Reincarnation

[Deb]

I thought this was a really nice explanation of reincarnation and what some people would insist is karmic effect (underlined sentences were done by me) is actually a choice our consciousness makes in order to learn. No one is fated / no one is punished. There are options, choices and learning. The kinder, gentler incarnation.

"The fact is that each individual lives many lives and that the inner self is quite aware of its own spiritual and physical dexterity. The body consciousness alone understands that its physical existence in any one life is dependent upon its physical death and that that death will assure it of still another existence. The "drive for survival" is, therefore, a drive that leads to death and beyond it, for all of consciousness understands that it survives through many forms and conditions.

Reincarnation, therefore also, is part of the larger framework in which any individual's health and well-being must be considered. The reincarnational influences are most apparent in what would be considered bodily defects dating from birth. (And these will be discussed later on in this book.)

Reincarnational influences are not nearly as rigid as many believers in the concept think. That is, reincarnational influences usually leave many options open to an individual, in any case. It is quite simplistic, for example, to say, as some people do, that any given particular event from a past life leads inevitably to a particularly matching effect in a present one. There are too many other elements that also apply to the human personality. No one is "fated" to have bad health. No one is punished in one life for "evil" activities in a previous one.

A person who has been cruel in one life may choose to experience conditions in the next life in which he or she understands the meaning of cruelty. But this does not mean that such a person would then necessarily experience an entire lifetime as a victim.

New learning would always be involved. And thus, new options would always be open. There are, in fact, so many distorted ideas connected with the concept of reincarnation in general, that I think it far better to simply concentrate upon the idea of multiple existences. Because of the true nature of time and the interrelationships of consciousness, a future life affects a past one, for in actuality all of these existences happen simultaneously. All systems are open-ended, particularly psychological ones. In greater terms, you are working "at all levels" and at all of your own existences at once, even though it is useful sometimes to think of reincarnation as a series of lives, one after the other."

Seth (Jane Roberts), 'The Way Toward Health,' April 2, 1984

[BethAnne]

Back in the day I hung out with Val and her buddy Will Powers.  (a very apt name).  Val had a congenital disease where she was only about 4 feet tall and her body was pretty twisted.  She however, thought she was real sexy and because she had that attitude and dressed very sharp you just sort of saw her that way too.  Will was ruggedly good looking and the two of them made an odd pair going everywhere together.  They met in college and both were very artistic.
Val remembered riding in a carriage in the 1800s with Will who was madly in love with her and she was cruel to him being beautiful and rich.  She said she remembered asking for a crippled life to balance out her understanding.  She was still arrogant sometimes!
She also remembered being in her crib as a baby and realizing what she had done and regretted it.

[voidypaul]

    Hi Deb, Beth,
                  nice topic Deb + one that really does need to be explored.

                  Karma as Seth has said is not a punishment though it may seem to be a cruelty to be born deformed or suffer terribly in one way or another.

                  I really liked the instance that Beth described about her friend Val + i admire this Val for her fortitude + creative attitude , made me laugh about her realizing what she had done whilst a babe in the crib , brilliant .

                  This also goes to show how some souls will take on a heavy load all at once in one life rather than space it out over several . Also it shows the counterbalance, in that obviously in the past life Val was not so aware spiritually spkg' but in this one her awareness seems to be top notch . This brave soul learns well + will also reap the rewards after this life + in the next one (if she so chooses).

                 Seth once gave an example of those who were very cruel (as mongols) in a past life + chose in the next life (jews in concentration camps) to know what that cruelty must have felt like etc.    Karma is most certainly a bitch for some but it rebalances the indiv' self + hopefully releases them from further hard lives . Some as Seth has said will take many lives to work it out in a more roundabout way .

                 Even Seth's last bit of Karma was as Frank Watts so that he would learn humility but this also shows that the self can radically progress once all the karma has been taken care of .

                 Karma implies incarnation + vice-versa , no one is peaceful loving + kind in all of their incar's or uses all of their abilities to the full so we will all one way or another have some karma to do .  It is so hard to be understanding if a family member or loved one is brutalised or dies young etc but the understanding will come in time, hopefully sooner than later .

                 Generally karma is a good thing in that family members or loved ones will choose to be born together + re-exp' their loving relationships but in diff' roles haha .

                Many of us , as far apart as we may be will have had relationships of one kind or another + are reaquainting ourselves , yoohoo y'all .

                Why did i have to have a void exp', can't really run away from it can i.
I suppose i must have been almost there in my last life + thought i would hoodwink myself in this one haha. Still tryin to work out what its good for , maybe i'll get it one day.
Karma can be confusing too , still scratching my head over this one .Think i want to be a rock or a twig in the next life .

                Karma is a good way of accepting the hardship that we see others go thru + it breeds compassion , it is universal in that all self cons' personality essence beings have their karma . It takes the place of instinct in animals + all other less structured beings or cons' like insects or atoms etc that do not have karma. It is essentially about the freedom of choice that more 'advanced' cons' have to make . Even Seth has karma but at his level of awareness he would know what actions were worthy of himself + therefore avoid any karma (bad or negative) whatsoever . Obvously doing good one way or another, accrues good karma .
                All these mad rich bitches who take no responsibility for the crap their companies inflict upon the world will have their difficult karma to come in the next life .
No one escapes karma least of all the rich + powerful.

               Through incarnation we will learn to love both ourselves + those around us, then we are free . This does not mean we must love the hateful fools but the compassion will help us either try + put them right or leave them to the karma that is rightly theirs.

               This is in part how i understand it anyway.

                    peace , paul

[Deb]

She also remembered being in her crib as a baby and realizing what she had done and regretted it.

Wow, that's pretty amazing!

This also goes to show how some souls will take on a heavy load all at once in one life rather than space it out over several . Also it shows the counterbalance, in that obviously in the past life Val was not so aware spiritually spkg' but in this one her awareness seems to be top notch . This brave soul learns well + will also reap the rewards after this life + in the next one (if she so chooses).

Thank you! That's a concept I'd not considered previously. Overachievers or those that feel "bring it on, I can handle it" or for whatever reason. There are people I see carrying more than their "fair share" of serious problems or handicaps and I wonder at times how much one person can bear. For instance, I recently met a man who went blind 5 years ago and he turned it around from being a tragedy to, basically, a life style change and new career (since he was fired as CEO of a local corporation because of his blindness, imagine that). He was just recently diagnosed with stage 3 melanoma. So maybe that's what is at work here.

                Karma is a good way of accepting the hardship that we see others go thru + it breeds compassion

Nicely said. ReInKarmaTion? Cause and effect (yes, Seth says there's no such thing). Or cause and cause? We are all one, so compassion is the only way. We are all learning, or have learned and are back (reacquainting as you say) for our own reasons. Regardless, we are all here to learn from our lessons and either move ahead, or are forced to repeat history until we "get" it.

[John Sorensen]

If I could delete two words (concepts) from humanity it would possibly be
*Sin
*Reincarnation

Both are equally ridiculous from a multidimensional point of view.

On the one hand, beliefs like childs blocks are there to play with and use and reconfigure or combine as we please, and I would never try to deny anything in somebodies existence that is useful to them on some level.

I don't understand humanities obsession with guilt, pain, suffering and sin and the idea that anybody, anywhere anytime DESERVES to suffer.
It's just ludicrous.

When I see people keep "punishing" themselves over and over again, with erroneous beliefs (that feel true to them) it makes me feel sick. I can be quite empathic at times, and being around people doing this sort of thing and not really learning or moving on can lead to me feeling quite sick.
Selfish sickness? What other nonsense beliefs need to be booted out the door today? Beliefs are like rats that just keep breeding endlessly.

[BethAnne]

To sin is to "miss the mark" as an archery term and that makes sense to me.  We all know when we are wandering off the "straight and narrow" path.   
My guess is that after death we judge ourselves from that higher perspective and then choose the next life that will give us more understanding of the situation.  The killer then becomes the victim, not as a punishment but to see a situation from another angle giving us a chance to develop compassion and wisdom.
There is a person in my life who I love dearly but also "remember" being responsible for having this person put to death in another life.  That separation causes my heart anguish.

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players: they have their exits and their entrances; and one man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages."  William Shakespeare

[John Sorensen]

In the old Greek languages yes sin is to miss the mark, but in the ancient hebrew / aramaic etc, there are multiple meanings more in line with the modern concept of sin, that is to do evil or wrong etc.

[voidypaul]

   Hi Deb ;
            ''ReInKarmaTion?''  thats a good way to put it ,  creative .

          This is simply my personal opinion

          Karma + reincarnation go hand in hand .

          Karma is an inner form of self 'justice' , a code of conduct that i believe all inner selves agree to .

          For me it is the highest form of 'moral/ethical standard agreed upon by all souls before they incarnate +  a part of the blueprints of the human species , but does not interfere with indiv' choice nor imply punishment nor evil nor sin .

          Most intelligent people know when they feel they have transgressed in some way or another , it is a natural sense , like Seth's natural guilt . It could be said that seth's natural guilt is the bedrock for karma .

          Is it a punishment ,   

           if a soul who has murdered an innocent
          has chosen to  incarnate as an innocent that is slain ?

       
           to choose to be born again with those we have loved ?

           or  to serve those who have served us ?

        Or to be a part of a mass tragedy ?    Or some beautiful event in history .

          What may seem to be a punishment from one point of view may be most beneficial from  another .

          How can we judge ,
            if it is not our own selves who have initiated the actions    + will reap the fruits  thereof
             individually or  'en mass' .

          How can the slayer + slain know each other so well .
          It may be well , that we do not know their 'past' relationship
          They may not 'remember' it themseves till the very end
           It is the choice of each indiv' cons' to  take part in such events
          Willingly , for their own personal reasons .
           Tragic as it may seem  ,  or be
         


         There is no punishment , there is no evil nor sin , there is a rebalancing 
          + difficult or easy lives chosen by particular indiv's
           for  their own benefit    +  for the benefit of others .
       
           

        Its a group thing .    As well as intensely personal .

        One does the good one feels one should , to themselves + to others
        We all create + break karma
        by our actions      we judge ourselves .
        All things can + will be put right
        There is no pain that cannot be healed 
        Karma helps us work it out thru reincarnation (knowingly or not)
        until we are free to fly   

        Karma just is ,

            in my mind + by my actions 
            i try  to tread lightly among the flowers
            of Karma + reincarnation 
            in this field of human existence

                   peace . paul

[Deb]

Karma is an inner form of self 'justice' , a code of conduct that i believe all inner selves agree to .

How can we judge ,
            if it is not our own selves who have initiated the actions    + will reap the fruits  thereof
             individually or  'en mass' .

Wow, Paul, you just clarified some things for me.
Your explanation rectifies my questions around karma. Karma has always been described to me as something that happens TO us as a result of our actions, cause and effect. But karma is simply a word/label/concept. Maybe it has been twisted by religions, just another version of a vengeful God -- "I will be punished if I'm bad." I've had trouble resolving something being DONE to us (karma) with the idea that we make our own reality.

But to think of karma as our own choice, a choice made when we're in a higher state than we (I) tend to be in this existence, betters my own understanding. Yes, karma is choices we make, that makes sense. And maybe from a more physics perspective, nature seeks balance. The energetic frequency of a negative event would need to be balanced out by a positive event (negative and positive being labeled by our own judgment and perspective).

We (I) tend to think of karma as something that happens to us when we've done something "wrong" -- universal justice. But I suppose it works both ways, such us choosing to come here first as the innocent slain and then later the murderer? Why not, if it's all about learning and growth?

(attachment can be clicked to enlarge enough to read)

[John Sorensen]

No disrespect intended, but I find any version of Karma to be utter nonsense.

Human beings look for patterns and rules, and when they are none, we make them up.

[Sena]

No disrespect intended, but I find any version of Karma to be utter nonsense.

John, I find it difficult to agree with you there. Would you say that those who perpetrated the Holocaust are now living happily ever after?

[voidypaul]

    Hi John , Sena ,

          Obviously i have to agree with Sena here John , + a little question too ,

             Why do you suppose that Seth talked about karma fairly often ?
             Do you think he might have been tripping ?
             Or do you think he was just plain wrong , perhaps a little deluded like some of us humans ?

             I entirely agree with your further quotes about play but that is about play + not karma , which is a sort of morality play of the soul + not just play for plays sake .


          peace , paul

[Sena]

             Why do you suppose that Seth talked about karma fairly often ?

With reference to the Holocaust, perhaps we need to look at it more broadly than academic historians do. Should we not look at it as the culmination of 19 centuries of false anti-Jewish teaching by the Christian Church? Crucifixion was a Roman punishment, and blaming the Jews for it is a clear distortion. I think Seth says that the crucifixion did not even take place in physical reality.

[voidypaul]

    Hi Sena ,
            quite right mate . Throw all the slanted history books in the bin, they all write the histories they want to make themselves look better + if they write disparaging things about their own prior cultures then i applaud the honesty because most nations have found their lofty status by stomping on others , generally spkg.
            Seth did say that the Christ was not crucified (as do the Muslims) + i remember reading what was puported to be the gospel of Judas in which it was written (as Seth said) that there was an agreement between Christ + Judas to actually give up someone else , a somewhat deluded person , to the romans + it was this person that was crucified .
            Unfortunately i believe that the Christians did believe that it was the fault of the Jews + therefore blamed them for this . It is also true that a certain section of rich + powerful Jews were to blame for having the (false) Christ arrested but i know that Seth also said that no one was to know that the whole of the Jewish race would be blamed + for so long + this was not intended esp' by Christ himself . The usual overreaction syndrome unfortunately .
            Also it must not be forgotten that the crucifiction was a massive event in human history , like the birth of a new planet as Seth said , in that it turned folks away from the warlike qualities + more toward those of compassion + self sacrifice rather than violence .

               peace , paul

[John Sorensen]

No disrespect intended, but I find any version of Karma to be utter nonsense.

John, I find it difficult to agree with you there. Would you say that those who perpetrated the Holocaust are now living happily ever after?

Not sure what you are saying.

Are you referring to the individuals involved taking on different contrasting roles in different incarnations, or suggesting some sort of divine need for punishment and revenge?

[John Sorensen]

    Hi John , Sena ,

          Obviously i have to agree with Sena here John , + a little question too ,

             Why do you suppose that Seth talked about karma fairly often ?
             Do you think he might have been tripping ?
             Or do you think he was just plain wrong , perhaps a little deluded like some of us humans ?



             I entirely agree with your further quotes about play but that is about play + not karma , which is a sort of morality play of the soul + not just play for plays sake .


          peace , paul

I don't know.

Perhaps you could give some examples?

[Sena]

Are you referring to the individuals involved taking on different contrasting roles in different incarnations, or suggesting some sort of divine need for punishment and revenge?

No, we don't want to go down the road of a "divine need for punishment and revenge". I would like to consider the nature of All That Is that led to the Holocaust. Is there a large non-intelligent element in All That Is? We don't need to agree with Christian theologians who say that God is omniscient.
Another way of looking at the Holocaust is to consider how much free will people actually have. Did Hitler actually possess a significant degree of free will, or was he pushed into what he did by historical forces?

[Deb]

Would you say that those who perpetrated the Holocaust are now living happily ever after?

That's a good point and it very much reminds me of something that has bothered me for the longest time--a Christian concept: anyone can get immediately into Heaven, regardless of what they did during their lifetime here, if they "accept JC as their personal savior." This had always chafed me to no end to think that someone could be a mass murderer (for example, Ted Bundy) but if they become Christian before someone flicks the switch they are guaranteed to be completely forgiven for whatever wrong they did in this life. I have spent my entire life being considerate, giving, caring and doing no (intentional) harm and have been told that I will "go to hell" when I die because I never accepted religion. From Paul's explanation, Karma is merely a word, a term, a label, for a natural balance of give and take, learning, experience, growth. I just think the word Karma, like the word God, is fraught with so many religious connotations that it's laden with emotional baggage. Maybe we can just think of it as adventure learning?

[John Sorensen]

Are you referring to the individuals involved taking on different contrasting roles in different incarnations, or suggesting some sort of divine need for punishment and revenge?

No, we don't want to go down the road of a "divine need for punishment and revenge". I would like to consider the nature of All That Is that led to the Holocaust. Is there a large non-intelligent element in All That Is? We don't need to agree with Christian theologians who say that God is omniscient.
Another way of looking at the Holocaust is to consider how much free will people actually have. Did Hitler actually possess a significant degree of free will, or was he pushed into what he did by historical forces?

I have no idea, and don't know what you are asking. I'm not thinking about Christian anything, but still wondering what your first question is asking.

The Seth material mentions the so called "victims" of the holocaust did some very nasty things in other lifetimes.

So I don't know if you are saying that so and so deserves to be punished, or talking about reincarnational cycles, which are as always, voluntary rather than mandatory.
Nobody is forcing us to incarnate here or at any point in human history, and the nature of reality, whether friend or murderer is co-operative when seen from the larger perspective.

Even the very act of being alive here and now, at the same time as every other individual currently alive on the planet, is a mass agreement on a very large scale, regardless of who our friends and perceived enemies may be.

No entity sends a portion of itself into a physical incarnation without being fully aware of the potential challenges faced by that branch of the self.
We may not know the answer to the "test" in advance, but we certainly know that we will be tested, there is no mystery about it, and neither is anybody a victim who does not choose to be, for the purposes of playing out a larger drama.

[Deb]

Just wanted to add this one last post before I take off in the morning. It comes from Ivan Kelly on Facebook:

Quite literally, YOU LIVE MORE THAN ONE LIFE AT A TIME. You do not experience your century simply from one separate vantage point, and the individuals alive in any given century have far deeper connections than you realize.. (Intently:) You do not experience your space-time world, then, from one but from many viewpoints.

If you are glutted - sated - with a steak dinner, for example, in America or Europe, then you are also famished in another portion of the world, experiencing life from an entirely different viewpoint. You speak of races of men. You do not understand how consciousness is distributed in that regard. You have counterparts of yourself.

Generally speaking, the people living within any given century are related in terms of consciousness and identity. This is true biologically and spiritually, through interrelationships you do not understand.

Joseph (Rob) was "picking up" on lives that "he" lived in the same time scheme. In this way and in your terms, he was beginning to recognize the familyship that exists between individuals who share your earth at any given time.

Each identity has free will and chooses its environments as a physical STANCE in space and time. Those involved in a given century are working on particular problems and challenges. Various races do not simply "happen", and diverse cultures do not just appear. The greater self "divides" itself, materializing in flesh as several individuals, with entirely different backgrounds - yet each embarked upon the same kind of creative challenge.

The black man is somewhere a white man or woman IN YOUR TIME. The white man or woman is somewhere black. The oppressor is somewhere the oppressed. The conqueror is somewhere the conquered. The primitive is somewhere sophisticated - and, in your terms, somewhere on the face of the same earth in your general time. The murderer is somewhere the victim, and the other way around - and again, in YOUR terms of space and time.

Each of you will choose his or her own framework, according to the intents of the consciousness of which each of you is an independent part. In such a fashion are the challenges and opportunities inherent in a given "time" worked out.

Seth (Jane Roberts), 'The "Unknown" Reality', Vol 2, Session 721.

[BethAnne]

I have a reincarnational drama with my daughter.  In a past life I was her Christian servant in Rome.  It so infuriated her that I had something/contentment that she could not purchase that she had a Roman Guard (my son) kill me.  He however, felt that to kill something so weak was not worthy of a soldier and instead had me thrown into a cell for life where I went insane.

Now, she is a Fundamentalist who has "cut me off" because I am not saved by Jesus.  And her brother, who has executed me several times in past lives, collects swords and has a very cutting personality.  I've gone round and round with these two many times.  LOL

And still the theme of my life with my "family" has been that though they are worth a lot of money it still pisses them off that I'm content living a simple life. 

[Batfan007]

I have a reincarnational drama with my daughter.  In a past life I was her Christian servant in Rome.  It so infuriated her that I had something/contentment that she could not purchase that she had a Roman Guard (my son) kill me.  He however, felt that to kill something so weak was not worthy of a soldier and instead had me thrown into a cell for life where I went insane.

Now, she is a Fundamentalist who has "cut me off" because I am not saved by Jesus.  And her brother, who has executed me several times in past lives, collects swords and has a very cutting personality.  I've gone round and round with these two many times.  LOL

And still the theme of my life with my "family" has been that though they are worth a lot of money it still pisses them off that I'm content living a simple life. 

I hear that Jesus fella was pretty forgiving, so I reckon you are okay in his books BethAnne 

[BethAnne]

Thanks John.   

I think reincarnation is like dating.
You "attract" someone who is compatible with your vibration so if you are aware you realize that the person is a reflection of your "stuff".  If you break up and you haven't evolved your "stuff" you keep dating the same kind of relationship over and over till you have understood your "stuff".

Somewhere I read, and it might have been Seth, that the Holocaust "victims" came as a sacrifice to bring "bad stuff" to the attention of the world.
If we are Eternal what does a 20 year glitch really matter to an individual.  At that level we are participating in a "Video Game".

When I was 5 I saw a book of the concentration camps and even then wondered how a country's people could have allowed this to happen.  So the Holocaust was a Wound that had never healed in our History.  The concept won't go away until it is understood, internalized and released.
So what do we have?  The People born as WW2 ended are now RePlaying that Drama over.  Trump has been compared to Mussalini.  His policies are coming from his childish narcissism and are dangerous.  Large crowds are supporting him while others are now examining his behavior.

We "broke up" with Hitler and now are "dating" the same kind of jerk.

[BethAnne]

Seth did say that the Christ was not crucified

I personally do not think the point was cruicification either.  Everytime I see a Christ-on-Cross I am grossed out.  It doesn't resonate a spiritual vibe but a piece of propaganda to keep people in line through fear. 

How convenient of the Church of the Roman Empire to have brainwashed people to "sacrifice" like Jesus and then have a confessional.  Do you really think all that information was private?

On a more abstract level the "Cross" is Metaphysical Geometry.    And because it is so abstract we have to have symbols to explain physics.  Living along the Navajo reservation I'm aware of the Native creation myths.  When you look at them as abstraction they explain physics.
Many ancient cultures talk about the importance of the Sacred Twins.  It's not about two people but  physics .  Polarities?  Sine Waves? 

"Twins in Mythology"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins_in_mythology

[BethAnne]

Trump's birth:  June 14, 1946
http://www.astrotheme.com/astrology/Donald_Trump

Ted Koppel compares Trump to Mussolini to O'Reilly
http://mediamatters.org/video/2015/12/16/ted-koppel-compares-donald-trump-to-benito-muss/207564

[BethAnne]

There are Dark Magic Rituals that are done to "program" the next incarnation......it is said. 
Occultism was part of the foundation of the Nazis and Hitler.   Interesting that Trump was born 14 months after Mussolini's death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_occultism

[Sena]

Interesting that Trump was born 14 months after Mussolini's death.

Yes, there is a facial similarity. Mussolini was a buffoon and a loser who got thousands of Italians killed.

[Sena]

When I was 5 I saw a book of the concentration camps and even then wondered how a country's people could have allowed this to happen.  So the Holocaust was a Wound that had never healed in our History.

I see the holocaust as the culmination of 19 centuries of fear-mongering and lying in the name of Christianity. Pius the 12th has been described as Hitler's Pope. As long as the various Christian power blocs remain strong, similar things could happen in the future.

[BethAnne]

It is interesting to watch as Trump whips up support by the least aware of our US population.

[Sena]

It is interesting to watch as Trump whips up support by the least aware of our US population.

I assume that right-wing Catholics might vote for Trump. Also fundamentalist Christians?

[BethAnne]

So far he really hasn't brought religion up as much as past elections by Bush.   
He focuses mostly on whipping up fear in people so he gets a lot of people who are prone to violence.  It isn't so much that Trump is the worry but what all these crazy gun toting fear based uneducated mobs are going to do when he looses.

[Batfan007]

Seth did say that the Christ was not crucified

I personally do not think the point was cruicification either.  Everytime I see a Christ-on-Cross I am grossed out.  It doesn't resonate a spiritual vibe but a piece of propaganda to keep people in line through fear. 

How convenient of the Church of the Roman Empire to have brainwashed people to "sacrifice" like Jesus and then have a confessional.  Do you really think all that information was private?

On a more abstract level the "Cross" is Metaphysical Geometry.    And because it is so abstract we have to have symbols to explain physics.  Living along the Navajo reservation I'm aware of the Native creation myths.  When you look at them as abstraction they explain physics.
Many ancient cultures talk about the importance of the Sacred Twins.  It's not about two people but  physics .  Polarities?  Sine Waves? 

"Twins in Mythology"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twins_in_mythology

I kind of see the Jesus story and teaching as one thing, and everything that happened after that as the successful rebranding of all icons, images and stories by different people for their own ends.

I can see nothing in the gospels about worshiping instruments of torture, and let's say my dad accidentally killed someone tomorrow, and went to the old electric chair, I am not going to start wearing a little electric chair pendant around my neck.
I think the various groups and organisations were quite successful at taking this figure / drama / story and using it for whatever purpose suited.

Despite all the nonsense that may have gone on, you can still find inspiration in even the most perverted ideas from the whole drama.

[BethAnne]

I can see nothing in the gospels about worshiping instruments of torture

I know right?  What a convenient symbol to keep the congregation in line.

[Yeoshi Yamamoto]

In my view, as well as Seth's own, reincarnational lives are simultaneous and not linear. Thus, all the lives we have created are being lived all at once. Thus Karma is a false assumption. There really is no reincarnation, it is a mistaken view. The being(s) that we are creates multiple selves to experience all facets possible simultaneously.

Let us not forget that we live multiple selves, some are men, some are homosexuals, some are women, some are kids, dads or moms, brothers and sisters, some are babies, some are dictators, some are popes, some at slaves, etc. you get the idea.

Those examples are all opportunities to learn and all are action. There is no judgment there, just creativity. Again, there is no punishment, there is no retribution, there is no karma. We are in a kindergarten school trying our best, and sometimes not so best, to learn and grow.

[Batfan007]

I can see nothing in the gospels about worshiping instruments of torture

I know right?  What a convenient symbol to keep the congregation in line.

1. I agree.

2. The more you go deeper into pictorial and written symbols, they predate all formal written languages and alphabets (as far as I know) the more you see how many of our symbols are our own solar system / natural forces (the seasons, summer winter etc) and elements reflected back at us in picto-graphic form.

3. The more you look into this topic, the more you see traditional pictographic and linguistic symbols intentionally mis-used or "re-branded" for nefarious purpose, eg the Nazi appropriation of the 4 directional (4 elements, 4 directions, 4 forces and similar...) swastika emblem, which previously was associated with peace, or more specifically, harmony with the unseen order of things, so like you know Zen, or Taosim etc. It also comes up in Taekwondo as the Four Direction Punch (Form/Kata) and most other old cultures along with the circle, triangle and other common shapes. See also the faiths of Abraham / Church appropriation of the ancient Cross symbol both the "+" and the roman "+" with it's longer vertical line and it's associations.

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We are hard wired to respond to graphic symbols, hence the mis-appropriation of Sigils etc in modern times etc by consumerism such as McDonald's, Coke etc which we more commonly know as "brands" "brand awareness" "Brand values" "Logos" etc. They are a sort of short hand in human communication, with multidimensional implications that may or may not apply to other systems of reality (see Geometric shapes and "Metron's Cube" for more on this topic).

Any symbol / logo etc has it associated meanings and implications, that is part of the reason WHY it is useful in a larger sense over just a random letter in an alphabet in solo.

Symbols in their purest form always have something of the essence that they express. Here I think of cave paintings more than anything else.
We give little credit to pre-modern man and his familiars, who knew as much if not more of Framework 2 than we do, being more intimately engaged with it on a semi-conscious level as literal fact (lived experience) rather than conceptual reality.