~Speaking of Seth~

Seth did not say anything specific about dementia, but his teaching is that I create reality, so if I become demented, that is a reality I have created. Many people are afraid of dementia.

It is difficult to see that anyone would voluntarily choose dementia, but I can envisage two possibilities:
(a) If someone is suffering from something very painful like the loss of a child, he may choose dementia in order to escape the mental pain.
(b) If someone is very fearful of physical death, dementia might be an option, because then the person would die "unknowingly".

Great topic Sena, thanks for that!

I think you're on to something, in that we would create dementia as we create anything else. I kind of think of Seth's comments on coma as being just as applicable as dementia. I think the first quote below best fits in with what you're saying. And I also agree that fear of death would be the reason why someone would choose dementia or coma over death. There are stories of people who have wake from comas over very long periods of time and go on with their lives. I've not heard of anyone recovering from dementia.

"Now. A crisis, particularly in very early or very late life, may so shatter the personality's identification with the body that he vacates it temporarily. He may do one of many things. He may leave so completely that the body goes into coma, if the body consciousness has also suffered shock. If the shock is psychological and the body consciousness is still operating more or less normally, then he may revert to an earlier reincarnational personality."
—SS Chapter 13: Session 557, October 28, 1970

"Now in many cases of coma, the personality simply leaves before the body's actual death. [...]"
—TPS1 Session 473 (Deleted) April 7, 1969

"The fear of death itself can cause such a psychological panic that out of a sense of self-preservation and defense you lower your consciousness so that you are in a state of coma, and you may take some time to recover."
—SS Chapter 9: Session 535, June 17, 1970

Hi Sena, Hi All,

What a great topic Sena.

I've also thought about this often, as years ago my mother-in-law and father-in-law came and lived with us during the last years of their lives. He had dementia and she had Alzheimers.

I too have often wondered whether people primarily choose these conditions for the exact same reasons that you've listed above.


In regards to dementia, I think that Seth "may" have been talking about this, in some of the discussions that he had with Rob and Jane about their neighbor Miss Callahan; the teacher who Frank Watts claimed, knew him.

Several of the discussions between Seth, Rob and Jane about Miss Callahan occurred across several of "The Early Sessions" books.

Below I've captured part of the discussion that Seth had with Rob and Jane from Session 29.  In this discussion, Seth mentions a dream that Jane previously had, about Miss Callahan.

I used Bold Font in several places in the Session 29 material below. This material seems to indicate that Miss Callahan, did not "consciously" choose to take this path, but did so instead at a much deeper level.


TES1, Session 29, February 26, 1964:

[...]

At the precise time of Ruburt's dream, your friend Miss Callahan had, or rather was, deciding to leave this plane. Ruburt received this message directly. The unwillingness on Miss Callahan's part represented of course her present personality's protest against the change that a deeper part of herself deemed necessary and proper.

It was Miss Callahan's discovery that she needed operations on both eyes that caused this deeper decision. Miss Callahan herself was conscious of natural dismay over the projected operations. When she told Ruburt of the operations, Ruburt leapt to the conclusion that this was the meaning of the dream, and that the dream data had been incomplete.

I think that before tonight, subconsciously Ruburt knew the true meaning of the dream. Part of the subconscious fantasy in the dream was of course valid, representing a watered-down version of the actual communication. For example, Miss Callahan's black apparel. She had been preparing herself since she learned of the operations' necessity for her own departure. Yet consciously of course, she was ignorant of her own inner decision, and this is always absolutely necessary.

("Seth, why did Miss Callahan tell us back in early December that she didn't know, or at least remember, Frank Watts?"

(Jane had asked Miss Callahan about Frank Watts soon after our first session, of December 2/63.)

She did not remember Frank Watts, although he exaggerated to some degree. They did meet rather often over a period of many years, as she taught his children. He admired her very much, as his children found her an excellent teacher. One in particular. Frank Watts considered her a friend, attaching more importance than she did to her influence upon his children; but beyond this her present personality has been gently disentangling itself from this plane, and she simply did not remember.

Of course, the conscious mind cannot be aware of such important and critical inner decisions. It would break apart in most unpleasant circumstances, disintegrating before the whole self could make necessary preparations. I want to point out here that your friend Miss Callahan is taking an easier way out in one way, and a difficult way out in another. In the long run her way is a better one, however, than the manner chosen by those who prefer a so-called quick death.

The disentanglement of her present personality has been gradual and gentle. She is focusing less and less upon this plane and will, again gradually, begin to focus upon another plane. She will not, therefore, experience as much shock. There is a period of adjustment after leaving any plane, although your plane involves the most difficulty since the camouflage pattern is unusually rigid.

[...]

From your viewpoint such a disintegration is, of course, not pleasant, but as the personality loses its focus on your plane it gathers itself together on another plane, and such a gradual gathering together is much more favorable than the surprise of a complete and sudden departure. Already Miss Callahan's vital core of awareness is appearing on another plane, and if you will forgive an analogy, she appears there as a wondering but not frightened young girl.


-jbseth

I just returned from my latest visit to my mother, who is in an assisted living facility. She is 90 and has dementia. When my step-father died, I moved in with her for several months, then got in-home care, then this year moved her to a facility much closer to my home. Her memory loss and confusion is increasing noticeably in the last few months. She has also lost nearly all of her vision, whereas just a few months ago she could see colors and shapes and make out the numbers on a large digital clock. I had remembered and been comforted by knowing that Seth had addressed dementia in the way that he had (as quoted by jbseth above). Of course, my mom is not in touch with her reasons for choosing this manner of departure ("gently disentangling" herself from this plane). But I can appreciate that she has chosen this. And it may not be entirely for her. This may have been part of a contract between her and myself for the purpose of my own growth. There is nobody else to manage her affairs and no relatives other than myself remotely close in proximity. While dealing with these issues has been challenging for me, it comes with blessings as well.

I always played music for my mom when she was in the nursing home suffering from dementia, it was the only connection we had before she passed. She couldn't communicate but she would remember the words and sing along to her old favorites. My thoughts are with you.
DD

Quote from: dougdi
I always played music for my mom when she was in the nursing home suffering from dementia, it was the only connection we had before she passed. She couldn't communicate but she would remember the words and sing along to her old favorites. My thoughts are with you.
DD

dougdi, welcome to the forum and thanks for sharing your experience. My grandmother and an aunt died of dementia, so if I believe in Alzheimer genes, I've got some of those! I am now 70 years old.

"Most people with Alzheimer's have the late-onset form of the disease, in which symptoms become apparent in the mid-60s and later. The causes of late-onset Alzheimer's are not yet completely understood, but they likely include a combination of genetic, environmental, and lifestyle factors that affect a person's risk for developing the disease."

https://www.nia.nih.gov/health/alzheimers-disease-genetics-fact-sheet

My understanding is that a healthy diet, exercise, and keeping one's mind active can help to prevent Alzheimer's. I think my aunt did keep her mind active (she played the viola in a quartet), but she probably had an unhealthy fear of death. She was devoted to her husband, and the thought of seeing him die may have been unbearable. She was in a nursing home, so she did not see him die. Soon after her husband died, she herself died.

Quote from: jbseth
She did not remember Frank Watts, although he exaggerated to some degree. They did meet rather often over a period of many years, as she taught his children. He admired her very much, as his children found her an excellent teacher. One in particular. Frank Watts considered her a friend, attaching more importance than she did to her influence upon his children; but beyond this her present personality has been gently disentangling itself from this plane, and she simply did not remember.

jbseth, that's a great find about Miss Callahan, an acquaintance of Frank Watts, Seth's final incarnation.

"Also after supper it developed that Miss Callahan, the retired school teacher who lives in
the front apartment on our floor, had evidently had an attack of some kind and was in urgent need
of help. Our neighbor across the hall first informed us. Jane went to see Miss Callahan, who had
difficulty answering the door, was suffering from lapses of memory, and was indeed in poor
condition. She had also taken several falls, and evidently had not been eating."

"Miss Callahan is an elderly retired teacher who lives in the front apartment of our second floor here. Oddly enough, she had her first stroke almost exactly a year ago—February 17,1964. Since her illness then, Seth has dealt with her to varying degrees on February 17, as well as in the 29th, 31st, 33rd, 44th, 46th, 54th, and 56th sessions, among others. Jane has also had clairvoyant dreams involving Miss Callahan."
—TES3 Session 133 February 17, 1965

"(Miss Callahan is an elderly retired school teacher who lives in the front apartment.Her memory has been affected by a series of small strokes. [...] These took place at the beginning of Miss Callahan's illness. [...] Jane is still very solicitous for Miss Callahan's welfare."
—TES5 Session 219 January 3, 1966

Yes, great find! I remember reading about Miss Callahan, but had forgotten about her. I ended up reading all of the quotes associated with her name on the Seth search. From what I read, it seems she was in apartment 3, 2nd floor front side of the house. So she'd had strokes, not exactly the same as dementia, but definitely affecting the brain, memory, thought processes, emotions.

Why do you suppose there are so many people with dementia these days, from a Sethian perspective? Being a Bruce Lipton fan, he says we turn on genes based on belief. I have a friend who spent 9 years taking care of her mother, who should have died several times due to serious health problems that resulted from her dementia, but she still clung to life. My friend is now convinced that dementia is a normal condition of aging and that she and her husband will have it. Her husband's mother has dementia.

Some people say that we are just living longer now and dementia is inevitable. My parents both died at 66, no signs of dementia. But on both sides of my family people died much later than that, my paternal grandmother was 99 when she died, but none of them had dementia. I had a neighbor in Denver who was 93 when I bought my house. She was living on her own, mind completely intact, she never even needed glasses. She was 99 when she died, shortly after her sister forced her to leave her house and go into an assisted-living home out of state.

Contrast that with a family friend who was diagnosed with Alzheimers when she was about 50. She had lead a clean lifestyle, never drank, no medications of any type, ate a healthy diet. She died less than 2 years after diagnosis.

I also watched a documentary a few weeks ago about British fighter pilots during WWII, what life was like for them. Some narration and interviews later with the pilots, all in their 90s now. What struck me was how remarkably mentally sharp they all were.

I'm curious if dementia is also a cultural thing, or if a dementia has been increasing in all countries and societies.

I'm also a fan of Weston Price, who "discovered" that our health is directly related to the quality of food we consume, and that cultures that didn't eat a Western diet full of processed foods did not have the plethora of physical and mental problems that Western societies do.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Personally, I think what Seth tells us about beliefs in NoPR and what he tells us about mass events, has a lot to do with this.

People like your friend (the one who spent 9 years taking care of her mother), people who come to consciously "believe" that they "will" get dementia, will likely create their reality from their beliefs and therefore will likely get dementia.

Other people, people who for their own reasons, choose to experience dementia or who choose to die with dementia, will likely get dementia.

Then theirs another group of people, people who do not have a conscious belief that dementia will automatically come to them at the ends of their lives and who don't really wish to die that way, most likely won't get dementia and/or die with it.

The fact that there are people who live very long lives and remain very clear and of sound mind, right up until the time they die, should give us strong evidence, that dementia does not automatically come to all of us at the end of our lives.

-jbseth

Quote from: Deb
Contrast that with a family friend who was diagnosed with Alzheimers when she was about 50. She had lead a clean lifestyle, never drank, no medications of any type, ate a healthy diet. She died less than 2 years after diagnosis.

Deb, this brings us back to Sethian explanations. The denial of death (due to fear) is extremely widespread in modern society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Denial_of_Death

Becoming demented is an ideal solution for someone who wants to die unknowingly.

The fear of death is due to false ideas about death. Scientific atheists tell us that death means final oblivion. Christian teaching frightens people by talking about "judgement". The Sethian idea that physical death is merely a return to the Entity, our real self, eliminates fear.

Quote from: jbseth
Personally, I think what Seth tells us about beliefs in NoPR and what he tells us about mass events, has a lot to do with this.

I think so too. Dementia has become more well-known in the past few decades, perhaps people are focusing on it and it's the old "you get what you concentrate upon." Also, as mass events are usually a statement (or protest?) about certain conditions and an attempt to bring about change, there might be a deeper reason for what some people consider this new "epidemic."

"The epidemics then serve many purposes — warning that certain conditions will not be tolerated. There is a biological outrage that will be continually expressed until the conditions are changed."

—NoME Chapter 1: Session 802, April 25, 1977

I don't know what the reason would be behind dementia, I but I feel a lot of things coming to people's attention these days could be to make us more conscious of the damaging things we are doing to the planet and nature in general—and to also bring us back into contact with nature. We are a part of nature despite that we've 'forgotten' that, and what damages nature and the planet damages us.

Quote from: Sena
Becoming demented is an ideal solution for someone who wants to die unknowingly.

The fear of death is due to false ideas about death. Scientific atheists tell us that death means final oblivion. Christian teaching frightens people by talking about "judgement". The Sethian idea that physical death is merely a return to the Entity, our real self, eliminates fear.

Wow, you struck a chord here. Maybe also a kinder, gentler way to die when there are strong feelings about the moral consequences of 'suicide' when someone just wants to leave this existence?

I'd mentioned a while back that I had a neighbor who was a Christian Fundamentalist, and she died within a couple of years of finding out her favorite son was gay. The doctors never came up with a cause, she simply physically and mentally deteriorated, went into a coma, and died. At the time I thought she'd died because she couldn't live with the idea of her son being gay—she had been very outspoken against homosexuality.

This other friend that died of dementia was also very religious, Southern Baptist, very involved in the church. Soon after she died, her husband came out of the closet. They had been married at least 25 years. I have no idea whether she found out he was gay or not, but we do have that constant telepathic communication and so at least on some level she would have known.

"in many instances the will to live is so weakened and a despondency so strong sets in that such individuals often acquiesce, finally, to their own deaths, seeing no room in the future for their own further growth or development."
—WTH Chapter 11: June 14, 1984

The Denial of Death book sounds interesting, the concept of an immortality project, the associating certain mental illnesses with fear of death. I'm not sure how/why/when humans stopped accepting death as a natural consequence of living. Death would be another good topic to explore here.

I read a well-written book a few years ago, Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, written by a young mortician who wants to overcome fear of death in society. She feels the advent of undertakers made death a sterile environment for families, taking away the personal involvement of dealing with a loved-one's passing.

Larry and Doug you are good men and sons.

jbseth, thank you for your interesting post.

Sena, I took a Death and Dying course in college, in the late 70's.
and read the Denial of Death. I remember feeling it was super depressing.

Deb,  a couple nights ago I watched a Ted Talk by Caitlin Doughty:



also, there is a lot about Miss Callahan in Seth, Dreams and Projections of Consciousness.
in that book though her name is Miss Cunningham.
I've checked it, though.
its the same woman. for whatever reason, Jane used the different name in S D and P of C.

Quote from: chasman
Sena, I took a Death and Dying course in college, in the late 70's.
and read the Denial of Death. I remember feeling it was super depressing.

chasman, yes I found that I could not finish Ernst Becker's book. He diagnoses the problem but does not come up with a solution. We have to turn to Seth for a solution!

Quote from: chasman
Deb,  a couple nights ago I watched a Ted Talk by Caitlin Doughty:

Well, I think I'd call that a synchronicity. She hadn't popped into my head until I was writing that post yesterday, and I don't think she's ever come up on SoS before.

Nice video. I really enjoyed her book, it was very well written and she's very funny. I learned a lot of things about the very profitable 'business' of death, traditions in other cultures, and even the effects of cremation and what we now consider traditional burial (embalming, coffin, cement over-coffin) on the environment. She favors natural burial without all of that extra stuff, and I tend to agree with her. I can see how being personally involved with caring for the body after death would help with the closure aspect of losing someone. But to me, keeping a body around for months is a bit overboard in the other direction.

She also has a YouTube channel, Ask a Mortician, where she answers people's questions about different topics about death. She even did one on Vladimir Lenin that was very interesting. He's a high-maintenance kinda guy.

Her videos are interesting and entertaining. I haven't watched them in a long time. Not that I'm that morbid of a person, I just want to know everything about everything, lol.

thank you for your replies
Sena, its been a bunch of decades since I read it, but words I remember to describe it more would be, despair and hopelessness.

Deb, interesting all you wrote.
and I just thought of a nickname for Miss Doughty, in association with cremation.
Mrs. Doughty-Fire.   
hahahaha.
ok just trying to entertain you .

did you see what I wrote about Miss Callahan and Miss Cunningham?

Quote from: chasman
did you see what I wrote about Miss Callahan and Miss Cunningham?

Thanks for reminding me, I did mean to comment on that.
Nice catch, I need to look into that more. There were times in the Seth books that they did give new names to people to provide anonymity. Miss Callahan/Cunningham did get quite a lot of coverage in the Seth materials.

Love the Doughty-Fire name!
Caitlin is awesome. I did watch a few more of her YouTubes tonight. She's very smart. And interesting. And I found a connection to her with a client of mine.

thank you Deb!
you are so awesome and kind!!!

and I wanted to acknowledge you saying thats what you'd call a synchronicity in your last post.
I was thinking the same thing.   

and you are funny, with your calling Lenin a high-maintenance kinda guy. 

Hiya All. Adding to this oldish thread because it is close to my experience at the moment with my father in some stage of dementia though I don't like labels or diagnoses. I take a lot from NoPR in this instance. Seth is quite clear that our ideas about age are so limiting and that great expansions of consciousness (time distortion falling away) that happen in old age is mistaken by us as senility -

QuoteThere are specific functions brought into operation quite naturally that are scarcely perceived by your scientists, much less understood. As the mind within the body clearly sees its earthly time coming to an end, mental and psychic accelerations take place. These are in many ways like adolescent experiences in their great bursts of creative activity, with the resulting formation of questions, and the preparation for a completely new kind of personality growth and fulfilment. (Jane spoke very emphatically, gesturing often.) This would be quite apparent were it not for your current belief systems, through which the old are forced to interpret their experience. Many instances of expansion of consciousness, and mental and psychic growth, are interpreted by you as senility.(C13p253)

Often my father will ask 'where has everybody gone?' And I get the impression that the moment before I interrupted him he was enjoying a stimulating social gathering. He has always been very sociable and loves people. Now the framework of time is breaking down for him he can go to any social gathering he attended in the past or chat with consciousnesses not on this plane or those still on this plane even. It is still difficult for us so locked into this plane and dependant on our temporal and spatial senses to allow us to navigate it and survive within in it to see someone with dementia or Alzheimer's as anything other than inflicted with some terrible disease. But we must resist this I feel, and push through the detrimental belief systems our society presents as established fact and live the belief system Seth gave to us. He went on to say in past civilisations such older people who experienced events outside of objective reality were regarded as wise old men and women. 
Of course there are great challenges and very distressing situations for carers and loved ones. My grandfather got up to all sorts but my grandmother was the right person to fulfil the purpose of caring for him as she had an extremely strong mind. I often reflect that before incarnating here they chose each other and their roles very well. As Seth says each instant of senility is personal and will come about for different reasons, it can be attracted by fears and beliefs but from what Seth says it is also just a part of the process of living..and dying.

Quote from: Bora137
Often my father will ask 'where has everybody gone?' And I get the impression that the moment before I interrupted him he was enjoying a stimulating social gathering. He has always been very sociable and loves people. Now the framework of time is breaking down for him he can go to any social gathering he attended in the past or chat with consciousnesses not on this plane or those still on this plane even. It is still difficult for us so locked into this plane and dependant on our temporal and spatial senses to allow us to navigate it and survive within in it to see someone with dementia or Alzheimer's as anything other than inflicted with some terrible disease. But we must resist this I feel, and push through the detrimental belief systems our society presents as established fact and live the belief system Seth gave to us. He went on to say in past civilisations such older people who experienced events outside of objective reality were regarded as wise old men and women.

bora, thanks for sharing your experience with us. It certainly gives me a fresh insight into dementia.

Quote from: Bora137
Many instances of expansion of consciousness, and mental and psychic growth, are interpreted by you as senility.(C13p253)

Thanks to all for this helpful thread.  I love the idea that what we perceive as the shrinking of a mind is actually often expansion and growth!  It is so tempting to try and control the experience of someone suffering from Alzheimer's.  To see them as having returned to toddlerhood, and in need of guidance and protection.  If we were more astute we would be sitting at their feet, learning all we can. 

Whether the person experiencing dementia has attracted it because of their fear of it, whether they are using it as a way to slowly re-focus and expand their consciousness outside of this reality, whether they are using it as a tool to avoid their human fear of death, whichever it is, on some level they have still chosen this path.  Knowing this makes it easier for me to accept this condition in a couple of those close to me.

Over in the Elias forum I found a transcript where someone asks Elias how to be helpful to a parent suffering from dementia.  I found Elias's response a useful addition to the perspectives posted here already, so have attached it below.

Quote from: leidl
But the first point to recognize and acknowledge is that this is the other individual's choice. They are creating that for a reason. You may not understand what their reason is, and they may not objectively have the ability to give you that reason. But that does not mean that they don't have a reason or a purpose in generating that type of direction, and that also being part of their value fulfillment. I recognize and acknowledge that that can be difficult to understand, and even without understanding, for it is possible you may NOT understand.

But even with that being stated, you don't have to understand or agree or like an expression to be accepting of it, and to recognize that regardless of your perception of a situation or a direction that another individual is generating, you are not expressing their value fulfillment. And your perception of what they are choosing is based in your guidelines, that you would not necessarily want to engage what they are choosing, but that is YOUR guidelines.

In this, I also acknowledge and am understanding that desire or that want to be helpful and to be expressing that helpfulness with the other individual. What is significantly important for you to understand is what YOU think is helpful is not always helpful to the other individual. It is a matter of recognizing what your guidelines are and then accepting what the other individual is creating, expressing that acceptance of what the other individual is creating, and then, if you want to be helpful, expressing to the other individual that want, that desire to be helpful, and asking them what they perceive would be helpful to them, inquiring of them what they want or what they perceive would be helpful, and then evaluating for yourself whether you are willing to move in those directions.

Let me express to you, this situation is very similar to individuals that create what you would term to be perhaps abusive or addictive choices in relation to substances. You may classify them differently, but those situations are equally difficult for other individuals to accept and to not move in a direction of attempting to alter that or force your help in relation to the individual that is generating those choices.

leidl, thanks for this very interesting quote from Elias. He is comparing dementia to substance "abuse", conditions such as alcoholism. This brought to mind the TV series Brideshead Revisited, based on a book by Evelyn Waugh. The character of Sebastian Flyte, an alcoholic, comes to mind. He is the most spiritual person in the book (a Roman Catholic). I am aware of the double meaning of "spiritual"!!

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083390/

Sena, and all,

Yes, the parallels Elias draws between the choice of addiction and the choice of dementia got my attention too.  Seth tells us that the events we do not choose, which presumably present various degrees of challenge, also happen:

"You can choose to accept as your reality any number of given unpredictable events. In that respect, the choice is yours, but all the events you do not accept occur nevertheless."
—UR1 Section 1: Session 681 February 11, 1974

Out of all possible events, most of us go for the challenges.  Dementia, cancer, addiction, abusive relationships, mental illness, chronic debilitating pain...and some of us choose several of these at once, when we could have taken an easier road.

"The present as you think of it, and in practical working terms, is that point at which you select your physical experience from all those events that could be materialized. [...] The more adventurous will often choose greater challenges, and so in their minds the contrasts between what they want to achieve and their present status can seem to be impossible"
—NoPR Chapter 15: Session 656, April 16, 1973

Perhaps our heads of state are handing out awards to the wrong people? 

Brideshead Revisited looks excellent.  You'd think if we're going to choose things like addiction and despair, we'd at least have the sense to do it in an English country house where Jeremy Irons drops in.