~Speaking of Seth~

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

Thanks for the Ron Card E.T. share! Interesting what he has to say.

I found a YouTube channel that I think has the best info on different E.T. groups, civilizations, and their locations in the galaxy.
Either that or they scoured the web and put all the various aspects together in a convenient format 
I find much of what they have to say interesting to listen too. Not saying they are 100% the real thing. I think they've got much of it right though.

I'm linking a vid where they have a very interesting conversation on Time and Consciousness. Many of their ideas- subjects are reflective of the ideas in the Seth Materials.



Cosmic Agency.

Hi All,

Hi Usmaak,

Session 604 where Seth talks about E.T. involvement with earth in the past.

https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=171.0

This link will work 

Quote from: T.M.
Hi All,

Hi Usmaak,

Session 604 where Seth talks about E.T. involvement with earth in the past.

https://speakingofseth.com/index.php?topic=171.0

This link will work 

Thank you.  I've read all of the mainstream books but none of the personal sessions and I'm only 48% through the first early sessions book.

If I'm being honest, I don't like this alien stuff.  I cringe at the idea of aliens or of the earth being populated by alien races.  I prefer the more mainstream Seth stuff.  The other stuff is like alien overlord stuff.

Hi All,

Hi Usmaak,

I hear you 

I spent years trying to prove to myself aliens weren't involved with humans. Oh well, I gave up on that.
I forgot its interspersed in Seth Speaks too. Funny enough I kinda forgot about that too while I was researching trying to prove aliens weren't involved,  lol.

Quote from: usmaak
Granted that I have just started the early sessions books but I do not remember anything like this or about aliens being responsible for colonizing earth in any way.

There's one quote that always comes to mind from Seth, hinting that not all of our DNA or such is terrestrial, but I don't believe he went into details. Certainly not colonization of people of color, I actually laughed when I read that.

"Now. Your human stock did not all originate solely from your planet. I never told you that it did. In that respect your ancestry is indeed varied. Some of the information given in my own book, by inference, should have made that clear."
—TPS2 Session 604 January 12, 1972

Seth does talk about the rise and fall of prior civilizations on earth in Seth Speaks, Chapter 15. I found it incredible but also interesting and haven't read it recently but I remember getting a sense that the civilizations were more than naturally occurring.

And then more from that Session 604:

"There were then visits from others in other planetary systems. In that regard this is quite natural. Your own relative isolation is far from the average. The legends, many of them therefore, were of course chronicles of quite legitimate physical events, describing phenomena for which natives had no adequate vocabulary. They were forced to describe what they saw by making comparisons with objects and events already familiar to them."         [I get it, we do it too]

"Some such visitors in your terms were more evolved than others. All however would appear as superhuman in contrast to those civilizations that encountered them. There were some deliberate experiments, that were in fact far more dangerous to the experimenters, always in which the experiments tried in one way or another to advance man's knowledge."

There's a lot more in this session, where Seth talks about Sumarians, space travel, etc. I can share more if anyone is interested. It's several pages long, but thanks to Mary I have the book in Word and can copy & paste.

Quote from: T.M.
I spent years trying to prove to myself aliens weren't involved with humans.

And I'm still leaning towards our current visitors not being from another planet as much as another reality. Not that either one is easier to accept than the other. Yet, I don't have a problem with the idea I may have some alien DNA in me, I don't think it's much different than ancestry from different parts of the world. We're all made of star dust anyway, lol.

Thanks for the YouTube T.M., I'll probably listen to it while I'm cataloging the stuff I got from Rich and Mary. Trying to figure out what I have, in those boxes piled so high. Lots of plastic.

Quote from: Deb
"Now. Your human stock did not all originate solely from your planet. I never told you that it did. In that respect your ancestry is indeed varied. Some of the information given in my own book, by inference, should have made that clear."
—TPS2 Session 604 January 12, 1972

Deb, thanks for that quote. Another instance where Seth would agree with David Wilcock's views as expressed in the book I mentioned on another thread.

"Dark Mission: The Secret History of NASA" by Richard Hoagland can be downloaded here:

https://www.pdfdrive.com/dark-mission-the-secret-history-of-nasa-enlarged-and-revised-edition-e196259491.html

This is from a review of the book:

"The authors presented in-depth analysis of evidence indicating anomalous structures on both the moon and Mars. Within that analysis the writers provide considerable information to indicate that NASA is anything but a civilian space agency and that it's part of the dark, secret power structures that use public money to further their own secret agenda and withhold hugely important information from mankind."

Hi All,

Hi Deb,

I should have said I was hoping to prove Ets didn't directly create humans.  And I cant 

I don't mind so much mind that humanity has some alien DNA either!  I've wondered myself if some of the UFO sightings are us seeing visitors from another probable to us reality too.

Hi Sena,

I think I have that book by Wilcox

Hi, please find attached session 604 (Seth on extraterrestrials and their ancient influence in Sumer). According to Bashar the historic empire of the Sassanides was founded by one of them (the name of Bashar's planet is Sassani, or Essassani). According to him, there was once a planet called Maldek at the outer edge of the solar system. It was destroyed by a meteorite. The annihilated civilization began anew on Mars. However the Mars civilization has been destroyed as well, actually by a near fly-by of a meteorite which was a relict of the destruction of the earlier planet Maldek (sucking off the atmosphere). This civilization then finally settled on Earth, so somehow there is a link to mankind. There is also a symbolic significance as well as the successive civilizations managed to get closer and closer to the light, i.e: our sun. One planet at a time. Looks like a lengthier process.

Below is a link to a youtube video depicting a crab-like structure on Mars. According to Bashar it is mechanical, a relict from the former civilization on Mars.

Quote from: Tob
According to Bashar the historic empire of the Sassanides was founded by one of them (the name of Bashar's planet is Sassani, or Essassani). According to him, there was once a planet called Maldek at the outer edge of the solar system. It was destroyed by a meteorite

Tob, this is interesting. Maldek is also mentioned in the Law of One:

"Questioner: You said yesterday that Maldek was destroyed due to warfare. If Maldek hadn't destroyed itself due to warfare would it have become a planet that evolved with self-service and would the entities have increased in density, gone on to say the fourth, fifth density in the negative sense or the sense of self-service?

Ra: I am Ra. The planetary social memory complex, Maldek, had in common with your own sphere the situation of a mixture of energy direction. Thus it, though unknown, would most probably have been a mixed harvest — a few moving to fourth density, a few moving towards fourth density in service to self, the great majority repeating third density. This is approximate due to the fact that parallel possibility/probability vortices cease when action occurs and new probability/possibility vortices are begun."

https://www.lawofone.info/results.php?q=maldek

When we look around the world, we can see some powerful people doing nasty things. According to the Seth view of karma, these people can continue on their merry way without suffering consequences. It seems to me that the Law of One teachings are more realistic.
----------------------------------------


Hi. thanks for the info. I can only refer to Bashar. One should follow the formula:

'Follow your passion, to the best of your abilities, without insisting on the outcome, and REMAIN in a positive state no matter what, because the situation in question must be there for a reason, otherwise you would not have created it'.

YOU are creating (and constantly re-creating) a universe moment for moment for moment, where there are obviously some people killing each other. I am doing the same, because there are people killing each other in my environment as well. We know it from the news. But we have the chance to move (by 'shifting') to a universe where people will finally stop killing each other and where animals are no longer predators. According to Bashar our animals are currently predators because we are. Here on this version of earth.

Currently earth is 'in the process of splitting'. Says Bashar. According to him various 'versions of earths' will move away from each other (not physically, but vibrationally) and the loud booms and strange sounds which could be heard all over the world in the past years are a 'physical representation of this 'splitting'.

Those who are on the future-oriented version of earth are the ones who follow the formula (according to Bashar). Others find themselves on other versions of earth and will have different experiences. COVID does play a role. There are versions of Earth which are covered by martial law since 2012. There are versions which did annihilate themselves, there are versions where the planet has been catapulted out of the orbit. There are also versions which are 'heaven on earth'. You decide. You create YOUR YOUniverse. Physically. Says Seth. YOUniverse, not universe.

We should stay away from fearful beliefs as they may have the potential to bring us back to those versions we do not prefer to live on.

In chapters 60 to 64 Seth is precisely describing how we are creating our own (individualized) physical universe and the respective interface to the other physical universes, which are constantly created and recreated by the persons we communicate with when we meet them in a room. Two persons, two tables in the room, three persons three tables in the room, etc.

Similar to an interactive video game. You are a 3D player IN the game. With a perspective which is uniquely yours. You canot see your forehead. Others can. They create their own physical universe with data and information for the creation of your forehead.

The parallel versions of earth can also coexist. According to Aristoteles and Roman historians the indigenous population living in the ancient territorry of what is now called Greece (prior to the arrival of the invading Greeks from the North) could not see the moon. To them it did not exist. In a similar way, the indigenous people in Latin America could not see the ships of the arriving Spaniards. They were literally living in a different parallel version of earth.

Reality is created with the vibration of our belief systems. According to Seth, a black garden hose could theoretically turn into a vicious black snake. Not more likely than the sudden vanishing of the moon, but also not impossible, as we are creating our own environment, i.e.: the physical YOUniverse with our own belief systems. This is basically what Seth's compendium on the 'Nature of Personal Reality' is all about.

This is why it is so important to get rid of negative or outdated concepts. The concepts we are working with and the underlying belief systems determine what kind of reality 'we get'. WE are the creator. WE/YOU are OUR/YOUR individualized 'I-aspect of 'All-That-Is". And will ever be.

Hmmmm, didn't someone we all know and love suggest that some UFOs could be visitors from other dimensions? Well, now he's not alone:

Quote from: former Pentagon chief
The most extraordinary UFOs being those that have been subjected to multiple intelligence collection systems. UFOs where the collected data has then been subjected to extensive analysis in an attempt to rule out aircraft, meteorological phenomena, or other otherwise conventional explanations. UFOs that then still defy conventional explanation. Luis Elizondo told the Washington Examiner that the U.S. government has intelligence-analysis predicated reason to investigate further whether these UFOs are indeed not of earthly origin. It matters because Elizondo says these UFOs (what the government refers to as "unidentified aerial phenomena"/UAPs) are not believed to be.

Instead, Elizondo says it is a credible line of government inquiry that these UFOs are "extraterrestrial, extradimensional," or the creation of an Earth-based intelligence entirely unknown to our human society.

The bit about "Earth-based intelligence entirely unknown to our human society"—I need to think about that one!

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/ufo-investigations-us-considering-extraterrestrial-hypothesis

- - - -

Update, here's more:

Another interesting article. The "photo" in the article looks like a computer generated one, but hopefully the actual one mentioned below will be released when more information comes out this summer. That was supposed to be this month... June is pretty close to being done, so maybe in the next week? The article also mentions UAPs that can travel through water as well as air, and has a 12+ minute video of a UAP over Nevada.

Quote from: The DebriefOverwhelmingly, everyone The Debrief spoke with said the most striking feature of the recently released UAPTF intelligence position report was the inclusion of a new and "extremely clear" photograph of an unidentifiable triangular aircraft.

The photograph, which is said to have also been taken from inside the cockpit of a military fighter jet, depicted an apparent aerospace vehicle described as a large equilateral triangle with rounded or "blunted" edges and large, perfectly spherical white "lights" in each corner. Officials who had seen it said the image was captured in 2019 by an F/A-18 fighter pilot.

https://thedebrief.org/fast-movers-and-transmedium-vehicles-the-pentagons-uap-task-force

WaPo's support of The Debrief article, https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/confirmed-navys-previously-unreported-2019-triangle-ufo-incident, which also mentions Unidentified Submersible Phenomena.

I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff.

Quote from: Deb
Quote from: The DebriefOverwhelmingly, everyone The Debrief spoke with said the most striking feature of the recently released UAPTF intelligence position report was the inclusion of a new and "extremely clear" photograph of an unidentifiable triangular aircraft.

The photograph, which is said to have also been taken from inside the cockpit of a military fighter jet, depicted an apparent aerospace vehicle described as a large equilateral triangle with rounded or "blunted" edges and large, perfectly spherical white "lights" in each corner. Officials who had seen it said the image was captured in 2019 by an F/A-18 fighter pilot.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Thanks for sharing this information Deb. I haven't heard about this yet.


The triangle shaped vehicle with bright lights in the corner, really caught my eye.


Darryl Anka, who channels "Bashar" wrote just one book, that I'm aware of. Many years ago I bought this book, "Bashar: Blueprints for Change" and read it because Bashar seems to suggest several concepts that were somewhat "Seth-like" in nature.

In Part 3 of this book, Chapters 11 through 15, Bashar talked about the ET's. Specifically in Chapter 11, he talks about alien space craft. In this chapter there are two drawings of spacecraft. One of them (page 214) is a scout ship. It is an equilateral triangle, where each side is 40 feet in length with a light on each corner. The other craft (page 216) is huge, cylindrical in shape and about 1 mile long.

How interesting that "Bashar" should have described this spacecraft so well, so many years ago now.

I wonder if tob has anything to share about this?

-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth

Quote from: Deb
Quote from: The DebriefOverwhelmingly, everyone The Debrief spoke with said the most striking feature of the recently released UAPTF intelligence position report was the inclusion of a new and "extremely clear" photograph of an unidentifiable triangular aircraft.

The photograph, which is said to have also been taken from inside the cockpit of a military fighter jet, depicted an apparent aerospace vehicle described as a large equilateral triangle with rounded or "blunted" edges and large, perfectly spherical white "lights" in each corner. Officials who had seen it said the image was captured in 2019 by an F/A-18 fighter pilot.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

Thanks for sharing this information Deb. I haven't heard about this yet.


The triangle shaped vehicle with bright lights in the corner, really caught my eye.


Darryl Anka, who channels "Bashar" wrote just one book, that I'm aware of. Many years ago I bought this book, "Bashar: Blueprints for Change" and read it because Bashar seems to suggest several concepts that were somewhat "Seth-like" in nature.

In Part 3 of this book, Chapters 11 through 15, Bashar talked about the ET's. Specifically in Chapter 11, he talks about alien space craft. In this chapter there are two drawings of spacecraft. One of them (page 214) is a scout ship. It is an equilateral triangle, where each side is 40 feet in length with a light on each corner. The other craft (page 216) is huge, cylindrical in shape and about 1 mile long.

How interesting that "Bashar" should have described this spacecraft so well, so many years ago now.

I wonder if tob has anything to share about this?

-jbseth

Hi, Please find attached two 'pictures' of Bashar's spaceships. The triangle is the alleged scoutship of Bashar as depicted in Darryl Anka's film 'first contact'. The large structure in space is one of their cities. They are deployed in space. The graphics are taken from Darryl Anka's film 'first contact'. According to Bashar the 'Phoenix lights' were a spaceship as well. Hybrids on board. The event occurred over Phoenix as the name 'Phoenix' does represent the resurrection from the ashes. Thus, a strong symbolism is involved.

https://share-your-photo.com/e7e135b503
https://share-your-photo.com/9c9da08430246211/admin

(The pictures have been uploaded for research purposes on this specific forum. No copyright violation intended)

Quote from: usmaak
I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff.

These days, I don't even know what "skeptic group" means anymore. Are these UFO skeptics or just general skeptics? Are they thinkers or just debunkers? Somehow it fascinates me that a "Sethie" would be in multiple skeptic groups.

I once considered trying to converse with astrology skeptics, but what would be the point? As a software guy in the astrological community for many years, it was amusing to me that skeptics would target astrologers. I mean like the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (formerly SCICOP).

Quote from: usmaak
I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff.

More evidence from credible sources has been released in the last couple of years than in any prior period, so I am wondering why skeptic groups would be having a "field day" now of all times.

Quote from: usmaak
I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

I'm kind of wondering just what these "skeptics" groups that you belong to, are having a "field day" all about? 

Are you saying that these skeptics groups think that these US Navy's claims of UAP are all bogus?

-jbseth

Quote from: KylePierce
These days, I don't even know what "skeptic group" means anymore. Are these UFO skeptics or just general skeptics? Are they thinkers or just debunkers? Somehow it fascinates me that a "Sethie" would be in multiple skeptic groups.

I think that it's kind of a combination of both, just like anything else.  You have people that just get kicks out of not believing things and you have people who apply thought to the process and draw their own conclusions.  It can be tricky to figure out who fits into each category.  And they're not just UFO skeptics.  They're skeptics of anything other than earth and humanity are a fortuitous accident and that once life ends, it ends.  The tend to target any religion or new age beliefs.  And I am a reader and not a participator.  I don't even participate when it comes to religion, though I think that religion is the biggest pile of bunk ever foisted on humanity.

I like to look at all sides and not slot myself into a certain set of beliefs without considering others.  Of course some things I believe are totally silly while others feel more real.

And I don't consider myself a "Sethie" at all, or anything else, really.  I like the Seth material and have been reading it since the 80s, but I've also never seen any undeniable proof that any of it is real.  I mean it feels real, but can feeling really be counted as a fact?  And there are parts of it that just seem ridiculous to me.

I like groups like this one because they make me think and they are a place to talk out the material that I've been reading for so long.  I do have to be careful because I've always fallen on the skeptical side of anything for which I can't find concrete proof.  And let's face it, that's a lot of things.  I've spent years between when I started reading Seth (1987) and today as a complete skeptic of everything even remotely like this.  And there have been times where I've been mostly convinced that there's something to it.

Things that I absolutely do not believe in, in no particular order - UFOs, astrology, religion.

I know that somewhere I posted a story about "seeing lights in the sky".  Maybe it was a UFO and I am wrong for my doubts.  It's certainly possible.  But to me, it seems more likely that it had to do with the ANG base 30 miles down the road than anything.  I've posted a few different "out there" stories here, but every single one of them can be easily explained away.

According to the Seth material, if I am looking for ways to debunk something, I will find them.  If it's part of my reality, I'm creating it.  That's the hook, and the circle that I keep going in.  I just know that I look out on my world and I see and live in physical reality.  I don't see UFOs.  I don't see a world where there's a kind god behind the reigns.  I don't see any benefit to knowing where planets and starts were located when I was born.

Every single so called mystical experience that I've had can easily be explained away in less than ten seconds.

I know that looking for incontrovertible proof is a fools game.  I mean if God came down and smacked me on the back of the head and said, "dude, I'm right here", I'd be a believer.  If I got beamed up into some alien spacecraft, I'd be a believer.  Likewise, if there was something Seth related that I couldn't dismiss, I'd be more likely to be all in.  Or maybe not.  Maybe I'd still find a way to dismiss it.  This is how I've always been.  I think too much for my own good.

And some of the stuff I read here about aliens colonizing and seeding earth and stuff like that comes right out of the science fiction books that I most love reading.

None of it is personal.  Regardless of where we live on this planet, we are all allowed to believe what we want to believe.  We can't openly state it in all places, but the mind believes what it believes.  And I never knock someone for their beliefs.  That's one of the reasons why I don't participate in the skeptic groups.  Because by doing so, I'd be actively telling someone else what to think.  And that's just not me.

The most important thing to me, and one of the biggest reasons why I am here, as well as other places, is that I keep an open mind to the possibilities.  I don't really have any idea what is real and what isn't.  Maybe everything y'all talk about is the truth and I'm just getting in my own way by never being able to thoroughly believe anything.

Quote from: LarryH

Quote from: usmaak
I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff.

More evidence from credible sources has been released in the last couple of years than in any prior period, so I am wondering why skeptic groups would be having a "field day" now of all times.

Because they believe in nothing other than a certain death.

Quote from: jbseth

Quote from: usmaak
I belong to several skeptic groups and they're all having a field day with this UFO stuff

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

I'm kind of wondering just what these "skeptics" groups that you belong to, are having a "field day" all about? 

Are you saying that these skeptics groups think that these US Navy's claims of UAP are all bogus?

-jbseth

Yes.  That's exactly what they are saying.

Quote from: usmaak
Things that I absolutely do not believe in, in no particular order - UFOs, astrology, religion.

So I will repeat jbseth's question, but to you, not the skeptics groups:

Are you saying that you think that these US Navy's claims of UAP are all bogus? If yes, do you have alternative explanations for the multiple videos taken by the US Navy?

Quote from: LarryH

Quote from: usmaak
Things that I absolutely do not believe in, in no particular order - UFOs, astrology, religion.

So I will repeat jbseth's question, but to you, not the skeptics groups:

Are you saying that you think that these US Navy's claims of UAP are all bogus? If yes, do you have alternative explanations for the multiple videos taken by the US Navy?

I don't know what to think.  Crazy times.

But let me turn that around and ask you.  Do you have any alternative explanations?

Edit: I've thought about it.  While I don't have any concrete explanations, it could still be fake.  I don't necessarily trust the government to have anyone else's best interests in mind, other than their own financial interests.  It could be a plot to keep the US population off balance.  Maybe they do truly believe it, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

Maybe it's really, truly a big pile of green anal probing aliens and they're sitting there saying, "oh shit!  I told Fred to make sure to turn on the cloaking and he forgot!"

Maybe they're visitors from another dimension and they're just discovering us and investigating.

I don't know.  What I do believe for certain, however, is that if this really is some kind of proof of life on another planet or dimension, it doesn't automatically authenticate every idea that humanity has had about aliens.  It doesn't mean that there's a spaceship hidden in Area 51 (though I am a big fan of the Roswell series).  All it would mean for certain is that yes, there is life elsewhere.

It comes down to my need of real proof in this matter, just like in every other matter.  A bunch of aliens stepping off of a ship and saying "Hey dudes, we come in peace" would do it for me.  A bunch of pictures and videos with government folks saying "hey, there might just be something to this" for sure doesn't do it for me.

Quote from: usmaak
And I don't consider myself a "Sethie" at all, or anything else, really.  I like the Seth material and have been reading it since the 80s, but I've also never seen any undeniable proof that any of it is real.  I mean it feels real, but can feeling really be counted as a fact?

Well, there you go, you've said it all. It sounds like my inner skeptic; if he was more dominant, then I might be looking for "proof" or "fact" also. In the end, though, my skeptic loses his arguments because his view of life is narrow. Experience is all we have and it sounds like you are very open to experience in great variety. So then feelings aren't unimportant, are they?

And I will not make any assumptions, so I ask: what are your views on reincarnation?

Quote from: usmaak
Do you have any alternative explanations?

Hi usmaak, Hi All,

Yes, I do have a plausible alternative explanation.  In several places, Seth actually talks about both UFO's and interdimensional travel. This is what Deb was referring to in her post above. What Seth actually says about interdimensional travel sounds quite a bit like, how the US Navy describes these UAP's.

The fact that nobody can to "prove" to you, to your level of satisfaction, that these UAP's do exist, does not in any way "prove" that they don't exist. 

As Deb mentioned in another topic I believe, many of the subjects that we talk about here really aren't provable one way or the other. I suspect that amongst others, this is probably one of them.

-jbseth

Quote from: KylePierce

Quote from: usmaak
And I don't consider myself a "Sethie" at all, or anything else, really.  I like the Seth material and have been reading it since the 80s, but I've also never seen any undeniable proof that any of it is real.  I mean it feels real, but can feeling really be counted as a fact?

Well, there you go, you've said it all. It sounds like my inner skeptic; if he was more dominant, then I might be looking for "proof" or "fact" also. In the end, though, my skeptic loses his arguments because his view of life is narrow. Experience is all we have and it sounds like you are very open to experience in great variety. So then feelings aren't unimportant, are they?

And I will not make any assumptions, so I ask: what are your views on reincarnation?

KylePierce, thank you for your response and not being devensive or dismissive of what I said.  That is often a rare thing.  I've read your posts and you do seem to have a very good understanding of all of this and regardless of what I might believe in any given moment, I do enjoy reading what you have to say.

As far as reincarnation...  I'd like to believe it.  For me, it's a better explanation of what happens after death than the whole heaven thing.  I certainly hope that it's true.  I've never seen any concrete proof.  If I've had previous lives, I have no memory of them.  Or maybe I do, but the memories are so intertwined in my reality that I don't realize that they are something else.  I'd like to believe that we go on in some manner.  My mom died a year and half ago and I just found out a couple of days that one of my childhood friends is no longer with us.  I hope in some manner that they have moved on to something subjectively better than this.

Quote from: jbseth
The fact that nobody can to "prove" to you, to your level of satisfaction, that these UAP's do exist, does not in any way "prove" that they don't exist.

I never said that it did.  I am self aware enough to realize that just because I don't believe something or require proof for my belief, that it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  I thought I was clear about that in my post.

Quote from: usmaak
It comes down to my need of real proof in this matter, just like in every other matter.  A bunch of aliens stepping off of a ship and saying "Hey dudes, we come in peace" would do it for me.

Wow, what a great turn this topic has taken! The quote above reminded me of the great movie, Mars Attacks. See below.

When I was reading the articles I posted this morning, it appears the US government is mostly concerned with security risks. My first thought has always been, if these sightings are real, any intelligent "alien" beings that are so advanced in technology could surely have wiped us off the planet decades ago if that was their intention. And I can take that back even further to at least ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs showing what appear to be space craft, and the Nascar lines in Peru that can only be truly appreciated by altitude that could not be reached at the time (500BC-500AD). Do I know for certain that's all real? Nope. I've never personally seen a UFO, but I've heard about them since I was a kid. But the government is seeing the sightings as potential technological advances of our earthly enemies.

I think critical thought and debunking are good and healthy. At least it works for me, or that's how I work. But I also love the idea that we don't know it all and there's always more to learn and discover.

I don't necessarily take a lack of incontrovertible proof of truth is proof that something doesn't exist. This: "The most important thing to me, and one of the biggest reasons why I am here, as well as other places, is that I keep an open mind to the possibilities. I don't really have any idea what is real and what isn't.  Maybe everything y'all talk about is the truth and I'm just getting in my own way by never being able to thoroughly believe anything" is a terrific attitude IMO! I've mentioned this documentary here a few times. I saw it at a ghost hunting trip to Dannybrook, PA, totally off topic for them, but I thought the witnesses were pretty impressive and it opened my mind to UFOs. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1340844/

Quote from: jbseth
As Deb mentioned in another topic I believe, many of the subjects that we talk about here really aren't provable one way or the other. I suspect that amongst others, this is probably one of them.

I totally agree, at least for now, the UFO stuff has not been proven to the general public. What governments have been hiding, if they have been, may tell a different story. I'm not a conspiracy person, but Larry posted a video of Obama answering a question about UFOs that I found pretty telling.

Update: BTW I thought Bashar's triangle UFO was pretty amazing.

Mars Attacks "We Come In Peace" Gak gak gak, gak gak.

Quote from: Tob
According to Bashar the 'Phoenix lights' were a spaceship as well. Hybrids on board. The event occurred over Phoenix as the name 'Phoenix' does represent the resurrection from the ashes.

Hi Tob, Hi All,

Thanks for sharing that Tob. I've always thought that the "Phoenix Lights" may have been a spacecraft. As I recall from some of the stories that I heard, it must have been really large.

-jbseth

Quote from: usmaak
But let me turn that around and ask you.  Do you have any alternative explanations?

I don't really need alternative explanations, since I believe that the Navy has been recording and witnessing real events, not making it all up. I cannot come to concrete conclusions about the nature of their reality, just as the Navy has not, except to list their anomalous characteristics. But I think someone who "absolutely" does not believe that the phenomena exist may not allow any proof to change their mind.

Quote from: LarryH

Quote from: usmaak
But let me turn that around and ask you.  Do you have any alternative explanations?

I don't really need alternative explanations, since I believe that the Navy has been recording and witnessing real events, not making it all up. I cannot come to concrete conclusions about the nature of their reality, just as the Navy has not, except to list their anomalous characteristics. But I think someone who "absolutely" does not believe that the phenomena exist may not allow any proof to change their mind.

Ok.  Cool.

Quote from: Deb
I think critical thought and debunking are good and healthy.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

I personally think that critical thought and debunking may not always be good and healthy. Instead, I think that sometimes they can be relied upon too much, which may in some cases, not be good and unhealthy.  Here's what I'm getting at.


Soren Kierkegaard said the following.

"There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true."




I've always felt that the best way to minimize the risk of falling into either one of these two categories is to approach things with a combination of both: 1) "critical thinking" and 2) "open-mindedness".

It has been my experience that those people who are too open minded, and don't use critical thinking, run the risk of being fooled into believing in things that aren't true. These are the people who believe in the "sentient cucumbers".

On the other hand, some people may rely too much upon their critical thinking and in doing so they can become closed off to other ideas or possibilities. While these other ideas don't necessarily have any legitimacy in regards to critical thinking, they may, in fact, have some merit.  Here I'm talking about ideas like simultaneous time, probable realities and Framework 2, for example. 

When we look at out at our physical world reality with a "critical" approach, there's no reason to believe that all time is simultaneous. This however, doesn't necessarily prove, that this concept isn't actually valid.

As people rely more and more upon their critical thinking, they may never consider or even realize that these other possibilities (simultaneous time, probable realities or Framework 2, etc.) might exist. And since there's no "critical" reason for believing in them, then they must not be valid or have any merit. Thus, these people run the risk of being fooled by not believing in some things that are or may be true.


For me, I think that the real trick here is to constantly be on-guard as to what it is that I think and say, so as to make sure that I don't fall into either one of these two categories.  You may have noticed that I never said that this was easy. Nor, am I always necessarily successful at it.


-jbseth

All I can say is that I read all kinds of different things and participate in all sorts of different groups so that I can keep an open mind.  Sure, my mind is open to some things more than others.  Seth is my main go to because something about it on some level just feels right to me.  Certainly not all of it.  But deep down in that area that logic argues against, there is just something about the material that keeps me coming back.  There's always been something about it.

In the end, I don't know what's real and what isn't. My physical senses are pretty damned persistent in telling me what's what.  But I don't discount the idea that the world might be so much more complex than it appears to be in my day-to-day life.  I also realize that I am never going to get the proof that I'd like to see.  That's where faith comes in, and faith is a hard road for me.  I want to believe and sometimes I feel like that wanting is what keeps me from getting there.  Hey, look at that.  The Law of Attraction at work.  I want to believe so what I'm getting is more wanting to believe.

I'm just a mess.

Oh, and the sad thing about my use of "sentient cucumbers" is that in this country and all over the internet, I'm just afraid that I'll pick some belief that is absolutely ridiculous to me, only to insult someone because they believe it.  And I'm not talking about UFOs or anything like that.  Speaking of which, wouldn't it be funny if sentient cucumbers actually did exist and it turned out that they were our alien overlords??

Quote from: Deb
I think critical thought and debunking are good and healthy.

Deb, I believe when you say "debunking", you mean skepticism. In my view, debunking is an act of denouncing or berating a claim or belief, often at the expense of critical thought. Skepticism is an attitude of withholding belief until sufficient evidence is available.

Quote from: LarryH

Quote from: Deb
I think critical thought and debunking are good and healthy.

Deb, I believe when you say "debunking", you mean skepticism. In my view, debunking is an act of denouncing or berating a claim or belief, often at the expense of critical thought. Skepticism is an attitude of withholding belief until sufficient evidence is available.

Yes thanks, you're correct, I did mean being skeptical, rather than automatically believing everything I hear or read, or being cynical and rejecting everything. A leftover term from my old ghost hunting days... I was curious then about whether ghosts are real. Some of the people took every little thing to be proof, others were more reserved and would try to "debunk" an event to see if had a natural explanation. So my personal definition is not an "act of denouncing or berating," but more an objective testing to see if something really is what it appears to be. The majority of things people thought were ghosts (such as orbs in photographs) turned out to have natural explanations. The things that were not debunked were accepted as something that couldn't be explained. Of course there were also those who were convinced the event was caused by a ghost. 

Quote from: jbseth
I personally think that critical thought and debunking may not always be good and healthy. Instead, I think that sometimes they can be relied upon too much, which may in some cases, not be good and unhealthy. 

Well Larry got me to explain myself about debunking (my definition vs. his), but I still feel critical thought is my friend, and it may just be another matter of personal definitions and even degree. I don't feel critical thinking means to automatically reject or discount things outside a person's current beliefs or knowledge. To me it means to act thoughtfully, do my homework or a little research, consider the source, etc. and not just automatically accept everything I read or am told. And not with the "little stuff," usually for me things that are what I consider outside common belief or understanding. Yet, I also rely on my intuition quite a bit, and that usually overrides critical thought. I think even with thoughts and beliefs, there can be extremes in either direction, and extremes are problematic.

Hi Deb, Hi All,

I don't think that being skeptical is necessarily bad. After all, it is skepticism that keeps me from believing in sentient cucumbers.  That being said however, how people express their skepticism as in when they berate someone for their opposing ideas or beliefs (as sometimes happens with debunking) can be offensive and is entirely unnecessary.

Actually, in my post above, it was the "critical thought" aspect of your previous comment, that I was referring to and not the "debunking" aspect.


I have several friends who are very much of a "scientific" mind. For one of them in particular, science proves and disproves everything. Science proves that there is no God; there was a Big Bang some billions of years ago. Science proves that consciousness is just a phenomena that results from the chemical soup of interactions that occur within the brain. Science proves that ESP and psychic phenomena don't exist, because if they did exist then science would have proved this. Science also proves that there is no life after death, because, once again if there was, then science would have already proven it.

This man says that by using "critical thinking", scientists have proven all of these things and it is this specific type of "critical thinking" that I was specifically talking about.


My friend is definitely not open-minded. He definitely wouldn't ever consider the possibility that intuitive ideas actually come to him.  And even though he might consider using the imagination to "brain–storm" a new scientific idea, I seriously doubt that he would ever consider the possibility that he could use his imagination to contemplate ideas that might be different than his scientific viewpoint (as in, "what if" as Seth says, all time really is simultaneous, or "what if" as Seth says, probable realities do exist).

Oddly enough, if "science" indicates that time is relative and may not be what we think it is, or if science postulates the existence of probable universes, then, these ideas would be worth exploring because, "science" postulates them.


This, specifically is an example of what I was referring to when I was talking about people being closed – minded and locked into their "critical thinking".

- jbseth

Quote from: jbseth
I don't think that being skeptical is necessarily bad. After all, it is skepticism that keeps me from believing in sentient cucumbers.  That being said however, how people express their skepticism as in when they berate someone for their opposing ideas or beliefs (as sometimes happens with debunking) can be offensive and is entirely unnecessary.

As an aside, I hope that I haven't berated anyone or been offensive in any way.  I go out of my way to try and avoid being that way.  I don't like to make people upset, hurt feelings or anything like that.

Quote from: usmaak

Quote from: jbseth
I don't think that being skeptical is necessarily bad. After all, it is skepticism that keeps me from believing in sentient cucumbers.  That being said however, how people express their skepticism as in when they berate someone for their opposing ideas or beliefs (as sometimes happens with debunking) can be offensive and is entirely unnecessary.

As an aside, I hope that I haven't berated anyone or been offensive in any way.  I go out of my way to try and avoid being that way.  I don't like to make people upset, hurt feelings or anything like that.

In my mind, berating someone for having opposing ideas speaks more to the personality of the one doing the berating. For me, there's a difference between judging and attacking someone who has different ideas and options, and having a discussion or agreeing to disagree and then moving on. Some people just enjoy arguing. I sometimes read the Comments at the bottom of news articles, and I'm usually appalled at how people behave. 

usmaak, you are certainly not offensive in any way. 

So, the Pentagon has released its report on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP).  Does this report give you all any of the insights you were hoping for?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/politics/full-text-pentagon-ufo-report-/index.html

I haven't read the report yet, though mainstream news has been talking about it. But I wanted to mention that tonight on the Travel Channel, I watched the highly acclaimed UFO documentary The Phenomenon. I have to say that it was very well-done.

Quote from: usmaak
So, the Pentagon has released its report on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena (UAP).  Does this report give you all any of the insights you were hoping for?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/25/politics/full-text-pentagon-ufo-report-/index.html

Nothing very exciting, according to the report:

QuoteAirborne Clutter: These objects include birds, balloons, recreational unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), or airborne debris like plastic bags that muddle a scene and affect an operator's ability to identify true targets, such as enemy aircraft.

usmaak, you may be interested in this book, which is avaliable for free download:

https://www.llresearch.org/library/secrets_of_the_ufo_pdf/secrets_of_the_ufo_pdf.aspx

Quote from: Sena
usmaak, you may be interested in this book, which is avaliable for free download:

https://www.llresearch.org/library/secrets_of_the_ufo_pdf/secrets_of_the_ufo_pdf.aspx

Richard Dolan: A.D. The Day After Disclosure. Downloadable

https://avalonlibrary.net/ebooks/Richard%20Dolan,%20Bryce%20Zabel%20-%20A.D.%20After%20Disclosure%20-%20When%20the%20Government%20Finally%20Reveals%20the%20Truth%20About%20Alien%20Contact%20(2012).pdf

This book has been explicitly recommended by Bashar a few years ago. Disclosure is not so easy. You cannot just open a few files. The Governments will have to explain their former policies of non-disclosure, vulgo: their lies. This will shatter political systems, as there may be well more that has not come to the surface.

Quote from: Tob
Disclosure is not so easy. You cannot just open a few files. The Governments will have to explain their former policies of non-disclosure, vulgo: their lies. This will shatter political systems, as there may be well more that has not come to the surface.

Though it likely makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist, one thing that I think is that the government has likely told us more lies than truths.  About many things.

Hi All, Hi usmaak,

I read the article that usmaak posted, thanks usmaak,  and here's what I got from this.




They reported upon 144 UAP sightings.
"The report examined 144 reports of what the government terms "unidentified aerial phenomenon" — only one of which investigators were able to explain by the end of the study. "

"We were able to identify one reported UAP with high confidence. In that case, we identified the object as a large, deflating balloon. The others remain unexplained," the report says, using the Pentagon's terminology for UFOs. "





Their wording they used was interesting.
"Of the 144 reports we are dealing with here, we have no clear indications that there is any non-terrestrial explanation for them..."

The fact that they had,,"no clear indications..." also doesn't mean that there isn't a non-terrestrial explanation for them.




They believe that these items are "physical".
""We absolutely do believe what we're seeing are not simply sensor artifacts. These are things that physically exist," the official said, noting that 80 of the reported incidents included data from multiple sensors. In 11 cases, pilots reported a "near-miss" collision with these strange objects. "




These UAP's may pose a problem.
"But despite that challenge, the report does conclude that these objects "clearly pose a safety of flight issue and may pose a challenge to US national security."



These may have been clustered are US training grounds.
"Worryingly for national security professionals, the report also found that the sightings were "clustered" around US training and testing grounds. But investigators downplayed those concerns, assessing that "this may result from a collection bias as a result of focused attention, greater numbers of latest-generation sensors operating in those areas, unit expectations and guidance to report anomalies."

Some of the UFO reports that I've heard about were specifically made by former military personal, who claimed to see UFO's at military installations.




There were more siting, than those being reported.
"Even as sightings of unexplainable objects rose into the hundreds, Pentagon officials wrestled with how much time and resources to devote to investigating them."

"Most of the 144 sightings covered in the report were recorded by US Navy pilots, although there were some reports from other US government sources — a clear "reporting bias" in the data set investigators examined, the US official said."





I seriously doubt that this report will do anything to seriously change the beliefs of those people who are skeptics and who don't believe in UAP's and who don't believe that some people may have either seen a UFO, or may have been abducted by ET's.

I also seriously doubt that this report will do anything to seriously change the beliefs of those people who have either experienced or seen some odd phenomena, and as a result of this, have come to believe in the existence of UFO's and perhaps ET's as well.

For me at least, I find it refreshing to think, that at least some people within the US hierarchy, are acknowledging the existence that some UAP phenomena that appears to exist.

I also find it entirely plausible that UFO's / ET's might exist, that the US government may know much more about this topic than they are sharing with us and that the comments just made by Tob about the issues with disclosure may have some real merit to them.


-jbseth

Quote from: jbseth
I seriously doubt that this report will do anything to seriously change the beliefs of those people who are skeptics and who don't believe in UAP's and who don't believe that some people may have either seen a UFO, or may have been abducted by ET's.

I also seriously doubt that this report will do anything to seriously change the beliefs of those people who have either experienced or seen some odd phenomena, and as a result of this, have come to believe in the existence of UFO's and perhaps ET's as well.

For me at least, I find it refreshing to think, that at least some people within the US hierarchy, are acknowledging the existence that some UAP phenomena that appears to exist.

I also find it entirely plausible that UFO's / ET's might exist, that the US government may know much more about this topic than they are sharing with us and that the comments just made by Tob about the issues with disclosure may have some real merit to them.

From the report: "Other: Although most of the UAP described in our dataset probably remain unidentified due to limited data or challenges to collection processing or analysis, we may require additional scientific knowledge to successfully collect on, analyze and characterize some of them. We would group such objects in this category pending scientific advances that allowed us to better understand them. The UAPTF intends to focus additional analysis on the small number of cases where a UAP appeared to display unusual flight characteristics or signature management."

I think here it is. Unspectacular to the maximum. But they committed themselves to pursue this avenue further, as security issues might be implied. They can't go back behind that.

Quote from: jbseth
They believe that these items are "physical".
""We absolutely do believe what we're seeing are not simply sensor artifacts. These are things that physically exist," the official said, noting that 80 of the reported incidents included data from multiple sensors. In 11 cases, pilots reported a "near-miss" collision with these strange objects. "

jbseth, physical items like plastic bags? It seems to me that "near-miss collisions" don't mean very much. Reports of individuals conversing with alien beings are more convincing.

For many of the UAP examples being investigated, what they have concluded is that the phenomena are physical, intelligently controlled, and displaying capabilities and technology that are far beyond any known to the investigators. They cannot scientifically prove that they are of extraterrestrial, extradimensional, subterranean, underwater, or non-human origin. However, if it were used as evidence in a court of law, the "preponderance of evidence" would suggest that they are among those possibilities, still without proving anything. I think people have enough evidence to be willing to lean in those directions without requiring the Navy to make unscientific claims.

Quote from: Sena
jbseth, physical items like plastic bags? It seems to me that "near-miss collisions" don't mean very much. Reports of individuals conversing with alien beings are more convincing.

Hi Sena, Hi All,

If you don't think that these "near-miss collisions" mean very much, that is OK with me.  I'm not trying to convince you of something that you don't believe in, nor am I interested that.

In one of the US Navy videos that I saw, one of the people said that some of these UAP sightings displayed  incredible behavior, such as an object that travelled from near sea level to something like 35,000 feet in mere seconds. I'm not aware of any plastic bags that behave like that.

That kind of behavior, I think is probably what the Navy is concerned about. Especially if the object is something that's made out of a fairly strong material such as steel for example.

-jbseth







                     

Here's a CNN analysis of the report, for whatever that's worth.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/26/politics/odni-ufo-report-takeaways/index.html

Well I have to say I was half hopeful that the report would reveal some interesting information. But I understand the caution and hesitancy.

And wonder about what's honest vs. damage control, considering that all of this has been kept quiet... forever. So we are back to relying on leaked information to be able to develop our own opinions, regardless of the subject matter.

Fine, I can be patient.

"Most Americans believe in intelligent life beyond Earth; few see UFOs as a major national security threat" per Pew Research Center poll: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/30/most-americans-believe-in-intelligent-life-beyond-earth-few-see-ufos-as-a-major-national-security-threat/

It's a good thing the military has not concluded that the UAPs are hostile because if they did, they would have to enact a tic tac attack tactic.