is such that it is difficult.  I do not want to overstrain Ruburt with it.

(Break at 10:55, Jane's voice was getting tired by now. During the past two monologues she had been fairly well dissociated. She could feel Seth trying to get the material through without overloading her, she could feel him trying to get her to use the right words. It was as though, she said. Seth was stretching her brain in an effort to get the material through.

(The nature of this material of course led Jane and I to speculate a little bit, during break, about the fact that what we had as a species, and indeed the species itself might be quite impermanent. Being personally interested in such things. we talked of the perhaps intrinsic impermanence of all of our works of art, whether it be painting, music, literature, etc. Resume at 11:04.)

"This material should not make you feel unimportant or insignificant. The

230
framework is so woven that each particle is dependent upon every other. The strength of one adds strength to all. The weakness of one weakens the whole. The energy of one recreates the whole. The striving of one increases the potentiality of everything that is, and this places great responsibility upon every consciousness.

"I would even advise a double reading of the above sentence for it is a keystone and a vital one. Rising to challenges is a basis for existence in every aspect of existence. It is the developer of all abilities and at the risk of being trite, it is the responsibility of even the most minute particle of consciousness to use its own abilities, and all of its abilities to the utmost. Upon the degree to which this is done rests the power and coherence of everything that is.

"I have given you so much new material this evening that I will end the session shortly. You will see that we are getting as much material as before, that is as much actual material, and in lesser amounts of time."

("I noticed that.")

(Indeed, Jane and I had both been strongly aware that Seth was evidently doing something with respect to time, during the last few sessions.  The peculiar thing is that while the session is underway neither of us is aware of any change.  It is only at a break, for instance, that we will notice the amount of material we have taken in half an hour or thereabouts. Without running actual physical tests for comparison, we seem to accumulate quite a bit more than would usually be possible without going at top speed. Yet during a session Jane while talking steadily, nevertheless pauses often, and I am no longer pressed to write at top speed to keep up with her.)

(By now, Jane was quite tired. Her voice was low, and her pace much slower.)

"The small mention I made of the astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence is also very important."

[Tob]

Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once.

Barrie Responds: According to the Seth material, we don't only live once. We live forever. The personality never end, dies or gets swallowed up by anything--and the infinite numbers of probable realities of that personality also continue.

There is no end.

"You" are one of many focal personalities sent forth in agreement with all others and the Oversoul. You continue and you are a part of and tied to ALL the other focal personalities and Oversoul and all of EVERYONE'S INFINITE probable and dream realities.

You DO have one life, in this fashion, tied to everything else and all the probable and dream realities--in the historical time period you are born into. You never can go back to that exact historical time frame again.

We don't live forever. We die. We (may) exist forever. The question was whether we do reincarnate.

[Tob]

This is exactly the point. If these are the first two paragraphs (above) where he mentioned the pyramid gestalts, something seems to be missing. He is referring to 'a small mention of astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence'. Obviously not the functional 'gestalt of interactions' developing between him, Jane Roberts and Robert Butts, mentioned in the first paragraph.

Barrie Comments: In Session 29, Seth refers to the small mention of gestalts EARLIER in the same Session 29:

BELOW is the whole section of Session 29 in question--carrying the TWO references. Note that one brief comment comes first, followed by the other at the end of the excerpt. In this longer version below, I put the TWO mentions in bold and I left in the page number:

Seth (Session 29): "Q u a n d r a n t s, will not concern you for quite some time.  Needless to say I wanted you to know that there is much more than even this, complexities that are truly astounding, intelligences that operate in what I suppose you would call a gestalt fashion, building blocks of vitalities of truly unbelievable maturity, awareness and comprehension.  These are the near ultimate.

"I suggest a break. The material is such that it is difficult.  I do not want to overstrain Ruburt with it.

(Break at 10:55, Jane's voice was getting tired by now. During the past two monologues she had been fairly well dissociated. She could feel Seth trying to get the material through without overloading her, she could feel him trying to get her to use the right words. It was as though, she said. Seth was stretching her brain in an effort to get the material through.

(The nature of this material of course led Jane and I to speculate a little bit, during break, about the fact that what we had as a species, and indeed the species itself might be quite impermanent. Being personally interested in such things. we talked of the perhaps intrinsic impermanence of all of our works of art, whether it be painting, music, literature, etc. Resume at 11:04.)

"This material should not make you feel unimportant or insignificant. The

230
framework is so woven that each particle is dependent upon every other. The strength of one adds strength to all. The weakness of one weakens the whole. The energy of one recreates the whole. The striving of one increases the potentiality of everything that is, and this places great responsibility upon every consciousness.

"I would even advise a double reading of the above sentence for it is a keystone and a vital one. Rising to challenges is a basis for existence in every aspect of existence. It is the developer of all abilities and at the risk of being trite, it is the responsibility of even the most minute particle of consciousness to use its own abilities, and all of its abilities to the utmost. Upon the degree to which this is done rests the power and coherence of everything that is.

"I have given you so much new material this evening that I will end the session shortly. You will see that we are getting as much material as before, that is as much actual material, and in lesser amounts of time."

("I noticed that.")

(Indeed, Jane and I had both been strongly aware that Seth was evidently doing something with respect to time, during the last few sessions.  The peculiar thing is that while the session is underway neither of us is aware of any change.  It is only at a break, for instance, that we will notice the amount of material we have taken in half an hour or thereabouts. Without running actual physical tests for comparison, we seem to accumulate quite a bit more than would usually be possible without going at top speed. Yet during a session Jane while talking steadily, nevertheless pauses often, and I am no longer pressed to write at top speed to keep up with her.)

(By now, Jane was quite tired. Her voice was low, and her pace much slower.)

"The small mention I made of the astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence is also very important."

Thanks, yes you are right.

Given the fact that each and everything seems to be a gestalt in his system it is not clear what is the difference between the 'astounding gestalt building blocks of massive intelligence' and the gestalt of interaction between him and Jane Roberts and Robert Butts.

In particular it is not clear whether these huge gestalt pyramids of 'incredible maturity' are somehow synonymous with ATI, or ATIs, etc. And how conglomerates of CUs can form or build up such a 'gestalt'.

The 'Quandrants' have only been mentioned once, in the same paragraph with the 'building blocks of unbelievable 'vitality', and in addition he is referring to 'vitality' which seems to be replaced later in his teachings by 'energy' and 'consciousness'.

This is too much in one single paragraph. I thought there was more in the deleted sessions.

Thanks again.

[Tob]

Thus, the 'reincarnations' are 'here and now' as well, because the reincarnational reality is formed and materialized by the same 'here and now'- particle, and it is clear that you do not reincarnate. The reincarnational life is lived by another 'you'. You only live once.

Barrie Responds: According to the Seth material, we don't only live once. We live forever. The personality never end, dies or gets swallowed up by anything--and the infinite numbers of probable realities of that personality also continue.

There is no end.

"You" are one of many focal personalities sent forth in agreement with all others and the Oversoul. You continue and you are a part of and tied to ALL the other focal personalities and Oversoul and all of EVERYONE'S INFINITE probable and dream realities.

You DO have one life, in this fashion, tied to everything else and all the probable and dream realities--in the historical time period you are born into. You never can go back to that exact historical time frame again.

We don't live forever. We die. We (may) exist forever. The question was whether we do reincarnate.

From Session 728: "While mountains generally maintain a more or less permanent position, in your terms, the vegetation that grows on the different levels changes. New flowers come each spring. You may always find a patch of violets in the same general position in the foothills each year, for example; yet they are not the same violets that grew last season, or that will appear next season. The pattern for those flowers serves to seed each new batch. All kinds of alterations also take place in the soil beneath the mountain's layers. So, while different ledges may appear more or less the same, this sameness is the result of minute changes, new growths and seasonal variations.

For our analogy, now, think of the various ledges or levels of the mountain as different time periods. It seems to you as if one reincarnational existence would be layered above the other. You may be able to see that those existences, like the mountain, would exist at once, but you might forget that there is endless creativity and change at all levels of the mountain. New vegetation grows at the bottom layers, for example, as well as at the top ones. (Pause, one of many.) Time periods are natural and creative. They are like the levels of the mountain, bringing forth fresh life. They do not vanish when you are finished with your growth there, but serve as a growing media for other personalities. Give us a moment . . . Time periods themselves, then, are somewhatlike platforms — natural platforms — that serve "time and time again" to bring forth fresh life. Because of your viewpoint this is highly difficult [for you] to understand.

Say you were bom in 1940. It seems to you that 1940 is gone, though it was the time of your birth. Returning to our analogy, however: You are like one violet, bom in one spring on one ledge, and we will call the ledge, here, 1940. Other people are being bom in 1940 now, in a different "season." You are only aware of your own position within time, or your own place on the "platform," or the ledge as you understand it. Not only do these ledges or platforms of time exist simultaneously, but each one brings forth its own batches of personalities in its own different seasons. To that degree you are aware of your own season only, and we will call it the physical one — the particular probable reality that you accept as real.

(Intently:) The ledge of 1940, however, is still as immediate and now and present as it was when you were bom. Other personalities, again, are being bom "there," but their season or reality is different than yours. Psychically you are somewhat related, in the same way for instance that the violets that grow this year in one spot are related to all violets that have grown — or will ever grow — from (or on) the same spot. Each moment, each year, has other dimensions, therefore, that you do not comprehend as yet. To you, other people born now in 1940 would be born in a probable reality. Yet you share the same bed, so to speak When you look at an object you see its exterior, and when you experience time you perceive its exterior."

---------------------

You have just one life. And your 'I' -identity has a clear beginning, but no ending, as you will exist forever in another form. Other 'You-s' of the greater You that you are (the entity) have been born in other time periods. You may call that 'other incarnations/reincarnations'. Or they live in parallel realities at the same 'time'. None of them is the 'You', you know yourself to be. There is no problem with changing or losing identities.

And if the entity/oversoul so decides, it can send another hundred or thousand versions of you into the year 1940. They would be born NOW in the year 1940. You would perceive that as parallel realities and parallel lives. But 'physically' you live only once, according to Seth.

[Bora137]

And if the entity/oversoul so decides, it can send another hundred or thousand versions of you into the year 1940. They would be born NOW in the year 1940. You would perceive that as parallel realities and parallel lives. But 'physically' you live only once, according to Seth.

Tob, I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. The entity can throw forth as many mes as it wants. However the entirety of the soul is contained within all fragments of it. So I will go on and I will be invested in physical form once again. The soul is in us and we are a tool of it but we are all its incarnations and we contain within us the memory of all those/our incarnations. When the veil is less dense in the next stage of human evolution we will all remember our past incarnations. So ofc this physical vehicle expires, this identity formed from my sex, race, education and so on will fall away. The core spirit of me though contains the entirety of the soul and progresses on, can choose to be physical again (in which case I would be reincarnating) or can decide to do something else. So this runs against the statement of 'physically you live only once'. This current identity lives only once but the identity is not me. So saying 'you' live only once is misleading. Or have I missed something? Thanks 🙏

"11:32.) Physically, your body must follow the nature into which you were born, and in that context the cycle of youth and age is highly important. In some ways, the rhythm of birth and death is like a breath taken and exhaled. Feel your own breath as it comes and goes. You are not it, yet it comes into you and leaves you, and without its continuous flow you could not physically exist. Just so your lives go in and out of you — you and yet not you. And a portion of you, while letting them all go, remembers them and knows their journey.

Imagine where your breath goes when it leaves your body, how it escapes through an open window perhaps and becomes a part of the space outside, where you would never recognize it — and when it has left you it is no longer a part of what you are, for you are already different. So the lives you have lived are not you, while they are of you."

—NoPR Chapter 9: Session 636, January 29, 1973

Perhaps this illuminates a bit what we are grasping at. We are never our incarnations but they are of us.

[Tob]

And if the entity/oversoul so decides, it can send another hundred or thousand versions of you into the year 1940. They would be born NOW in the year 1940. You would perceive that as parallel realities and parallel lives. But 'physically' you live only once, according to Seth.

Tob, I'm missing a piece of the puzzle. The entity can throw forth as many mes as it wants. However the entirety of the soul is contained within all fragments of it. So I will go on and I will be invested in physical form once again. The soul is in us and we are a tool of it but we are all its incarnations and we contain within us the memory of all those/our incarnations. When the veil is less dense in the next stage of human evolution we will all remember our past incarnations. So ofc this physical vehicle expires, this identity formed from my sex, race, education and so on will fall away. The core spirit of me though contains the entirety of the soul and progresses on, can choose to be physical again (in which case I would be reincarnating) or can decide to do something else. So this runs against the statement of 'physically you live only once'. This current identity lives only once but the identity is not me. So saying 'you' live only once is misleading. Or have I missed something? Thanks 🙏

"11:32.) Physically, your body must follow the nature into which you were born, and in that context the cycle of youth and age is highly important. In some ways, the rhythm of birth and death is like a breath taken and exhaled. Feel your own breath as it comes and goes. You are not it, yet it comes into you and leaves you, and without its continuous flow you could not physically exist. Just so your lives go in and out of you — you and yet not you. And a portion of you, while letting them all go, remembers them and knows their journey.

Imagine where your breath goes when it leaves your body, how it escapes through an open window perhaps and becomes a part of the space outside, where you would never recognize it — and when it has left you it is no longer a part of what you are, for you are already different. So the lives you have lived are not you, while they are of you."

—NoPR Chapter 9: Session 636, January 29, 1973

Perhaps this illuminates a bit what we are grasping at. We are never our incarnations but they are of us.

You are an eternal and indestructible soul, which is part of your oversoul, i.e.: the entity (in Seth's system). As your own individual soul you took the decision to incarnate. You could have decided not to incarnate, but you did. There are souls which never incarnate (Seth, Bashar). This means you - as a soul - are currently projecting a part of yourself into 'physical reality' in order to have specific experiences. It is these experiences that matter. They are your specific and individual contribution to creation. They are unique and will never be forgotten or lost or annihilated. They are part of creation. They are what creation is about.

In order to generate these experiences you make use of a reality production mechanism. This mechanism is neutral. You are 'feeding' it with the vibrations of your belief systems, your emotions and your thoughts, (making use of mental enzymes and mental genes and a lot of other stuff from F2), thereby creating the temporary illusion of being immersed in a specific reality. With a different set of vibrations (belief systems, emotions, thoughts, etc.) you would be creating a different F1 reality. This reality does not objectively 'exist'. You only think it does. It is a camouflage reality (Seth) designed to ensure that your experiences are (temporarily) perceived by you as 'real'. Otherwise the exercise would be futile and shallow, and as meaningless as a narrated meal. Consequently, the experiences would not really 'matter' and there would be no real progress in terms of rediscovering who you really are from a new perspective.

You have not been 'invested' in by someone. You are your own soul, in the same way as any reincarnational personality is its own soul. And any parallel personality is its own soul as well (the soul of Robert Butts who died as a child is not the soul of Robert Butts who was editing the books of Seth and Jane Roberts). But all these individual souls (a considerable number) are part of a specific grouping or oversoul (Seth). And in case that their identity is strong enough, they can sooner or later even seed a new oversoul (Seth). And oversouls join together as well, thus forming oversouls of oversouls (Bashar). This goes up and up and up...(Bashar), but it is dynamically changing and not fixed (Seth). Robert Butts and Jane's souls are or were at a specific point in time part of a common entity (together with Seth). Later on the identity of Jane Roberts turned out to be strong enough to form its own entity, if I recall it correctly.

Please note: You ARE a soul, having a 3d experience. You don't HAVE a soul. And nothing is being imposed on you. Not by your own soul and definitely not by the oversoul. You are your own soul and you have free will. You can do whatever you want.

[Deb]

Thank you. Not really so urgent. I will continue working on the interface between F2 and F1. I am not so keen on '-isms' anyway. The 'quandrants' seem to be important.

Hi Tob, thanks for letting me know. I thought it was going to be easy putting together the pyramid gestalt topic. I got as far as copying & pasting most of the sessions below but I quickly realized how much time it would take me to go through them and strip out the irrelevant text. I could just leave the whole sessions in, but some are very lengthy. I already have 36 pages of text and still have more to go. Since I'm working on a couple of projects right now, I'll set this aside for a bit. It's very interesting and I do plan to carry through. It just seems to take me a while to follow through on my intentions these days.

This list came from the Seth search engine, and also a couple of documents I found.

TES3 Session 96 Oct 12, 1964
TES3 Session 128 Feb 3, 1965
TES3 Session 135 Feb 24, 1965
TES4 Session 177 Aug 11, 1965
TES5 Session 203 Oct 28, 1965
TES5 Session 213, Dec 1, 1965
TES7 Session 297 Oct 26, 1966
TES7 Session 303 Nov 26, 1966
TES7 Session 311 Jan 11, 1967
TES8 Session 417 Jun 17, 1968
TES9 Session 427 Aug 7, 1968
TES9 Session 510 Jan 19, 1970
TECS2 ESP Class Mar 17, 1970
SS Chapter 22, Session 589 Aug 4, 1971
SS Introduction 1972

Also, here's a note from Rob in Session 203:

(See the following sessions for material on the God concept, psychic and pyramid gestalts, and related questions: 51, 81, 95, 97, 115, 135, 146-9, 151, 177, among others.)

Also, another Rob note from Session 177:

(Seth has actually dealt with the God concept fairly often. This would involve such related matters as the soul, energy transformation, cycles on our plane, spirituality, the "source of the source," the Crucifixion, beginnings and endings, prayer and the will to be, etc. Among others see the following sessions: 3, 24, 27, 31, 51, 62, 66, 81, 95, 96, 97, 115, 135, 146, 147, 149, 145, 151.)

Oh, also I saw this after the fact:

(it would be nice if it was possible to upload such pictures directly. There is no copyright infringement involved as long as they fall under the research exemption/fair use doctrin)

You can either upload pictures if you have them on your computer by clicking Attachments and other options once you're in Preview mode and uploading the file (the link is below the text edit box). It will be made an attachment, and you have the option of also inserting the image in your post. I understand fair use, I just don't want a company such as Getty Images coming after me (I've had a couple of friends that got in trouble with them), or upsetting Laurel.

You cannot view this attachment.

You should be able to insert a link to an image right into your post by clicking the icon in the text editor bar that looks like a little photo. It's to the right of the YouTube button. BUT apparently that's not working. So... another support request to Simple Machines.

[Tob]

Thank you. Not really so urgent. I will continue working on the interface between F2 and F1. I am not so keen on '-isms' anyway. The 'quandrants' seem to be important.

Hi Tob, thanks for letting me know. I thought it was going to be easy putting together the pyramid gestalt topic. I got as far as copying & pasting most of the sessions below but I quickly realized how much time it would take me to go through them and strip out the irrelevant text. I could just leave the whole sessions in, but some are very lengthy. I already have 36 pages of text and still have more to go. Since I'm working on a couple of projects right now, I'll set this aside for a bit. It's very interesting and I do plan to carry through. It just seems to take me a while to follow through on my intentions these days.

This list came from the Seth search engine, and also a couple of documents I found.

TES3 Session 96 Oct 12, 1964
TES3 Session 128 Feb 3, 1965
TES3 Session 135 Feb 24, 1965
TES4 Session 177 Aug 11, 1965
TES5 Session 203 Oct 28, 1965
TES5 Session 213, Dec 1, 1965
TES7 Session 297 Oct 26, 1966
TES7 Session 303 Nov 26, 1966
TES7 Session 311 Jan 11, 1967
TES8 Session 417 Jun 17, 1968
TES9 Session 427 Aug 7, 1968
TES9 Session 510 Jan 19, 1970
TECS2 ESP Class Mar 17, 1970
SS Chapter 22, Session 589 Aug 4, 1971
SS Introduction 1972

Also, here's a note from Rob in Session 203:

(See the following sessions for material on the God concept, psychic and pyramid gestalts, and related questions: 51, 81, 95, 97, 115, 135, 146-9, 151, 177, among others.)

Also, another Rob note from Session 177:

(Seth has actually dealt with the God concept fairly often. This would involve such related matters as the soul, energy transformation, cycles on our plane, spirituality, the "source of the source," the Crucifixion, beginnings and endings, prayer and the will to be, etc. Among others see the following sessions: 3, 24, 27, 31, 51, 62, 66, 81, 95, 96, 97, 115, 135, 146, 147, 149, 145, 151.)

Oh, also I saw this after the fact:

(it would be nice if it was possible to upload such pictures directly. There is no copyright infringement involved as long as they fall under the research exemption/fair use doctrin)

You can either upload pictures if you have them on your computer by clicking Attachments and other options once you're in Preview mode and uploading the file (the link is below the text edit box). It will be made an attachment, and you have the option of also inserting the image in your post. I understand fair use, I just don't want a company such as Getty Images coming after me (I've had a couple of friends that got in trouble with them), or upsetting Laurel.

You cannot view this attachment.

You should be able to insert a link to an image right into your post by clicking the icon in the text editor bar that looks like a little photo. It's to the right of the YouTube button. BUT apparently that's not working. So... another support request to Simple Machines.

Thank you very much

[Tob]

Session 31: "In the back of your mind is one question that I have avoided for many reasons. One of the main reasons for my avoiding it was the necessity of giving prerequisite material so that the answer would be at least partially comprehensible. The question has to do with the so-called creation of your universe, the introduction of entities upon it, and of course with the cause or causes behind such creation. You know by now that you create your own camouflage-patterned universe, and I have tried to cover some of the mechanisms involved in this continuous, seemingly automatic creation. If this were fully understood you see, then there would not be the necessity of looking for some god. I am certainly not going into the God concept at this time, though you can be certain that I will cover it thoroughly, since it is itself an idea camouflage covering something much different.
 
You know then that you yourselves create your universe and that each generation creates it anew in its own image. There is a growth principle operating in the realm of ideas and in the construction of these ideas into camouflage patterns. The patterns evolve according to certain laws. They merely reflect the ideas behind them, and these ideas you must realize originate from different sources. They originate in the subconscious, it is true, but before this an idea quality is received by the inner senses. Sometimes this idea quality is received as intuition, where it sparks into the conscious mind. But the conscious ego is the primary manipulator of camouflage patterns and the obvious mover.

The actual material from which camouflage patterns are formed is the vitality which exists and which is unconsciously used by your personalities. This actual gathering up of prime vitality for the purpose of physical construction is not however truly automatic, and it is not truly performed unconsciously. The strong self-conscious self of which I have spoken, the self-conscious self of which your own personality is not aware, this self that faces into the inner world of reality, quite consciously draws upon the vitality and stuff of what is. The conscious ego then manipulates this material for the purposes of camouflage constructions. The transformation of vitality into physical properties is done by this self-conscious self that faces the inner world. The subconscious is the link between these two self-consciousnesses, and here you find an acceptance by the camouflage personality of the materials at hand.

At the same time the camouflage consciousness cannot be aware of the actual originator, and therefore must look for causes from the outside. In your dual system, that is, the two self-consciousnesses are more divided and alien to themselves than need be. The old idea of spirits pervading all physical matter actually represents an intuitive glimpse into reality that your sciences will finally arrive at in a long labored manner. You can see now why the problem of creation does not really exist in the terms that you first thought of it. During one session I mentioned that since self-consciousness even exists in all living things, then the question of the exact entrance be specified becomes irrelevant. (...)

The fact is that your plane originated because enough entities needed certain types of experience to warrant such a creation, and they set about forming it through the process of evolution. That I believe you understand. The smallest minute first portion represented the will and vitality of all the entities that would ever dwell upon the earth that would come after. It was far from a purposeless arrangement. It involved a foresight hardly imaginable, and I repeat that you had your part in the initial reaction, as did every entity who lived or will live upon the earth; and here we are getting into something rather difficult but certainly no mystery. I hope I will be able to make this entirely comprehensible at some future time.

Nevertheless I will state a few matters now and you will understand them more fully in later sessions. Since all entities had a hand in when the first particle of matter came into physical materialization, then the inference is plain that entities not yet born upon your planet somehow existed then, and this is the case. You are familiar I am sure with the old religious Christian dictum that God always was and always will be, and this is considered a religious mystery. The fact is that entities always were and always will be, though not necessarily in the same form. This involves on the part of the entity the use of personalities, which are in a manner capsules of itself or even compartments—part of the whole entity but neatly divided as far as memory and so forth is concerned. Nor is this the only universe which you have helped construct. (...)

Human consciousness involves entity consciousness, and entity consciousness asserted itself at the very first phase of physical materialization. ("Does this include the actual physical construction of the earth itself? Or are you referring to the beginnings of life upon an earth already in existence?") That includes constructing the earth itself, and when I spoke of the first particle I referred to the very first materialization of physical matter, period. It was this first particle before earth had its form to which I referred when saying that it was the result of the will of all the entities who would ever be born upon it.(...)

All entities basically are self-aware portions of energy or vitality. They are self-generating and there is no possibility of thinking in terms of either beginning or end. Again, it is only your own camouflage-imprisoned data which makes you think that everything has a beginning and an end. (...)

In a very simple example, consider that you yourself use your own energy to create your dream world. In this way also you create your socalled real camouflage world, the only difference being that the dream world images do not have duration in physical time although they have duration in psychological time. And believe it or not, actually your individuality has much more freedom in the creation of your dream world, and this is the reason why the dream world does not appear consistent to others. In the creation of the physical world a certain giving up of individuality is absolutely necessary, since the overall material environment must appear more or less the same to everyone. Of course it will never appear absolutely the same, but it must have a fairly dependable overall coherence."

------------------------------------

Please find below again the illustration of the three kinds of ego-consciousnesses that are involved in the creation of the individual camouflage reality (F1) and the individual dream world. Without the illustration the text is not easy to understand.

https://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/05/22/the-multidimensional-self/

[barrie]

We don't live forever. We die. We (may) exist forever. The question was whether we do reincarnate.

Hi Tob, let me start with this Seth excerpt:

Seth (Session 530): Now: Let me make this clear once again: Your present personality as you think of it is indeed "indelible", and continues after death to grow and develop.

Barrie Comments: So, if "your present personality as you think of it...continues after death to grow and develop," doesn't that mean we live forever...not in our physical body, tho. Also, "indelible" means "lasting."

Death is a physical reality—but there is no death in the expansive reality. How do you define live? We DO live forever. The personality NEVER dies. It leaves the physical system but it does not end or die. It still lives...but not physically in "our" probable reality we think of as our physical reality.

Seth (ESP Class, 11-21-72): In a discussion about war, and killing people in war, Seth said): "Now in greater terms, you know quite well that you cannot annihilate a consciousness. And all of those who die in war, know well that they will die in war ahead of time."

Barrie Comments: ALL events are real, but NOT all events are physical. The physical BODY dies. We do NOT physically forever in our physical body...BUT the personality continues. It does not end.  One famous Seth expression is, "You're as dead right now as you'll ever be."

Seth (Session 759): You may ask how real are those other existences, but if so, you must ask in whose terms. Existence has a physical version. In that framework you are born and die, and in a definite sequence. Death is a physical reality. It is real, however, only in physical terms. If you accept those terms as the only criterion of reality, then surely it appears that death is an end to your consciousness.

Session 759: "You cannot...insist that the laws of your vaster existence, as you discover them, supersede the physical conditions of known life -- for then no facts would apply... You will expect to live forever in the same physical body, or think that you can levitate with your body at will. You can indeed levitate, but not with your physical body, practically speaking in operational terms. You accepted a body, and THAT body will die. It HAS limitations, but these also serve to highlight certain kinds of experience...The 'true FACTS' are that you exist IN this life and OUTSIDE it simultaneously. You are 'between lives' and 'in lives' at once...Your life is a dreaming experience to other portions of your greater reality which focus elsewhere...Existence has a physical version." 

Barrie Continues: Also, IF you read chapters 9-12 of Seth Speaks, Seth explains that there is no point of death and much more about life after death. For just one example:

Seth (Session 535): "Consider this analogy. For one instant your consciousness is 'alive,' focused in physical reality. Now, for the next instant, it is focused somewhere else entirely, in a different system of reality. It is unalive, or 'dead' to your way of thinking.  The next instant it is 'alive' again, focused in your reality, but you are not aware of the intervening instant of unaliveness. Your sense of continuity, therefore, is built-up entirely on every other pulsation of consciousness...

"Since your bodies and your entire physical universe are composed of atoms and molecules, then I am telling you that the entire structure exists in the same manner. It flickers off and on, in other words, and in a certain rhythm, as, say, the rhythm of breath. There are overall rhythms, and within them an infinity of individual variations--almost like cosmic metabolism.

"In these terms, what you call death is simply the insertion of a longer duration of that pulsation of which you are not aware, a long pause in that other dimension, so to speak...

"All through your lifetime, portions of that body die and the body that you have now does not contain one particle of physical matter that 'it' had, say, ten years ago. Your body is completely different now, then, than it was ten years ago. The body that you had ten years ago, my dear readers, is dead.

Yet, obviously, you do not feel that you are dead, and you are quite able to read this book with the eyes that are composed of completely new matter. Yet there seems to be no great gap in your vision. This process, you see, continues so smoothly that you are not aware of it. The pulses mentioned earlier are so short in duration that your consciousness skips over them merrily, yet your physical perception cannot seem to bridge the gap when the longer rhythm of pulsation occurs. And so this is the time that you perceive as death."

Barrie Continues: Below, Seth discusses how we will never lose our personal characteristics. (CAPS and bold added for emphasis only:

Seth (ESP Class, 5-8-71): "Now each of you is a part of All That Is, highly individual and unique, like no other, and that like no other-ness will never be taken from you. You will NOT melt into some great golden bliss in which your characteristics will disappear. You will not be gobbled by a super-god. On the other hand YOU WILL CONTINUE TO EXIST, you will continue to be responsible for the way in which you use energy, you will expand in ways now impossible for you to understand. You will learn to command energy of which you now do not know. You will realize that you are more than you realize that you are now, but YOU WILL NOT LOSE THE STATE OF WHICH YOU ARE NOW AWARE, and regardless of the fact of reincarnation and regardless of probable selves the UNIQUE SELF THAT YOU NOW CALL YOURSELF HAS ETERNAL VALIDITY even though the memories that you cannot now consciously recall will be yours in their entirety; and physical life in its reincarnational self is not some chaos thrust upon you, some evil from which you must shortly hope to escape. It is a particular reality in which you have chosen to know your existence, in which you have chosen to develop yourself, and it is indeed a system, again, like no other system, a unique and dear and beloved portion of reality in which you have decided to flourish for a while. And in denying it, again, you deny the reality of experience.

"In other terms, you will leave this system for others, but there will be a portion of you yet, no matter how many eons pass, that remembers a spring evening and a smell of autumn air; and those things will always be with you when you want them. You make your own flesh and your own world as now en mass you form the evening. These are creations of yours and of your kind. They are not prisons to be escaped from."

Barrie Continues: Seth states above that "you will continue to exist...you will not lose the state of which you are now aware (and) the unique self that you now call yourself has eternal validity."

Perhaps if you define your terms better...it will be helpful. For example, please explain the difference between "you won't live forever" and "you will exist forever" or as Seth says above, "You will continue to exist."

Barrie Continues: We are each a focal personality. Each focal personality has INFINITE numbers of probable realities. These do not end—they forever expand. Any "end" is only from the physical perspective when it occurs in THAT one probable reality of the infinite numbers of the probable realities which keep growing.

Tob Writes: "The question was whether we do reincarnate."

Seth (ESP Class, 2-8-68) "You will reincarnate whether or not you believe that you will. It is much
easier if your theories fit reality, but if they do not, you will not change the nature of reincarnation one iota." 

Barrie Comments: So, Tob, what do you mean by "we? WHO is the WE you speak of?

Or, if you will, may I put it this way, "The question is whether I reincarnate."

Or, perhaps, "The question is whether you reincarnate."

And in THESE cases, who is the "I" or the "you"? Will you please elaborate and clarify what your definitions and/or perspectives are here? Thanks.

As I mentioned above: Seth states above that "you will continue to exist...you will not lose the state of which you are now aware (and) the unique self that you now call yourself has eternal validity."

Seth (Session 58): "Now you will see what I am saying. In various reincarnations upon your plane, the ego that reincarnates is the same ego. The information of past lives is retained by that ego's subconscious, for obvious reasons."

Barrie Comments: Even from this perspective, you are still alive—for "the ego  that reincarnates is the same ego."

Seth (Session 727):  "To a future self no more illuminated than you are, you appear dead and lifeless -- a dim memory."

Barrie Comments: Yet, here you are—quite alive.