~Speaking of Seth~

This topic was suggested to me when I was thinking about why All That Is "permitted" the Holocaust to take place. In theology this is referred to as "the problem of Evil". The problem is why did an omniscient, omnipotent, "good" God permit the Holocaust to take. I think the solution that Seth suggests is that All That Is is NOT omniscient or omnipotent. The teaching of All That Is according to Seth is summarized here:

http://www.fromthestars.com/page178.html

"He is not human in your terms, though he passed through human stages; and here the Buddhist myth comes closest to approximating reality. He is not one individual, but an energy gestalt.*

* Gestalt = a pattern of individual parts so unified as a whole that it cannot be described merely
   as a sum of its parts

This absolute, ever-expanding, instantaneous psychic gestalt, which you call God if you prefer, is so secure in its existence that it can constantly break itself down and rebuild itself.

Its energy is so unbelievable, that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, systems and fields, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls.

Now - and this will seem like a contradiction in terms - there is nonbeing. It is a state of, not of nothingness, but a state in which probabilities and possibilities are known and anticipated but blocked from expression.

Dimly, through what you would call history, hardly remembered, there was such a state. It was a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known.

This is the lesson that All That Is had to learn, and that could not be taught. This is the agony from which creativity originally was drawn, and its reflection is still seen.

Some of this discussion is bound to be distorted, because I must explain it to you in terms of time as you understand it. So I will speak for your benefit, of some indescribably distant past in which these events occurred.

All That Is retains memory of that state, and it serves as a constant impetus - in your terms - toward renewed creativity. Each self (you), as a part of All That Is therefore also retains memory of that state. It is for this reason that each minute consciousness is endowed with the impetus toward survival, change, development, and creativity. It is not enough that All That Is as a primary energy gestalt, desires further being, but each portion of It (you) also carries this determination.

Yet the agony itself was used as the means, and the agony itself served as the impetus, strong enough so that All That Is initiated within Itself the means to be.

If - and this is impossible - all portions but the most minute last 'unit' of All That Is were destroyed, All That Is would continue, for within the smallest portion is the innate knowledge of the whole. All That Is protects Itself, therefore, and all that It has and is and will create.

When I speak of All That Is, you must understand my position within It. All That Is knows no other. This does not mean that there may not be more to know. It does not know whether or not other psychic gestalts like It exist. It is not aware of them if they do exist. It is constantly searching. It knows that something else existed before Its own primary dilemma when it could not express itself.

It is conceivable then, that It has evolved, in your terms, so long ago It has forgotten Its origin, that It has developed from still another Primary which has - again, in your terms - long since gone Its way. So there are answers that I cannot give you, for they are not known anywhere in the system in which we have our existence. We do know that within this system of our All That Is, creation continues and developments are never still.

The first state of agonized search for existence may have represented the birth throes of All That Is as we know it.

In other words, All That Is existed in a state of being, but without the means to find expression for Its being. This was the state of agony of which I spoke.

The agony and the desire to create represented Its proof of Its own reality. The feelings, in other words, were adequate proof to All That Is that It was.

At first, in your terms, all of probable reality existed as nebulous dreams within the consciousness of All That Is. Later, the unspecific nature of these 'dreams' grew more particular and vivid. The dreams became recognizable one from the other until they drew the conscious notice of All That Is. And with curiosity and yearning, All That Is paid more attention to Its own dreams.

It then purposely gave them more and more detail, and yearned toward this diversity and grew to love that which was not yet separate from Itself. It gave consciousness and imagination to personalities (us) while they were still within Its dreams. They also yearned to be actual.

Potential individuals, in your terms, had consciousness before the beginning or any beginning as you know it, then. They (you) clamored to be released into actuality, and All That Is, in unspeakable sympathy, sought within Itself for the means.

His was in your terms a primary cosmic dilemma, and one with which It wrestled until All That Is was completely involved and enveloped within that cosmic problem.

Had It not solved it, All That Is would have faced insanity, and there would have been, literally, a reality without reason and a universe run wild.

The pressure came from two sources: from the conscious but still probable individual selves who found themselves alive in God's dream, and from the God who yearned to release them.

This, then, is the dilemma of any primary pyramid gestalt: It creates reality. It also recognized within each consciousness (you) the massive potential that existed. The means, then, came to It. It must release the creatures and probabilities from Its dream.

To do so would give them actuality. However, it also meant 'losing' a portion of Its own consciousness, for it was within that portion that they were held in bondage. All That Is had to let go.

With love and longing It let go that portion of Itself, and they (souls) were free. The psychic energy exploded in a flash of creation (big bang).

All That Is, therefore, 'lost' a portion of Itself in that creative endeavor. All That Is loves all that is has created down to the least, for It realizes the dearness and uniqueness of each consciousness which has been wrest from such a state and at such a price.

It, of Itself and from this state, has given life to infinities of possibilities. From Its agony, It found the way to burst forth in freedom, through expression, and in so doing gave existence to individualized consciousnesses. Therefore It is rightfully jubilant.

Yet all individuals remember their source, and now dream of All That Is as All That Is once dreamed of them. And they yearn toward that immense source... and yearn to set It free and give It actuality through their own creations.

These connections between you and All That Is can never be severed, and Its awareness is so delicate and focused that Its attention is indeed directed with a prime creator's love to each consciousness."

At the end of this session with Jane Roberts, Seth said that his words should be read many times, "for there are implications that are not obvious."

Seth also said...

"Even this overall pyramid gestalt (God) is not static. Most of your God concepts deal with a static God, and here is one of your main theological difficulties. The awareness and experience of this gestalt changes and grows. There is no static God. When you say 'This is God,' then God is already something else."

"All portions of All That Is are constantly changing, enfolding and unfolding. All That Is, seeking to know Itself, constantly creates new versions of Itself. For this seeking Itself is a creative activity and is the core of all action."       

Seth says that All That Is knows about every sparrow that falls to the ground. But this may not be omniscience, because he also says that there was "a state of agony in which the powers of creativity and existence were known, but the ways to produce them were not known."

Knowing about every sparrow that falls to the ground is factual information. It appears that All That Is possesses unlimited factual information, but his/her understanding is/was limited in a particular way. It is not possible to say that this limitation existed in the past and has now been resolved. This is because there is no past/present/ future outside physical reality.

It could be that All That Is (I am speculating here) needs human beings in order to increase his/her understanding.

 

The mistake to me of all religions is assigning human values and/or morality, not to mention "judgement" to something is beyond human morality, and is not even expressable in linear human terms.

Basically I'm saying religions are both backwards and stupid. They try to stuff big ideas into neat little boxes, and when, inevitably those big ideas don't fit, they go start a war or do a bit of torture etc, as if that would make a lick of difference.

It's human arrogance to try to define in our terms, rather than trying to better understand all that is, on ITS own terms.

Quote from: John SorensenIt's human arrogance to try to define in our terms, rather than trying to better understand all that is, on ITS own terms.

John, it seems to me that you have then created a duality. (Maybe I have done that as well in my post above). My understanding is that All That Is includes every human being.
P.S. I'll be without internet access for the next few days.

It could be that All That Is (I am speculating here) needs human beings in order to increase his/her understanding.
This comes up a lot in Abraham Hicks and Bashar.

There are just some people who enjoy that level of blood and guts and potential death.  There are those people who see themselves as victims or are caught up in a society that has a long tradition of turmoil.  They accept without question that that is the way things are.  So these two factions are compatible.

I have two sons.  One can sit in the corner for hours and draw and is an extremely peaceful person.  The other needs to be on the go and loves edgy drama with lots of risk involved.  They could not tolerate eachother's life.

I have got this book "Living a Safe Universe: A Book for Seth Readers (Volume 1)" by Lynda Madden Dahl, and I have read about one-third of it. She gives valuable insight into the nature of All That Is, and how humans relate to All That Is. This book is the first of four volumes. I shall write a summary of the book after I finish reading it.

The Micro mirrors the Macro.
This has been a good guide for me.  As a "splinter" of God Energy I assume I reflect the desires of God.  If I'm not doing something creative I feel lost.  If I'm not out in nature regularly I feel lethargic.
The Love the Creator has for IT's "children" is reflected in my children.  I protect them but know that I have to give them space to be themselves and I delight in their creations that go beyond what I have instilled in them.  I feel lost without them having their own lives but am fulfilled by knowing that they are creating new lives out of their own childhood.

I hold creative projects and desires that sometimes don't reveal themselves for years though I have sensed their energy building within me.  I delight as I remember MY SELF.

I feel the connection to the ALL of creation and feel agony when I can't experience it all at once.  It's  an absolutely  gorgeous day and I have a bit of stress that I'm not down at the river, or working on an art project, or baking something....but I'm on the Seth forum.   

If this is MY Life and I am a Splinter of God then do I mirror ALL that IS??  How could God experience less than I do?

Quote from: Sena
I have got this book "Living a Safe Universe: A Book for Seth Readers (Volume 1)" by Lynda Madden Dahl, and I have read about one-third of it. She gives valuable insight into the nature of All That Is, and how humans relate to All That Is. This book is the first of four volumes. I shall write a summary of the book after I finish reading it.

I've read Lynda's books and am really interested in your thoughts when you finish it.  It might be worth starting a new topic on whichever forum you think is appropriate for your feedback so we can discuss it.

Quote from: DandelionI've read Lynda's books and am really interested in your thoughts when you finish it.  It might be worth starting a new topic on whichever forum you think is appropriate for your feedback so we can discuss it.

Hi Dandelion, it's good to see you active in the forum. There are two or three posts on Lynda Dahl on the forum, but no separate thread. You would be welcome to start a thread on her books. It would probably be most appropriate under "Discussions". I don't think it would go under "Other Teachers" because Lynda is clearly interpreting Seth (and doing that extremely well) rather than claiming to channel another teacher.

Again I'm reminded of the reflections going on from within and without.

How often the idea of 'letting go' comes up in order to help people overcome past trauma or even face anxieties related to future probabilities. And we find in Seth's quote that ATI's agony was relieved once It let go of its creations.

Almost as if ATI was trying to micro manage the entire multiverse...

Even in our own creativity. Seth talks about relaxing through the process. Dropping the idea into F2 then having faith that it will be done.

'True creativity comes from enjoying the moments, which then fulfill themselves, and a part of the creative process is indeed the art of relaxation, the letting go, for that triggers magical activity...' The Magical Approach, Session 1, (9.53pm to 10.05pm).

John's comment has great insight. We can discuss this academically, but trying to fit into our terms that thing that created both us, and our terms, becomes a touch futile, and if not careful, as most religions have not been, quite arrogant. Nevertheless I'm finding the idea of 'process' quite interesting.

Watching Bob Proctor recently and he said something that piqued my interest. He said Mind is an activity. It got me thinking (pun intended). Then I came across this...
'Man's mind is more of a process. It is not a completed thing, like an arm or leg, but a relationship and a process. That process has its source in what I can only call "natural reasoning".' The Magical Approach, Session 8 (9.25pm)

And from Sena's quote;

'All portions of All That Is are constantly changing, enfolding and unfolding. All That Is, seeking to know Itself, constantly creates new versions of Itself. For this seeking Itself is a creative activity and is the core of all action."

So an idea of an omni God figure, static in its knowledge of everything that is, has been and will be, seems to go against any creative processes that are being put forward. In fact, the word 'creativity' seems pointless if we take the traditional ideas about God seriously. Moreover, from a reflective argument, there is nothing that is static in the universe. All energy is in some kind of movement. So ATI might just be another process born from another Primary Energy. And perhaps we all are a process to become a new ATI in some distant future.

The argument then arises regarding some kind of Primary Being. But I think that's where mankind can get a little arrogant.

'But it has to start somewhere!'

Does it?

LK

I like and am frustrated by the duality of "All Time is Now" and  "ATI is a process of unfolding".

Somewhere I read that we understand ATI by reconciling paradox.  A Cosmic Koan.

"... People believe that there is one great truth, that it will appear and they will know it. Now a flower is a truth. So is a lamp bulb. So is an idiot and a genius, a glass and an ant. There is little exterior similarity, however.
(10:24.) Truth is all of these seemingly distinct, separate, different realities..."
SS s.596

Quote from: sethspeaks"... People believe that there is one great truth,

Quote from: sethspeaks"What so many want is a God who walks down the street and
says,"Happy Sunday, I am I, follow me".

These are very much related in my mind.
People these days (maybe in forever days, from the beginning) seem to want everything handed to them, including their own beliefs. No thoughts, homework, questions or research involved. "Don't make me think." It troubles me. But then I've always been told I'm "too much in my head" and don't just accept things at face value. Like that's bad: a character flaw.

Quote from: John Sorensen
The mistake to me of all religions is assigning human values and/or morality, not to mention "judgement" to something is beyond human morality, and is not even expressable in linear human terms.

Basically I'm saying religions are both backwards and stupid. They try to stuff big ideas into neat little boxes, and when, inevitably those big ideas don't fit, they go start a war or do a bit of torture etc, as if that would make a lick of difference.

It's human arrogance to try to define in our terms, rather than trying to better understand all that is, on ITS own terms.

Quote from: Sena

Quote from: John SorensenIt's human arrogance to try to define in our terms, rather than trying to better understand all that is, on ITS own terms.

John, it seems to me that you have then created a duality. (Maybe I have done that as well in my post above). My understanding is that All That Is includes every human being.
P.S. I'll be without internet access for the next few days.

It is also my understanding that All That Is is part of all human beings.
To keep things simple, I'll use as an example a cosmic storyteller.
Who creates a really nice story.
Such a nice story that the characters take on seemingly a life of their own.
Wherever these characters go, and whatever they do, they are still and always will be a part of the storyteller who dreamed them up, and imbued with the qualities of expansion, expression, experience and becoming and endless creativity.

And yes I'm quoting myself. This is John. I'm re-branding. I've had a lot of anger to let go of in the last couple of months, and a new forum name, a new friendlier attitude and calmer "persona" will go down a treat in making the considerable effort on my part to be kinder and gentler online to one and all.
I'm also using this username name on all forums i frequent these days, as my blog (about Batman) is one of my main focuses these days, and influences pretty much everything, even my Seth blog. But my Seth blog has also influenced my other writings.

Seth repeatedly emphasizes the Divine within every human being:

"Man cannot mistrust his own nature and at the same time trust the nature of God, for God is his word for the source of his being — and if his being is tainted, then so must be his God." (The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events, a Seth book)

http://ru.jane-roberts.wikia.com/wiki/Chapter_2_(1981)_The_Individual_and_the_Nature_of_Mass_Events

Quote from: SenaThis topic was suggested to me when I was thinking about why All That Is "permitted" the Holocaust to take place. In theology this is referred to as "the problem of Evil". The problem is why did an omniscient, omnipotent, "good" God permit the Holocaust to take.

Hi Sena, Hi All,

The way I see it, there are two major thinking errors involved in this question regarding "the problem of Evil."  The first thinking error has to do with an understanding of the nature of God and the second thinking error has to do with who is actually responsible for permitting the Holocaust to occur.


Regarding the first thinking error, I would say that it is true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent or "good" God, would not have permitted the Holocaust to take place. Thus, since the Holocaust did take place, then either God isn't omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, or perhaps our understanding of who and what God is, is all wrong. Given these 2 options, I'd vote for the latter.

Regarding the second thinking error, I would say that the real issue here is that it was humanity that "permitted" the Holocaust to occur.  And, why did we permit this? Because, as a race, we are very unevolved and unenlightened.

People don't like to face the fact, it was actually humanity that permitted the Holocaust to occur. They also don't like to face the fact that as a race, we are very unevolved and unenlightened.  As a race, it is so much easier just to shirk this responsibility and blame the Holocaust on God.

To see why I say that we are very unevolved and unenlightened, consider this. Imagine for a moment what the world would be like if the entire human race was highly evolved and enlightened, such as Christ, Buddha or Krishna. Do you think that such an evolved humanity would ever "permit" an event such as the Holocaust to occur?

I don't. And the fact that we did allow it to occur indicates that, as a race, we are not very evolved and enlightened. 

This, I think is the real issue here.  Any thoughts?

Quote from: jbsethAnd the fact that we did allow it to occur indicates that, as a race, we are not very evolved and enlightened. 

jbseth,
Thanks for your well-considered remarks on this topic. Yes, I agree that the human race is "not very evolved and enlightened". This means that something like the holocaust could happen again, but my feeling is that "those above" will prevent it. The Buddha came and went, and his teachings were distorted, similarly with Christ. Seth's revelation was completed in the early eighties, the impact of that on the human race as a whole has been minimal.
This topic links in with Deb's thread on "the Suicide Generation", and also with what I have posted reecently on Suzy Hansen. The latter is of the view that extraterrestrials are actively intervening on Planet Earth, probably to prevent more disasters occurring.

http://www.communicatorlink.com/index.php

Here is a video clip in which Rudy Schild speaks about contact with aliens:

Quote from: jbsethperhaps our understanding of who and what God is, is all wrong

Quote from: jbsethPeople don't like to face the fact, it was actually humanity that permitted the Holocaust to occur.

Not being religious (but raised Catholic, so I did have some beliefs around who and what God is supposed to be), I feel that our source is intelligent consciousness but not calling the shots for us in this existence. How would we learn?

This is our playground and we are making our reality on personal and mass levels. I agree that humanity is what failed in the Holocaust and all the other 'bad' things that happen in this world. It's a part of the sometimes painful learning process. And while it went too far and too long, the failure was corrected. The Holocaust was ended and was a big lesson for humanity, not soon forgotten. I feel source is neutrally supportive of our choices, not interfering the way I was taught 'God' would do. Which is why the law of attraction can work for or against us: we get what we concentrate upon.

I don't think humanity  is resposible for the holocaust , i think this is a cranky idea . If you spoke to most people alive at the time of the holo' im sure you would find that they would be appalled at the idea . it was only the few assholes in power who manipulated the mass awareness to fit their own distorted beliefs that caused such digraceful actions . it can be clearly seen that it was + still is the ruling elites who create all of the 'false flag' situations that have led to the dire wars that have ruined so many peoples lives .

        ALL of the wars are because some greedy wankers want control of something or another ie the wars that go on in the middle east for the oil , + how many of them do you think have shares in the military industrial complex + who are tasked to rebuild (so called) in the aftermath . If we took all of these super rich manipulators + shot the basterds , how many wars do you think we would have ?    Probably not one .  Its not humanity at large who are responsible , its the few .

       But then how would the populations of the world be kept from exploding . Our only responsibility is that we have not dealt with the mass explosion of births in the world + without a doubt in my mind we will continue to have wars , famines + incurable diseases until we come together as a whole + deal with this massive issue .If not then the world soul will cause another great flood or some such thing .

But Paul, how do you REALLY feel?

Quote from: voidypaulit was only the few assholes in power who manipulated the mass awareness to fit their own distorted beliefs that caused such digraceful actions .

If we make our own reality, then how could the mass awareness be so easily manipulated? Seems to be there was a whole lot of unconsciousness going on. Yes, most were sickened and horrified. Hearing of the latest earthquake, tsunami, plane crash, is bad enough, but natural disasters are impersonal. The Holocaust was intentional and very personal. Deliberate hateful crimes against mankind—by man. If you believe Seth's teachings, do you believe in mass consciousness/mass events?

Seth was speaking of natural disasters here (quote below), but I don't feel I'm taking the concept itself out of context. While I don't mean every person existing on the planet during the Holocaust was involved or in agreement, there were enough people that participated (or allowed themselves to be manipulated) that it reached horrifying proportions. Because I believe we make our own reality, there is no other explanation, unless I am expected to believe in the existence of an evil force or entity.

NOPR Session 664:

"In many cases a near-conscious realization of the circumstances occurs beforehand. In other cases the body's foreknowledge is reflected in dream, and so alters daily life that an escape takes place. Some people change their plans and leave town for a day before a disaster comes about. Others stay.

"None of this is accidental. Unconscious material is admitted into consciousnesses according to those beliefs an individual holds about himself, his reality, and his place in it. No one dies in a disaster who has not chosen to do so. There is always some conscious recognition, however, though the individual may play tricks with himself and pretend it is not there. Even animals sense their dying ahead of time, and on that level man is no different.

"Those who want to use their unconscious precognition of such an event will take advantage of it—save themselves, and choose not to be involved. If they do not believe in such advance warnings and deny themselves conscious knowledge, yet still believe in their overall security, they will unconsciously act without knowledge of their reasons. There will be others who are a part of calamity for their own reasons.

"Psychically, mentally and physically, they will be as much a part of such an event as, say, the water that sweeps through a town in a flood. They will utilize the physical catastrophe as an individual might use a symptom for purposes of challenge, growth, or understanding—but they will choose their disaster just as they will choose their symptoms. They will be aware of the framework, therefore. It will not be thrust upon them.

"They may not consciously accept such information, but if they know how to examine themselves, they would discover that their beliefs added to precisely the given kind of situation." [My underscore here.]

I feel this makes sense on both the parts of the perpetrators and the victims, hard as that is to swallow.

There's quite a bit about Hitler in NOPR. Mass Events, sessions 852-53.

Quote from: jbseth

Quote from: SenaThis topic was suggested to me when I was thinking about why All That Is "permitted" the Holocaust to take place. In theology this is referred to as "the problem of Evil". The problem is why did an omniscient, omnipotent, "good" God permit the Holocaust to take.

Hi Sena, Hi All,

The way I see it, there are two major thinking errors involved in this question regarding "the problem of Evil."  The first thinking error has to do with an understanding of the nature of God and the second thinking error has to do with who is actually responsible for permitting the Holocaust to occur.


Regarding the first thinking error, I would say that it is true that an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent or "good" God, would not have permitted the Holocaust to take place. Thus, since the Holocaust did take place, then either God isn't omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent, or perhaps our understanding of who and what God is, is all wrong. Given these 2 options, I'd vote for the latter.

Regarding the second thinking error, I would say that the real issue here is that it was humanity that "permitted" the Holocaust to occur.  And, why did we permit this? Because, as a race, we are very unevolved and unenlightened.

People don't like to face the fact, it was actually humanity that permitted the Holocaust to occur. They also don't like to face the fact that as a race, we are very unevolved and unenlightened.  As a race, it is so much easier just to shirk this responsibility and blame the Holocaust on God.

To see why I say that we are very unevolved and unenlightened, consider this. Imagine for a moment what the world would be like if the entire human race was highly evolved and enlightened, such as Christ, Buddha or Krishna. Do you think that such an evolved humanity would ever "permit" an event such as the Holocaust to occur?

I don't. And the fact that we did allow it to occur indicates that, as a race, we are not very evolved and enlightened. 

This, I think is the real issue here.  Any thoughts?

I have never understood the idea of a "good god", who would prevent any human atrocity, genocide etc for several reasons.

1. An over bearing parent-God who steps in and takes over for humanity, making choices for them, or negating their choices is a violation of Free Will.
As we live in a universe of free will, we are free to make choices and experience the consequences of our actions -both good and bad - there really is no other way, it's a key element to this system of reality we live in. To change that principle of free will would make us basically automatons, incapable of making any sort of real decisions, therefore not responsible for anything we actually do. That type of existence would be pointless in my view, as we would be perhaps no better than a computer program carrying out the code put in there by the master programmer.

2. Any human understanding of "God / All that Is" is going to be limited and finite. Human eyes, ears, intellect can perceive only limited sense material. Therefore, our mind /spirit is the place where we can have larger multimdimensional experiences, non-physical psychic events, experiences etc.
As God if formless, and beyond any human morality, the idea of good/evil good /bad, Bad Cop God, Good Cop God is totally nonsensical to anyone with a lick of intelligence.
However, the majority of earths population are dealing with mythic-magic levels of reality, and "beliefs" in God, angels, devil, divine beings and what have you.
Yes, even in this age of Scientific Reasoning (Science being another religion, and the reality filter through which we test if many ideas/beliefs are "true" in the modern world)

Enlightened or not, basic intelligence demands greater expanded life experiences.
but given how we attach ourself to various belief and value systems, (mistaking who we are for the belief along the way) instead of taking new experiences and ideas as they come, on their own terms, we instead filter our new experiences through old ideas, often as confirmation of whatever we have chosen to believe in the first place as mindlessly (and unconsciously) handed down to us by culture, our family, community, country etc.

I love the old Zen saying that Bruce Lee was fond of

"You must be shapeless, formless, like water. When you pour water in a cup, it becomes the cup. When you pour water in a bottle, it becomes the bottle. When you pour water in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can drip and it can crash. Become like water my friend."

I feel that pondering that idea, or even sitting meditating by the ocean brings us closer to a non-conceptual direct experience of God, than any of the various old world religious ideas ever can. Well, whatever experience we have is still couched in this system of symbols as Seth has stated many times.
You put God into a human body, an animal, a planet, a sun, a solar system it becomes those things, it becomes more than it is, while never being any less, nor having lost any of its "self" in the experience.

*The other thing here for human beings who are all "learning beings" is that robbed of the opportunity to experience free will, and the consequences of our actions, we lose the ability to learn from our choices and the impacts they make on ourselves and others.
An interventionist God stepping in and wiping out choices, hitting the Reset button or taking over becomes another authority figure to rebel against, Big Brother, the thought police etc. I personally believe that a loving being would not rob any of us of free will as its the primary way we learn in this system of reality, while there are always limitations to our choices, not being able to learn or have "experience", particularly experiences of great Contrast -  would make life rather pointless.

Quote from: DebBecause I believe we make our own reality, there is no other explanation, unless I am to believe in the existence of an evil force or entity.

Deb, I agree with you and disagree with Paul. When we think about personal responsibility, we need to take our previous existences into account. I think it is quite likely that I may have been a Roman Catholic priest in a previous life, who spouted anti-semitic hatred.

QuoteThere's quite a bit about Hitler in NOPR.

I searched NOPR, and find that Hitler is not mentioned by name.

Quote from: SenaI searched NOPR, and find that Hitler is not mentioned by name.

I'm sorry, my mistake, I meant Mass Events. Seth had some things to say about Hitler.
If you look at Mass Events, Session 852/53 (pages 223-228), you may find something of interest.

Deb  ;

       If we make our own reality, then how could the mass awareness be so easily manipulated?


paul  ;

       you only have to look at your own gov' manipulation of your own awareness in all of the wars in the past 40-50yrs to see how easily it has been done .

       The tonken incident that started the vietnam war

       The various manipulations in s america

       the lies about weapons of mass destruction in iraq

       the v obviously suspicious 9/11 atrocity
     
       the arming + financing of islamist groups in syria that started the uprising there

       the financing of nazis in ukraine to start that debacle

       the continual looking for a boogy man to go to war with , like russia , who were even blamed for clintons dismal downfall , i'd bet she'll also say it was them that ripped haiti off for several billions that were given to her own corrupt so called charity . I mean lets face it bernie was your only chance to stop the corruption + he well + truly got burnt by his own party .
       the corruption is absolutely obvious + blatent to most outsiders + so sad that it would be america that will start the next world war (hopefully there is'nt one) which is the only reason why trumpton was the better of your two miserable candidates .  Its not that much different over here but at least we superficially have got the money out of politics , but the bull is still the same from the same elites like the rothschilds who own your fed bank .
       
        etc , etc need i say more .   How easiily you have been fed all this bull + so have been in a state of perpetual war since the 1950's , it has been so very very easy for the military indust' complex , ie the elites to have manipulated you all . Yes you make your own reality , the reality of a populace that is ignorant as to the shennanigans of its own gov' + the greedy manip' elites .

Deb   ;

       Because I believe we make our own reality, there is no other explanation, unless I am expected to believe in the existence of an evil force or entity.

paul  ;

       Don't really know how you come to this conclusion Deb except that in part i can agree that yes indeed you as a country have allowed , out of your own ignorance + refusal to believe otherwise , a small group of assholes to indeed act as an evil force or entity unto itself , but otherwise i think your conclusion is superflous + innacurate .

Hi Sena  ;

          i think you + Deb have forgotten that i have most definately unequivically stated that there is no such a thing as evil , we have had this dicussion b4 old bean .
          Be that as it may , i am glad to see that you have taken on the idea that in some past life , you yourself as a catholic priest or otherwise abused his or her power + so have came into the mischief with the church in your present incar' + hence  your present hatred of them , which i think you will find will somewhat dissipate because of your realisation . Why do you think you spouted anti semetic hatred , i have never seen you anti or pro jews or have i missed something ?

          ATI did not allow the holo' to take place , He gave us free will , we did it to ourselves in that respect.  The jews were reincar' huns who were v cruel in a previous life .

         There is no evil , i hope you come to understand this one day , it may releive you of some of your difficulties concerning the catholic church .


Hi Batfan  ;

            totally agree with you about the free will that is given by ATI , well said .
             

Quote from: voidypaulI don't think humanity  is resposible for the holocaust , i think this is a cranky idea . If you spoke to most people alive at the time of the holo' im sure you would find that they would be appalled at the idea .

Hi voidypaul,

I didn't say that humanity was responsible for the Holocaust, I said that humanity "permitted" it to occur. There is a difference.

What I meant by this is that even as the Holocaust occurred, as a race, humanity did nothing to stop it.

The Holocaust only came to an end, as a result of the allied victory over the Germany. However, as much as we'd like to believe it, the Allies did not go to war with Germany, because of the Holocaust. Instead, the Allies (Great Britain, France, Russia and the US) went to war with Germany because: 1) Germany invaded Poland and Great Britain and France had a treaty with Poland to support Poland in a war with Germany, 2) Germany invaded Russia and 3) Germany was perceived as a major world threat by the US; however, even given that, the US only declared war on Germany after Japan (who was a Allied with Germany) attacked the US. 



In regards to your second sentence, you said, "If you spoke to most people alive at the time of the holo' im sure you would find that they would be appalled at the idea."

While I do believe that there were probably many people in the world at that time who would have been appalled by the Holocaust, I also believe that there were probably many people who wouldn't have done much to stop it; and here's why, "Eugenics" and "Pogroms".


I first came across Eugenics in a rather odd place, Appendix 1 of Michael Crichton's book, "State of Fear". Apparently during the late 19th and early 20th century, there were many people in the world who felt that there were some races, cultures, etc. that were better than or superior to others. I believe that Eugenics may have had some influence upon Adolph Hitler, given his belief in a superior German race. To learn more about Eugenics, check out the website (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics).

Now, along with Eugenics, for many centuries there have been what are called "pogroms" that were held against the Jewish people (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom).

During the 18th and 19th centuries, there were pogroms against the Jewish people in places such as Russia and the Ukraine. My personal opinion is that these pogroms against the Jewish people may have occurred because many Christians believe that it was the Jews who were responsible for the Christ's crucifixion, as described in several of the New Testament Gospels.

In the New Testament Gospels, it was the "Jewish leaders" who sent Jesus to Pilate and it was the Jews who told Pilate to crucify Jesus and set Barabbas free (never mind that Jesus himself and his disciples were also Jewish).   
Like it or not, many of the passages in the New Testament are definitely anti-Jewish in nature.




   

Now, consider that the world has had a history of Pogroms against the Jewish people, including several in Eastern European countries in the 19th century. Then, in addition to this, consider that there were many people in the world (including in the US) who believed in the idea of Eugenics in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

I believe that when Hitler came to power and blamed the Jewish people for many of Germanys problems, there were probably many people who felt this same way. Thus, when Hitler started the Holocaust, I also believe that there were also many people who rather complacent about it. 

Please understand that when I say this, in no way do I support any of these Eugenics, Pogrom or Holocaust ideas. Furthermore, it is my opinion, that these activities are the activities of an unevolved and unenlightened humanity.

Quote from: voidypaulThe jews were reincar' huns who were v cruel in a previous life .

Hi Paul,
Your quote which I have highlighted is based on the Hindu/Buddhist teaching on karma, which is rejected by Seth. I'll try to find some of his quotes.

No, I am not conscious of an anti-semitic attitude in my present incarnation. I have had friendly interaction with at least three Jewish people. What I wrote above was that I cannot deny responsibility for what I may have done in a previous incarnation. I have such a positive attitude towards Jewish people (and it is significant that I came across these three people), that I think one of the aims I chose for this incarnation must have been to experience such a positive interaction.

This is a quote from NOPR:

"[reincarnation:] The theory is a conscious-mind interpretation in linear terms. On the one hand it is highly distorted. On the other hand it is a creative interpretation, as the conscious mind plays with reality as it understands here. But in the terms used here there is no karma to be paid off as punishment unless you believe there are crimes for which you must pay.

In larger terms there is no cause and effect either, though these are root assumptions in your reality."

Regards, Sena

 Hi jbseth  ;

            i dont think that there is much difference between giving permission or officially allowing something , + being responsible for or initiating  it , in both cases there is an open + tacit agreement that the event should go forward but i'll concede that i used different terms to those that you used which may be confusing to some who do not understand english v well + i will be more careful to quote you more exactly in the future , ok .

  jbseth   ;

             What I meant by this is that even as the Holocaust occurred, as a race, humanity did nothing to stop                it.

  paul    ;

            + what i mean is that i dont think humanity as a whole had much idea of what was going on at that time              hence the shock + horror of the world when it was eventually uncovered .

jbseth   ;

           While I do believe that there were probably many people in the world at that time who would have been appalled by the Holocaust, I also believe that there were probably many people who wouldn't have done much to stop it; and here's why, "Eugenics" and "Pogroms".

  paul   ;

           dont disagree with you at all here + yes there was buchenwald camp where mengele was experimenting on jews , twins in particular , in his barbaric inhuman way which was a direct result of eugenics .

           I think that these pograms because the nation states were afraid of losing their own  sovereignty to the business class  which in itself was likened to a usurping of national power . They were right too , look at what goes on in the world today, the elites rule it + national power is a farce .

           National sovereignty must + will eveporate anyway in our future but it is how it is done that is important.
           We will also inevitably have world governance but again it is how this is established + by whom rather than allowing the elites to hijack it . There must be full equality for all in our future ,  money will be abolished + borders erased if we are to have world peace one day .  Or we will destroy ourselves , yet again .

jbseth   ;

           In the New Testament Gospels, it was the "Jewish leaders" who sent Jesus to Pilate and it was the Jews who told Pilate to crucify Jesus and set Barabbas free (never mind that Jesus himself and his disciples were also Jewish).   
Like it or not, many of the passages in the New Testament are definitely anti-Jewish in nature.


paul   ;

         but like it or not it WAS the jews who DID want to have jesus crucified + this is a fact + is not anti jewish rhetoric, it is just a fact . The jews did it because jesus was allowing gentiles into the fold so to spk , this infuriared the elite jewish priesthood .

jbseth ;

         Thus, when Hitler started the Holocaust, I also believe that there were also many people who rather complacent about it

paul   ;

           yes i agree , the bush family + ford motors were directly complicit in financing + allowing this murder to go on but have never been brought to justice for it , but who cares , they have their karma they too will suffer the consequences of their abominable greed .


jbseth  ;

          Please understand that when I say this, in no way do I support any of these Eugenics, Pogrom or Holocaust ideas. Furthermore, it is my opinion, that these activities are the activities of an unevolved and unenlightened humanity. 

  paul   ;

           yes of course .

Quote from: jbsethMy personal opinion is that these pogroms against the Jewish people may have occurred because many Christians believe that it was the Jews who were responsible for the Christ's crucifixion, as described in several of the New Testament Gospels.

jbseth, I agree with this. All false religions need an external enemy, and for Christianity it was the Jew who was made the scapegoat.

This book deals with the topic: "Reluctant Witnesses: Jews and the Christian Imagination" By Stephen R. Haynes.

http://tinyurl.com/hcnso6p

"...Christianity became a source of anti-semitism beginning in the Late Middle Ages."

 Hi Sena  ; you said ,

                        Your quote which I have highlighted is based on the Hindu/Buddhist teaching on karma, which is rejected by Seth. I'll try to find some of his quotes.


   paul   ;

            Sorry but you are wrong on this one Sena +
            no , it is not based on them , it is similar to them but it is in Sethian terms , without the idea of punishment + transmigration .  Yes this is a Sethian concept too as you will eventually find out . Karma applies to all beings in all realities on our plane . You will also find the huns/jews topic in Seths works too .

           Here is a part of a post to Chasman about the same topic , shame you missed it ,

           Seth mentions karma in the Seth Mat' , ch 11 on reinc' . I will quote ,

            ''Karma presents the opportunity for development . It enables the indiv' to enlarge understanding thru exp' , to fill in the gaps of ignorance , to do what should be done . Free will is always involved .''
             
            He also says that karma is NOT or does NOT involve punishment , as unfortunately has been distorted in most if not all of the eastern spirituality + which is what Seth is talking about in the quotes you have given , but as you will see , this is only half of the story .

            There are many more instances of Seth talking about his own karma , ie , as being born as Frank Watts so that he could learn humility . Also other instances of when others came to Jane for advice on their present family or personal relationships . As you continue your reading of the mat' i'm sure you wil get it + tho i'm not sure how many times Seth actually mentioned the word karma ,  this is what he means when he is talking about reinc' relationships , karma is  part + parcel of reincarnation .

          So i hope this puts you straight on Seth + karma which with the corrections on punishment + transmigration , IS a Sethian concept , which sadly he did not credit the hindus for but just chose to correct them which i think is a little measly on his behalf . But then he does say elsewhere that even most of his own concepts have been taught before in other cultures + these would generally be hinduism , taoism + buddhism .

            peace , paul

ps , I have just found this from Seth ;

         ES 1 sess 31

                            ' ' to kill for self protection or a natural prey on your plane does not involve , karmic consequences .
                            To kill for nothing more than convenience or to kill for the sake of killing involves rather dire consequences  on your plane  etc , etc ,,,  ''

                           I would think that rather dire consequences would involve the acceptance of being reincar' as the slain in opposition to having been the slayer in this instance .

+ from ES 8 sess 397

                              '' The murderer kills no one , yet if his intent is to do so then he must face the consequences of his intent . Crime After death is not punished . There is no crime to be punished , but between these last two statements lies a world of understanding + knowledge that must be attained .
And Punishment enters in between these last two statements as the indiv' takes the cosequences for the action + the intent .''

                           Here for the only time I believe , Seth indicates that punishment is meted out + I think it would be obvious how that punishment is to be taken on by the indiv' concerned + this I believe would be willingly or not , depending on the indiv' as some psychopaths do not nor will not accept their transgression .

paul, would you please tell us more about the jews/reincarnated cruel huns Seth comments?
I am totally unfamiliar with this.
but then, I'm unfamiliar with a lot.
another thing I wonder about is what you said about 911 being very suspect.
I don't know about that either. I guess I've heard of Truthers. but I thought that they were full of baloney.

edited: googled and read a bit about some of the things I am curious about.
I will say that I am hugely pro not killing people.
ever.
if we would could just get every human to follow one simple rule: I will not kill people, the possibilities for a better world for all humans, are astronomical.

Quote from: voidypaulbut like it or not it WAS the jews who DID want to have jesus crucified + this is a fact + is not anti jewish rhetoric, it is just a fact .

Hi Paul,

I disagree with you here and here's why.

There are many biblical historians who question much of the historical accuracy of what is written in the New Testament. For an excellent resource on this topic, check out any of the books written by Bart Ehrman; specifically his book "Jesus Interrupted". Bart is a professor at the University of North Carolina. You can also check out his blog site at: http://ehrmanblog.org/

From a biblical historical standpoint, many scholars believe that the anti-jewish rhetoric found in the New Testament came about perhaps sometime after the Roman - Jewish war of 70 BCE.

In this war, the Romans completely destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple.  As a result of this, it is believed that the Jewish religious leaders had to do all that they could to keep from losing their religion. This included removing any non-jewish influences from their synagogues. Thus, it is believed that sometime after this Roman - Jewish war, the Jewish people, began to kick the "Christians" out of their local synagogues.

This then, along with the likelihood that some of these Jewish Christians probably did not believe that they should fight the Romans during this Roman - Jewish war, no doubt created some animosity between these two groups.

Many scholars believe that this animosity is the basis for much of the anti-Jewish statements that came to be written into the New Testament.


Furthermore, some of your other comments sound pretty much like some of the conspiracy theories comments that I've seen on the internet.   Given my understanding of the Seth information, I have no reason to believe that any of the conclusions that you are drawing ("We will also inevitably have world governance"; "Or we will destroy ourselves ", etc.) are going to occur in MY reality. 

You are welcome to create and experience that reality, if you want to. I have no issues with this. However, I plan to use what I've learned from Seth to create and experience a much better reality than this for me.

Quote from: Batfan007I have never understood the idea of a "good god", who would prevent any human atrocity, genocide etc for several reasons.

Batfan: You made some very good points. Again, well said.

But the Zen saying bothers me, maybe because I misunderstand the message. It feels to me like "go with the flow" which seems mindless to me. Like those who got caught up in the Holocaust. But it also brings to mind the beginning of Richard Bach's book, Illusions/The Reluctant Messiah, where he writes a parable (in smudgy, messy handwriting on ruled paper) about a village of creatures at the bottom of a river where resisting the current was the norm, no progress made. One creature decided to let go and let the current take him where it will. The current lifted him free eventually and he was carried downstream where he was considered The Messiah. The final message was "I am no more a Messiah than you. The river delights to lift us free, only if we dare to let go. Our true work is this voyage, this adventure." There must be a balance. Seth's comment that we need to accept life on its own terms?

Quote from: voidypaulthe corruption is absolutely obvious + blatent to most outsiders

Corruption/greed/ulterior motives is absolutely obvious to most Americans as well. At least those awake enough to be paying attention. And it's not just America. Power corrupts. I have no illusions about my government (at any level), big business, religion, medicine, science or the Avon Lady. While I feel fairly ineffective since I am just a drop in the ocean, I also feel I am not easily manipulated. Maybe I'm just ignorant about that, as you said, but just about everything I've ever done in my life has been removed from what most would consider societal norms and I've always questioned authority.

Quote from: voidypaulATI did not allow the holo' to take place , He gave us free will , we did it to ourselves in that respect.

I think I missed something. Isn't that what jbseth and I said? Maybe I don't express myself clearly enough.

Quote from: voidypaulbut like it or not it WAS the jews who DID want to have jesus crucified + this is a fact

It's been a very long time since I've researched anything about this, but I SWEAR I read that it was actually the Romans that wanted to do away with (and did) JC.

Quote from: voidypaulThere are many more instances of Seth talking about his own karma , ie , as being born as Frank Watts so that he could learn humility .

So I'm getting that Seth's definition of karma is all about learning, and not about retribution for past crimes as has been the generally accepted definition. Therefore the "dire consequences" are learning and nothing about punishment. A 'walk a mile in my shoes' solution.

so much I want to say.
Deb, loved your post. made me think of so many things.
in no particular order, and also just adding in a couple things I feel like saying:
all my opinion:
- love Illusions/Adventures of a Reluctant M......one of my very most fav books ever. hugely influential in my mind.
- for comic relief, I will try to entertain you by saying:
before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes.......that way, not only will you have his shoes.....but you'll also have a mile head start to get away when he finds out that you took his shoes.........lol
- why do we glorify the servicemen and women?
why is it heroic to serve your country? I mean sometimes it is. somebody had to stop Hitler.
but, what if today, in this era, what if there was a war, and nobody showed up?
question authority? hell yeah. back when I first read Illusion/ Adventures.....in the late 70's, question authority was my middle name. how do you think I got interested in the Seth stuff!!
ok, deep breath.
things are not always black and white.
but why can't powerful nations and leaders of the nations get it?
why can't they get it, that its all about the love?
cutting people's heads off is wrong.
good guys never do that.
never.
ever.
killing people is wrong.
we're all in this together.
yes, its scary sometimes.
yes, I'm a yellow bellied something or other because I'm not into being a soldier and killing people with guns and bombs, like a real man.
when do the majority of people wake up?
serve your country. well yes, sure.
but do it by killing people in other countries.
noooooooo. bad bad bad bad..........
when does the human race grow up, evolve, wake up?
whats so funny about peace love and understanding?
whats wrong with there being a golden rule that isn't he who has the gold makes the rule.
people need to commit themselves to no more killing.
valuing human life.
all human life.
its not hard.
its actually the easy way.
we need to set an example.
start with valuing yourself.
and then extend that to all humans.
find a way to bring the best out of yourself. and then out of those around you.
insist on peaceful conflict resolution.
no guns, no bombs, no knives, no wars.
insist on diplomacy.
like breeds like.
love, kindness, respect, forgiveness breed more love kindness, respect forgiveness.
I fully understand anger.
it is a normal feeling.
but it is also ok to find constructive ways to handle destructiveness in myself and in others.
Seth's ideas about aggression were new to me, when I first read them many decades ago.
but my understanding of his thoughts about aggression are this:
power to act. and act in loving kind good ways. it is the harnessing of the love power, good energy, constructive creative energy, vitality, the life force, the light force.
its all good.
I think Seth said that every atom, every molecule is formed out of love energy.
I say there is nothing to fear, but fear itself.
and love laughs at fear. love is not afraid of fear. love is not afraid of anything.
love is joyful and rejoices to be alive and experience all the good beautiful wonderful things that we and life have to offer.
enjoy yourself.
look inside of you. get to know you. and all the awesome amazing things that you are and can do.
spread sunshine all over the place. and put on a happy face.
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you know what happiness is to you
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you feel like that's what you wanna do

Because I'm happy
Clap along if you feel like a room without a roof
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you know what happiness is to you
Because I'm happy
Clap along if you feel like that's what you wanna do.........
 

OK Chasman, I need some time to digest your post.
But let me just say, right here and now,
I like you, you're funny. 

I don't think you're the type of person to whom I'll ever have to say:
"Lighten up."

Quote from: voidypaulATI did not allow the holo' to take place , He gave us free will , we did it to ourselves in that respect.

Hi Paul,
All That Is did the holocaust to All That Is.

Seth did have something to say about the holocaust:

"Hitler preached on the great value of social action as opposed to individual action. He turned children into informers against their own parents. He behaved nationalistically, as any minor cult leader does in a smaller context. The Jews believed in martyrdom. Germany became the new Egypt, in which their people were set upon. I do not want to oversimplify here, and certainly I am nowhere justifying the cruelties the Jews encountered in Germany.

You do each create your own reality, however (intently), and en masse you create the realities of your nationalities and your countries, so at that time the Germans saw themselves as victors, and the Jews saw themselves as victims.

Both reacted as groups, rather than as individuals, generally speaking now. For all of their idealisms, both basically believed in a pessimistic view of the self. It was because Hitler was so convinced of the existence of evil in the individual psyche, that he set up all of his rules and regulations to build up and preserve "Aryan purity.""

SESSION 852, "The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events"

https://realtalkworld.com/2011/05/07/seth-on-fanaticism-part-2/

Regards, Sena

thank you Deb.
I really like you too.
I am so grateful to you for starting and maintaining this forum.
it is a really nice forum.
this is the only place where I talk to other people about Seth on a regular basis, and with no fear that they will criticize me as being crazy, gullible and naive for thinking that the Seth stuff is legitimate.
I have seen you refer to the OLC, maybe you call it. the Official Line of Consciousness?
well, the Seth material is so out there, to most people, that they reject it automatically, without even giving it a chance.
and at the same time, swear by the Bible or some other holy book.
which they've been brought up to believe is God's holy revealed word.
God spoke through the authors of these writings.
Seth is a hoax.
sad. thats just sad.
because Seth's stuff is so valuable. its so good.
well, hope for the best.
not everybody can open their minds.
but we can.
and so there's hope.
I am super optimistic about the future.
I think Seth's right people are innately good.
I think many people are lost, right now.
but, I think that they can find their way to the light.
and the light is love.
kindness, respect, forgiveness.
valuing all human life.
valuing me for me.
just as I am.
valuing you for you.
just as you are.
we are all works in progress.
copies of this sermon are available for 25 cents and a self addressed stamped envelope. tee hee

 Hi Chas ;

          sorry dont remember which book this came from , if i do i will let you know .

          Go to you tube + you will find a mine of info on 911 , some of the better ones are from the architects + pilots who have gotten together to say how crazy it is that a)  some untrained terrorists could have flown the planes as they did + b) architects who say that these towers were actually built to withstand an airliner crashing into them + that there have been no other cases of high rise towers falling down even if they have burt for many hours .
        Also , tower block 7 fell when hardly anything hit it + it contained much of the cia's classified doc's on the loss of trillions from defence budjet .
        All of the towers seemed to fall as if destroyed by demolition experts , many of whom also agree .


  Hi jbseth  ;

              yes there are always so called biblical scholars who like to make waves .

             i dont really care who started the animosity toward the jewish priesthood (not the people) they were far too arrogant .

             As i said , what was written in the bible is simply the truth , the priesthood  wanted to kill Christ because he allowed gentiles into the fold .

            Seth has said that in 150yrs or so monetary systems will be done away with + maybe b4 that all national boundaries will fall so that equality can be made a reality . you obviously havnt read enough Seth old bean .

           

  Hi Deb ,

           no i did'nt say you were ignorant Deb , i said (or meant) that the general population has been kept in ignorance by the elites + I'm glad to know you are not one of them who remains ignorant nor did I think you were .

           Also , there are some excellent sources of info concerning this topic  + many if not most are from digruntled Americans whom i respect greatly .

          But you inserted the evil bit , so i thought you had entirely misread what i had written , but we agree so it doesnt really matter   but we have to get Sena on board sometime .

         No , the romans did not want to crucify Christ they knew fully well it would make a martyr of Him .

         Seth was v reluctant to talk about karma + even v cryptic which i think was a big mistake . Yes i agree with your definition but Seth also says that the slayer will be the slain , ie , karma .  And what do you think happens to those psychopaths who rape + murder children , etc

  Hi Sena ;

             NO , humanity , or portions of it did it to itself (wish i could find the huns/jews quote)
             Ati did not do it even tho we are all portions of Him , this is a different thing entirely . If you look at your own quotes , where does it even suggest that ATI did it to Himself ?

           peace to all , paul

Quote from: voidypaulYes i agree with your definition but Seth also says that the slayer will be the slain , ie , karma .

Paul, I am not sure whether Seth said exactly that "the slayer will be the slain". These are quotes I found:

"I believe too thoroughly that we create our own reality, for one thing -- an unpopular belief where violence is concerned -- but I'm convinced that the victim-to-be picks out the assailant with as much skill and craft as the murderer seeks his victim, and until we learn much more about both, we'll get nowhere battling crime. I'm not justifying murder by any means, but I'm saying that the victim wants to be murdered -- perhaps to be punished, if not by a vengeful god then by one of his fellows, and that a would-be murderer can switch in a minute and become the victim instead; and that the slayer wants to be slain."

Roberts, Jane (1976). Psychic Politics: An Aspect Psychology Book, p.205

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jane_Roberts

"...The third personality of Christ will indeed be known as a great psychic, for it is he that will teach humanity to use those inner senses that alone make true spirituality possible. Slayers and victims will change roles as reincarnational memories rise to the surface of consciousness. Through the development of these abilities, the sacredness of all life will be intimately recognised and appreciated."

Session 586, 1971 July 24

http://mondus.org/mondus/s09/sessions/Seth-Roberts.html

I think what comes across is that Seth's idea of karma is a complex one, and not simply "an eye for an eye". Reincarnational memories rising to the surface is what he has emphasized.

Quote from: voidypaulNO , humanity , or portions of it did it to itself (wish i could find the huns/jews quote)

@voidypaul

TES1 Session 32 March 4, 1964:

"The same personalities are not always reborn for example in the same race. It is true that your history shows a continuity of Jewish persecutions, that is persecutions of Jews. The fact is that many personalities who have been famous in many eras have also been proud, brilliant and cruel, and have belittled and persecuted those they considered beneath them.

"These personalities, often talented in many directions and often with past experiences of wealth and power, choose to be born as Jews of their own volition, and this is a karmic compensation, not in any sense punishment but a needed adjustment on the part of the personalities involved.

"The horrible misdeeds committed upon the Jews by the Germans were certainly not asked for specifically. However large numbers of those Jews were Huns of a very cruel variety in a past experience.

"The Germans of that particular generation were not revenging past misdeeds. Revenge has no place in this discussion. In one sense there is no excuse for what occurred. The Jewish people have always displayed great financial abilities, these being natural remnants of knowledge of wealth, as in previous lives many of them had positions of power which they misused.

"You generation as a whole had to learn the importance of thought and responsibility. You had to learn that basically to hate is to kill. Had the hatred not existed in the Germans, it could not have been channeled as it was against the Jews. Free will operated here as always."

Quote from: voidypaulyes there are always so called biblical scholars who like to make waves .
             i dont really care who started the animosity toward the jewish priesthood (not the people) they were far too arrogant .
             As i said , what was written in the bible is simply the truth , the priesthood  wanted to kill Christ because he allowed gentiles into the fold .
            Seth has said that in 150yrs or so monetary systems will be done away with + maybe b4 that all national boundaries will fall so that equality can be made a reality . you obviously havnt read enough Seth old bean .

Hi voidypaul,

I think I must be missing something here. You appear to be fairly well read in the Seth information. However, in some of your comments, you definitely give me the impression that you don't really comprehend some of Seth's ideas. Perhaps its because you just don't believe in some of them.

As an example of what I'm referring to here, consider your statement above where you said, "As i said , what was written in the bible is simply the truth , the priesthood  wanted to kill Christ because he allowed gentiles into the fold".

You make this statement, in such a way that you come across as somehow knowing the "truth" of what actually occurred. Furthermore, you also come across as indicating that there is no other possible truth that could have occurred. You seem to be indicating that there is only one probable reality that existed in the past. 

In find this to be rather odd, given that Seth talks extensively about both the existence of infinite probable realities and how we each create our own reality.

Given this this, I'm not sure how or why you make such statements. Could you explain this please?


 

 Hi jbseth,

            Yes indeed you are missing something .
       
          a)  It is more than obvious that Christ was reviled by the jewish priesthood (even as they do today , + they are still waiting for that origonal coming ) + that they wanted rid of Him because of the embarassment + humiliation He caused them when He brought non jews into the fold + taught them jewish law etc . He also went into the temple + trashed it because it was a greedy money makers who were selling spiritual favours just as is done today by so many religions + 'private' so called spiritualists like Joe Dispenza whom Deb likes so much but who charges thru the roof for his seminars ,  which are based on nothing more than his general understanding of quantum physics which he likes to dress up with some reasonable smattering of spirituality + some out + out bull about the void which he in fact has no idea of at all . He has fabricated a very seemingly expansive view of reality but it is only from what he has read + i doubt very much if any of it is from his own personal exp' however much he likes to dress it up nor how convincing he may be to others who are new to this field . But he is one of many + maybe they do help to lead folks beyond the mundane reality but they are not anywhere near enlightened nor have much of an expansive personal experience + i would love to get him/them in a private room somewhere safe with a few good + powerful acid trips + then 'see' what it is they do or dont know .   Sorry Deb , hope you dont hate me for this angry diatribe .  But i would most certainly challenge any of these new-age dippy hippy prophets to a 'trip' into the void or probabilities or wherever they think it is they have spiritual access to .

         b)  they would have liked to have killed Paul too , similarly because he was not a jew + was preaching the word to all who would listen . He even had to leave the so called holy land because of it .

         C)  it is more than obvious from most accounts of this period that this persecution by the jewish priesthood is true . That you like to dispute it is maybe because just havnt read much about that period + would even be in favour of one of those so called scholars you like to quote who  believe that Christ himself was a myth , if it wasnt in the Seth material you have read of course .

         You may find it odd that only one probability becomes the actual physical reality in this world , but if you are so expanded + have your actual reality in inf' probabilities at once + that they all are real + equal to you then i must assume  you are an enlightened being who can materialise in any one of these at will + show those around you the reality of such expansions + other alternate realities that similarly exist .  Otherwise on our level only one reality or probability is accepted as real at one time , we are not as yet cosmic beings tho of course from your argument you may well be or think that you are .  Yes of course all probabilities exist at once but they are only accepted in a singular form in each of the seperate realities in which they become that dominant reality + the inf' other prob' realities become just that , probabilities that did not occur . To me you mix up the cosmic reality of all simultaneous prob's with the indivdual realities in which any one of these prob's becomes manifest .

         Also i must say that i only think that this topic of Christs fight against the corrupt jewish priesthood , that is true + pretty much undisputed by all scholars , does not apply to the whole content of the mostly corrupted bible . Also the torah is a vastly corrupted piece of work that was origonally handed down by the speakers that Seth spks of + much of which was 1st known in the sumerian culture so is not even of jewish origin , if you know your history . The jewsish priesthood were as corrupted as any of the religious groups that have been or are in existence today .

           peace , paul

  Hi Deb  ,

            thanks for the quotes + the clarification about the huns in particular + also about the jews money making abilities + unfortunate manipulations which got them into trouble in so many countries but which is something of a taboo subject in light of the holocaust . But which manipulations were then manipulated by hitler so as to channel the hatred against the jews , just as some of the elites in the world today try to manipulate + channel hatred against the russians , which i am glad you are aware of + hopefully most others on this site .
           
            Sorry to hack into Joe as i have done but i stand by what i say + also i want to add that if he or any other of these spiritual folks were to give dipensation to the poor then i would not be so heavy on them , like 20% of their ticket sales at a minimum cost would do it for me (not the £3-£400 + more he was charging for 2-3 days in london, without board etc)  And yes i would love to take a 'trip' with some of these folks but seeing that this will never happen i will have to wait to do my own awakening thing which unfotunately takes up so much time + energy + that i wish i could share with you as i do honestly see you as a no;1 honest + well intentioned participant of the beautiful side of humanity .If i 'make it' to dreaming/waking dual awareness i will beam you some lucid dreams .

          peace + some long distance spiritual hugs to sooth some of the feathers i have prob' ruffled , paul

Hi Sena ,

    sorry must go out right now but will reply this pm .

       more peace , paul

Quote from: voidypaulIt is more than obvious that Christ was reviled by the jewish priesthood

Paul, that is not obvious at all. The only historical record of Christ and the Jews is in the books of Flavius Josephus, and these were "doctored" by the Christian Church, and by old boy Eusebius in particular:

"Despite the best wishes of sincere believers and the erroneous claims of truculent apologists, the Testimonium Flavianum has been demonstrated continually over the centuries to be a forgery, likely interpolated by Catholic Church historian Eusebius in the fourth century. "

http://www.truthbeknown.com/josephus.htm

"Evidence of later editing/doctoring of Josephus's works"

"Carrier, R (2012) Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200.
the Journal of Early Christian Studies 20:4,
pp489-514.
Abstract: Analysis of the evidence from the works of Origen, Eusebius, and Hegesippus concludes that the reference to "Christ" in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200 is probably an accidental interpolation or scribal emendation and that the passage was never originally about Christ or Christians."

http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1016&p=21390

Quotethey would have liked to have killed Paul too , similarly because he was not a jew + was preaching the word to all who would listen .

Was that a typing error when you wrote that Paul was not a Jew?

"Paul took advantage of his status as both a Jew and a Roman citizen to minister to both Jewish and Roman audiences."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle

"Paul answered, "I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no ordinary city. Please let me speak to the people."" (Acts 21:39)

http://biblehub.com/acts/21-39.htm

Quote from: voidypaulSorry to hack into Joe as i have done but i stand by what i say + also i want to add that if he or any other of these spiritual folks were to give dipensation to the poor then i would not be so heavy on them , like 20% of their ticket sales at a minimum cost would do it for me

No worries, you can hack as much as you'd like, we all have our own opinions and perspectives. I welcome others' take on things, there is always the chance I'll learn something that I've been blind to. He HAS priced himself out of my range, but I've gotten what I need. I knew Joe back in the day, his first workshop only had about 25 of us and it was affordable and he was very approachable. He seems to have sold his soul to his management company over the past few years, although his workshop rates are no different than all the other gurus, speakers, channelers and psychics out there. Actually, for the amount of time he spends with us, it comes down to about $13/hour. It has always seemed ironic to me that all of these 'spiritual guides' charge so much when they profess to only want to help others. Maybe they think the poor don't need guidance, they're already spiritually evolved and have chosen a life of lack to prove their withdrawal from materialism.

He does have a couple of charities, and I just learned about this about his GiveToGive Scholarship Program: "Your donation to the Give to Give Scholarship Program will benefit an applicant who, due to health challenges, is unable to attend one of Dr. Joe Dispenza's workshops. Scholarships help cover the cost of the workshop. To donate simply click on the Donation button below. Thank you!" Honestly, he doesn't need anyone to donate, he should be able to cover the cost himself. And it would a tax deduction for him.

Quote from: voidypaulI dont have to so called know the truth as you say to understand that the weight of evidence is in favour of the jews hating Christ (+ paul) because He was all inclusive + not just for elevating the elite priesthood + that they would have killed them both if they could .

With all this talk of Jesus, has anyone as of yet mentioned that he wasn't even crucified, according to Seth?

All that Seth mentioned (at least from what I've read so far, which is not that much considering how many books there are), is that the Jews wanted Jesus to be crucified to fulfill their prophecies (nothing like forcing history, huh?). But I have not studied judeo christian history and wouldn't know what to believe even if I did. Truthfully at this point it doesn't matter to me, it's too long ago and record keeping, especially at the time, was non-existent and history has been rewritten over and over again to suit ulterior motives. This is probably the extent of what I have to say about this. Anyway, From Seth Speaks, Session 591:

Christ, the historical Christ, was not crucified...
He had no intention of dying in that manner; but others felt that to fulfill the prophecies in all ways, a crucifixion was a necessity.
Christ did not take part in it. (pause) There was a conspiracy in which Judas played a role, an attempt to make a martyr out of Christ. The man chosen was drugged—hence the necessity of helping him carry the cross (see Luke 23)—and he was told that he was the Christ.
He believed that he was. He was one of those deluded, but he also himself believed that HE, not the historical Christ, was to fulfill the prophecies.
Mary came because she was full of sorrow for the man who believed he was her son. Out of compassion she was present. The group responsible wanted it to appear that one particular portion of the Jews had crucified Christ, and never dreamed that the whole Jewish people would be 'blamed.'

I can go on with this quote, adding more about Mary Magdalene, Peter, Judas, if anyone is interested.

Here are more quotes, taken from the sethtalks web site search engine:

Mass Events, Chapter 4: Session 829, March 22, 1978     
• (Seth has always maintained that Christ wasn't crucified to begin with — indeed, he told us in the same private session that "... in the facts of history, there was no crucifixion, resurrection, or ascension. [...] In the terms of the biblical drama (underlined), however, Christ was crucified.")
• Again, Christ was not crucified.

• Since Christ was presumably crucified around A.D. 30, this means that some 35–40 years passed before the advent of Mark's account.

The Magical Approach, Session 11
Now: Christ was not crucified — therefore he did not resurrect, coming out of the tomb, nor did he then ascend into heaven. In the terms of the biblical drama (underlined), however, Christ was crucified.

Personal Reality, Session 674
As I mentioned in Seth Speaks, the Christ entity was too great to be contained in any one man, or for that matter in any one time, so the man you think of as Christ was not crucified (See chapters Twenty-one and Twenty-two of Seth Speaks.)
The man who was crucified knew this beyond all doubt, and he sacrificed nothing.
("In Seth Speaks you said that Judas arranged for a substitute to be crucified in place of Christ himself —")

Seth Speaks, Appendix: Session 594
Christ became the Crucified, Judas became the betrayer, though Christ was not crucified and Judas did not betray him.

Seth Speaks, Session 588
Christ was crucified near Jerusalem at the order of Pontius Pilate; Herod had John beheaded; and Paul was beheaded near Rome during the reign of Nero.

Hi Sena ,

           great quotes again Sena , you certainly do pick them out .

           Yes you may be right perhaps Seth did not put it in such terms ( "the slayer will be the slain") i will have to get my books out again but perhaps it was the next quote you gave ''Slayers and victims will change roles as reincarnational memories rise to the surface of consciousness'' that i was thinking of + which to me does suggest that the slayer will become the slain but maybe i read too much into this or am oversimplifying a much more complex issue . For instance what becomes of the psychopath that rapes , tortures + murders a small child , will he then be reborn as a child that goes thru such unspeakable horrors ?  It is also something of a mystery to me as to what happens to this psyco' in the afterlife . Seth spoke of the afterlife in most positive terms when he described those conditions that will be met by most who have led fairly natural lives but i dont remember him saying anything about what happens to the psyco's whom he has described as being born too soon after their deaths + not having a full set of mental genes which makes them feel disconnected + alienated from the rest of humanity + so out of touch with their feelings that they are able to do such horrible things to others . again i must go back + make certain of this .    Perhaps they are caught up in the mid plane which he describes for his crusty malba (toast) in which she was neither fully on the or in the afterlife plane but learning at or in a mid plane which if i remember correctly was rather a more personal area similar to the dreaming reality .
          I also remember when i was once in an OOB state + for some reason had 'run into' an area of cons' that was quite hellish in that it seemed to be inhabited by personalities that were incredibly violent + destructive to themselves + others , it was v frightening initially as i felt set upon by many of them as if they wanted to do rather nasty things to me . It took a moment for me to regain my equilibrium but when i did these personalities just seemed to pass right thru me without causing any harm at all + in fact it seemed to confuse them that they could not do me any harm +  they eventually seemed to become transformed in some way so as to appear to become inquisitive as to why i was there + where i had come from + even if i would be able to help them out of area they were in + the foul predicament they had become obsessed with .          It sort of reminded me of the area of cons'  Seth described that the most depressive of personalities seem to gather , still unable to overcome the worst fears of the sad + confusing lives they had led .   Again i will have to reread the passages to make certain of what i say but it was something along those lines .          Also , in the afterlife situations for most it is quite obvious that folks are v happy about their condition + accepting of the lessons that they will learn + of course imbuded with a feeling of a great supportiveness + even happiness + are quite relaxed + able to enjoy themselves untill the time of choosing , when they may become reborn or go on into other 'greater' areas of existence . And there do not seem to be any threatening personalities here whatsoever , a sort of protected area .

     So for me , as i have come to understand these things there are areas wherein the personalities are seperated according to their psychological makeup + express themselves accordingly . i do not mean to say that these are entirely closed off areas as i do believe that some souls visit them + try to teach in each one according to the neccesities of the level or area in which those personalities reside for the time being + untill they learn to move on .      Perhaps this is just the strangeness of my own freaky little mind but my experience is what it is + for me i find it acceptible that such diverse areas exist .   Such is the life of an oddity like me .

    Again when i say that the slayer will become the slain , i do not necissarily mean that the slain will become the slayer as they may by then have gone beyond such necssities + would not wish to ever do another such harm . But there are also those whom Seth has said are the vengeful type who tie themselves thru many lives to those who have done them or their loved ones great harm + in fact harm themselves by such actions untill they one day overcome + find forgiveness + love to be the greater more expansive way of being ,   so yes indeed it is a most complex issue
         
    And yes i prattle on again , so off i go +

      peace , paul

   ps , about the whole Christ/paul thing , i am happy to leave as it is because of the confusion that can arise + because when the Christ returns all of this will be put to rest anyway + it has created such schizms that it would be foolish of me to encourage more of it .   Im just a very naughty boy sometimes so forgive me all of you + i will let it rest at that , unless someone wants to dig it all up again + im feeling rather too salty to let it go , as i am trying to give up smoking + can be quite intemperate at times .

    more peace , yeah man , thats much better

   Oh Deb ,
            sorry i thought it was a given that Christ was not crucified according to Seth , even tho i have ranted on about the wish of the priesthood to do so , but as Seth has also said , another person (who was somewhat deluded) was chosen to take on the role which he did willingly because he was a bit cranky .
            There is apparently a 'lost' gospel of judas in which he relates the agreement he had with jesus to give up this someone else so that in fact judas was the one most trusted by jesus to do this  but that the other disciples did not know of this  . Even the muslims say it was not jesus on the cross .

            I will reply to the rest of your post asap but the morphine is kicking in + its quite late so nite nite + manyana my dear little busy bee .

Hi voidypaul,

I think we keep miscommunicating. Let's try this again.

Given what I know about New Testament historical scholarship, I don't actually believe that there is anyone alive today who either knows or even can know what actually took place at the time of Jesus.
Perhaps Seth knows, but beyond him, I'm doubtful that anyone else does.

As Seth says and as many historical scholars agree, there are many discrepancies in the New Testament.  Furthermore, outside of the New Testament and the writings of Josephus, there really aren't that many other documents that were written about Jesus during the first 70 years of so, after his death.

In reply # 36 above, you stated the following, "As i said, what was written in the bible is simply the truth, the priesthood wanted to kill Christ because he allowed gentiles into the fold".

What is the source of your belief that this statement is true?

Quote from: DebThe man chosen was drugged—hence the necessity of helping him carry the cross (see Luke 23)—and he was told that he was the Christ.

Deb, thanks for this quote. I can agree with Seth 100% here. If Jesus Christ was an enlightened, powerful being, it would be unimaginable that he allowed himself to be crucified. I cannot believe that All That Is would require a blood sacrifice, which is the nonsensical Christian idea.

Quote from: voidypaulFor instance what becomes of the psychopath that rapes , tortures + murders a small child , will he then be reborn as a child that goes thru such unspeakable horrors ?

Hi Paul,
The psychopath is turned into compost. I am content to think that we have a limited understanding of the rebirth/karma process, and would like to leave it like that. It is better to have wholesome thoughts and to create a wholesome reality.

QuoteIt took a moment for me to regain my equilibrium but when i did these personalities just seemed to pass right thru me without causing any harm at all + in fact it seemed to confuse them that they could not do me any harm +

Thanks for sharing this experience with us. It seems to be consistent with Seth's teaching that hell and demons are merely creations of the mind. I used to have rather frightening dreams, but since starting to read the Seth books, my dreams are now rarely frightening and generally interesting.

Hi Deb ,

          Joe is just another greedy piggy who sells his wares without thinking of the poor which is in direct contradiction to spiritual values as far as i am concerned .
          of course he will be approachable , he wants your money + the same goes for all the other so called  gurus, speakers, channelers and psychics who do the same .  But there are some who do not charge the poor or anyone + just rely on donations from those that can affford it , as it should be , more or less .
          Did Jane charge for her class sessions , i dont think so .

          Yes all these rip off merchants have so called charities , which are just a tax scam + which gives them the pretense of doing good.

          "Your donation to the Give to Give Scholarship Program will benefit an applicant who, due to health challenges, is unable to attend one of Dr. Joe Dispenza's workshops. Scholarships help cover the cost of the workshop. To donate simply click on the Donation button below. Thank you!

          So this mangy dog wont even help the sick + infirmed unless paid for by someone else . He sinks ever lower in my estimation .

          ''The group responsible wanted it to appear that one particular portion of the Jews had crucified Christ, and never dreamed that the whole Jewish people would be 'blamed.''

            This quote from Seth , to me , directly infers that it was the priesthood whom they wanted to blame (not the brewers or bakers or candlestick makers) because of their condemnation of Christ/jesus as He did not exclusively come to elevate the jews , but to be the saviour for all of mankind + a more peaceful god  . 

           Otherwise why would some jews (+ gentiles i suppose but definately not romans) want to blame any other jews at all ?   Christ/jesus f'ckd up their temple + railed against the priesthood (as He will again) + taught the gentiles + they hated Him for it , but as Seth said , they did not realise that all the jews would be would be blamed forevermore , ooopps .

        peace , or someting like that , paul

Hi Sena ,

           in your reply to Deb i think you forget to mention that the crucifiction was as great an event as would be the appearence of a new planet etc etc (from Seth). 

           No jesus was not the sort of fool who would sacrifice himself in such a way (but i would also like to know why you think that self sacrifice is a reality in our or any system at all + where you think its origins are from + if it is reflected in the Seth material at all) for me there is a legitimate self sacrifice + a deluded self sacrifice .

          I have mentioned b4 about Seths quote above (i think it was in SS) + that it was a gift from the dreaming reality to ours + so was not just some ordinary f'cd up occurrence that happened back then . So many people , even sethians choose to ignore the enormity + complexity of this event + which Seth clearly pays tribute to . But i wont tow the party line so to spk + i see the crucifixion as an event that was a main contributor in changing the course of human history for the good + i think it should be recognised as such , even more so than the reason of blood sacrifice that you give (+ i agree) but it is ignored + should not be .

also from you ;

          The psychopath is turned into compost. I am content to think that we have a limited understanding of the rebirth/karma process, and would like to leave it like that. It is better to have wholesome thoughts and to create a wholesome reality


paul    ;

          no the psychopath is not turned to compost , this is in direct contradiction to Seths teachings .
          i am happy enuf to think that you may have a limited understanding of the rebirth/karma process but please do not project that upon me or anyone else , ta . 
         If you are afraid of so called unwholesome thoughts , then that is your problem + again it not a sethian teaching to avoid such thinking but to allow such thoughts + feelings to flow thru one + to naturally change into something more constructive . Seth teaches us not to repress any thoughts or feelings .



Sena   ;

          Thanks for sharing this experience with us. It seems to be consistent with Seth's teaching that hell and demons are merely creations of the mind. I used to have rather frightening dreams, but since starting to read the Seth books, my dreams are now rarely frightening and generally interesting


  paul   ;

          i think you have the wrong end of the stick here Sena . When i likened my exp' to the mid plane , i meant exactly that + not that my exp' was simply some sort of fabrication of the mind . I meant that literally i was OOB which means that i was on another plane of existence altogether or between planes (on a mid plane) + i hoped that i made it quite clear that this was as much a reality as is the mid plane of malba toast + was or is a kind of holding plane in which personalities who cannot as yet be trusted to mix with souls of a kindly compassionate nature ie most 'normal' folks , are kept or held in abeyance until more advanced souls can + will enter into such a plane to help these distorted + disressed souls ,  who were maniacal in their lives on earth .

         Again , this mid plane is or would be much like the mid plane in which severe depressants find themselves + which Seth has also described somewhere in his works + which is as much a reality as as the mid plane of malba toast . This was not a halucination it was a legitimate OOB exp' .   The reality of such mid planes makes it clear to me why the 'normal' afterlife plane is such a safe place , as it is not disturbed nor inhabited by these sad + deranged personalities .     It can be likened to a hellish region but this is far too simplistic an explanation , nor is it forever but only until these distorted souls can be re-educated until they can return to incarnation on the phys' level .

         Do you understand what i am saying + the reasons for this midplane's existence ?  Im afraid your explanation that the psychopath is turned into compost just wont cut it as far as Seths teachings are concerned .

        I am very happy that you have more peaceful dreams + would'nt be surprised if the source of your nightmares was down to the teachings of the catholic church .

          peace , paul